A Conversation about Going Further with Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts - Kevin Clayton, Travis Ning, Prisca Bae, and Ashley Clinkscale

3:28PM Aug 11, 2023

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Travis Ning

Prisca Bae

Kevin Clayton

Ashley Clinkscale

Keywords:

organization

work

kevin

talk

people

diversity

community

conversation

de

ashley

love

asian americans

years

part

engaging

inclusive

ceo

feel

white males

experience

Hey, I'm John.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

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So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?

Hey, John, so excited to be back. We're talking Diversity, Equity and Inclusion this week. And we have got a firehouse of a conversation panel going on?

Yes, we do. And I think we titled this panel that we wanted to go deeper into the AI discussions. And I love the lens that our panelists brought to this conversation. Because really just the discovery of what is inclusion really mean at a base level, I think is something that it's really easy to all get on the same page of if you kind of think about what that means. So I hope this conversation is going to resonate with you as much as it did with us. And the powerhouse guest as Becky said, the firehouse of jazz.

Whatever it takes for it. I mean, we're going deeper and the people who have elevated this conversation are Kevin Clayton he is the Vice President of Diversity Inclusion and Engagement for the Cleveland Cavaliers John, that's an NBA team. We also had on Travis mean, who we've had on the podcast, incredible human being. He's the Program Director at the ward foundation. We're delighted to have Prescott Bay, She's the Chief partnerships officer at the Asian American foundation. And rounding out this dynamic panel we had Ashley clink scale, She is the Senior Advisor at race for good, which is dear friends of ours. We love our friends over at Rice for good and their CSR efforts.

So you know, it's really important to us to have a conversation specifically about DE and I because we look out across the sector, and we see a lot of good work happening. But people are paying us of like, hey, we want to go further. It's We're way beyond saying check the box, you know, that is a hope you're not an organization that This is that kind of a conversation. But what does it really look like to go deeper in that work? How do we make a incredible strong business case alongside of that, too, and we're going to talk about partnerships. We're gonna talk about values. We're gonna go deep in this conversation today. And so where do you wanna start?

I want to start with Ashley, like, and I think you've got the question. So you're gonna have to take it on the chin. But really, we actually, you've got such a wealth of information. And we want you to talk about how do we look at DE and I as a business case statement, like, we need to know like how we got so many people that are saying, you know, I don't see the value in this, which if you don't see the value, and including other people, which is our number one value of our company, talk about the business case for this and how you've seen it play out in your world.

In a nutshell, in general, if you look at our country, the demographics are scheduled or predicted to change over the next 1015 years. And we're starting to see this in the most recent census, you're going to have to start meeting communities and their knees where they are across the board. And I think that's the biggest piece, whether it's our LGBTQ plus community or others. Since 1990, we've had Americans with Disabilities Act law, but have organizations have been used have facilities and beyond met those standards? And so to an extent, they have, I feel there's an opportunity to go above and beyond. So as we look at business cases, absolutely. But people are calling for more. And I think right now, the society that we're in, you know, to get people into our spaces, and utilizing our products and engaging with our current, the accurate community partners, it's important to understand those demographic demographics, basis and actually like model and market to them in a way in which the community feels value. But also trust the brand that you're presenting trust is a huge part, you know, being present being intentional. So the business case is like, you know, what can we do as an organization to make sure that we see long term return on investment and engagement in diverse communities? What does it look like long term, not just in the moment, so to me, that's really the business case. angle for me from DE and I like,

that's a perfect segue here. Because Travis, I've heard you say the best way you've seen an organization expand is to be generous. So you're speaking words that we love, but he said, the way we scale is to give it away. Would you talk about how that how you've seen that fuel your mission?

