think when we talk about biblical worldview, Christians still tend to think and I thought this way for a long time, it's what I believe. This is what Christians believe. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about what I believe or what Christians believe we're talking about What is real is real, regardless of what you believe about it, or anybody believes about it, or if you deny it totally, so we're not talking about a Christian worldview, we're talking about a reality and which view that's out there gets closest to describing it.
Hi, Friends, Welcome to Ideas have consequences, the podcasts of the disciple nations Alliance, where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. And I'm Scott Allen. I'm the privilege to be the president here at the DNA and today I'm joined by Luke Allen, Dwight Vogt, John Baltimore is in Virginia. Hi, John. And Darrow Miller Darrow, it's great to have you, especially here, I wish we could have you every week. But we've got you today. We were. We were scheduled today to
interview Brian fikkert, who is the author of when helping hurts and other books. Brian's a friend and but he called us and informed us that he is not feeling well, Brian, we wish you quick recovery from your illness, and we look forward to having you on soon. And so anyways, we we thought, you know, we just got into a really fun discussion before the podcast this morning during our team prayer time. And Dara was really excited about some things he was learning from the Bible. And, and it's one of the, to me, it's one of the really joys and the richest parts of working at the DNA is just working with friends that are like minded. And it's thinking and we just have so many fun discussions about things. And so we thought today, hey, let's, let's just pick up the discussions on the podcast, the things that we're thinking about, and the things that are on our hearts.
And the books we've been reading, and so we'll just see where it goes today. But I thought there are I would like to start with you because you came in this morning. And you really were excited about some things that you saw on your your devotion this morning. So tell us about that.
Well, one of my favorite passages in Scripture is Proverbs 2918. And I of course, I learned it. I'm an old man now. And I learned it when I was a kid from the King James Version. And it says there where there is no vision, the people perish. But he that keepeth the law. Happy is he. And I always have gone back to that verse where there is no vision the people perish. And the importance of having a vision, but it's always been on a personal level. There's so many people today and is that don't have a vision for their lives. They're just living day to day. And there was a real sense in my life, that God had a purpose for my life. And there's a vision I needed to, to find it for my life. And that was always comforting and a good thought. And I think it's part of what has put me in a certain direction in my life of always praying and asking God to show me what he wants me to do and saying, Lord, I'm willing to go anywhere and do anything for you. But this morning, I came to that, that verse in my reading. And I thought, Well, I wonder what these words mean. Because I've never done a study of the Word. So I looked up the Hebrew word for vision. And it means Revelation, a communication from God to be communicated to others. So, okay, that word vision is a little bit different than I thought. It's basically a revelation from God. Are God revealing? himself. And of course, he doesn't just reveal himself personally to us, He has revealed Himself through the scriptures. And he's revealed Himself through His works through creation. And he's revealed Himself through our being made in the image of God. So God has communicated to us, not just to us personally through the still small voice or the speaking of the Holy Spirit, but he has spoken to us about his existence and about reality, through revelation. And then it says, without the revelation that people will perish. And this word I've just normally thought of, well, you just sort of fade away you, you, you know, life doesn't go anywhere. But I looked up this word, and it's the Hebrew word that means to be out of control. perishing is being out of control. To have a mob or group that has no restraint in its activities. It implies open defiance of a known standard or authority, to be unrestrained to be lawless kind of rebellious, to be rebellious and lawless to cause disorder and promote wickedness. This is a profound word, to promote wickedness. And we do that at every turn today, there's the promotion of evil, evil is considered good and good is considered evil. We're promoting today. mutilation of children, that is evil, but it's being promoted, it's seen as a good why? Because we have no revelation that people in Western culture particularly have cut themselves off from the one who reveals from God, yes, we are proudly, atheists. We don't believe in Revelation, anything from outside the natural world. So what will this lead to? It will lead to perishing, it'll lead to more specifically being out of control, to lawlessness to disorder, to be unrestrained, whether it's personally or culturally. And this just overwhelmed me this morning, as I was diving into these two key words. And I haven't had time to look at the second part of the verse. But Happy is he who keep with the law, living within the boundaries of God's order, living within his laws and ordinances that he has established. There is where we find happiness. We don't find happiness, in license in rebellious SNESs. We think we do if I can do whatever I want to do without consequences. I'm going to be happy. No, we're not going to be happy. There are consequences for this. turning our back on God on the concept of an external revelation. And it leads ultimately, to disorder, chaos, and even the promotion of evil. Those were the thoughts that I was we're going through my mind this morning, and we started talking about them during our Monday morning, share and prayer share
and pray time. Yeah. So this was your your reading that passage in your your kind of morning reading this morning, Darrow? Yeah. You know, I guess one thing I will say is just I was touched by that you know that you're a man who gets up in the morning and opens your Bible, and you read and you're still discovering, and I just I just I love that about you, Darrow that your, your your so Darrow came in this morning and literally had a light in his eyes like, look at I discovered something new in the Bible. And he shared it with us. And I thought, Gosh, I want to be that way. You know,
I wish I could say that I read it every morning. I do not notice that. But when I do read it, there are times when I have an understanding of a passage that I've read dozens of times, yes, like this one like this. And all of a sudden the depth. Yeah, that's there. How come? I didn't see this before?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I think I know, and I'm probably all of us on this podcast are asking the question on a daily basis, what's going what's
happening? Right, exactly. Things are really falling apart. Things
are falling apart very quickly, almost every night. There's a mass murder in our country right now. What is going on here
are just the cities, the inner cities are becoming unlivable. And livable San Francisco Portland. livable? That's right. More and lawlessness, just like you said, I mean, literal lawlessness that
and even the government is lawless. In many cases, the government does not keep its own laws. That's correct. Yes. So where's all this coming from?
