Joining me now is the principal of the Hills Grammar School. Karen Yeager, Karen. Welcome to the to our podcast.
Thank you so much, Cameron. It's a pleasure to be talking with you.
Before we get into the topic of concept based teaching and programming, can you give us a little bit about your background and how you went from your role as a classroom teacher to where you are now?
Yeah, certainly. So I actually hired 11 years off to be a mom. And when I actually lost my first child, and decided that children were probably far more important than teaching at the time, despite being a very ambitious young teacher, and no regrets, came back to English teaching and discovered I felt quite inadequate as an English teacher having 11 years off. So I was fortunate to discover the English teachers association, and Eva golden people that inspired me. I then became a head teacher in Richmond river Hi, I loved every moment of it worked with the most amazing colleagues who are still friends for life. And there is probably where I learned a lot about the importance of great teaching and getting the best results out of kids and the importance of education for children. And so did my masters a quality teaching looked at the importance of conceptual understanding for kids from then ended up in Sydney, where my last one left home at regional office in the DT and worked with 320 schools in Northern Sydney on professional learning for teachers. And from there to Knox as a as a dean of studies than a deputy head. And now principal.
I think I first met you during that time where you're working with Northern Sydney schools delivering professional learning. And you had presented this course on concept based programming, which has been such a key part of the work that the English teachers association have been doing now for the last more than 10 years. And for those people outside of New South Wales, who may not be aware of this, there is a new English syllabus coming into effect next year, that takes that concept based approach as the backbone of its approach to structuring English curriculum. So can you tell us a little bit about that journey about how you, you know, you said that working at the Richmond river school year is where you really got to understand the importance of conceptual understanding, how do you go from gaining that experience to influencing the development of a new syllabus,
so I was very fortunate that I met Deb McPherson, who is the then CEO of English for state office, and she kind of, I suppose noticed the potential and made what I was doing with programming. And then of course, Professor Wayne Sawyer looked at the way I was writing units of work and backwards mapping. And they were invited me to come to Sydney. And I started sharing a lot of that and my approaches, and then in 2007, I trained pre-agreed and then worked with her and took around the entire state of New South Wales stole the English faculties, they approached against a conceptual programming approach. And then years later, when I left, the DI T kind of got, it shifted and morphed into textual concepts, which became a joint English Teacher Association and di t project, which then has now Jeff masters saw the value of it. And it's now in the new syllabus for next year. He actually was one that in his reform review of the syllabus, he actually talked about the importance of concepts, and he named the textual concepts that eta di t developed together.
Well, let's so let's dive right into it, then what? When we're talking about a conceptual approach to programming or conceptual understanding, let's start with the basics. How do you define a concept what is a concept around which to build a unit of work or student understanding?
So what I discovered was that a lot of teachers when they program and this is not as an English, they actually use themes. And the problem with the theme, it's often disconnected from the syllabus and the outcomes that are being assessed. So one of the first things I thought if we're going to really take kids along the journey, and we're assessing them based on the outcomes of our syllabuses, and we in fact, should be grounding them in the key discipline of English, and the key demands of that syllabus through the outcomes. So what a key it becomes is a concept is a key idea, or a big idea. That's the body of knowledge of a discipline. So for example, in English, you can see that a lot of the work that we do is around the act of representation, the constructiveness of a text, the way an author chooses language, composes text, if we don't teach children about that act of representation, then how do they become critical readers and how do they become themselves great writers. So if you're just the problem often with an English teacher, is that they will start with a text first and they Teach the text very close study of it. And the children, if they don't like it, they get lost in it. If you don't, if you instead of doing it that way, you start with a framework a concept. And let's just say the concept of character. And you teach how to compose his craft great characters. What's the voice of a character? Like? What perspective? Do they use? Or point of view? If we're talking about limited third, for example? You know, how do they then craft their own characters? And suddenly what you're doing, you're going beyond them just understanding English text to understand the craft of English itself, the discipline of English, and how they themselves become writers themselves?
Can we just unpack a little bit more detail? When you say that a lot of people you build units around themes? Or that you've experienced people building units around themes? How do you differentiate between a theme and a concept?
