Art, Artifact and Artificial Intelligence in News with Kevin Systrom
5:03PM Sep 21, 2023
Speakers:
Connie Loizos
Darrell Etherington
Henry Pickavet
Kevin Systrom
Keywords:
artifact
people
click
instagram
writers
ai
elon
links
world
article
talk
worked
interesting
happened
idea
tick tock
company
guess
iterating
thinking
Have your attention. Please welcome TechCrunch General Manager and editor in chief Connie Loizos.
That voice in griping always freaks me out a little bit. Thank you so much, man, man. Day three. We're so excited. You know, thank you all for coming these last few days. It's been such an exciting, wonderful big event. I've loved every minute of it. I hope you have to. We have heard from Kyle votes Dario amo de Lisa Jackson of Apple. It's been amazing. And we've got a lot of great speakers coming up. Right after I get out of here. We're gonna see Kevin Systrom, the co founder of Instagram who is gonna be telling us about his new company artifact. We have Gary Marcus who is a sort of pioneering voice in AI. We have Meredith Whittaker, who is the president of signal she is really forceful. I'm really excited to see her speak. She met also nicely spoke on our AI stage just a little while ago. And I'm getting to talk to Katie Han of Han Ventures we haven't had a chance to sit sit down with a couple of years. So I'm really excited about that. Anyway, we also have, of course, the last day of the battlefield, we are down to six contestants, they are awesome companies. And I'm really excited to say that half of them happened to have include a female founders, which is great. And we have an all star cast of judges joining us which we're very appreciative of Marissa Mayer, Danna, settle Mar Hershenson Mahmoud Hamid and Charles Hudson. So that's it. Let's see. No that's not it. We also have our deal our deal making room next door. If you have the right badge go over there that's been on fire. I guess deals are actually being struck there. So don't miss that. Now, I think that is actually it. So I'm going to leave. Thank you again for coming and let's welcome Darrell Etherington, our Managing Editor.
May I have your attention? Please welcome TechCrunch Managing Editor Darrell Etherington.
All right, final day of disrupt the best day the most exciting day for all of you here. As Connie mentioned, the deal flow Cafe has been poppin I went in there and someone approached me for a deal and I was like I don't have any money. So hopefully if you have money go over there. By the way, don't worry about taking any notes during the event. We've got otter, it's right there. As the word come out of my mouth, they go on that thing. They also go on the app and they go on the web so you can get access to those for free. You can see all of our past panels and all the ones today too. And you can also check the app and the signage around the building for our industry stages. We've got great program programming going on on those two, for the first time ever so many industry stages. Today, we have hardware and security. And those are going on to my right over here. We have pitch showcase breakouts and roundtables on the second floor. So check out all of that. And let's get ready for an action packed day, which starts right here. With me, I'm going to be sitting down here and joining me will be Kevin Systrom, who is co founder of Instagram of course and also co founder and CEO of artifact, a new type of news app that I've been using personally quite a bit and that has been updating at a really aggressive pace. So clearly they're not slouching over there, but we'll hear more about his plans for that and his views on AI right now. So let's welcome out Kevin Systrom.
All right, Kevin, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. You You've been to disrupt before but it's been I have many, many years. Many, many things have happened since then, I think right? So I want to talk about AI to start just because it's it's been a theme generally with the tech industry. I'm curious, where do you fall on the AI Doomer ism spectrum, are you it's coming for us? Oh, are you? No problem. Are you somewhere in between?
Maybe the answer is nuanced. So even if it was coming for us all what are you going to do about it? We make the most of it. My sense is when new technologies arise, people always look at these new technologies and say to themselves, jobs are going to go away it's gonna kill this these are the problems with it. And if you just like look back in history at every major revolution, whether it was the internet, the PC, the mobile phone, like imagine how many things have been unlocked in our lives because of those Yeah, sure. You know, jobs. have gone away. Sure. You know, classroom teaching and education has changed where you know, you used to trust that people wrote their own papers. Now they don't potentially. We just adapt. We just we find ways to adapt and then all of a sudden, you find that new jobs exist. People are super powered because of these technologies. And I think that's much more likely to happen. You know, like, I was talking to people and they're saying, oh, like illustrators are out of a job and it's like, I don't think so. I think what will happen is the really talented illustrators will learn to use these new tools, and then super produce right that's my sense. But, you know, it comes back to my first comment, which is, I don't know, even if everything's going to be terrible, you might as well put a positive spin on it.
