Hello, welcome to our podcast. I am Mariana Pena, I'm a learning designer, I work with entrepreneurs, business owners, thought leaders, speakers, anybody who is an expert in their field, and I help them transform their knowledge into a learning product. And with me today is my co host, Danbee Shin, and I'll let her introduce herself.
Hi, it's Danbee. I'm a mentor for web designers and a global inclusion specialist. I work with web designers through my online courses, and also one on one to help them earn full time incomes as freelancers. And in my capacity as a global inclusion specialist, I help business owners make their programs or businesses or communities more globally inclusive, and I have a feeling we'll dive into what that means for me. On today's episode, we're talking all about anti oppressive learning.
This is such a hot topic, and I love it. What is an anti oppressive learning product? In your words, what would you say it is?
For me the way oppression shows up in learning is when people in positions of power are normally the people doing the teaching reinforce really harmful stereotypes based on different areas of your of who you are, right, your nationality, your first, second, third languages where you are in the world. And they're they tend to enforce systems where the learning process is easier or more difficult for different people. And when I talk about anti oppressive learning products, it's about making sure that learning experience is a positive experience for everyone.
I agree with you and everything you said. And I would also include the fact that people tend to forget that they're dealing with human being I know, it sounds ridiculous, but it is true. So to me, anti oppressive learning products are on top of everything you mentioned, is in taking into account that you're working with human beings who are in constant evolution, and who have a set of emotional baggage that they are bringing with them. And there is nothing wrong about that emotional baggage. In fact, we can use it to help them further. But yes, that is like in general terms, what we see as an anti oppressive learning products. Now, we both work in different industries, you mentioned you are primarily focused on supporting web designers mentoring them, I worked with course creators into how can we shape their life's work and turn it into a learning product that they can use to generate revenue in their business. And despite of the difference in the industries, I feel that we have this common ground that we are both trying to achieve? Were with the work that we're doing with our clients, what are what would you say, are the main things that you see in play, when you're trying to develop an anti oppressive learning product? Is there a particular thing that you pay attention to in
my work, it's really important that I consider where my clients are. So if I'm doing one on one, work with them, I have hours when I do my best work, and I want to make sure that they get me at those hours. So I'm not doing calls in super early in the morning, or late in the evening, because my brain stops working in the same way in those times. And I want to take that into consideration for them. Also, if we're meeting for one on one calls, where we do really like a brain intensive work, when we want to meet, it also comes down to I'm running a business, right? How do we want to talk about payment? And how that factors into what they like, what are they getting out of our work together? And how is that reflected in the payment, whether that's like the amount, whether that's payment plans, whether that's the currency they pay me in, whether that's the method, whether they're using a credit card, bank payment, like all of these things happen? Before a lot of the learning happens. You I think you said either just now or in a previous conversation that learning really is about evolution and growth. And before that, because that takes time right before that happens. Your experience together starts with a business transaction. And I think that really influences the whole experience. So that's one area another area to think about is just communication. The clients I work with are multilingual English might be their first language might be their second or third. And there are because we live in a world where the English is the dominant language. There's so many expectations around How you should speak English, how you should communicate, whether that's written or those are texts, or whether those are voice notes. I feel like there's a lot of baggage around what people think is like the normal or the proper, or the professional way to communicate. And I like talking about my clients up front, like, how do you want us to stay in touch between our calls? Yeah. And I also like taking into consideration like, what has your previous experience? If we're doing a I'm thinking one on one mentorship right now, but what's your experience with similar processes? similar experiences been like what like you say emotional baggage, like, what are you bringing to this relationship? What do I need to know? This is one area, like, I'll admit, is the area where I feel like I need the most work, because it's hard to take on someone's emotional baggage, not that my job is to take it on, but to take into consideration and the way I communicate with my clients or the way I work with them, but I want to know, and I don't like it when I'm learning from someone, and they don't take the time to get to know that. Yes,
that is so true. And because my field is learning, education, teaching, and learning, and everything is in that arena, something that I always tell my clients is we cannot avoid the fact that we are complex individuals, we would love to have a robot enrolling into our course. And then we exclusively focus on information. And that's it. That's not true. Most of entrepreneurs are wearing several different hats, no matter where they are in their business journey, if they are working towards their six figures, if they are, like cashing seven figures a month, no matter where they are wearing different hats at all time. And that plays a role in how we acquire new information. And when we combine that with the fact that we're human beings live in lives and existing in a world that is a very complicated world, we have to also be aware of the emotions that are involved. Something that happens quite often, and I would love for it to disappear, is some records that people tend to go for that is related to shame. It's almost like people use shame, to try to incentivize those students or their learners or their clients into moving forward faster. And you might not be aware that you're doing this, but it happens a lot. Shame can be instructed explicitly, or implicitly, more often than not, is implicitly by what your copies saying, how you are teaching. So anti oppressive learning products have to be very careful with the interaction part of it when we are developing. When we're developing a product. I'm constantly reminding myself but also my client, what is going to happen at this point? Where are they in their lives at this point? Are you working with working parents? Are these what they call side hustlers? Are you working with full time? Intrapreneurs? Have they taken a course before? And if so, what was the experience? And all of that is going to impact what we create not only in the curriculum, but in the learning environment that we create for the program. And
