Everybody's terrified of actually putting their head above the parapet and going for it. Welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm
your host Ryan Willard. And it's my utmost pleasure to welcome true luminary in the architectural realm. Mr. T. J. Lyons, who was renowned as the unsociable networker, and who serves as Managing Director at cube business development for TJ embodies a unique blend of strategic prowess and entrepreneurial spirit. And within Q business development, his organization, they pride themselves on their collaboration with some of the most esteemed architectural practices across the United Kingdom. They are on a mission to expedite the ascent of their partners into substantial business dialogues at the highest echelons of decision making. TJ knows no bounds. He fervently advocates for the integration of business development into the very core of architectural endeavors. Through this holistic approach, architects can not only elevate their operational margins, but also safeguard the future of their practices, thereby asserting control over their enduring legacy of their portfolios. So today's episode, very interesting, we're going to be unraveling some of the secrets to a sustainable success and the ever evolving architectural landscape. We're going to be discussing how to stop wasting time networking for networking sake, we're looking at business development needs, and why this needs to be an integral part of architectural practice. And we're really making the point of it's not bad taste, it's not time to wasting and it's certainly not desperate to be doing business development. We're gonna look at sales versus brand, and how architects often get this confused. And really, the dictum I loved from TJ is people don't need to know, like and trust you to buy something they need to acknowledge need and to be motivated to fulfill it and believe that you can solve it. So sit back, relax and enjoy TJ Lyons. Have
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TJ, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm very well, thanks.
Excellent to have you on the show. Now, I was very excited to connect with you. We met on LinkedIn, I believe. And you run a business called cubed, that helps architects when work essentially, and you work with practices all across the UK, you help them with business development, getting appointments, set in the diaries in their calendars with prospective clients, you do a lot of the work that many architects shy away from doing or perhaps don't enjoy doing or don't have any systems for doing it well. And you take that all of their play and give them the freedom to be going off. And being architects whilst you essentially are a plugin, Business Development Office for them, and helps nurturing high caliber leads, so that they're sort of they're kind of principals can come in and close those inquiries for work, which as a business premise, I think, is absolutely brilliant, and would put you in a position of being an expert to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is sales and marketing. So why don't we start with with because it's a it's clearly a very important need for the architectural industry. How did you get involved in this part, this this world, and why architects?
So there's a couple of things that led me to architects, I wanted to be an architect as a kid. And actually, I started a architecture course when I left school, and dawned on me that I had another seven plus years, so I didn't I didn't have time for that. So I switched over to wise construction management. And it was actually as well a friend of mine who's that he's is a successful architect. Now he's done really well, but at the time, he said, Don't do it. So I did switch over, but it's always been in the back of my head. While I was on the architecture course, we went to Barcelona for the week and winter. These work that kind of got me really interested. But then also I found it dawned on me the likelihood is I'd end up doing Granny's extensions to the rest of Luckily, I'm not designing century to build. So I that led to me build starting a contracting business. Initially, it was just doing domestic fence installations for local people. And by time I was 23, we had about 25, staff commercializes all over the UK. So tough business, though it looked good. We had lots of arms and people and that kind of thing. But anybody that's done contracting knows that margins are slim. It's a very tough business. And I develop self awareness that I'm really bad at managing people, especially tradesmen. So but I always I was really good at getting work in that was the one thing I was really good at. I didn't know what business development was at the time. I just it was just natural for me to give people a call, or I was really good at networking and that kind of thing. And I was always drumming up new business. So I had a very booked up, sort of schedule of work, but I was struggling to get it delivered. It led me to decide to wrap it up the best in business and about 2017. But at the time, my friends, or peers were saying, Well, if you're not doing any contracts, and can you help me get some work, how did you get those contracts, cetera. And sort of by default, I ended up doing I guess, freelance business development. I found a friend, a now friend who was just a consultant at the time, they do a similar model to us in the marketing industry, and effectively paid her as a consultant. And they gave me their whole business model. And I adapted that to the construction world. And cut a long story short, I had a chat with my friend who advised me not to be an architect from the beginning. So do you think architects could use this? Yeah, but a certain size, like the middle of the AJ 100 might be interested. So we hit the phones, and called the whole AJ 100 and list and we took on Broadway Malyan who have still now they're in their fourth year with us. And we just smashed it for them, it just went really well. It just seemed to really complement their business and what they do. So I decided to just go all in on architects, and it's sort of compounded because we're constantly working in the same sort of property sectors and things and we're building insights. Now, we've got to really put up a lot of insight into it. So when a client comes to us, I can look at a list of their targets and probably tell them the position that developers in and exactly the person they want to speak to off the top of my head. But we've built a database of 50,000 people in about 10,000 businesses and our CRM now with notes. I mean, the individual so it's become really powerful.