That's true. Yeah. So I'd like does that extend to like, do you think that they will become sentient and sort of block out the sun or anything like that, or is that a possibility? Now I
so I spend most of my day programming these days. Yeah, staring at neural networks and staring at why either neural networks are working or not working, trying to train them. And whenever when someone says, you know, there's a network that's sentient, you're kind of like just like a bunch of numbers, but and then that person will respond to well, you know, we're effectively just a bunch of chemical connections. So and then that gets my mind raised. But, but generally speaking, I think we are, we're likely very far away from these Doom impending events. And we are very much in control of how we build these technologies, how we regulate them. And various smart people are in charge. So I think it's good to be asking these questions, but I think the reality is the next few years are going to be completely safe.
Yeah, right. Okay. I feel reassured. So you mentioned the use though, as I'm coding. So like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what is your day to day, what are you? As I mentioned, I think you've been really, really aggressive with the pace at which you're releasing updates for artifacts because just released your Lynx feature last week, I think. So, yeah. Tell me more about that. What do you do all day? What are you excited about and what are you building right now for?
I think the best way to answer this question is to actually say like, Why start another company? I don't have a lot of people. If you start a company gets really big. That's that's a high watermark and I mean, let's be honest, how do you surpass in Instagram that's, you know, yeah, given that it's growing constantly, it's very hard to see where anyone could ever do that. You start something because you believe there's a problem to be solved in the world. You start something because you love building. You start something because you're pained that a problem exists in the world and you need to solve it and for me there's this framework that I feel like someone in college taught me. So these three circles and the one circle is what are you passionate about? And the second circle is what's the big problem in the world? And the third circle is Will someone pay you to do it? And and I looked at these three circles and I said to myself, well, one, you know, at Instagram, I feel like I saw, you know, if the wave of AI is crashing right now, we saw the swell, and you could look out five to 10 years and say, Okay, this is gonna be a big deal. I don't know exactly how it's going to work, but specifically in social networking, how AI dictates what you see. And it's not just about who you follow. It's about what your interests are. That was really exciting to me, and I think we saw that and tick tock, absolutely. So that was the passion. What a big what's the big problem in the world? I mean, information consumption, news consumption, specifically at the peak is an enormous problem today. What's true? Why is someone sharing this? Should I believe it? Those are the types of questions we ask every single day when consuming news and by the way, is this just being produced to basically game the algorithm on something like Facebook so that it gets, you know, a lot of clicks? Or does it produce interesting, useful information for me? And then on the publisher side, I mean, you know, and obviously, you know much more about this than I do, but maybe not on the publisher side. It's an existential crisis of, you know, is it ad revenue? Is it subscription model? Hey, like, you see all this fracturing of publishers where independent publishers or writers will break off and start their own newsletter, thanks to something like substack and they're actually being successful. doing that. It's not everyone but some people are. So where do those people get discovered? How do those people get distribution? That's a big problem. And then the third circle I'm going to avoid for a while which is how do people you know, did will someone pay you to solve this? But it worked out with Instagram. So here's here's crossing my fingers. Yeah.
I mean, those are huge problems to contend with. And you're right, like we think about them a lot every day too. And I think an interesting thing you bring up there is, you know, the that a lot of time and effort and money was spent on figuring out how to game some of these algorithms like Facebook's and to some extent in her Instagrams of Alexa for news, I think but and yeah, that may be led people down a path that was not in service of dissemination of truthful information, let's say right.
Do you see this recent post by Mr. Beast, know about like whether or not like, open mouth versus closed mouth? Yes, thumbnails thumbnail formed better? Yeah. Like this is like this is the best example of optimizing for the algorithm. I mean, Mr. B is obviously very, very successful. But we're now at the level where people are questioning whether their mouth should be open or closed in a thumbnail to get distribution. So if you're doing that for for a video, Imagine you're sitting there as an independent writer at a publication and trying to make the decision do I write about this thing? Don't I write about this thing? What's the title of this thing? Of course, people are thinking about how to get distribution. Yeah, I just bring this up because it's, it's so clearly in every corner of our consumption, including YouTube.