So a theme might be I'm going to take the classic text that most teachers I've got in the book room To Kill a Mockingbird? So To Kill a Mockingbird, okay, the theme of prejudice. And they'll look at it through the lens of prejudice. And the kids might remember the book. But when I asked teachers, why did they what did they love about but apart from the factors of that book room? What did they love about that text, and they'll say to me all I love the voice. Or I love the characters, or I love the storyline, the narrative. And what you should be doing instead, it's okay to look with prejudice. But in fact, English is about those big concepts. I've just talked about those key decision areas. And so instead, if you were teaching it, you looked at where it wasn't the scope and sequence of your programming. And you said, I'm going to teach it through the lens of character. So if you think of it more as a lens, a framework, Linda darling Hammond recovery refers to it as a structure, a structural framework for learning. So that if you say, or the concept is character, and therefore we're going to, we're going to look at those key characters and how they're crafted. And then Lau what, you know, analyze those characters and why it's done. Now, try and do it yourself. So what they're doing is by doing it in a conceptual way, you're not just understanding what a novel is about and the theme of prejudice. You're now understanding how to take what a writer has done, use those skills yourself, and yourself, become a writer.
Now, you mentioned that when you had been delivering this work, it had been looking not just obviously English has been such a key focus of your career, but what might concepts look like in other disciplines besides English,
like works in every single subject, I took it across the whole of my previous school at Knox, I've taken across other primary schools. So just just again, to give you an example, the subject of mathematics is probably one of the most conceptual subjects out there. And what was really interesting for me when I was teaching at Knox, the boys used to say to me, you teach like a math teacher? And I thought, oh, Does that just mean? I'm kind of just straightforward? Or do I make it easy? Do I backwards map? Well, what do I do? And finally, I asked my last year at Knox, I said, What do you mean, it took a math teacher, and they said, English teachers teach novels and place, maths teachers teach concepts. And I then got to go in and watch an extension to math teacher teach. And he kept coming back to saying it's not about the solution and the answer, he said, it's about the concept of patterns. And then another lesson I watched it was the concept of probability or the data of representation was another concept. And so if you even take as a subject such as geography, you know, you've got sustainability is an overarching concept. Every single subject can use the concepts from the outcomes in their syllabus, to develop really great lines of inquiry for students to teach them the skills and knowledge they need.
And I think that point there is worth highlighting as well because a lot of the conceptual foundations of subjects are in the syllabus documents, but they're not made explicit. You know, I mean, I remember the work that you did with the English teachers association in building the textual concepts. A key part of that was drawing out what was in the syllabus but was kind of buried in among pages of dot points. How has what kind of what kind of direct input Have you had into this new syllabus where the concepts are now considered core content?
Look, the work as I said, it went from my work to them crew and Eva, golden and small and Mel Dixon really took it over and started working through what became the textual concepts framework for the DI T TA. And then that actually has been taken up by NASA itself, who then put them in to the new syllabus. I have been a tag member or teacher advisory group critical for And so I did write a position paper for the new syllabus and stressed the importance of conceptual understanding, but also then looked at those concepts that we're using and where they were.
And so when it comes to actually translating that into classroom practice, you can't I mean, obviously can't just walk into a classroom and say, okay, representation, how do you actually go about structuring a unit to build conceptual understanding, beyond just say, remembering facts and figures, or, you know, remembering declarative information from a subject?
It's, I mean, I love the Wiggins of my work, I think it's timeless. And that is that notion of backwards mapping. So for a lot of teachers, we talked about programming. And assessment is something that's added on as a summative task at the insert secret teachers business. So it's starting with what do you want the children to know? And why does it matter? asking those key questions? How will they get there? How will you enrich that understanding and learning and what technologies resources we need to get there? So asking those was the old teacher quality framework questions, they still works? Then asking, Well, what somebody's task is my having at the end, and therefore, what formative tasks do I need along the way to get them there? Once you kind of get to scope and sequence you say, alright, it's term three, it's a nine. What is it the matters about what I'm currently teaching? What big ideas or concepts have we covered to date, what's in the syllabus itself, and what's recommended. So it might be that you're now to stage five, it might be a nine, it might be turn three. And you're actually looking at style, you're looking at language and conventions, because you're really building up their understanding of the craft, again, of English itself. So the first thing you might do the very first thing, if you're doing it through a text or short stories, or poetry or film, it doesn't matter. It might be the very first thing that you do is share a really rich, extract, like an extract from a film extract from a poem, a short story, and you start to look at it through that lens, that framework of say, conventions, style, and conventions and language. And really point out, for example, I love words, you know, just to point out the power and amazing wonder of words, and you know, the performativity of words even. And point that out builder and a really focus on that right from the beginning and say our assessment task is going to be, this is what we're going to be learning. So it's that backwards mapping. And it's also less than intention, not as at start of every lesson, which becomes a bit perfunctory, but it's the very start, this is why we're doing this unit of work, why it matters, where it sits in the sequence of learning how it relates to the syllabus itself, here are outcomes. And here are the concepts that we're dealing with in this particular unit of work. And then all your texts you choose, fit into that framework and demonstrate and build that. So it might be you might start with just imagery. And you spend nearly two weeks looking at imagery and the force of words, muscular verbs, and then the following fortnight you might be now looking or let's draw the lens out. And let's look at syntax. And the way sentence structure can change the, you know, the, the meaning the tiring the feel of, of language and words. So you building all the way through to the final thing could be, you know, a simple, it could be an essay, where you're actually analyzing a really great unseen piece of writing, or it could be your own piece of writing that a student's building. Demonstrating that understanding.