awesome to be here. So excited, nervous? I mean, I think there's a lot more conversation around this abundance mindset I heard it referred to in a couple of sessions yesterday, and I think we're all suddenly gleeful to have it I've found find it so refreshing. I'm guilty of having played the scarcity mindset game for the early part of my own career, like, it was a race to be the first in line and push everyone else out of the way as much as you possibly could working internationally, I feel I feel like I can't really compare to the to the US scene, but working in much very profoundly scarcity. Like those scarcity where where I work a lot of the time, and I think just pervades, it pervades more and more into the sector, what we realized and working in Guatemala was this, like, everyone's job is really, really hard. And innovation requires collaboration, I heard someone say that yesterday, this session, and you really can't innovate in the silo. And I think, when we were just confronting problems, and the challenges around in this case, opening a secondary school for indigenous mind, girls, we have no idea what we're doing. And the requirement to really reach out to find partnership. It wasn't really a could have nice to have, it was really a must have. And I think that really opened up and zoomed the whole landscape out. I think what, that I only recently jumped the fence. So I'm having a hard time in this conversation, because I'm still, you know, when you change jobs, and you keep referring back to your old job as if it were your present job, I'm definitely doing that a lot. And I keep doing it. And so I keep, I keep pivoting. But now I'm on the funder side. And I think I'm much more acutely aware, having brought the fundraiser side with me. This type of collaboration requires time and money. And so expecting organizations to partner to knowledge transfer, we might have the will, but we don't have the way a lot of the time. And I think funders in particular need to think about that as we look at the ecosystemic approach to collaboration, we have to keep in mind that people are really, really busy. And they don't have the bandwidth to do this, they might have all the aspirations of the world. And I think, from the funders, I don't really look into advocating for that to that time and money or what funders have. And that's what the typically the organization's lack. And so what's the formula that we can look at to really proliferate this whole idea of collaboration more effectively in the sector?

So beautifully said, and Travis always has all the words, I love it when he takes us to church with them. So thank you for that incredible, just analysis there, because something that we've heard that's been a big trend in our community is people who are saying, Look, I'm just one of the worker bees, I believe in dei work, but I can't get my leaders on board. I can't get them to see that we have had a board, you know, of 25 white men who have sat on this board for 20 to 30 years, I can't get my executive director to change our hiring practices. So I do want to talk about accountability Preska because I feel like you are such an expert in this space. How do we foster that accountability at all levels of the organization, including the leadership, including our staff, even possibly our volunteers? Like, how do we hold them accountable for meeting our goals of DE and I goals, and making sure that all of those DE and I efforts are like actually integrated into the culture and not making this a sort of check the box sort of initiative

ashore, and it's so lovely to be with everyone. You know, I think when you think about diversity, especially in corporations, people need to understand that there are several layers, right happening, there are on the employee side, there are some things called employee resource groups. So these are like employees, right, who work at the company who really care about diversity, and they're trying their best. And then there's the chief diversity officer and those teams, and those are the people who are tasked day to day to do this work. And they're trying their best. And then there's a CEO, right, who if they are the right kind of CEO, who is visionary, and, and right minded and thinking about the business, they care about diversity as well. But oftentimes, there's this layer between the CEO and the chief diversity officer, maybe one or two sometimes, or sometimes all they're thinking about is their day jobs and their day to day job is not diversity. So I really do think at companies it's about get, it's like bridging that link. And what does it mean? Does it make make, like, you know, do you have the chief diversity officer reporting directly to the CEO, whatever that is, there has to be a better connection between the CEO and everyone who actually cares about diversity within the organization in order to move the work forward. So when it comes to accountability, you have to get everyone in line inside an organization for the work to actually happen. And then to hold them accountable. And accountability means numbers, data tracking, right. And there are some people who think like, you know, tie people's, you know, compensation to results, but that's really hard. I think that right now, and I'm curious what the other panelists think diversity is at an inflection point. People say they care. But you know, are they putting resources and power behind these efforts? I think that is that is a bigger question. Like, are people actually caring? You know, we have chief diversity officers, we have people doing the work, but are they empowered? Do they have the money? Do they have the decision making power? I think that is the thing that I'm really curious about, especially now it's a few years after George Floyd. It's a few years after the Atlanta shootings. And I think right now is when we actually have to go back to those companies and those leaders and say, are you still doing the things that you said you were gonna do two or three years ago.