Yeah, absolutely. So but one thing that you've done at artifact is you've sort of like said, Well, let's take that decision away from perhaps you write the writer. Not Take it away, but let's make a new decision. On top of that, like, let's change the headlines. Like bit perhaps avoid the more click baby headlines and for the worst actors, right? And if it's if it's been controversial, right, it's been met with some like, Well, why are you the ones who are able to do that right, and what's the thinking there and what's the service to readers? So
what do you say sort of kind of that criticism of you shouldn't read? Repurpose this if your purpose is to sit at this distribution layer, right? Well, for context for the people that don't fully understand the feature, go download artifacts. And, and you'll see that sometimes by the way, the large majority, large large majority of articles have no editing whatsoever. Yeah. But we kind of see ourselves as a list of links. And I think it is arbitrary what those links say if you go to tech meme, tech meme rewrites headlines for clarity to make sure that people understand what's happening and if you click through often that title is different than what you see on the page. So it's a practice that's happened forever, which is headline rewriting. Yep. For clarity. What we decided to do was two things. One is we farmed out the decision, which is if enough people mark an article as a clickbait title, if enough people then it triggers some internal logic to go off to one of these large language models. Read the description of the article and the title of the article and rewrite it and as factual way as possible. It was kind of a neat idea we had late at night when we were working on something and it worked really well. We've done that and users are enormously happy when they come across an article where the headline has been rewritten just for clarity for conciseness. The worst is to come across an article that says you know, this amazing restaurant just closed down and it's got kind of like a shady photo of the entrance you don't know where it is. And it's like, I wish someone would just tell me what restaurants so I knew if I cared to click on this thing or not. So we're trying to do is just level the playing field a bit. The other reason we do this is because we use clicks as a really important signal of what people are actually interested in. If you purely used clicks. As the main signal, what you get is, what are people interested in interested in knowing about rather than what was valuable, right? So it's important to kind of like level the playing field of titles to make sure that things aren't. Click through rate isn't isn't somehow exaggerated by a clickbait headline, which it often
is right. So like, what is going on there with incentives and how would you advise like, I think a really interesting thing that you can probably share is what you've learned about readership about users to Media and Publications, right. So we have done this, I'm including us, I'm sure we've done this before and probably still on occasion, right? Like, what should we be thinking about our audiences because that to us is signal like we want them to come and we need them to come and click on the thing and that's a reason behind doing that. Right. But what are we getting wrong about that signal that we're rewarding it in this way that is not necessarily productive or best for our audience?
I think maybe a few anecdotes. So the first is when we started to artifact, we went to all these writers and we said we'll give you stats about every one of your articles, because you don't know click through rate generally, because your stuffs being shared on Twitter and Facebook, but we'll tell you of the people that came across your article in a feed how many of them actually clicked in? And to my surprise, every single writer was like, no, no, I don't want to know because that's gonna that's going to change what I will naturally want to publish on. Yes, it's not surprising but like, you know, most of the most of the articles on on artifact that get the most click through rate, like there's a word that rhymes with Elon in the title. And that like you know, and it's like, okay, if you want to get, you know, clicks, you can, you can publish on all of villans antics and you'll get a lot of clicks, people are obsessed. It's the it's like the first modern, you know, true tech celebrity and, and that's cool, but, but I think writers want to be a bit more measured and what they cover and independent. I think that's a good thing. Sure. Absolutely. So I'm not sure there should be that feedback, right, which is, you know, and then the second thing is I've been so surprised on artifact. The writers you think would do well do okay. You know, the famous ones, the ones who do really well, you probably don't even know their names. Right. And that's one of the most exciting things about artifact right now is like I actually think there's an opportunity for more and more of these writers to be discovered as independent personalities. Because they are thoughtful because they do get the scoops because they there are like their take on a new device or a new technology is so much more interesting than maybe when editor at a very large publication things and they're able to get the distribution via artifact maybe because they weren't placed on the homepage or they didn't get the front cover of the tech section or whatever. So that's been really fascinating. It's just like what what happens if there's a meritocracy among all these writers? And what happens if you expand beyond writers to anyone who picks up I guess not a pen but a keyboard and decides to write on a substack or a medium and throw their link in links? Sorry, I'm talking a lot but the last thing I asked about was links. We decided that, okay, we have this list of publishers we try to crawl and you know, and we distribute their links and hopefully they get traffic and clicks all the nice stuff that they like. But what was failing a little bit in our feed was just this texture of the unknown. You know, this texture of like this really interesting link that you wouldn't have seen otherwise that you might get on something like Hacker News, but maybe it's not technical. Yeah. And so we watched this Links tab, which is effectively a giant bucket of content that anyone can throw stuff into and say, Hey, figure out if this is interesting. So the algorithm that I worked on basically distributes it, tests it. And if it's interesting and seems to resonate with people that distributable more and more in bubbles, that's been working really well over the last week. So this is a week old feature. But I'm really encouraged. I mean, I'm seeing new apps to download. I'm seeing interesting recipes. I'm seeing interesting GitHub repos I didn't know existed. It's very tech centric, of course, because it's personalized to me, my feed, but that has been an interesting unlock for artifact. And I'm really bullish on where that's going.