This is the idea of parish in that passage that you looked at?
Yes, this is the idea of perishing and as a nation, and as individuals.
Yeah, that is a new idea for me, Darrow. Because when I think of that, without vision, people perish. I, I've, I've really placed a lot of value on the need for for a vision, you know, in other words, something to live for something to, to get you up in the morning. And to kind of keep you going, you know, what, what, why am I here? What's the purpose of my life, and having some clarity on that, and having enough of that, that it motivates you, you know, at a to a pretty high level, that's, that's, that's for me, this idea of vision and how important it is. And the idea of, you know, without that you perish. I've thought a lot about that, too. And I it to me, it's it's been, I kind of think of it almost like food and water, like that kind of perishing and you don't eat if you don't drink, you're gonna die. And vision I think in some ways, is kind of like that. We it's a mission,
there's a soul ish death,
you're you die, you'd like you need it. It's a fundamental, it's kind of a basic human need, you know, that we have. And then your insight today that that vision isn't just it's not just okay. Like, I think of it. You think of William Wilberforce and his famous revelation that he got from God, you know, and it was also a vision, a calling that he got to eradicate the slave trade and to I think reform morals is the way that he put in right, like he, he was very clear about that God spoke to me, and gave me a purpose for my life. And that's what kept him going, even though it took him his whole adult life to get there, you know, but it got him up in the morning and it kept him persevering. But this is different. You're talking about something. You're talking about just revelation, not this kind of specific revelation.
Let me connect to what you just said about Wilberforce. Because you are right. Yeah. God spoke to that was a revelation. And it was it was a God's revelation of what God had him for his life, right? But it was to emancipate the slaves, right? Yes. And to bring civility to society,
right? That actually, by the way, at that time wasn't unlike our society today. It was pretty rough. It was it was pretty chaotic and falling apart.
It was very much like where the US is today. But why not just that God spoke to him personally. But he understood from God's revelation that human beings were we're significant that all men are created equal. Yes. There's no place for slavery. Yes. He understood that from the scriptures from the revelation.
Yes. And you even that movie Amazing Grace captures it really powerfully when he's standing on the slave ship and he has those lawmakers come drifting by on the Thames River and he wants them to smell the death and, you know, experience the horror of slavery and it has that famous line where he says, These are men you know, have I not created them in the image of God? Right. You know, that's that. That's that revelations. Yeah, that revelation, right. Yeah.
Because he had that revelation. Now he could have this hurt personal revelation. It's good that Oh, something is out of whack here. There is a lawlessness going on a rebellion against God's order going on. And God spoke to him and called him to deal with that.
Yeah, yeah. So you're speaking more to that former one that that we have God's revelation in the scriptures, oz Guinness, we call it, you know, the, the, what does he call it the primary? What does he call the primary and the secondary call, I'm getting this wrong, but it's from his book, The calling, and there's the calling to come follow me. In other words, to live in the general revelation to live in the truth. And to push into that. And then some people not all, he says, have that other calling, eradicate the slave trade, or I think dare youth had this in your own life, you know, with regards to poverty, and to give your life on behalf of the poor was very clear calling to you personally.
Yeah, I, I resonate with what you're saying to Darrow. I, when I hear revelation, I think, where there is no Revelation where there is no clear understanding of God's purposes for all of life, or myself, for you for creation, for everything, when we lose that clarity, we will die. And it's a slow death. And it started in Genesis three. And now it's on a rapid, rapid descent,
like an avalanche coming down the hill. And if
you can't see the way God designed life to be and clearly see that as a revelation, your your, your loss.
Yeah, Dwayne.