And I want to, I want to like pitch that in love that to the panelists. If anyone wants to respond to that, I would love to hear your thoughts. Hi, Kevin. Ken, in here,

Jill, how are you?

So good to see you, my friend. What do you think I

was when I was just going to kind of chime in on the kind of the question that was asked? Well, first, it's interesting that we're talking about kind of post George Floyd post the Atlanta shootings, this work has been going on for decades. DE and I is not new. What is new is the fact that it's at the forefront of everybody's consciousness like it is. So yes. Do you have the resources, those organizations that have shown progress in this have dedicated this as part of the operationalizing of DE and I into their business? When it's considered the DE and I is kind of over here on the right, and the rest of the businesses on the left. That's why it's marginalized because it's not considered part of the business or if it's nonprofit, like we're having a conversation, is it really being leveraged to drive mission? So those are really the challenges around this? Does the organization look at DNI as a business asset? Like they look at marketing, like they look at business analytics, like they look at all the other functions? It's kind of an extra.

That is such good insight. And Tamra I love your comment in the chat about this isn't optional. It's the only way forward. And so Kevin, I kind of want to go back to you again, and just talk about, you said that social impact just doesn't have strings attached. And we love that so much because you believe that D and I should not be transactional. Talk to us kind of about why you think everybody does have a role to play in this movement right now.

So So sure, thank you for that kind introduction. When we talk about the work of DE and I and you said it earlier, like why wouldn't you want everybody included? The challenge has been that and I'll go back to again, post George Floyd, it has been them against us. And the them is typically white males. And then the US would be women, people of color, and all others, if you will, including those in the LGBTQ plus community, everyone else. But when you exclude white males from the conversation of DE and I, you have actually created the chasm of why people can't come together. I personally have lived a little bit of life, I've never seen two white males, and we're the same. So that's just me, because everybody brings something different to the table. So the exclusionary piece happens when if white males don't see how they benefit from the work of DE and I, why would they then support? If this is something that they don't see them benefiting? Why would they support others benefited. And that's just kind of human nature. So any plan that I have developed, I have developed it so that everybody who looks at that plan sees how they benefit, I give you a very specific example. At the calves, we have a foundational plan that includes our workforce, our workplace, community, our marketplace, as well as supplier diversity. Everybody can see how they benefit in that. And they can see how they benefit from the standpoint that from a marketplace standpoint, and within our fans, if we have specific strategies and tactics that are going to sell more products that are going to sell more calves gear, how does everyone not benefit if our objective is to sell more apparel? And when a how we connect from a diversity standpoint, are we connecting with all communities when we're even designing the apparel. So that's just one example. But I can go over multiple examples of it has to be inclusive, it has to be operationalize. And Preska to your point we have and any place that I've done this work, it does tie to compensation. Everybody in our organization has a compensation piece, because it's not just around the representation of how many people of color we have an organization, it's more holistic.

I love that. And as like a leader here of we're for good. I mean, we were challenged to have like how do we infuse DE and I work into just all the ways that we show up online through our media ecosystem? And we struggled to say do we create a pillar about it? But after so many conversations, we're like, no, a pillar is going to continue to create some of the silos of this. It's like how do we infuse it into every part of our business? And so I'm excited and listening with all these leaning years. And I want to kick this to Ashley to say, what kind of structures or systems can be built within orgs to improve diversity and perpetuate DE and I practices? Just in a real, you know, practical level.