Pretty epic. Yeah. Pretty epic. Kind of data. Yeah, network that you've you've developed. So that's interesting. So you decided to kind of focus on the material kind of practices, if you like, or practices or over a certain size? Why? Why was that? What was the kind of strategy behind that as opposed to working with your micro practices of four or five people.
So as a couple of reasons for that, too, we found that practices were less than 50, people just didn't have the resources to, to pay for us. Also, I was trying to build credibility in that sector. So a lot of my focus was on getting clients that had a reputable name. So when we call before we've got a handful of probably almost 10 clients that will be very well known architect, so I could say them to any other architect. And I know exactly I know exactly who they are. That was a focus in year one, definitely a focusing on architects. And but, yeah, mainly, if they're too small, when you get under 50, they wouldn't be able to outsource that whole function to us. Although we're trapped, we're starting to work with slightly smaller practices now and developing a couple of services for them. But it's not totally it's a totally different offering, because it has shown me that before, it's expensive to outsource.
So So what let's say for example, when you're working with a client, what kinds of issues are they experiencing? Like what are the what are the problems that they're that they're normally dealing with in their own business? development that they would have them utilize a company like yours, we
find that most of most architects are either really bad at sales, or they sort of have done in those may feel like that their reputation should just precede them and will do wonderful work. Everybody will come to us. And
that is the the much perpetrated myth in. Yeah.
And although there's some practices that do that, if you're Richard Rogers or Zaha Hadid Yeah, okay, fine. But
they'll tell you having worked at Richard Rogers, the end? Well, I can tell you having worked at Richard Rogers practices that they were very aggressive salespeople. Yes. And
this is so I don't know if I'm digressing here. Pay is very bad. We spoke about this before in architecture. That's because margins are tight. Margins are tight is BS, because they're bad. Any, the reason someone like Rogers would charge triple what another practice would charge is because they're salesmen. They're very good sales. So to shy away from it, and think that you're above it is insane. It's not that they're more talented that they recruit from the same talent pool as you. They're going for the same clients are doing the same projects. So why are they charge and triple. And it's just positioning and salesmanship is the only thing that separates. So when we, when we speak to a new client, it will be so typically a business that looks on their nose, that sales won't engage with us. It's usually the more commercially like motivated and focused practices that will use us. So they already have, they already see a value in being proactive. But they will just have absolutely no idea where to start, or have any typically amazing architects do lovely work, but wouldn't know where to start on creating a new business strategy, what to say so and where to find them, and all of that stuff. So it will be a typical client will engage us when they're commercially focused, but just don't have that technical skill, or the resources.
Got it? And so and so when you engage with the client, what's the first thing that you guys actually do? How do you, particularly if you're dealing with a client, and they're working in the sector that perhaps you've don't have any experience in? Or you don't have any connections with? Does that happen? Or do you normally? Yeah, that's when you've already?