Well, that I mean, it's a little bit retro, right? Like it kind of sounds like delicious, or Digg or something like that, like from back in the early internet days, I guess dating ourselves here but
well, my sense is every great idea is is an evolution of an idea that has happened before Yeah, numerous times. You just have to modernize and update it. So you know, delicious was great. Digg was great. Many of them were either I guess, sold to other companies Yahoo included, and and their founders who had the vision went away and it just kind of sat back there nothing I mean, the number of people that told me I was crazy to start a photo sharing site. When Instagram started they're like, ah, photo sharing sites having those been done 1000 times and it's true, but what was different was okay, we were going to add creative tools. We were going to be mobile only. We're going to be focused on iPhone. So if you change enough of those bits, you can take an idea from the past. I mean, come on Tesla, like it's a car. Yes. Like change some interesting things about it that change the game and then be good at it and it works really well. And is
the change for you then is this ml and the algorithm that you've built is that basically what I think I think
the difference is ml first. So definitely using large language models and all the tech that exists now to both understand text and personalized that's one. The second is being really focused on mobile. I think links to things like YouTube's and tiktoks and Instagrams and such work really well on the platform. And And third is just like I think the craft like if, if I open up other news aggregators today, and again, I think we now consider ourselves kind of like a it's like a post news aggregator right like you're trying to go beyond just news and do other content. news aggregators. You know, there was an article about an news aggregator launching, like, like a calm tab the other day, and it's like, if you tap on it, it's like, just positive stories. And the story talked about this feature in relation to the fact that their home tab was just like murders, traffic accidents, you know, bad politics stories. And it was like, Oh, thank God, they now have this feature. And I was thinking to myself, like, or you could just produce a product that doesn't, you know, push people to terrible, awful things all the time. So my point here is I think there's a level of quality or at least a level of integrity that we're trying to shoot for editorially speaking, to make the experience much more than you know, just playing accidents and stuff that obviously draw a lot of eyeballs and clicks. But again, back to that signal of clicks. If you focus too much on it, you get, you're equating clicking with value and that's just not true. Yeah, we
all know that. Yeah. You get yourself into a lot of trouble there. But that I mean, the thing I was going to share earlier when you were talking about that is like we we have very diversities reminded that a lot of different perspectives in terms of how you like achieve success, right. And we've had people like myself, I've never ever looked at the numbers I hate look at the numbers. I look at the numbers now because that's my job and not writing as much but but then we have writers who are obsessed with their analytics, always looking at analytics, right? And you wouldn't necessarily that wouldn't result necessarily in the content that you expected might result in right, but it is. It's very personal to writers, but it's interesting to see us, like, have that and provide that but then also wrestled with like, how do we serve that to that audience in a way that is productive, rather than just getting everybody to write about Elon time which is kind of what the thing would tell you right
now. It's the biggest downside to this recommendation driven social network phase that we're in is that we tell people the rules of the game, which is if you can have a high click through rate if you can have a large long watch through rate or repeat rate on something like tick tock, you when you become rich and famous. You become Bella porch, right? Like and what happens is someone decides, ah, I know what I'll do. I'll take an old plane. I'll fly it up real high over the desert. Where hopefully no one will get hurt. I'll pretend like the engine failed. And then I'll parachute out. Meanwhile, I've recorded the entire thing with GoPros on me and on the wings and it was it was an engine failure. Right? And then I posted to YouTube because that's how I win. And like in What world are we better off because that is the outcome. It's entertaining. You know, it's almost like a Hollywood production. But is it unsafe? Yeah. Do you want to encourage people to do it? No. But again, back to the like mouth open mouth close things. I mean, we're we as technologists are responsible because we are telling people the rules of the game we're saying do these things and you win. Yeah, and sometimes you win big it's not just like oh, great. I got a few views on artifact. It's like, you know, people here love on Tiktok Yeah, it's their career. Yeah. So I, you know, feel a little bit like dated at this point. Because I've been through at least one cycle of social media with Instagram. But like, sometimes that experience that wisdom allows you to look at a system and say like, Are we are we incentivizing the right behavior? Absolutely. And I'm not saying that we've fixed this on artifact we definitely get clicks on click Beatty stuff up at the top, and we have to manage it. But it's interesting because I don't think enough leaders at these companies are focused on setting up the rules of the game to provide valuable content in the long run rather than just people jumping out of airplanes.