I think that's where I was pointing back to where Adam and Eve, were kicked out of the garden, they said, you will surely die, you will surely perish. Well, they didn't physically die that day. But they'd be they lost her on the path, they were on the path, and they could no longer see as clearly as they could. two chapters earlier, they were now confused and blinded, they didn't know who they were, didn't know who they were, where they were they or they'd lost the revelation that actually had it and they law
and things were falling apart. Right. And because of that all chaos was coming. You know, there's murder, there's chaos. There's this order, you know,
yeah, God had to destroy the world of the flood. He got so bad,
but this has been a revelation came. I mean, this is where then you know, God came and he spoke right, you know, to Abraham, and then he spoke to the people of Israel and you know, spoke the law and, and that's what began to create a new order in the midst of that chaos. Yeah, go ahead. Darrow?
Well, I was going to say, God's revelation, when he created He did not create a, an illusion. He created reality. And that reality, has a certain order to it. A metaphysical order, an order of ideas, a natural order, or physical order. There are laws of gravity. And an aesthetic order. Beauty is real. Yes, not beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Beauty is real God is beautiful. And there is an order out there. There's an ethical or moral or there's a moral order. There is a true good, there's that exists for everybody, whether you believe in it or not. Right. And there is truth with a capital T as Francis Schaeffer would say whether you believe it or not. And there is beauty and absolute concept of beauty. Because God is beautiful. He is glorious. These things are real.
Yes. So just go ahead. I just want to say one thing that's so important, Darrell, because I think when we talk about biblical worldview, Christians still tend to think and I thought this way for a long time. It's what I believe this is what Christians believe. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about what I believe or what Christians believe we're talking about what is real, it is real, regardless of what you believe about it, or anybody believes about it, or you deny it totally. So we're not talking about a Christian worldview. We're talking about a reality and which view that's out there gets closest to describing it is really, you know, a different way of saying it so
well, and this reality has been revealed by God in His creative activity. And pardon him through his and through His word, but not only through His Word, that's the point. It's not Not only through his word, it is through reality. And as Christians, we can be so inwardly focused on the spirit, we can even be so focused on the scriptures, that we'd never look at how God what God has revealed through what he has made. He has revealed Himself and something of the nature of his character, he has revealed through what he has made, the laws by which the ordinances by which the universe runs. Yes, this is part of Revelation. And we are to live within the reality of truth, beauty and goodness.
This is the general revelation that Paul speaks to in Romans chapter one, when he says that, you know, even those that don't have the law, the Bible, you know, are under or are accountable to God, it's because they have a general revelation, they have a revelation of God in creation. And this conscience as well, one
yeah, we can see that in Revelations, and Paul then says, so they are without excuse. They are without excuse, we have believed a lie the live of the lie of evolutionism of atheism. And it has blinded us to see what is really there. And Paul is saying we are without excuse.
Yeah, exactly. We we see it, it's really important for everyone to remember that we're not talking about a lack of Revelation, we are talking about the evil one blinding and causing deafness from the true revelation that is there. And that has been revealed and is revealed. And because it's because it's not there, because they're being blinded to it. It's being filled with a vacuum, a terrible vacuum of casting off restraint. Okay, so the evilness. And the result of that very clearly in this verse is perishing. In the New King James, it says it's casting off restraint. Well, people today might call that freedom. And as we've talked about many times, that's not real freedom. That's bondage. It's license seal. That's license, right? Real freedom is to do is one ought real freedom,
real freedom is to live in that reality that you're describing John. Yeah.
And in these things, and so we're seeing that there is a total chaotic situation by not seeing and hearing the reality of Revelation, and therefore responding in ways that are just inconsistent with the Word of God and weren't. And there's no societal backstop for that, like there used to be with with Christianity. And we're seeing the terrible fruits of destruction all throughout our society in this.
Well, it is, it's a rebellion against reality, as well as a rebellion against God's word. And we're seeing this blossoming globally, when you can look at a man and say, He's not a man. Are you looking at a woman and say, she's not a woman? There's no such thing as male and female. It is how you identify yourself. This is part of the chaos.
I think, you know, I I'm resonating with what you just said there. To John, about you. I was thinking of Tucker Carlson, you know, we've he's been in the news quite a bit. And he had a famous speech just at the Heritage Foundation, you know, right before he was let go at Fox News. And he talked to this very issue of chaos in our society. And he said, it's, you know, he, he said, there's a spiritual dimension behind this and you'd be blind not to see it. You know, there's a there's an act of deception. There's an act of spirit behind this. And I think everyone's kind of feeling that right now. Like, these aren't just debates that we're having. There's something else going on. There's something deeper there's a there's an active willful blindness and a spirit behind that there's Yeah, and
he's also right where he talked about that. Yeah. He talks about we call child sacrifice by a different dame. Abortion is is legal. But what is abortion? He said it in this speech. We need to call it what it is. It's child sacrifice. And he said, child sacrifice has been around for time immemorial. And that's what we're doing in our country today. Yeah. Yeah. And then he turned and said, what we're talking about gender affirming care. What is gender affirming? Care? It's mutilation.
Yeah. Of, of human
body of human bodies.
What's in what's behind both of those things? Right. This
is what that's both of those things. Right. Yeah.
