Pride Week! Day 2: Cunning Queeroes Bayard Rustin and Walter Neagle

8:51PM Jun 17, 2022

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Happy Pride Month everyone this week in celebration of pride, we're releasing several of our favourite LGBTQIA plus stories that we've recorded since February. If you miss them the first time around, you've got a real treat ahead of you. And if you've already heard them, we promise they're just as amazing the second time.

First up today, we are revisiting our conversation with Walter Nagle. And this was one of my favourite interviews that we've done, Walter fought to overcome countless obstacles to love including the legality of his own marriage. If you're not allowed to marry your partner, what if you adopt them instead? Keep listening to hear the whole incredible story. I'm in love with that I'm in love with you. Today we've got a very special guest who is more than familiar with legal and social obstacles to love. Walter Nagel has been an instrumental figure in the battle for LGBTQ rights. His partner was civil rights legend Bayard Rustin, in the 1970s and 80s. And together, they are famous for finding an ingenious loophole in the laws ban on same sex marriage. Civil adoption. This episode came to be because I subscribe to a wonderful daily newsletter called The anti racism daily and in February they do a email curated museum exhibit one item per day for Black History month last year, and this year, they talked about Bayard Rustin. In the email by Nicole Cardoza Camille Bethune Brown and Shinae Burch, they wrote that Bayard Rustin, was an openly gay black strategist, pacifist and innovative civil rights activist. His book time on two crosses is a collection of essays and photos that offer his perspective on the civil rights movement at the time. Are you familiar with Bayard Rustin at all, Alicia,

I was not familiar until you sent me that article and I sort of got up to speed.

brief recap please brief recap. Walter and Baird were partners from 1977 until Baird's death in 1987. They were 37 years apart in age. And this is important later. They were very active in the civil rights movement, but they are and in particular helped organise the March on Washington in the 40s and 60s and in 1963, the big one that you might remember from many many newscasts, there is a very famous photo that still shocks me to my core of the physical document organising the March on Washington, like the actual type of document. This is how we're going to make this happen. Here's where the toilets are. Here's where the routes are. Here's where people are coming from the actual logistical manual. Baird helped write that his name is on the cover throughout the civil rights movement. He worked behind the scenes with many of the people you have probably heard of. He was discriminated against not only because he was black, but because he was gay. rumours were spread that Baird had a sexual relationship with Martin Luther King meant to destabilise the whole movement. And as a result, King was advised to distance himself from bear now this is the man who can organise all the things, he is being sidelined in the 70s. Of course, as you probably remember, gay couples were not afforded familial rights as heterosexual couples were. These included things like property law, tax law, hospital visitation, parental rights, and inheritance. All of those things were limited for gay couples. And because of the age difference, and because Baird, they assumed would probably die before Walter. He wanted to make sure that Walter was the executor of his estate and his heir. And so I love clever brilliance. And it makes me sad that this is what they had to do, but at the same time, I admire the ingenuity. Baird legally adopted Walter as his son in order to obtain family rights, and that was the most legally binding option available at the time. Their relationship opened up discussions about legal rights for same sex couples. And after Baird's death, Walter continued to support and continue bears legacy. He accepted the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2013 on Bairds behalf, and now the Bayard Rustin. Coalition promotes education and advocacy for social change, both for the black community and for same sex couples. And when I read this email, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be amazing if we could talk about this relationship and maybe find a historian? No, no, no, no. Please welcome Walter Nagle. It is just such an honour to speak to you. I'm so excited to ask you many questions. Thank you so much for doing this. It's It's an honour to talk to you.

Thank you. Well, I promise An internet guy who had an extraordinary boyfriend. Oh,

well, honestly, pretty much what we want to ask you about how did you first meet?

I first met Byard, quite by chance on a street corner, right in Times Square of all places. We were just standing there waiting for a light to change. And we looked at each other and that was it.

Do you remember that moment? Clearly, even now? Oh, yeah,

sure. Yeah, I remember. I mean, I remember because, you know, Byard was noted for carrying a walking stick. And he didn't have one that day. I mean, I knew I knew who fired rested was but I didn't have a visual reference really didn't have some reference. So I didn't see you didn't have a stick. But of course, as soon as he introduced himself, then I, I immediately knew who he was.

What did you think when you first saw him? Do you remember what you noticed first?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. He was absolutely gorgeous. roughly six foot one older, African American man with wonderful white hair. Very dressed very neatly, very nicely in a suit. very tailored, very well turned out and a wonderful smile. Just that you know, really, like who could ask for more. I mean, I know there are people that could but like, me, I that was right there. That was good for me.

It's always the smile. You notice first, right?