Well, let's talk about that. But that because like, we've talked about Elon I would love to hear your thoughts about Elon and what he's incentivizing over at x right now, and how that has come together. Do you have thoughts about that?
Um, no, it's just like, what was the I'm gonna get this wrong. At Amazon. They had something called like the Chaos Monkey that would like go around and fail systems randomly
erase meetings from something like that, right? Yeah.
I kind of wonder if Elon is doing that to Twitter. If it is he's just like, we're gonna make this thing really. What is it like anti fragile? Yes, just like if you break enough things that this thing it'll become a super beating heart and the remaining core will be hard. Yeah. But I don't know. It's like never count Elon out is like you just batting average is pretty great. So I guess we'll see. You know, would my instinct be to charge people would my instinct be to bring back a bunch of these accounts that have violated rules would my instinct be to do any of these things? No, but maybe that's why maybe that's why it'll save Twitter because all of everyone's natural instincts. Someone I really respect this guy, Ray Dalio he's an investor, you know, thinker. He makes this point which is not his point. It's just a well known point investing like to make lots of money you need to be contrarian and right. Need to take the opposite bet and be right. Starting Instagram was the opposite bet because everyone thought there were there was no room for social networks, but we were right. And, you know, I think we can all agree that many of you lawns tactics currently are contrarian. Yep. And the question is, will he be right? Right. That's the fascinating thing to watch and, and I can't tell you whether he'll be right or not. I think we just have to let the game play out. Okay.
But I mean, like, on the other side, it just seems like he's also a Semitism, like whatever. Like, what about that side of thing?
Yeah. Sorry. To be clear, I'm not talking about his personal views. I'm talking about his management style at the company laying off a bunch of people taking bets on charging for membership. I was thinking about this on the right here, actually how, you know, because I assume we wanted to talk about threads at some point, given that it was we definitely do. So I'll just go there. Like, I wonder, you know, because I assume you you'd be curious, like, do you think threads will win? Do you think Twitter or sorry, x will win? And I wonder if there's like a third outcome. She's like a very Silicon Valley way to think about this right? But um, a third outcome where it's almost like you know, how when you have you have a presidential hopeful and people tried to discourage the second you know, place presidential hopeful not to run in that party because they're worried they're going to take away votes from first cannibalize the vote. Right, exactly. Like I wonder if that happens here, where what you end up with is, you know, the original network for distribution of text and ideas is so weakened that it allows for something like threads to actually do pretty well. But actually never be as big as Twitter could have been if there was just one right. And what you end up with is this like weird fracturing of the network where it's everyone's worse off because now there are two or three or four players all trying to do the same thing. By the way, I think this is kind of true with tick tock and reels and shorts and where where the lack of network effects lack of density leads to there not being a great network for discovering ideas and real time information and whether the world is actually worse off. So this is like a very strange way to think about this, but I think what will likely end up happening is all the distraction of that competition will open up some whitespace for a brand new social network that just takes a very different view and I'm not claiming artifact. Is this interesting someone? Couple of kids in a garage will start something that just completely crushes both of those. Yes. Because everyone's so focused on competing for previous ideas in the past.
Well, you say both but I mean, it includes Mastodon or blue sky or those things too, which are all doing that dilution effect that you're telling.
Yeah. But, and I guess I'm bearish on all of these because they're rehashing of of the same idea. And I'm just, maybe I'm a little bit of an optimist here, but like, I don't believe we're out of ideas for networks that don't believe they're done iterating and evolving. And I believe there are a lot of really smart people in Silicon Valley willing to try new ideas and something is going to stick. It's just, I kind of, you know, I've got my popcorn I'm looking at, you know, all of these folks competing for what feels like almost like a, you know, a very 2016 last decade. Yeah, that's fine. But um, meanwhile, tick tock is kind of running away with the baton on short form video, and they're iterating very quickly. So I guess we'll see. But um, yeah, I think there's a third third world where all of this competition actually leads to consumers being like weirdly worse off because people are confused where to post things and find things Yeah, those were like the that IDEA requires like a certain critical bad yeah. Right. Which is like their frame. This is why at least in in consumer winners win big because there is that critical mass and then, you know, someone once told me I like hurt a little bit, but someone once told me we were like three years into Instagram. They're like, You guys could just leave now and this thing will reach a billion users. And now that wasn't mark. Come on. No, no, it was an investor. And it's not entirely true. But things do reach a certain critical mass and then they just start going that doesn't matter what features you add or you know, they just kind of take in consumer specifically
through Yeah. Because you brought on Monica, what do you think about meta and their stewardship of Instagram? What do you think about where the products gone? Where it's going?