The best place to start is people need a strategic plan that's related to DE and I. You asked the question, you know, people are, you know, they're woke and all of this language has come, you know, post George Floyd and to Kevin's point, organizations and brands have been doing the work intentionally and if you don't have a strategy about how this leaves into your organization, and to your nonprofit, then yes, you know, it will impact Like financially, because you're just, you know, blindly doing it to do something without a strategy of how to engage with communities and really meeting the communities where they are. And so I'll even say with razor good, you know, initiatives are laid out through the next three to four to five years and woven into all different areas of the organization. As Kevin mentioned, you know, retail, a large part of his thought leadership, you know, how we spend our money at the supplier diversity standpoint is really huge. How are you a pipeline to communities? I mean, Oregon is not a diverse community, but how are you? How are we a pipeline to other markets and engaging with different communities? So what we get into branding, your community engagement, marketing and community and corporate partnerships, but also how are you communicating to these communities and being the megaphone for these communities. So all these departments or departments and entities, within organizations have some type of Equity and Diversity, strategy and goals, it should be a non negotiable in my eyes for organizations? And you know, they should be transparent with it, put it in the forefront? What are the data and analytics behind it? How are you just not throwing numbers out? There. So I would say start from there, that other pieces will then come into play, you know, if you know that your organization that needs more diversity, than the key piece of your strategy is really going to be revoked, focusing on recruitment, and substantially retention of staff of color of women, and LGBTQ plus and disabled folks. So I think putting a strategy in plays, and you know, engaging the right folks will be you know, a good really place to start.

I'm just like seeing your arms widen, as you say that I mean, it, it's just such a warm and inclusive way to walk through this earth to make sure that everyone is feeling seen and that they do matter. And I do think that this movement is going to require many hands and many voices. And to your point, we've got to share that megaphone, and I want to talk about how we get more people involved. And I gotta go to the Queen of partnerships for this one, so Preska. I mean, I just think Taff does an amazing job of finding partners that are wholly aligned with your values, to build upon these incredible ideals that you have that are, you know, growing up within your organization. And I want to talk about how do you work together to advance those goals and and like, what have you seen play out over at TAF.

So the Asian American Foundation is a new organization, we're only two years old. And when we launched two years ago, you know, right after the Atlanta shootings, one of the focus areas was engaging corporate partners, we really wanted to work with corporate, you know, CEOs and chief diversity officers to talk about Asian Americans and how we could be a part of the inclusion movement. Because in my experience working at places like PepsiCo, waiting, diversity work on behalf of women, I always felt like Asian Americans were not maybe part of the strategy in a way that we could have. So, you know, in these two years, it's been really incredible to see just in all of our conversations, how amazingly open and encouraging everyone has been about, you know, including Asian Americans in that perspective. And we've had a lot of honest conversations where, you know, people have said to me, like, we actually don't know a lot about the Asian American community and what the needs are. So I do think like, I enter into all these conversations and work, seeing sort of opportunity, and you know, wanting to be open, everyone should be open minded. And if people don't know, it's okay, we, you know, we teach, we learn, we share, and I think that is the approach that we have a Taff is, you know, doesn't matter if you haven't done anything, we want to be a partner, we want to be a partner with you in order to grow this work, not only for Asian Americans, but for all communities of color, because we do believe it diversity is a term that is for everyone, right? I think, Kevin, you're sort of alluding to this, it's, it's for everyone, all the policies that we are pushing for will literally benefit everyone. It means that when you're at or in a room or at a table, you feel like you have a say. I think that's ultimately what we're trying to do. And I think that at Taff, we're kind of doing it for Asian Americans a little bit right now. Because I think for Asian Americans, for many employees in different companies, they haven't really spoken up until more recently, and we're really excited that people are in that there's a lot of momentum, but we do believe that what we're trying to do, we just want to push the conversation forward for everyone, not just Asian Americans.

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That is so beautiful and I just gotta like double click and lift something on that because I think the way your your organization is fairly new, and the way that you have built it with such intentionality is so holistic, it is so open arms, and we had Jonathan Greenblatt on the podcast, the president of the anti Defamation League. And we found out he was one of the instigators to say, hey, we need an Asian American foundation we need the ADL needs to be pouring into Black Lives Matter. And I think when you see other organizations rise up and put their arms around each other, gosh, that feels better. What an organic partnership that's leading to more growth, more understanding more empathy here for all of it.