For me, it is yeah. No, I'm really a basically a face guy.

After you met, and you had this moment of being Thunderstruck by this incredibly handsome person with a gorgeous smile. How did you did you go on a date? Did you talk? Did you just sort of follow him down the street? What happened next? Do you remember the early parts of your courtship?

Yeah, well, at the time we met, I was actually on my way to a newsstand in Times Square, which sold papers from all over the United States and all over the world. And I had decided that that quant that I was going to move out of New York and move out to San Francisco. So it was on my way to get to San Francisco Chronicle to start looking at jobs and apartments and things like that. I mean, this is in the days before internet, of course. So we have our session newspapers with advertisements and want ads and classifieds. So I got the paper, but never quite made it to San Francisco. So you know, I went back the paper went back to bards. And we came back to this apartment and started chatting and courting.

Wow. So you were actually on a street corner. And also at almost a crossroads in your life. You were about to move. And you ended up on the same street corner as this person who completely changed the trajectory of your life.

That's right. Absolutely. Wow, I swear if if you stand on a corner in Times Square long enough, everybody in the world will pass you by at some point. That is absolutely true.

There's your

I wasn't standing there waiting. I know that I confess, wow.

What was your impression of of him? My husband calls it the whole calls we have a winter moment? Well, once

I once I knew who he once he introduced himself and I knew who he was. I had a tendency we had a history. But of course, obviously we didn't have a history. Well, we did, we did share was a set of values. And a I knew about his work and his involvement in certainly the African American struggle at that point. And I was somebody that had grown up, you know, seeing this stuff on television and reading about it in the newspapers. And I was very interested in it, I was very taken with it. And the whole idea of non violence appealing to your enemy, or your opponents would say, but I didn't have enemies to opponents. A heart and mind through the force of love and openness was something that I found very appealing when I was a young person. So we you know, we shared, we had a commonality, we shared a set of values and ideas and principles. And so that's really what enabled us to have a long term relationship. That's what makes them a marriage, if

you will. Absolutely. No, I know you weren't able to get married. And so Baird adopted you. Correct, which is a very clever and effective workaround to the laws that prohibited you from from enjoying a lot of illegal benefits of being together at that time. I love the idea that this is the situation we're going to find a way to get around it for for each other and for our safety. And there's so many little legal things that get in the way when you're trying to care for someone if you're not their spouse. It's it's all of these little little obstacles that that gets rid of.

Absolutely, absolutely. We explore Marines that and that was one of the reasons we decided to proceed with the adoption. Bard was 37 years older than me. And we knew that if we were both to live out our natural lifespans, which was not a guarantee, especially at that time have to be, you know, AIDS coming in. Yeah, that. But, you know, if he were, if that were to happen, he would die before. And he wanted me to be in charge of his estate and to manage his writings and his papers, and, you know, all of this property, because we had heard the stories of couples, you know, they just had trouble. I mean, you'd be visiting your partner in the hospital, your partner of 30 or 40 years, and suddenly a quote, unquote, family member would show up who you hadn't even met. And like you were out of there. Yep. Because there was no legal protection. And that was just that rageous. So we really felt we needed that protection. And of course, you know, when he did become ill, I was the person that had to get consent for, you know, to move forward with surgery and things like that. So, you know, it worked out for us. But of course, I, you know, I think about, sometimes I think about well, it worked out for us, maybe partly because he was, you know, he was a bit of a celebrity made things a little bit easier. And I think about all the people out there that didn't have perhaps that status or privilege, if you will, that had to suffer through humiliation and embarrassment and all of that kind of thing, because they were not able to marry legally. Yeah.

How do people respond to the adoption?

And now we're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere, because the story will continue.

Oh, people were fine with it. amused on some level sometimes, especially our close friends. I can imagine. Yeah, yeah, we would show up at sometimes he would show up at dinners. And if they had a place card, it would say Byard Reston and son. Which was very cute. But yeah, everybody was, you know, comfortable with it. It wasn't public information. I mean, you know, there wasn't, it wasn't an announcement on the society page in New York Times. No, but you know, anybody who was part of our life knew about it, my family's family, our friends. And, you know, people were, like, you people thought it was kind of a clever and creative way to get around the restrictions that are placed on same sex couples at that time.

Yeah. I would love to ask you some memories about Baird, I hope it's not painful for me to pry in this way. But I was wondering if you had any favourite memories of him? I have learned about the work that they are dead and the legacy that he has left. But what about your memories of him? Do you have any that you

would want to share?