Yeah, recently a client is there an ongoing kind of been on a couple of years, but they've decided that they'd like to do some more, more work in the cruise ship sector, something we've never done before. So we literally got on the wall, in the office, on the cruise ship brands, or their sub brands. And we found all the decision makes more brands. But every architect thinks what they do is special. And what they do is different, and we couldn't possibly understand it. But truth is, it's all exactly the same process is exactly the same offerings. So if you're selling to cruise ships, or if you're selling to a developer, or a brand, it makes absolutely no difference in reality. If a client says to us, who wants to hotels next, hotel is a little bit more tricky, because you have to find, you know, maybe investors or developers who are building the hotels on behalf of the brands. But that's just detective work. So that's if we don't know anything about it, we'll map out the landscape. And we'll figure out who the people are. But we'll also look at the first thing we're going to do is figure out your priorities for getting new business. In the early days, I made the mistake of saying to a client, you know, who do you want to target? And they'll say, well, we'd like to go into like BTR and we'd say fine, and peculiar BTR but then the results wouldn't be as good as they could be. And that might be because their portfolio is not very good in it, or their proposition is not very good. It might not be their strongest, their strongest sector. So what we do first is figure out their priorities. Is it to get these in the door? Or do you want to break into new sectors? Would you want to build more of a market share somewhere? And then we'll say, okay, which, based on those priorities, which sectors would reflect the strongest. So if they said, We want to get more fees in the door, and we've got a really long track record, and BTR we said, Well, that's an obvious one. And then we'd say, well, are there any economic factors that might affect that? And if there are the more gone to the second best one, or if not would go with that. But we typically find that actually, we need to target a sector that they hadn't even considered or Well, they thought we've done too much in that. But your power isn't to get more phased in the door. So actually, we should worry about looking at cruise ships another time. If this is your priority. First thing we do is figure out their priority, figure out which sectors reflect. And then we're going to figure out why. What so we had a client recently had an opportunity with JCB, dacb, had had, right, the same architect for 20 years. So we contacted them and offered them. I'll be honest, I don't really understand the technology. I'm not an architect, but there was, the client does something with them differently, right? So we use that, as we say, Look, we know you, you've got an architect in place. And you're probably happy with them. But we use this, this design software, and we think it could really help. They took the meeting and they actually gave our client the opportunity because to build a gym and a new factory. And that was because it's not about it's not that they had this long relationship or anything like that. It was we had an actual reason to have a discussion, despite already be a half liter existing architect. Actually, this is another reason have a chat. And if there's nothing interesting that we come up with, that the client can offer their clients, we'd have to be creative. So one of our clients wanted to meet developers. So we partnered with a salon in Fitzrovia. Who can offer free hair styling, because they're gonna have professionals in their salon, they did that for free. And we created the women in property event. Salon. And then when we all the people that we couldn't book directly meetings with just to talk about architecture, we then went back to them and said, we've got this event happened, we're really interested in your opinion, please come along. And that got another way to get in the room. But it was it's just coming up with creative reasons to get people in the room is typically we'll get them just talking about new business, but if not, so coming to work on it.
So explain that one again. So you you organized a women in property event hosted at a hair salon? Yeah, like a spa and like, like a spa? And, and then and then so people. So who were who were coming to that would that architects come into that or developers will come into that developers
and pick it would be we were aiming for developers, we mix it up a bit. They were the clients were the architects, we got some project managers there, a couple of couple of others. But the main targets were the developers. But it was because we had a list that had been put on the side that said, we've got nothing going on at the moment, we're not interested. But our client actually wanted to build a relationship as soon as possible. So that was just a way that just saying that we've got a really good track record. And we'd really like to work he wasn't working. So how else do we get them in the room. We didn't physically organize the event, we're not a vent, or we're not an event organization. Business. We just came up with a concept and just supporting the client and getting that set up. And
then and then then they kind of invited everyone and and did that and uncertain. So you you kind of created or curated a guest list of people that you'd like to see there. And then the then the spa kind of organize the event and were you doing the invites, or just the spa,
we were just doing the we were just doing the course. And it's people we would have spoken to already for the client. And they said we're not really interested the months later and said We know you've got nothing on moment. It's not about that we'd like to have, we'd like to hear your opinion on whatever they did about women in construction. Can we hear about the interest? In your opinion? Can you pop in and have a look? And yeah, we're just a way to get get in front of them. But um, that's an extreme example. We don't do that very often. But it's, you do need to be creative and coming up with reasons. Because it's just not enough just to call up and ask for a job unless you have a really specific and so one of my clients just finished a really fancy job for a university down a Cambridge University job. And nothing we're doing is we're taking we're calling and vital to the tour. So we're calling estate directors, getting them down to show them around the labs. So yeah, if typically we're booking new business presentations, that's the meat of our work, but if there's people that are a bit more tricky to get In front of left a bit more creative.