I feel like shame is so heavy, and it's everywhere. And it's not obvious, like you said it often is very implicit, because I for most of the time that I've been running my business, I was in Asia, either Singapore or South Korea and the people I was learning from, or mostly in the US, I had super early calls or very late night calls to participate in certain programs. And the person leading the program, I think they intended it really I think they did intended as a compliment to say, look at Danby, she's showing up at six o'clock in the morning, because she is so committed to her business. It didn't make me feel good. Because in my head, I was like, why are you not? If you appreciate the fact that I'm showing up at this time? Why are you not making it easier for me? Why am I sacrificing my health, like my physical health and my mental health to show up this way? And I wasn't the only person in that program. It was a small group, but I wasn't the only person in the program who was in Asia. So what does that say to the other person who wasn't there at six o'clock in the morning? Because it was probably five o'clock in the morning for them. Or it doesn't even matter what time really? It was right. And I think that's why it's so difficult because this person I think, really meant to pay me a compliment to really say, Look, they're so committed. And it brings up another other example there's so many are there were someone From similar circles said, oh, this person, this business owner, English is their second language and look at like the copy that they were able to write. And I found it really condescending and internalizing. I think they meant it as a compliment. But all it said was, it's not really up to standard, but it's really good because clearly English is good. Yeah, exactly. And you said you don't people are people in your programs are like human beings with complex lives, I have this like memory that plays over and over again, in my mind once in a while this happened when I was an undergraduate student. So it was a long time ago. Sadly, it was a long time ago. And there was this white American exchange student who was in my I didn't know him very well, but he was in my general like social circle. And we were like, at a bar, we were out as a group. And he and I just happened to have a quiet moment. And he'd said something like, he complimented my English and said something like, oh, when I'm speaking to you, I'm speaking like 95% of my English, as if to say he had to dumb down his English in order to communicate with me. And these are instances, these are just all examples of people thinking. They're doing you, they're paying you a compliment, they're seeing your work, they're seeing your effort, but just reinforcing these really harmful stereotypes, really harmful ideas that people who look like me aren't as good, need to work more need to work harder. And when they do, it's normal. And it should be like celebrated, the extra work I do should be celebrated versus and it's this is not real celebration, right? This is condescending, like, pat on the back, good job, good girl type of celebration, instead of looking at the environment that they've created to see. Yeah, like, how can we create an environment where people don't have to work harder, just because of who they are? Where they are? This
has so many layers to it, because what is the opposite of an anti oppressive learning product? And I'm sitting here thinking, Is it a product that it's trying to give us liberation for us? Like for all of us? Is it a product that is trying to break old mall, I would like to think that at the very least, is a product that is not replicating harmful structures. If you don't have if we don't have yet the answer of what the opposite is, at least we're not adding on what is already there. It makes me think of this, like the false idea of meritocracy that people from the south we have to earn it, whereas people from the north they deserve. They deserve it. It makes me think of proximity to power is such an attractive magnetizing concept. Because, again, when you come from an oppressed, traditionally oppressed background, you know that in order to move forward, you need to you need to be close to powerful people, even if they are being condescending towards you. Even if they are looking at you as our look at you value and Miss beginning lesional We thought of the angles just just have to suck it up for a while. And then I'll be able to do that we feel like that. And we operate like that, because we exist in an oppressive system. So when we are creating learning products, we are really trying to counteract those structures, I think and when it comes to learning, something that I love doing is debunking myth about learning. There's no such thing as learning
styles. I've been waiting to get to hear you talk more about this. And the reason
for me, this connects with anti oppressive learning products is because it is just a fad. It is something that happened at some point in the education world. And it has been since debunked, it has been proven, complete fallacy is not a thing. It has no scientific background, but it sounds great in marketing copy. But what it creates now is an learning environment where people think that they can create courses that are exclusively audio. And that's going to work great because if you're an audio learner, you're gonna love it and you're gonna be able to implement faster and people will. On the opposite end people create these like super expensive fancy videos, heavily edited, thinking that if you're a visual learner, that's gonna cater to your learning style and you're gonna learn more and faster and all that is doing is just creating cognitive overload. Your brain cannot process that you're receiving too much input or if it's exclusively Audio not enough input and oppression makes us think that we can put ourselves into a very single tiny box and operate from them. And anti oppressive learning products are products that are aware that you need as much support as you can get. So yes, if you want to create an audio course, that's great, but still, that's not going to ensure that you're going to learn because your brain still needs the other types of input. Because what you want is a successful learning journey. And a successful learning journey means that you're able to perform at a certain level. So competence and skill has to be developed and competence and skill are not going to be developed by listening to a part really.