I mean, I will know one of the benefits that we did have. So Jonathan Greenblatt did help found our organization, he went to a table of Asian American leaders and said, Hey, there's a rise in hate against Asian Americans, you might want to do something about it. So my founding board members include Joe Tsai, who owns a Brooklyn. That's right, Jerry Yang, who is a co founder of Yahoo. So I have the privilege of having these incredible leaders and other CEOs pushing for us. And that's something that we need in this movement. We need very new leaders, you know, who have to be very vocal, and they have been

here for that. Well, I

mean, continuing on with this, and it's so good about just getting more people involved. Travis, I want to tap your experience, because you just been so brilliant at this. I've just how do you engage with communities you're serving and building relationships? And then on that, how do you plan for a diverse stakeholder group to ensure that your efforts are both inclusive and responsive to those needs?

Heavy question.

As far as the first part, and engaging with communities, again, I can only really come at this from an international lens being from Colorado, but having really orbited outside the US ever since leaving school. And if you can all reflect back and think of a time you left, hopefully, we'll have the opportunity to travel abroad and be in a culture and and the country that is super confusing to you. And we all kind of lose our minds. And in a way that is the best part. But it also makes us often ignore all of the parts of this condition that we've been talking about up until now. I think he gives us often an excuse to not even try in terms of working with DE and I elements in any way. I think we're worse at it. As humans, we're worse at it when we're traveling outside of our comfort zones. And without the language history, context experience to guide behavior, we can do a lot of harm with our good intentions. And I think a lot of my experience has been seeing that, again, it's really painful to see how good intentions can really translate into negative impact. And I agree with with Kevin's point that it's always been around the DE and I element. But in realm of International Development, this conversation is just beginning. Yeah, I think there's a piece to this, that I've experienced. And I started as a Peace Corps volunteer. And that's all about sort of white savior ism, and the whole thing and I think denying the golden parachute that's been on my back since I was born and and tried to pretend it's not there. So you can yes, you can move to a village and learn the language and eat the food and learn all the customs. And it's still there. And I think where I've learned is to acknowledge that it's always there. And again, all the other panelists that really refer to this, this, this notion of really embracing the idea of being an ally in the space, not pretending that we're all the same. I can live in Guatemala, and be in solidarity with people, but I cannot be those people. And I think really using that as a leveraging that as a conversation starter when you're creating engagement spaces, acknowledging like, Hey, man, I'm not from here, I do not know how this works. Someone's needs needs to help me. And I think opening that space and creating expectations of a failed tolerance space, when you have an indigenous farmer over here and a foundation over there, and you bring in more to the table, just acknowledging this is going to be uncomfortable and weird. And we're all gonna fall on our faces more than a dozen times. But that's how we're going to progress progress through this conversation, which is all really new and exciting. And I think in the absence of that, it's just everyone just kind of defaults into the their usual modes. So I think what I've been talking about is trying to create those spaces and the permission to make mistakes in this space and, and just to begin to have this dialogue where we really really need it.

Thank you for saying that Travis. I feel I feel like you really hit that nail on the head because there's so much learn Being an unlearning to do in this. I know I'm on my own personal journey with this. And having this foundation of humility, I think is really imperative. And I want to go back up to a question that we had from Tamra. And I want to pitch this to the panelists. I don't know if you saw this. She's curious about how do you feel about executive D and I roles? She talks about, you know, she has, you know, and she's in an organization, you know, where you have this leader, but there's no buy in. So I would love to know, someone from the panelists that they could take this and address this for Tamra. Yeah.

Yeah, and for me, I have been in the DE and I space for over 25 years. So, you know, with that, if the, in the question had to do with at that organization, that they did not have a DE and I leader, they had a panel of employees. That is, I mean, I hate to be kind of the naysayer or kind of put water on your parade, that is not a recipe for success. Because when it's led by employees, and you don't have senior leadership buy in, then it's more of like an affinity group where this is just kind of extra credit where people were just doing this work, it is not going to be successful. Or let me say differently, you're not going to reach the kind of success that ultimately is going to change culture, going to change systems, that's going to impact the bottom line. And that was in some of the panel's references earlier, that if an organization does not take it serious and invest the resources, then it's it's not going to sustain. So yes, you need leadership on that. But even the leader has to be equipped and has to know what they're doing specifically, and have the skill set to be able to lead this work.