Yeah, absolutely. My memories of him, of course, are very personal and intimate. But, you know, people that you know, people that knew him, of course, you know, share some of these memories with me. I think that there's a difference between what the public saw very often the news, yes, exactly. It's very was different, because Byard could be fierce or it could be, he was non violent. But that didn't mean you couldn't be militant. It didn't mean you couldn't look at the camera and point your finger and shout or say something with authority. And very often did that and had to do it. But are we you know, I remember a person who did those things, but also who was very gentle and warm and very loving and very open. And the people that worked for him, I think would say pretty much the same thing. I mean, he was really a generous person, a generous boss. And I think you can kind of see that with the people that he worked with on the March on Washington. You know, he, he sat down and wrote out that manual. He had a lot of help, of course, but he knew how to mentor people and how to guide people in how to work with people. And that was one of the things that the young people who really worked with him on the march really found most appealing. He enabled them to grow into a job grow into a title grow into a role, and many of those people went on to play significant roles in still in our society.

In terms of looking at your own relationship do you think that your relationship with with with Baird brought more attention And to the lack of rights for LGBTQ couples at the time, and even now, I wouldn't

say that it did at the time. Because as I said, you know, it wasn't, you know, very public information. But, you know, within, actually, within four or five years of the adoption, he passed, he died in 1987. And I know in the news reports, some of the news reports, people referred to me as his adopted son, which, you know, that's the way I mean, that was the legal, that was the legal relationship, I probably would have preferred that, that said, Life partner or something like that. But those terms weren't even being commonly used at that time. But yeah, I mean, you know, it appeared that, you know, I was the person that he cared most about in the world. I think anybody that knew that, that knew us knew that, and certainly anybody that would read an account and see, he left his estate to his adopted son, you know, if they knew anything about him at all, they would put two and two together. Yes, these

these two women lived together for 60 years. They were lifelong friends. Yes, absolutely. Exactly.

Yes. My dear friend, yeah,

I see through this euphemism. It's very transparent. What,

you know, a lot of people don't know, they don't know people didn't, there,

really. And as a parent of a queer child, I am very gratified that he gets to grow up in a world where there are so many possibilities for him in his life. What do you think that Bayard would think of the fact that you can get married now that they're that you can have the same sex marriage is legal in the United States and elsewhere?

You would say? Will you marry me?

No. Question. Yes, absolutely.

No, I mean, he would be, he would be delighted that same sex couples were able to get married, and, you know, not just have a legal foundation for their relationship. But also, you know, there's a psychological legitimacy that comes along with the seller, like whether, you know, whether we like that necessarily, or think that it's even necessary or anything else. It's, it's reality. Yeah, it's a reality and to have, you know, have I don't? Well, you know, to have the stamp of approval, perhaps, if you will, on a relationship is, you know, what's important is significant. You don't feel like you're outlaws anymore, if you will.

Do you have any advice for people that you would give, especially with things like love or relationships, or, you know, carrying the big L legacy word,

you know, being in a relationship is sometimes it's sometimes difficult, sometimes hard. Yeah. And I think, and this is something that probably, most people don't want to hear, or don't like to hear or don't like the idea of, but I think you, you always have to be willing to give, and you always have to be the one that's willing to compromise, perhaps, apologise, perhaps, give that little extra mile. And I think I was lucky, in that I had somebody who believed the same thing. So we were always sort of trying to get out of each other's way or, you know, be affectionate and be forgiving and be loving. I could see where it would be difficult if you were involved with somebody who wasn't like that. But I was, you know, I was lucky to have somebody who shared those shared those ideas.

Thank you so, so much for sharing your time with us today.

I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

So what is your love to go? What do you take from this conversation into your day to day? One thing

I was thinking of, while we were listening to Walter talk, is that this workaround, this adult adoption workaround, has been around for a while, and I like I knew about it. We used to talk about it in law school. And I don't think people understand how recent because the last seven years have been so accelerated in terms of

all things happening all at once. Yeah.

I mean, 2015 was the Supreme Court case Obergefell versus Hodges, where they struck down state's ability to discriminate based on you know, what gender you were when you when you got married and forcing all 50 states to recognise same sex marriages as just as they do any other marriage. So my takeaway really is that Love finds a way

Love finds a way. If you would like to tell us your love story, please send an email to lovestruck daily at frolic dot media. If you would like to follow us on Instagram and Twitter, we are at love Strike daily and you can leave a review, subscribe and spread the word about the show. And this is just the beginning. Keep listening all week as we release several incredible sweet and all together lovely queer stories and celebration of pride. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein. Our editor is Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler and little Scorpion studios and Julian Davis with executive producer frolic media. This is an I Heart Radio Podcast. Wherever you are today we wish you a very happily ever after. I'm in love with you saying to you I'm in love with you. I'm in love with you