I mean, it's obviously we have separated ourselves from the revelation, the vision as you were talking, but there's something more going on to
there is, well, there's a spiritual war going on us. There's an evil that is out there. But we are now promoting evil as if it were good. Yes. Yeah. And we use language to soften it to make it acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. This is what we're dealing with. Yeah.
I've got a couple of thoughts related to this discussion, Darrow. One is? Well, I want to obviously get to you know, so what do we do you how do we respond personally, and as a church as a body to this reality. But I also want to talk about, you know, we had Len and Tracy Munsell on the podcast. Gosh, was that last week? Or was it two weeks ago? I can't forget two weeks ago. Thanks, Luke. Yeah. And, you know, they had just, Barna had just done some research under the auspices of their center for, oh, help me out, goes through research, thank you. Their Center for Cultural research at Arizona Christian University. And he was looking specifically at how attitudes had changed in the church before and after the COVID crisis of the COVID pandemic. And he asked several questions before and after questions to see what changes had, what attitudes have changed in the church. And the one that really jumped off the page for me was, was this question, you have a unique God given calling or purpose for your life? Do you agree or do you disagree with that? So prior to the pandemic, 66% of evangelical Christians are kind of church going Christians said yes, that I have a unique God given calling or purpose for my life, I have a vision for my life. After the pandemic, it went from 66% to 46%. That was a 20 point drop. And he said, he said he's never seen any kind of change that rapidly in any one thing. And, you know, anyways, that really struck me like what's going on now? Especially before and after? COVID. But just in general, what's this crisis of vision in our churches so that people like, don't want to have a vision? They don't believe they have a purpose. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Yeah, what was the population again, in this study?
I don't know. Yeah, I didn't get into the details of it. I just was looking to that question there.
Who was Who were they studying? It wasn't spiritual.
Yeah. That the body? He's looking at Houston. I think it was it's evangelical Christians, and probably kind of church going evangelical Christians, you know, is
it young Christians? Or anyone?
I think it was. I don't remember what the if there was an age, you know, bracket on okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. So
yeah, no, no problem. And also to correct myself. That's the it's a cultural research center, cultural research
center. Yes, yes, I
get it. Right. I think I'm going to surmise that what happened with COVID. And that 20% Drop, could be that people had a very narrow view of vision, and they were having this proverbs 2819 view of, well, I have a specific, very narrow calling on my life. And COVID interrupted, interrupted, that it interrupted that so maybe I don't have a real vision for my life, as opposed to having a vision of God's intentions for the world, and my place and my place in it, because that's a huge vision. And I can't imagine losing 20% of that through COVID. Because if anything that magnified it, because you saw the the challenges that that we're facing our world and the need for us as believers to step into those challenges because we know reality, Darrell, yes, I can't imagine it was a lost, we should have gained 20 points not lost 20 But if you do I understand if
idealistic Christians, everything goes well when you become a Christian and my life is going to be nice. And I've got this vision of a nice life, or they just
have maybe a nice, easy life. And all the sudden
strikes,
even if they didn't, they had a narrow view of the calling. Exactly. That's all I'm saying. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people base their their vision off of, oh, when do really well in sports this year, I want to have a great career, you know, and as soon as COVID hits, all those things come crashing down. So then where's your vision? You need that, as you were saying AWS Guinnesses. To calling categories, you need the broad one still, you need that overarching vision of what it means to be a Christian and live in the revelation of that calling. Yeah.
I think of the pastor that's in prison in China in early rain pastor, the early church early, we're in church, and I'm thinking, you know, his, his calling has changed completely. But he still has one. Yes. Just now in a prison in China.
Yeah. And can we see it? Can we see as an individual when COVID hits? There's a bigger picture here, and how do I live? Anyway? Yeah. As a child,
that's what I hear you calling us to, in Your devotional this morning? Yes, that's
what I'm calling to. calling myself to.
Yeah, and all of us, by the way, that are listening to this, we're calling you to this as well, we need to be did that live in the reality of, of reality of that vision that God has revealed to us of what the real world is and, and, and help people to see it, you know, to speak out against the delusion, the lies and all that. I mean, I think that's one application. Right? We've got to be people that help people to see and seeing is vision right. I mean, to see reality,
right. Well, this again, and we've said this on this podcast before. When?
Oh, senior moment for Darrow, yeah. Okay. It has any park park. Okay.
Talks about her sitting down to play the piano. She's a concert pianist. And she's says, when I sit down to play, I enter the realm of music. How can she play the piano, the way she plays the piano? Because there is a realm of music. There is a reality of beauty. And she enters that realm.
It's it's it's her way. It's reality. It's reality.
And she seeks to play with excellence, to play things that bring glory to God.