Brilliant. So the services then that you guys provide, what kinds of things you're, you're doing that you're doing a lot of outreach on behalf of the architects. What does it look like inside of your office thing? What if I went in and spent a day with you guys, but what kinds of things, what activities would I see that were that your team is doing on behalf of your clients.
So there's a lot of work, there's lots of calls being made. But it's not like a call center. It's not like that. So if you think of a call center where the dead opposite of that, and there's lots of planning and research going on, and lots of talking about the clients developing approaches, there'll be people doing roleplay and pitches with each other, because every time they get off the off of a call, we're all around the table. And we think, Oh, you missed, you could have said this, or you could have improved your approach like this, we'll work on it, or they'll go downstairs and they'll kind of run through it and, and improve it together. But it's not like really the the day to day work is quite, it's quite strenuous, it's quite boring, actually, is quite repetitive. Once you get the ball rolling on a on a campaign. The fun bit is when we get new campaigns that become a new approach, do the research and build the list and all of that stuff is fun. And then it's just right now we've got to deliver it. And it really is just, yeah, yeah, you've just got to kind of grind through it, you'll have a campaign will be maybe 30 businesses at a time. And you might have out of that three contacts in each business to focus on. And we'll we'll kind of grind through that for a couple of weeks. Until, until we've got answers from everybody knows that. That's the that's kind of the rat reality of it. It's, it's been hard to sorry.
And is it What's your main weapon? Is it email, LinkedIn off the phone, or
by a country mile? The phone is the main tool, by country map that we do
probably the most underused tool in an architect's office.
Yeah, exactly. And it's a shame because it's the best is the best sales tool you can use. And I actually saw I saw your episode with is it Joe air? This is?
Joe hair. Yeah. Joe hair. From from from White, Red.
Yeah. And I would recommend any small practice to watch that video. And pretty much do it everything Joe said. And I'm guessing that's what you told him. The only thing that I picked up on what Joe said, and I thought that's one thing is polishing up is when he said we did a lot of cold calling. But that was really uncomfortable. That's the first thing he said about it. And actually, it's not uncomfortable, he probably had heat and on sat in a comfortable chair, any discomfort he had was all in his own head. And and he'd created it himself. And I think that it once it once anybody that's doing cold calls, realizes that any discomfort is producing their own head. And it's a belief issue, not a confidence issue. It's a belief issue. And once they've solved that issue, it becomes so much easier. It's not rude, you're not interrupting anybody. And all of that stuff you need to get out of your head. But other than that, well, sorry.
Yeah, I was I was very impressed with their approach. They they worked with a business mentor or business business consultants, and well, it wasn't us. But I was very impressed with like, exactly what you're saying that they you know, they kind of put created the list. They knew who they wanted to be talking to, and then they started the grind. Yes.
And if any small practices or any small practices, just watch that episode and does what he said that the thing about architecture is it's very, it's a flooded market for sure, but it's not competitive. Because nobody everybody's terrified of actually putting their head above the parapet and going for it. So if you even do bad Coke, you're already head and shoulders above your competition. You know, or if you aren't, if you use less
really interesting, it's a flooded market, but it's not compelling. to dip in the sense that nobody's, you know, doing any marketing, you know, they're not they're not, they're not being proactive. That's really interesting. Because I'll often say to practices, you know, they'll be like, Well, how do we differentiate, differentiate ourselves and make ourselves look different. And I often just said, just do some marketing. Yeah, like, just pick up, pick up the phone and do something, like, be proactive, that that is at the stage, that is enough. And there's such such huge hesitancy to, to doing it. And, you know, part of it is kind of what you're what you're saying, there's a perception of selling being beneath us, we shouldn't have to do this. And then, of course, the, the actual fear of picking up the phone and, and connecting with somebody who you don't know, naturally,
the market we're in, I've spoken to leaders, every single one of the biggest stock prices in the country, because at some stage, and when I spoke to make, it's no secret that makers, their, their, their practice is very proud of that work. And they're very proud of that they attract work from doing great work. So when I spoke to very senior people make an expense, some what I do their reaction was we No, we wouldn't do that, you know, that's people do that look desperate. Which I was surprised that in a way, at the time, but anyway, I've, it's kind of it kind of stuck with me, because it was the most extreme conversation I had about it. And then, and I had this conversation with a few people. And then recently, it came into the architects journal that they'd had to sacrifice things and their staff. And the reason they've done that is because they're not doing enough new business, you know, if they, and their attitude towards new business is that it's beneath them. And that, like I said earlier, that their reputation should proceed. So it's a, it's a perfect example, that if you don't make business development, the center of your business, and you think that you're too good to go out and pick up the phone, I think it's far it looks far more desperate to sacrifice himself yourself than it does to ring up and say, I'm interested to having a chat about some work, you know. So I think it's a really good example of a practice who, who looks down their nose at sales? And append the prospect?