You mentioned that you had taken this concept based approach across the whole school when you were Deputy Dean of sort of Dean of studies at Knox, what what is it about this approach? What does it do for students to have that conceptual understanding the teachers have gone through planning a unit this way, have built up towards a conceptual understanding towards whatever demonstration of summative assessment is at the end? But then, what's the actual benefit to doing that approach to students as opposed to, you know, teaching to the theme or teaching to, you know, teaching rote learning towards a test at the end? Why is this? Why do you see this as a superior approach?
There's a whole lot of really brilliant research that's been done around a meter and a Fine, Darling Hammond, but let's just say the basis of the way the brain works. So our brain love, we love patterns, we can we can hear the first few bars of a song and we'll know what it is. And our brain doesn't work on just straight content, we actually like patterns or concepts. And so the synaptic impulses in the brain happen memory happens and the dendrites dance in the brain, when we actually have that sort of repetition of patterns and ideas and big ideas. So what it does, it allows children to develop that kind of sustainable, deeper Understanding that's applicable across, not just the seventh stage forth, but right through to Year 12. So why is it that students get to year 12, HSC, English, there are so much about the concept of representation, they haven't got a clue what it is they don't understand it, they don't understand that it's a constructed act, that it's, you know, influenced very much by context of a composer, if they have all that background knowledge starting from a very young age, then the application of learning becomes so much easier for them. So it's about the ability now to be a critical thinker. It's about the ability to have a framework through which you study, if I'm just studying with Beth, for example, as a close study of text. And that's it, then I might remember aspects of Macbeth, but I won't actually understand why I studied it in the first place. So texts should be a vehicle for learning, not the focus of learning. So if you're using it, that means you could use as a teacher, any play any novel, any poem. So it's deepening that learning. And it advances the skills. So I become better at writing I become I'm learning from the masters. So I'm seeing you know, if I'm looking again, at say, character, I'm looking at how a character is constructed and how I can do it. So it's, you know, that whole notion of how we learn in the first place, you know, that zone of proximal learning suddenly comes into play, because we're seeing it, we're understanding it, we're getting the big picture concepts. And in fact, I've watched results just improve, I saw it Richard River High, we never had a band six in English. In one year, we were getting band sixes and you know, beating both schools, either side of us, the Catholic schools, either side. It just lifts the understanding of kids, it's no longer just secret teachers business.
And that's the kind of results you see across the board, or was that primarily in English?
No, I could see I've seen it across the board. Because you're, it's, I suppose it's like this kind of it's deep knowledge and deep understanding of a subject, not surface learning the problem with rote learning and content, you can regurgitate, but you'll forget it tomorrow after the test is over. This is long lasting, sustainable learning. It just means you keep that deep understanding for a long time.
If I it's been a while since you mentioned Wiggins and McTighe. And it's been a while since I've read their work, I seem to remember they made a lot out of the notion of essential questions, being a way to engage in that conceptual understanding. Was that something that you brought across? And that's still related to, you know, unit design for this new syllabus? Or, you know, where did Essential Questions fit in? If you're drawing on their work?
I call them the key questions. I think they're essential. Because one of the things I found that we're doing conceptual programming with teachers and head teachers, and this is not just an English and every subject, is that when I'd say to them, at the end of the unit of work, what big question Would you like students to be able to answer? And it all comes down to what I said, initially? What do you want students to learn? And why does it matter? And so many struggle with that one? Like, if there was one big question you'd ask kids at the end of 10 weeks? What is it they could answer? Once you can do that you actually start seeing what the key concepts are, shouldn't be, what the assessment tasks, so they are really vital. So what I've always tried to get people when they're designing their teaching programs is to ask what is the overarching question. So that's connected to what he wants students to learn, and why does it matter? And then the second one is, then what are the key questions through the outcomes of the syllabus that you need students be able to answer as well. And those key questions again, drive a lot of your teaching lessons, they drive your assessment, your formative assessment. So again, you're using a framework and those questions should be given to children upfront at the very start of unit of work. Honestly, after having done it for will center it rich and river days. So we're talking 20 years. I think it transformed my teaching. That it's probably the most honest thing of all, it transformed the way I taught. Because, you know, I just think suddenly it makes you think about what is it that children need to learn. Rather than focus just on on content, it's suddenly now about skills and knowledge and deep understanding. They're the three things that I think become pivotal to conceptual programming.