Yes, yeah. Dara, back to vision, you know, I reflect on my own life. And I do I like what you're saying about vision about vision, as you described it, as you did the word study this morning being living in reality. But I also like it in terms of that, that secondary call that that, if you will, that specific call that's unique to you, because God's made you unique, and he's given you a certain set of gifts and skills and a certain time to live in. And he has this is Providence, right? This providential is a piece of plan for you. I know the plans I have for you, right. So God's a God that has a plan for our lives a vision to use us in his big plan. And I was nurtured on that idea from you, Darrow, I think back to my early days when I first met you many years ago, and I was going through training, and you were the trainer. And you did that powerful talk called how
senior moment?
I got out Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Darrow. Anyways, the most important I can't remember you'll remember the name of the talk, but the most important thing that's happened from the cross of Christ until His Return is your life your life. Do you remember that? What was that talk? Darrow? Yeah, yeah, it was called you used to do that every time it was.
I forget the name of Yeah. No, but it's true.
But in other words, God got you that really spoke to me like, I've got a purpose for my life. I've got it gave me vision, right. There's something that God wants me to do, you know, beyond just, you know, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow. I die. Right. But what
I'm adding and what I think we're adding today in this discussion, if you were say, a jeweler, and you made fine jewelry, and you had an accident and lost your eyesight. What does that mean? Your life is canceled? No, there is no The greater reality and what is it now? That's part of your calling. If you're blind, you could say, Hey, I love making jewelry. It's what I've done all my life, it's been part of my calling. And now I'm in an auto accident on my blind. Does my calling end? No. Because the calling is connected to the larger reality. It's connecting my personal story to his grand story.
He's got a plan and a purpose that he's working out in my
life.
And, and we could, we could touch on that story. And you've already done that. One is it's it's to create beauty, to promote goodness, to highlight truth to identify truth speak the truth. It's to rule over the all things that I've created, it's to rule over the earth has dominion,
it's to bless the nation. It's so blessed, blessed nation, I mean, going back to the change, to bring healing to the right to bring healing to the nations to to bring healing, restoration redemption neighbor. Yes.
I mean, yeah, those are all unique callings to all of us because we live them out of our uniqueness. That's right. And I do it in a different way than you do it.
And if we do it as a jeweler,
I remember the name of the talk, Darrell Occupy till I
That's right. I stop teaching that when I started teaching the transforming story.
Yeah, you shouldn't have though. That's a good one. Occupy Monday, church occupied Monday, Monday church, if you go online to disciple nations Alliance website, that was
March wrestlers until the transforming store, and
it was all about vision, like God's got a plan for your life to occupy, tell tell folks, what you meant by that Darrow occupy tell I come because I thought that was quite powerful. That that also comes from a passage of Scripture,
it's I think, Philippians I think I'd have to check where we have been given talents, or maybe it's one of the gods
what No, it's one of the it's one of the parables, you know, one of the perils,
we have been given gifts and talents. And God wants us to do something with them. And he, when Christ comes back, he's going to ask What have you done with the gifts and talents that I've given you? Yes. In other words, he's given you natural talents. He's given you spiritual gifts. He's invested in your life. And he's given cash and he expects a return on that expects a return on his capital. And that's the plan that He has for you. That's right. And he says, after he gives these gifts again, in the King James Version, Occupy till I come take these gifts, talents and abilities, and do something with them until I come back.
Matthew 2514 through 30. Thanks parable of the talents. Thank you.
So I've talked about in Luke 19. Yes. Luke 19.
Yes. Yeah.
But the thing that is interesting here, that I found out later, is the word occupy is related to the word occupation. Yeah, yes. We are called to occupy. And our occupation is part of the place where we occupy and we've reduced in our generation, occupation, and calling to a job
get earn money, so I can plan the weekend. That's right. That's, that's the extent of the vision,
right? That's the extent of the vision. This goes back to the concept of vision. Again, it's a small vision, you go to work, so you can make a paycheck. So you can go and shop at the mall. This is what life is about. No life is about occupying till Jesus Christ returns and I have been given gifts, talents and abilities to do that.
There we go. All right.
Hi, friends. Thank you for joining us today. To learn more about the training the guys are talking about right now. You can find that on our free online training course the Monday church. Let me just take a quick minute to tell you guys about this course. The church is not just a building or a Sunday morning activity. It is the body of Christ on mission in every sphere of society every day of the week. Monday church explores the greatest tool that God has given us to impact the world, our work, God intends your daily work, whether it's in a cubicle and a high rise, or if you're a stay at home mom, your work is to be for the service of man, the blessing of nations and the glory of God. Monday church provides a biblical framework for each of us to establish a meaningful integrated understanding of our life and work. Whatever your work or vocation, God calls you to a new way of living fully in His presence and for His glory. To learn more about this course, and where to sign up, head to the episode landing page, which is linked in the show notes. before resuming the episode. If you could do me a quick favor and hop on the podcast app that you're currently listening on, and leave the show a rating and review and share this episode with a friend. That would be a huge help for us as we try to reach more people with the show. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences.