Such good context, anybody else want to jump in?

Kevin is spot on. And he said, you know, in the NBA, and kudos to Kevin, who's been around for 25 plus years doing the work and doing intentionally, but it's so critical that it starts at the top. It's not bringing in a dei manager or an affinity group, you know, it's starting with someone that is aligned with the CEO and ownership and executive team and doing the work intentionally throughout the organization. And how does it fall into the ROI and it doesn't fall on the shoulders of one executive? And I'm that person. After George Floyd. They look to every black executive in the organization's to answer questions. And that is not the work of these executives. This is for everyone, as we've talked about, and so the intentionality and long term, you know, some of those plans and strategies that were put in place after summer of 2020. And the kid the murders in Atlanta, have now gone away from budgets. And so she talks about the intentionality and long term is committing and doing the work and holding everyone accountable and not just falling on the diverse employees, or just this DE and I executive.

Preska, what about you?

I mean, I thought everything Ashley just said, it's exactly like the CEO has to be a partner, right? And the C suite have to be partners to the chief diversity officer, they have to be partners, they have to look to that person as the expert and take their advice and guidance. That's the only way it works.

I mean, okay, this conversation, it's it's so in alignment with our values of how we want to show up as an organization and what we've even seen, just make community happen, you know, and we show up in this way. So I want to talk about building the space where everyone matters. And Kevin, the case study you have at the Cavs is just so fascinating, when she was talking about the inclusive community that you've built, and how can we kind of take some of those principles to create more inclusive workplaces too. And so take us take us into your cool story.

And I gotta give Kevin's boss a shout out, Kevin and I have actually had this conversation. Who had I don't remember Kevin, if it was the owner, or your manager that stepped forward and said, We're going to make this we're going to be the best at this, we're going to be a culture that defines this. So kudos to your, your leadership for that.

Yeah. And actually, that's where it would start from our ownership team led by our chairman, Dan Gilbert. And as Ashley knows, with the NBA team, you don't do anything that's forward facing that is going to have any kind of positive or negative impact on a team without the owner of the team giving a thumbs up. So the work in which you've seen that we've done has full support of our ownership or shuts out our chairman, Dan Gilbert, and then kind of cascading down to our senior leadership team. And kind of what Prescott said before our entire leadership team starting with our CEO, who was Nick bar law shoe, he and I have done podcast together that talks and where he's talked about what it takes as a white male, to lead this work. So yeah, I have the title. But at the end of the day, he's leading the work because he's giving me the resources and the support, and he's leading the tone from a culture standpoint, and that's internally and externally. So what we've tried to do and it's been For years since, since I actually came on board to kind of create our DE and I team that now has evolved into our social impact and equity team. We started really for four months identifying what do our team members feel? And we call our employees, team members, what do they feel? What did they think? What do our fans, what do they feel? What do they think? What do our suppliers feel? What did they think? Everybody in our ecosystem. So our plan is built around everybody, we interface with fans, suppliers, team members. So with that, we then built our strategy around that there were some commonalities when across that, and what we identified, there were two or three key points, one of which is we weren't as inclusive as we, perhaps we thought we were. So we identified what we could do to be more inclusive. Secondly, we hadn't really defined what equity meant. So we had determined, but nobody really knew what that meant. So we then defined it, and then talked about behaviors that were driving the kind of we identified the behaviors that we wanted. And we have those behaviors as identifying factors, identifiable factors for our organization. And then the last thing that we did was I've mentioned before, but I just gotta tell you in business, and doesn't matter if it's not profit, or, or for profit, when this work is not tied to that, that motivates people to do their job, it's not going to get done. So it's been tied from last two years, to performance development, and compensation, because that's the language that we speak for everything else. We don't ask people just to go out and work just because it's the right thing to do. It's purposeful, it's tied back to our organizational objectives, our organization's mission, and the values of our organization. So that's how we have been able to do that in two minutes or less, to connect the dots to that drives the organization on an ongoing basis.