Yeah, no, I think that's a really, really kind of pertinent example, there. And this, this is even today, I had somebody telling me, I was talking with a with a client earlier on today. And I was asking them, why hadn't they jumped on the phone with this, you know, with the prospect that they were pursuing or this kind of thing? And they said, Oh, we don't, I don't look desperate. And this, this mindset, and we unpicked it, and at the end of it, they were laughing, and they were like, Okay, no, it's not, it's not desperate at all, to be doing this and how that that mindset is, you know, that is that really, really kind of floods the architecture world of, well, I'm not going to pick up the phone, because I'll look desperate. And I don't want to be seen. Okay. And you're quite right, you know, letting go of 15% of your, of your of your workforce is way worse, way worse. Look. Yeah, for sure. And in and the reality of it is, is that when you get when if you if you, you know, what, what are you doing, you're when you're reaching out to other businesses, and you're doing it with the attitude of I want to help you. That's not desperate. That's, that's you're going out with, I want to I want to contribute, I want to help, I want to be able to, you know, I want to see your business thrive. I want to see your projects, get off the ground, I want to help you create and you know further where you want to go. It's a contribution. It's not, it's not desperation.
And most people, the majority of people are very rational, and very reasonable. If you call them and they're not interested. They'll just say, Oh, no, it's not right for us. And they'll usually be quiet fly about anything. People build up in their head that you're gonna call someone, they're gonna be showered back down the face, and how dare you call me? It's, I mean, it's happened. We make 1000s of books a year. It's happens like once in a blue moon. And we'll talk about it for a week in the office because we'll be so surprised. But it's, it's very rare. It's very unlikely. Yeah. And going back to this. So if you if you focus on business development, and like we were talking about if you have Richard Rogers, Richard Rogers and focused on sales. What that means is you can sell at home Watching. So you can select the worst one, which is the stuff you're good at stuff you make the most money out, which means you can pay people fairly means you can retain the best stuff, which means you can do even better work and make more money, and it just compounds. So it's crazy that you wouldn't want to do that, that you'd want to kind of sit on your laurels, rely on your reputation, have no control over what work comes in, and think I will just settle with the juniors. And the work drops off, you know, it really winds me off, I could rant about it for hours. But um, it's something that I don't know if it's a good mission to be on. But I'm on a bit of a mission to try and make architectural practices realize that that needs to stop that
well enough. And I have been saying for years, that one of our kind of missions, the Business of Architecture has been to make business sexy, and in particular, to make sales sexy to architects, right. And ironically, we've, we've, you know, we've done lots of different sales, training programs and courses in the past. And, you know, we've found in our own marketing that if we call it sales, then there's a kind of natural aversion to it. And there's kind of, there's ways of there's ways we have to call it and change the language and the wording of it. And, you know, and ultimately, it's always blaming sales. Yeah. And it's, it's like, that's like, that is the engine of your business. That is the sales and marketing and the engine of capitalism. And they are the most fundamental skills in business. And as an architect, I'd say that you're selling all the time in your, you know, even once you've won a project, you've got to sell the client on the idea, you've got to sell them on the next phase of work, you've got to sell them on the next, you know, upsell, if you like of services, or additional work or scope, expansion, or whatever it is, you've got to be able to be an on the ball salesperson all the way through a project. So to completely neglect it is so dangerous and damaging to a business, that it's insane. And this is why it really excites me the fact that there's organizations like yours, that are now you know, here, an architectural business now can start outsourcing a lot of that, that work and actually have full time dedicated expertise on to literally the most important part of their business. Yes, that's. So let's, let's talk a little bit about networking, or, and kind of some strategies here or just some ideas, because a lot of architects I'll speak to, they can get very frustrated with networking, perhaps they're joined the BNI. And then there'll be kicking around in a BNI circle for for years and years and years and pick up the odd job, or they'll go to these events that they that they absolutely hate going to and they won't meet anybody or they meet somebody random. Or they'll do these the bicycle trip down to mid Penn. And then there'll be like, you know, 100 people, hey, people look me up and 50,000 but a lot, a lot, many, many 1000s. And then it's, it's a kind of hit and miss, you know, spray gun approach. Some of the more sophisticated networkers will have a bit of a strategy when they go there. So how can we, you know, networking can be a big time suck? What are some of the things to or how do you guys help train your clients in becoming effective? networkers?