Like subjects?
Well, yeah, I don't know. Are we ready to move on? I mean, I
want to keep I want to keep making this more and more practical. Yeah, keep. Go ahead. Let's keep pressing into that. What is this? What is this vision for Christians? It's to occupy? What does that look like in people's daily lives? I'm asking you, Darrow? Well, I
think before you can answer that question, you need to know what reality is. And you need to know the difference between rat reality and illusion, or delusion. And wokeness, which is around the world a day around society today, it's in the church today is a delusion. So how can we answer your question, Luke? And it's a good question. But if we're living in a world of delusion, we can't. Ideas have consequences. That's the name of this podcast. And this is where we need to go back to the fundamentals. And in this case, we're talking about today, what is reality? What is the revelation? And if we don't understand the revelation, if we let our culture to find reality, then we try to work our life out within that reality. And if the church is not moving us beyond where the culture is, we're going to be enslaved by the vision of the culture.
Yeah, and just to just to talk more into that wokeness its story that it's giving young people I see why people say they don't, they don't have a vision for their life. Because the story it's telling them is you're in one of two camps, you're in the oppressor camp, or you're in the victim camp. And if you're a victim, your vision for your life is you have to wait until those oppressors fix the issues in your life before you can go and have the vision that you want to have. Or if you're an oppressor, it says if you want to have a vision for your life, whatever you do, is going to be harming someone. So you might as well not even try anything. Or even on another
show depression.
So I look, it's pretty
depressing. I look another one though. Another story that we're hearing all the time is, I would say kind of like the Disney story of what your vision for your life should be. It's Oh, you're perfect. You just need to love yourself, you know, are the
sparkly, the Oprah vision,
the Oprah, the Oprah vision for your life? Oh, you know, you're just a sparkling Little Princess, that that's not the vision because when you look to see yourself, you figure out oh, I'm I'm a sinful person. And that's ugly. And that, you know, you perish, there is no vision there. And these are these are the counter ideas that we're facing. And we need to you know, we need to understand before we can look towards what the real vision is
just my my comment on wokeness on on kind of cultural Marxist social justice ideas that you know, that are that are dominant now, you know, is that it is a delusion, it's false, it puts forward a false understanding of reality. Yes. So you're correct on that. But Dara, where it's gonna go with that is it gives people a vision, though. In other words, I think this is part of the reason that it's become so attractive to young people. Because it tells it gives them something to live for, and to even die for, right? It says, you know, to make this society better, you've got to tear down these systems of oppression, capitalism, the United States of America, Western culture, that is something to live for. Right? You know, and they didn't have that before. Because if you're coming from a strictly materialistic worldview, then it really is vision less it's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, you die. There's nothing to live for. But But and you can't live with that. And this is my own kind of analysis on why did wokeness if you will gain so much traction and momentum in the culture and I think largely it's because of this issue of vision. People were dying for vision, young people, especially He so much so that they would go and fight for ISIS, some of them because they had a vision, again, a horrible deadly vision. But I have vision and they were dying for a vision and the vision to burn down a city. Yes. Because they're convinced that this is what's going to change things for the better, if you will,
I would say that's, there's a vision there, it's more of it's more of kind of a purpose, because a vision has to have an end result has to have something your you know, some healing at the end. wokeness is vision is just a tear down. There's there's nothing after that, that I see.
No, you're right, but it's embraced.
Yeah, as you said, it's an action arising out of anger, not out of a real vision or production, which we should tie this back to the Occupy till I come. The wokeness basically, is a zero sum game. It's occupied occupiers oppressors have things that the oppressed should have, there's not nothing about creation, there's nothing about productivity. And the Occupy till I come is also as do business till I come in the New King James. It's about multiplying. It's about creating with the gifts and the treasures that the Creator has given us. It's not about just just sharing and stealing from a zero sum pie, it is different. And that's what vision allows to have this kind of thinking and this kind of productivity, that the opposite is very sad. And it's it's also become very, very violent, and just rejecting the reality of what we are able to do and truly produce and expand.
Isn't the word for this anarchy. The violence that we're seeing whether it is a physical violence, or an emotional violence, it is anarchy. And anarchy is chaos. Anarchy, you want to tear the order down? This is the French Revolution. Yes, it's the french french revolution, tore the old order down here down the old regime to create license. So I could live however, I want to live without consequences. Yes.
But yeah, the delusion is that there is some utopian view, but it's just not clear. I mean, the Get rid of the old version is that if you can destroy everything, goodness will grow will grow. And I'll be a part of that goodness, and everything will be heaven.
Yeah, exactly. Do I well said it's not actually.