I mean, you know, the worst thing in the world would be to wake up as a as a founder of something and the company has crushed it, it's gone to zero they've pulled the plug. How many entrepreneurs do you know where that's been the case? 10 cents, times. The fact that Instagram is still crushing it, still winning. They're iterating you know, all the decisions that they make what I have made exactly the same ones? Of course not. But does that matter? I'm proud of where they are. It's super cool. And so funny, like, I'll go to a party and people were like, Man, I love threads. Congratulations. I'm like, I've been gone since 2018. They're like, what a great thing about being fired. Right? Everyone thinks you're still worked there. Yeah. But then the problem is you're like, I swear artifact is the thing go down.
So then back to artifact. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. I would love to give you more opportunity to talk about that. But we've got links that has shown kind of like, some hint of where you were hope to expand. Right? Because you said I think repeatedly that news was just the beginning. But is that kind of your focus for the next little while or where do you think you go from here? What is asked the next later, but where do you go from here?
Are you Are you a big Lord of the Rings fan?
Sure. Yes. Yeah. You
know, like, I'm gonna get this wrong. Oh my god. I just mentioned Lord of the Rings and everyone loves Lord of the Rings here. So there's like that montage. Okay, let's go to the movie. I know now I'm really screwing myself. You're losing. I'm losing. But there's that montage where like they draw out the map. And they show you all the worlds and like where they're head. I've kind of think entrepreneurship is kind of like that where you know where you're headed. You know, there's a land out there but the maps not drawn in your way over here and your job is to connect the two. Yeah, not to know each and every step along the way and where you're navigating, but that's what life is right now. I mean, we start off and we say, that's it that's resonating with people. Let's let's double click on it and push on it and iterate on it and see where it goes. We're definitely in Product Market Fit finding world I mean, we have a lot of people who are very passionate about artifact, but it's not hundreds of millions of people. Yeah. So we need to figure out how to get to that scale. And the thing that has very clearly resonated with people is not being locked into a set of specific publishers but rather allowing people to go far beyond that and discover interesting links anywhere via artificial intelligence. And that's the bet we're making. Actually, if you think about it, there's like, I think the reason that that resonates is there's not really any version of that out there today. So we're going to see if that works. But I'm really proud of the team and I'm proud of what we've built so far. And it's it's cool. It's nice to be back back in the back in the game.
Yeah. Back bill down. So just the other question I had was then, and you teed me up nicely. You got that map, you've got the end state do you know what the end state thing looks like then when? Since you're building out the middle and that is the kind of the mystery Do you know what you want to end up with? Should everything go exactly as you want?
I think the pattern if you look at every successful company, whether they knew it or not at the beginning, every successful company started oddly specific. Whether it was with just a desktop computer, whether it was just selling books, whether it was a social network for Harvard students, oddly specific, and whether they had these grandiose visions or whether they basically were able to realize them over time actually isn't relevant. But what is consistent among every great company is that they know that in the long run, they can be much more and what they need to do is build along the path that allows them to be much more you know, if Amazon had gone deep on you know, writer tools or buying different publishers and basically focused only on books, they'd be a tiny company today, but instead they focused on logistics and infrastructure, and they thought about like, okay, we're selling books now. But what if just what if we sold things other than books, and now they are where they are. So it's a pattern in business to learn from and apply to your own startup? And that's what we're trying to do at artifact is to know that basically, distribution of content via artificial intelligence feels like the future to me. And I don't think it should be just foreign video. I don't think it should be limited to news. I don't think it should be limited to links. So what can we do what what can we do other than selling books? That's like the daily question. And it took a really long time for Amazon to get there and we'll see how long it takes artifact.
Great. Yeah, we will see. I love the product now. Thank you. Excited to see what happens. Appreciate it. Thanks very much for joining us.
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