Right. So networking is actually something that I'm very passionate about. Because what you just described there is when people say it's a bit of a waste of time, that's because then they have no strategy behind it, and they have no skills behind it. So when I went to meet him, I went with him recently. I had 30 meetings. 10 per day over three days, is good for clients. I've never met them before. I'd never met those people. And so I've kind of picked up the nickname The unsociable networker, which I'm going to start pushing a bit more because I've got it because the name of the workshop I've been delivering for my clients and it's becoming popular. The idea behind is you don't network to make friends. It's madness to go out and this whole this whole concept of it being relationships and what Basically making people like you is insane to me. You don't go networking to make friends, you go networking to prospect, that's what you're there for. So when I go to when I go to a networking event, I am terrible. I don't, never drunk alcohol, I don't go to pubs. If I go to a social event, I'll be in a corner, quiet. I really struggle with small talk. But I'm actually an extremely effective networker. And I'll walk into a networking event. And I'll be around within an hour. And I'll walk out with meetings. And that's because I go in there with a, with an outcome in mind. So I'll give you an example. I just spoke to a architects a couple of days ago, who's talking about coming on as a client, and said, I've got a events go to tonight. And I'm dreading it, because I hate small talk and stuff. But I just want to get my face now. It was an organization he wants to sell to. He said, I need to get my face around. I'd like to work with them. And I said, So what do you want to do with this company? And he said, I'm not really sure. And I said, Who do you need to speak to? He said, Well, I'm not really sure. And I said, what are you what you need to do, you need to find out the person in that business you need to speak to, or which one or other or a decision maker that's there, find them walk up to them, and say, it's really busy here, not really much time to chat, please can be a really good tip is have your business card to hand and put it in front of them and say, Do you mind if we swap cards. And I'm gonna give you a call in a couple of days. And we'll arrange coffee, if that's all right. People will have reaction and you bet their business card that works very well. They put their mobile number, they've, you've told them, I'm going to call you in a couple of days, they expect it. Give him a call in a couple of days and set that coffee. And I said, then you can go straight home, after you've had that one conversation, you don't need to smooch around the event anymore. The only standing more small talk. So you're going there to do. So I set him that task. But that's how I work when I go. I'll know exactly who's there. Or, or at least, so who I need to meet. So I'll walk into a group, and I'll sell what so what does everybody do? It's a no one's there that it's use. Like that goes to my it matches my campaign that I'm there to do. Oh, I'm not gonna be rude to them. Obviously, I'll do small talk. And oh, yeah, it's nice to have a chat and move on, but very swift. Find somebody that says, Oh, I'm a partner in architecture firm. I said, all right. You know, it's really busy. But I'd be really interested to have a chat with you. Do you mind if we get coffee another time? And I'll do exactly that process. And I'll move to another group and see if there's any architects in that one. But I'll work the room and I'll go and I'll walk out with three or four business cards with coffees rearranged. Because I'm there to prospect, not me. And I'm architects always push back. And they say it is about relationships. And so a point I get further down the line, when you're when you're actually setting up projects and stuff. Yes, having a relationship helps. But it's not the reason people buy. And and it certainly isn't the reason you're networking. I think people confuse sales and branding. So sales is why people buy and in this scenario, it's even listening to why they should even consider you buy that first meeting. Brandon is why they come back. So that's if they like you. And if you did a good job and all that stuff. Is just getting them separate that in their mind and use networking as a as a tool to prospect, not make friends.