In talking about essential questions or key questions, as you call them being so central to unit design. Would you describe this concept based approach as being an inherently inquiry based approach to teaching or does it suggest a certain pedagogy in the classroom? How do you see the teaching of concepts in its practical manifestation?
There's a really great line from Professor John machete from Newcastle University. That's says that children come to school to watch teachers work. And teachers do all the work. By using this approach, you're empowering students more. So you're giving them the tools they need to do and the skills and knowledge, they need to apply the learning. So yes, it is an inquiry approach. But it is also about direct instruction, explicit teaching right up front. So you're explicitly teaching the understandings that are needed, the skills that are needed. So again, if I go back to let's just say the concept of character, again, you're teaching them what are the skills of crafting a character, you know, and that brings in point of view, that brings in voice, for example, that brings in even right down to language conventions and adjectives that are used dialogue that's used. So you're teaching that explicitly, and then giving kids the skills and understanding of how to apply that then to their own learning, and, and particularly in our subject, or if we're in geography or any other subject, what that means to assessment or to the real world itself.
And just that phrase you use there, the idea of what understandings you want students to come away with, because because the idea of understanding is, in my understanding, very closely linked to conceptual knowledge and understanding. What do you define as an understanding? And then what does that look like in students responses?
I suppose understanding is having the skills and knowledge and deep knowledge that you need to have the confidence and courage to take risks, to apply it to different situations, no matter what the subject, and I think that, you know, if you were looking for examples, such as a concept of authority that students will need when they leave school, if they're going for job interviews, or representing, you know, even arguing with their spouse, you know, the skills that are required there. They are lifelong skills that are transferable. And it's not just about the fact that I read, you know, as a student Animal Farm, you know, I looked at the art of rhetoric and what that meant, and how I can apply that, you know, beyond English and to life itself.
So, in your teaching career with working with concepts, have you had any? Have you had any particular favorites, I suppose any that have really stood out as either grabbing students imagination, or really opening up new discussions in the classroom, particularly the English classroom.
Look, I think the because I love writing, and it's something I've written about, it's something that I did my National Reading fellowship on, I really worry that kids these days, aren't getting the chance to show that they can write well. And it's shown by a terrible, you know, NAPLAN results in writing, which is probably not the best measure, but it is showing that our kids are struggling. So one of my favorite and it's interesting because it did come under style, under the current title concepts, but I still love the concept of imagery. And I have used that when the most beautiful unit that I did with students both at Richmond River High and at Knox in my first three years there, where I didn't just use one text, I was using poetry short story I use Fill. The work that came out of that when kids suddenly learned how to craft their own imagery in their own writing was profound. And I'm, you know, if I go right back to Richard River, I'm talking about children who would have been considered very low ability and they were actually able, I mean, the funniest one I remember was a boy who I can't stand killing animals in any form. He was a pig shooter. He wrote one of them as graphic, incredible poems about shooting pigs. Horrified, but he was so proud of himself along with the images he took with his camera Yes, he's finally got they said, you know, miss their feral pigs. They're on the farm. They're no good for our farm. But I remember reading his poetry. He got it.
Got it in perhaps the most gory and off putting away but that got it nonetheless.
Yeah, I watched children write poetry like through my window, which became something I shared with the New South Wales dt. They wrote the most amazing the Bundjalung kids most amazing poetry ever, because I didn't just teach, say Romantic poets. I taught how a writer can craft imagery.
Well, Karen, for anybody who'd like to learn more about concept based programming about its relationship to Hear how people think and understand or how to develop these kinds of units, where would you recommend they start reading?
Well, first of all, I think the if you go to the DI T textual concepts that is there, but the eta is got some really good stuff we've actually got. We're taking around the whole state, English teachers association conceptual programming, which I'm going to be taking Newcastle on Central Coast, and Eva, golden and small and Mel Dixon will be taking beyond to the rest of the regions. So we're going to be sharing all this across the state. I would definitely read Wiggins and McTighe work. Lindy darling Hammonds recent work on concepts is absolutely brilliant as well.
Well, I will make sure there are links to the relevant websites and resources in the show notes. Karen, thank you once again for your time. As I've said to you in private, encountering that professional learning of yours 15 years ago, 16 years ago was transformative for my own teaching career, and has been a backbone of my work in English ever since. So on a personal note, thank you.
Thank you. That means a lot, Cameron. Thank you for the opportunity.