What you've built, Kevin is just so beautiful. And I just want to lift it as a pro tip for everybody, this notion of listening. And I think that has been so powerful for your community. Kevin, you don't just target one specific, maybe it's your season ticket holders or your sponsors, you listen to everyone. And this is not antithetical to us and nonprofit This is how we build relationships with people who care about our missions. And so I thank you for that. I also just want to put another heart on Sonia's comment in the chat, I think it's absolutely spot on and just love it. And as we're starting to wind down a little bit, I have one more question for Ashley and I, and we just like to hit these things right between the eyes and address the elephant in the room. And we're just hearing even in 2023, you just hear these complaints that Dee and I efforts just lead like to the most qualified person being passed over, you know, for the sake of meeting a diversity quota. And I just feel like that is a myth. And yet, there's still so many C suites that like failed to reflect on diversity of communities. And I want you to talk a little bit about how you've seen this and kind of dispel that myth for us.

Absolutely. I'm super nervous, like, I'm

ready to go put me on camera for

misguided and we can use the C suite representation. And as an example, it's I'm always shocked that people assume that folks are unqualified. Like, that's the basic foundation disbelief that women, people of color, openly gay, LGBTQ staff members are there to fill a quota versus earn their spot, you know, and we have to kind of peel back our own assumptions of where we are, and you know, who we are and what we believe in why, and it's uncomfortable conversations, but it's healthy. And that's good as that gets us to, you know, movement and traction to where we need to go and grow. And I often hear, Oh, you know, we need to hire the right person and not just hire, you know, people based on color. And, you know, why do you assume the person of color was not the best person? You know, and how are you reaching out and recruiting it? And so it goes back to our original notion of why do we believe a C suite? person looks like what gentleman's view of a white male, I mean, you can go back to the 80s. And I'm aging myself, you know, you think about the kind of power on Wall Street and those that ideas and then women who were trying to break into the C suite, wearing big shoulder pads, because that's, that's the power look, right? But women carry on the largest amount of master's degrees in this country. And so to say that these women are not qualified. It's just based off an assumption. And that's not to say every black woman with a master's degree is qualified, but there's statistics to back up at least one, you know, on paper that the education experiences there, you know, in this case, and so, again, the myth that that's there and then how you engage No, I attended a historically black college university, how organizations engaging in meeting these HBCU graduates where they are another diverse communities, you know, it's not LinkedIn, it's not just India, you know, how are you engaging, you know, this first piece of breaking free from these myths freeing yourself of the notion that just automatically hire any diversity hire.

I mean, I love this conversation because of just the diversity of the voices and experiences among this panel today. And you know, from hanging around the podcast, we are going to ask you what your one good thing is. And before I go into that, I want to lift because I see you in the comments. I know, you're in a big story like Kevin's, I can feel the same way too. It's like, the pro team probably has this massive budget, or they have all these fans. But it also just points to what are the principles? What are the, you know, habits that are underneath the surface? And what I heard is that you're listening, I mean, still to have a budget at all, and still prioritize listening, I think says so much, Kevin, about how you approach the work. So as I ask for your one good thing, I'll just ask for, you know, what are something that is really applicable? What is something that you see as a principle that could really speak to people today that are listening, we have such a diverse array of people listening today. So we'll

start with you. I feel like honored to be alongside these other panelists. And what I heard them say really echoes with me. And it's it's Deeds, not words, I loved what Ashley said about put it in your plan. And you know, Prisca, talking about like leadership, really putting it in action as far as like a CEO, director level, and Kevin echo that as well, I think it's, it's enough, enough time around talking. And yes, putting it into action means risk and mistakes. But that's how we grow.