Yep, yeah. So I like this. It's very interesting, actually, that making a distinction here that in the prospecting and networking, you're not there to go and develop a relationship. That couldn't happen once you've once you're working together. But right now you're striking up conversations with, you know, to help somebody ultimately to understand what their problem is, if it's a fit. And also then the other thing is, I'm often saving in the context of sales. It's not necessarily that you're that you need anyone to like you, but they do need to trust you. They do need to better have some trust in this in the sense that you could that you could solve their problem. Well,
yeah, so trust is a funny one. So have you ever had like a really bad toothache or needed like Rick?
No, but no, I couldn't imagine. If
you had a really, really bad toothache. You go to the dentist at that time. You wouldn't care if that man kidnapped puppies for a hobby. You just want him to take the tooth out, then you wouldn't it wouldn't bother you Need to like him at all? What you need usual, what you need is a problem, which is your toothache and motivations or solve it, which is the pain. And you just need to believe that you can solve it. You don't need to trust even you trust your job, but you just need to believe that he
Yeah, so when I'm when I'm using the word Trust and meaning and using very specifically in that in that they can you trust that they can solve your problem, not just terms of like I trust them with my with my with a million dollars or I trust them morally or who they are as a person. That's irrelevant. Yeah, but I trust that they can do the work.
Yeah, that's fair enough. So yeah, that's the three motivations that and even when you're networking. These are your questions should be based around these things. So do you have a problem? So for us, it's so you're looking for new business at the moment? You know, do you struggle? Do you find that you're constantly doing proposals or not? They're not going anywhere? Yes. Is that something you want to solve at the moment? If there's a no, then I'll move on to another person say yes. And we'll look at now I need to know I need to show them that we know what we're doing. But I can't do it now. So then I'll say, well, listen, I actually sold that for similar practices. Would you mind grabbing a coffee? Because that's the three qualifying questions. They don't need. I worked with. I worked with just comb Wiles, two years before I even met them. They're only they're only in London. They're like 40 minutes from the office on the train or hadn't met them for two years. After we started working with them, it was I've got to know them really well now. And I'd say we're friends now, you know, but for a long time, it hadn't even met me in person. They just a cold call that the the main partner there. I said, you look for new business. He said, Yes, he motivates. So it yes, we have a few teams, cause he's convinced that we saw before. And that was it. It had nothing to do with weather in new lights or trusted me as a person. Yep. So anyway, that's that's kind of the things I love.
I like that that makes it a lot more kind of efficient. So let's, let's talk a little bit about sales and brand, then and where do architects get this? I won't get this confused. And you started to allude to it there that sales is the kind of the first part that gets you that gets you that wins you the job. And then the brand is the thing that keeps them coming back? Yeah,
I think so. architects think that their brand sells. Which, if you're a huge corporate firm, if you're Nike, or Marks and Spencers Yes, it will. But your non your your even large architectural practices or SMEs, we will call developers who have worked with the likes of Broadway man in the past and have never heard of them. They'll say, you know, we've not, I don't know who you are. And then we'll have to send over case studies to show we've worked with them before. So it's not like you don't know architectural practice has that. Except for the really big ones, probably. But anybody under the top three or four, nobody's going to buy into a brand of an architectural practice. So let's, so an example. We've done a campaign to university, or universities. So we are targeting state directors at universities. Now. Our client had been sending brochures with pretty pictures of buildings to these university directors. And if I'm being probably a bit brutal, if you look at the profile of a university estate director, their background, they've probably failed at academics, or ex army or ex police or something along those lines. They've ended up in this job where they're running the estate at university, that person really couldn't care less about design, or architecture or anything. What they care about is are you going to make me look good from my boss? Is it even a technically deliver it? So there's no point sending them a brochure with pretty architecture in it, it means nothing to them. So what we need to do is, instead of trying to send them your branding, saying this is what we stand for, need to send them a sales message, which is that we know you've got a new lab being built. This is how we can make sure it goes really well. This is our track record. And this is why you should have a chat with us. But But yeah, that's where I think architects get confused between using branding and sales.