I don't think you can see it, they just have a feeling that might happen. Yeah,
they're there. They're there. They're not fallen, they're convinced that the evil in the world, right, it's not fallen, the evil in the world is because of systems and structures that people have put in place and your metal press me and if I can tear those down beauty, then everything is going to be good, happy. Yeah, everything because those systems and structures that need to be torn down now, when you get beyond that, okay, so you tear them down. Now what they don't really have any answers for that. But it's just, you know, we've got to tear them down. So but it does give them vision. That's my point. And it gives them people are negative vision, but then it comes for me, it comes back to the church, like are we giving our young people vision? And I think the answer is not no, we are not actually we're you know, again, this brings me back to the Barna Research, you know, that shows but
it's, it's because they don't understand the entire framework, which is starts goes back to Occupy till I come and you're occupying for the purpose of the kingdom of God, which is this righteous order of the world and reality, but it's the righteous ordering of reality as God made, it's the kingdom of God. So I have this little tiny role among 8 billion people that contribute pie and contribute to that reality
reality that higher doesn't get anything bigger than that. So I have
a huge purpose, but my role in it is one in 8 billion in this time in history. extremely significant extremely small, but extremely significant. Let
good God be the judge of small impact right.
Little tiny Earth 8 billion people me at this time in history. That's not a whole lot that
asks, Why are mindful
of right the reason why it's significant is because God is going to actually judge me. I'm going to stand before God someday and he's going to say, what did you do with your little tiny pick in life? You know,
because it was a tiny and pickin in here. because it's connected right, and to the kingdom of God created me for
somebody once said, white on this issue of smallness, you know, your life creates a ripple. And that ripple goes on and on forever. And I believe that Francis, I'm not trying, I'm not trying to Francis Schaeffer, I'm not trying to say, I think you can go too far down this road, right? But I bet I bet I also don't want to go the other direction and minimize my forays.
I find some clarity and have a view of my smallness, in light of a big God and His giving me a purpose that that does give me significance.
And that is wonderful. And that is wonderful.
I'm here to affirm Dwight, but God's calling your life.
8 billion of us all called to do the same thing, which is to have dominion, occupy Tilikum be healing agents on this earth, reverse the fall, whatever you want to call
it. And I do think it's also specific to the time that we're in and the place and you know, I think that is meaningful to I mean, it's not an accident. I'm a believer in God's providence. It's not an accident. There's no accidents.
Push on your question again, Luke. He's saying, let's
ask another question. Well, as you guys are talking about a minute ago, you're talking about counterfeit visions. And I was just thinking about the second part of Proverbs 2918, which is, well, the first part where there is no vision that people can cast off restraints or the the people perish, but bless it is he who keeps the law. And that's kind of hinting back to the first part is saying the vision is that you keep the law, the law is based in reality. So the vision there is to live in God's order, God's laws, moral order for which we're supposed to live and promote that to the world be representatives of that, yes. If you don't, if your vision isn't based on that, your vision is going to lead to chaos and anarchy. Yeah, that's what that's not really a question. That's more of a statement.
No, but it is. But it is the law is the order. That's God's ordinances. It's his order of things. And we when we live within that order, we are contributing to with our little lives, the coming of the Kingdom of God.
Yes, yes. So I think that's really I think that's the application for for us and those who are listening to our podcast today, it's to it's to ask yourself, what part can you play in your life, given the gifts and the calling that you have, and the relationships that you have, in bringing that order? Increasingly, into this fallen world? And I do think there isn't, to me, there's I know, this seems so dark, this kind of conversation because things are becoming more chaotic, but But to me, there's also a silver lining in that and that is this, that the darker things, the more chaotic things become more unlivable, that when people see something that works, that's good, that's beautiful, that's orderly, maybe just your family or your relationships, maybe it's in your church or whatever it is, but you've worked at that you've worked to align it with that order that law, it's so attractive, it's going to be increasingly appealing, it's going to shine quite brightly. So I think we have opportunity right now in this kind of darkening time to really shine. And, and people are going to be attracted to that light. You know, they really are because you can't live in chaos. And and and disorder. It's just unlivable. You know, you perish.
This reminded me of hovel. Vaclav Havel. Didn't he talk about walking? or living in the truth,
living in the truth? That's his famous phrase, they're living in the driven in the truth? Yes.
Well, this is what you're talking about. What you're talking about Luke, we are to live
in truth, the truth. I like that so much in that the idea of being in the truth. It's different than speak the truth. It's living in the truth
and living in the beauty and living in the goodness. This is how the Kingdom comes exactly. In the present. Yes. And this by the way, living in the reality.
This is where the church doesn't have a vision either Dara doesn't have a vision for the kingdom coming. In this world. It's all about just hey, I didn't tell him to hang on until later. Yeah, that but without that vision, no, there is this kingdom breaking in and you have a role to play in in that then you there is no vision the church doesn't have anything to say to people, young people except hang on and get people saved. Sorry,
the example than today. What does this look like today? I'm doing Luke's job now. He always says what does it look like?