Fantastic. presco. What about you,

just really quickly, following up on what Ashley said, Have an open mind, I've been in many meetings where we evaluate senior leaders to come into the company. And sometimes white guys just come in, because they're the white guy who's gonna get that job. But whenever it was a diverse candidate, they were always scrutinized in a way that the white guys weren't. So that is a reality that happens. So have an open mind that sometimes there are different standards, and with a diverse candidate, then steps into that very big role. We have to set them up for success. And sometimes these companies just don't do that. So when you see someone fail, don't think like, oh, it's because they weren't qualified, have an open mind. Maybe it's because they weren't set up for success. Right. And so I think when it comes to diversity, and seeing that and just just have an open mind and understand that, you know, sometimes we're not set up for success, and that's the reason why it's not happening.

Okay, Ashley, what you got left?

Prisca nailed it. That was it. I mean, being set up for success, and the intentionality in the work and being authentic in the work we do at any level. To Kevin's point, I've been on the community side. And having that same approach, I think, what's the long term plan is just not on at the moment is just not external, do the work internally within yourself, but also within your organization and team within those four walls. That's critical. Before you go put out a press release about a big donation that you've made. You know, do the work inside your organization and build those relationships partner with your DE and I, be a thought leader, be a thought leader and be partners and be open and have dialogue have the uncomfortable conversations. That's how you move forward.

I love that we just talked about that in our last session about having a bravery mindset and how that actually improves our empathy and improves our world and improves our health. So that's great one, Kevin, round us out, bring us home. Sure. So

I have two thoughts. And the first is I've been going back in the chat to the comment that was made earlier with someone was saying, Oh, it's the calves, you all this is a lot easier for you versus nonprofit, it's the exact same, it's the same principles, the same values are the same. And for the individual who was reaching out, I even put my email in there, please follow up with me. And I can give you more directly just to help you. But I would say two things. Keep this work simple. If you really think about what we're talking about is creating an environment where everybody can bring their best to the organization to be able to deliver the results that they were hired to deliver. Now I know that's much simpler said than done. But that's really what we're talking about how do we create an environment where I can be my best without having to carry all the weight of all that extra stuff that organizations put on my back where I can just walk into organization. And that organization actually acknowledges that because I'm a black male, I have a unique life's experience. It is going to help our organization. It's a different point of view, with no judgment.

There's just so much love on this panel and I thank you for the way you all move through this world. I want to thank everybody who came into the chat and I even say to Tamra if you want to go further into Kevin's story or if anyone wants to. Julia we're going to have you drop the podcast up So because we talk about how Kevin has put this work into small nonprofits, and I think there's also a great part in there, Kevin about how you've really taken on the helm of being an ally to white men, and to teach them how to really pour into this, and we need more allies in this. So if any part of this conversation him as giving you joy, or made you uncomfortable, then I think we're doing the work, right, truly I do. And I want to throw out one I'm giving my one good thing, I haven't done this yet. But I'm going to, there's a fantastic book called collecting courage. That is the story that's curated by a group of black fundraisers and sharing their experiences and nonprofit and I will tell you, I know many of them, and my eyes were opened when I read this book about things that I did not see and experience. And I think as we continue to expand our hearts, we've got to keep learning. We've got to keep listening to your point, Kevin, and called each other accountable. So thank you to all of our incredible panelists, thank you for the knowledge you've brought and the human beings that you continue to be in this world.

And I would say these are all humans that are incredible people to follow. Like as we talked about building your own personal board of directors. By following the people on this call, they're going to help expand your mind and Kenny keep this top of mind. So incredible humans, go back and listen to these podcasts. So grateful that you joined us. Thank you so much. We'll see you at the next one.

Great and for all of you take care.

Thanks so much for being here. We hope you're loving the summer of Evolution Series. And to learn more you can head over to we are for good.com/evolution All the playlists resources and other ways to help you get inspired and activated this summer. We'd also love for you to join the conversation. Share what you're learning on social media, or join us at our free community at We Are For Good community.com Bonus points for snapping a picture and showing us where you're listening from. Can't wait for the next conversation. See you soon friends.