That's, that's a great example is actually not not Yeah, you're not you're not using you don't understand what the audience is, and you're sending them stuff, which is completely irrelevant to what it is that they're actually that they care about. That's that's important. Yeah. And so how would you how would you approach developers? What do you think is a kind of a good strategy are a way of seducing developers into talking with you? How do you those kinds of conversations,
so developers are actually like, we find them the easiest people to get there. So they're what we call a specialist client, there's somebody that builds all the time. Whereas the non specialist client might be like footlocker, or littles. And so we really don't have to, I don't know if it's because we've got such a clear profile. And so many developers. Now when we contact them, we kind of know exactly who to call. Exactly. And we have notes on what they responded to before. But typically, it's very simple, which usually we've had a look at your recent developments. And we've seen which areas they work in, or what styles and we think we've got a track record in that area, or in that in that type of building. And we'd just like to share some ideas, I have chattiest some synergies, that's usually a really easily start conversation, or asking, if you got any new sites coming up, you're looking at? Would you like to have a look at them? And would you you know, because we're already good track record and maximize the values out of them? That is quite an easy approach. You don't have to try that hard. And they're typically very open. And fantastic. Yeah. But, and then great. You have to be a little bit creative. If they say we've got a roster of architects and you say, yeah, totally understand that. You've got people in place, I'm not looking to change anything. But you're saying you need like quite specific topics to talk about. But um, other than that, you have to be creative. And one, actually, a podcast is something I'm trying to get a couple of clients to do, because instead of using a podcast to market your business, I want to create some podcasts for my clients that talk about issues that maybe developers would be interested in. And then just massage their ego a bit and say, We're doing this series about, you know, whatever they're interested in, can we get you on to have a chat? And then you've got them in the studio then and just using it as a tool to leverage people into the building, rather than even marketing? It's got to be creative. Yeah.
No, I mean, I like that as a built a career out of doing that. You know, the invitation to come on to a podcast, or even if you've just got a newsletter, right? You've got newsletter. Now, you've now now you can think of yourself as a media publication. And you can invite somebody in to be interviewed on your newsletter. And it's great because you get to speak to somebody about what it is that they do, and to find out about them. And it's an easy sell. Yeah, it's an easy, it's an easy way to get into it. And then and then naturally, it's going to come up of like, okay, well, what sorts of things do you do? And it was an interesting interview, I had it, actually, someone did this to me the other day marketer, and they contacted me on LinkedIn, and they said, really love the podcast. Would you like to be on my podcast to talk about podcasting? So yeah, great. When did the podcast and they were asked me very interesting questions. And of course, at the end of it, I was like, so what is it that you, you, you do? Well, I'm a, I run a marketing agency for podcasters. And I help podcasters. You know, repurpose their content and help them level this XY and Z. And I was like, we should have a talk. Yeah. And then great. Now I'm into a sales now I'm in a sales conversation with them, I thought was brilliant. Yeah. Really, really, really, really easy. Really, really easy. Excellent. TJ, I think we've, exactly. I think we've come to the end of our conversation here. We've come to time, but that was brilliant. Really, really fascinating. And I think what you guys are doing is well well needed for the architecture industry. So if people want to get in contact with you, what's the best way for them to do so? So
on LinkedIn, my name is spelled T E J. Y. Lions are white ons. Cubed business development, or at QBD on the Instagram. And also, so like I said, the social networker is some I've got the website if you literally Google the answers, networker. You'll find what we're doing around that as well. Just
love it. Brilliant. Thank you so much. And that's a wrap. And one more thing. If you haven't already, please do head on over to iTunes or Spotify. And leave us a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. And we'd love to get your feedback. And we'd love to hear what it is that you'd like to see more of and what you love about the show already. Have
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