To do the little things to the glory of God, whatever the little things are that you're, you're this grain of sand that God looks at. What are those little things that you do in your little life? Give me one example.
today. We have to edit this out, we will
I better get the dishes clean when I wash them. That simple. That's simple. That's simple.
What can I do to serve my wife? And my children? Simple? Yeah, because that's what I'm created to be. That's the order of the universe. God is a servant, and I am created to be a servant.
Visit, visiting this friend in the hospital had the stroke, what can I do to bring a little bit of heaven to his life? Today? What can I do that would possibly encourage
it's asking those questions to his life? Throughout the day,
right? I think too, it's it's to, to be very intentional about the lies and the delusions, and a lot of it comes through language. You know, this idea, Darrell, you call it on the transgender issue. gender affirming care, right. That's a lie. That's a lie. It's a mutilation of a human body that God made. So we have to be in addition to everything else, just mindful that we are not just drifting along with the lies and the delusions ourselves. And the language that's being used or weaponized to further at culture
is promoting evil. Yes. For a long time, we have talked about the evil of female genital mutilation. Whole organizations have grown up around the idea we need to end female genital mutilation, because it is so evil. Now we are promoting female genital mutilation. And we call it gender affirming care. We cover the evil with words. Yes. And that's where part of what we do today. Your question, Dwight, we need to speak the truth in the midst of the evil, but you get so much pushback in our culture today. Your life has canceled in some places, but are you willing to have your life canceled by speaking the truth?
I think to it your question of what what what can we do I think of John Stonestreet, our friend from the Coulson center for for Christian worldview. And he, he asks Christians, he says it's important for every Christian to have an answer to one of these three questions. And I'd like to challenge our listeners today on these the same three questions because they get to everything we're talking about today. Number one, what evil can I no longer tolerate? And I will take steps to bring it to an end. Can you answer that question? Is there an evil that you see in the world today? I just finished a book we were going to talk about it. We had time. I don't think we have time today. But this book by Yan B Park, and she's answered that question, you know, she's a refugee from North Korea. And the evil that she can no longer tolerate is the evil that's happening in North Korea, and she's given her life to ending that regime. So or we talked about Wilberforce and it was slavery. What about you what evil exists in this world and you can no longer tolerate it. Second question, what is broken in this world, that you are called that God's called you to help repair to fix? Number three, what is good, what is true? What is beautiful in this world, that you will work to, to preserve that you will work to preserve those are three kinds of very specific, very practical and specific things to get at what Scott said, and those are gonna be different answers for you Dara than they are for me. But because we have different we have different callings but what God what does God called you to do? I think, you know, I just really want to challenge people to think about that what what is it that God's called you to do? Right in addition to living in reality, this is what we're supposed to be doing this gives vision. Right? It leads towards vision. Guys, great conversation today. Any final thoughts as we wrap up? Any I always am mindful that you probably have some really brilliant thought that you haven't been able to get out but you're just waiting for the chance? Well, this is your chance to chance.
Just love being part of it. Thanks. Whew.
Thanks, John. Great to have you, Luke. Final thoughts from you or encouragement?
No, I'm really excited about this makes me passionate for what we do here at the DNA and doing our best to try to help people see that vision for understanding what God's will is for their life. Yeah, amen.
And can we ask the people who are listening today, if there was something in this conversation that you just go, oh, I had never thought of that before? Or Oh, I see something I can do in response to John stone streets questions. Send us a line, let us know. That'll be such an encouragement, not only to those of us doing the podcast, but we can pass this on to others. Yeah. Good point. Darrow.
Yeah. Yeah, we'd love to, we'd love to hear from you and get feedback from you. And I always appreciate it when people come up to me just personally and say, Hey, I listen to that podcast. And well, you know, they give me some feedback. So we'd love to hear from you. So well, great, guys. Great discussion. Derek. Thanks for sparking it with your time and God's Word this morning. I want to encourage our listeners to that too. Let's keep spreading to your Bible reading. Yeah, there we are once a year reading in the Bible, I'm sure that's not the case.
Confession not every day.
Anyways, but it's I love again, Darrell. I love that you're just so excited and your excitement for what you're learning and it can it spread to me, you know, and so it's living an active sharper than any two edged sword. Listen, thanks for listening today, everybody and for joining us in this really fun and hopefully important discussion on another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast of the disciple nations.
Hi, friends, thank you so much for listening to this around the table DNA team discussion, like Darrow just said, We love hearing from you guys. So please let us know what you learned from this discussion. And or let us know what questions this discussion evoked in you. The best way to reach us is by commenting on the episode landing page, which you'll see linked in the description below. Or you can message us on social media. We are disciple nations on Instagram, and disciple nations Alliance on Facebook. As always, you can find all of the resources we mentioned in this episode and more on the episode landing page. And again, from there you can learn about the Monday church, of course created to help you form a vision for bringing the kingdom of God into the area of life you spend the majority of your time in your work. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance to learn more about our ministry. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next week.