I thought that's all we needed. I'm
sorry to say that because it would be so easy, right? We can just
like download information, I was mostly done
with it done and done. But no, our brain is a very complex thing. And learning requires a lot of different phases. So I'm sorry, but there's no such things as learning styles, you might prefer to start at some point, like you might prefer to start with listening to something. But in order to be able to achieve competence, you need to go through all the phases and all the resources and everything in between. So
Jokes aside, I really do wish learning was as easy as plugging a cable to my head and downloading information. So what you're saying is this whole thing where I learned this when I was I think in middle school, like some people are visual learners, auditory learners, or kinetic learners. So that's not got science behind it. And that means that when we create courses, programs, podcasts, maybe depending on the purpose of the podcast, we need to take more into consideration. And I know this is like the work that you do like this is the core of your expertise. But can you dig a little beneath the surface and share like, what are like when you talk about phases? What does that mean?
So for example, let's say you love podcasts, and you feel that really, you're really learning from it. I believe that you feel that I believe that you are retaining information in your head from what you heard, because the podcast was very interesting, the conversation was very engaging. That doesn't mean though, that first you're going to be able to synthesize what happened in that conversation. Synthesis is a very important part of the learning process, because it helps you extract what your brain needs in order to implement. So when I say competence, or performance, really what I'm saying is implementation. And implementation requires a thing or two that has to do with you extracting what is important from that conversation that you heard from that video lesson that you watched. And then that you're able to anchor that on to something that you already had in your head anchoring with previous knowledge is key for a successful learning experience. Why? Because learning happens in a compounding effect, learning doesn't happen in isolation. There's no successful learning happening just because, Oh, I saw how atoms work. And now I know everything about chemistry, how does it apply to my life that has no that has no meaning to my life, it gets to enter my world when now I am able to think Wait, hold on. So if these substance is repelling this other substance, that means that my makeup, the base that I use, has to not repel the primer that I use, because otherwise I'm gonna have a piling issue in my face.
I love the practicality of this.
This is where learning happens. Now, it doesn't stop there, where learning really anchors into your brain for long life success is where I take it one step further. I'm like, Okay, so now when I buy, and I apply my makeup, I'm gonna keep that in mind. So the next time that I am purchasing makeup, and the next time that I'm learning application techniques, I know that because of chemistry, and what I learned about substances and how they react to each other, I know what to buy. I'm not going to waste money on this, I'm going to be wiser about choosing my products. And I'm going to know what to look for as far as tutorials learn about the application of this particular substances, and it's going to look great on my face. Now, I have achieved competence when I am able to apply those things, and I look exactly how I want it to look like that is a complete learning journey. If I do Stay at the face of that podcast was very interesting. That doesn't mean that the next time I'm gonna do my makeup is magically gonna look amazing. So if we take that example, and we extrapolate that to our business, it is the same. I get here everyday, like all day long conversations about copy techniques, how to write for your target audience how to create your avatar, oh, that's the reading, it's engaging, I would love to do that. But just by listening to that podcast doesn't mean that I'm going to be able to perform and obtain that result, which is where people get lost, because they are not completing the learning journey. And one thing that is crucial that I didn't mention in the makeup example, because it happens inherently, when you're doing it is the feedback point. In order for you to have a successful learning journey, there has to be a feedback point, or at least one several would be better, because you have to get feedback on whether or not your performance is going well, or not. So with the makeup part, my feedback is immediate, because I can see if it's working or not, right, I don't have to turn around and ask my friend, do you think this look orange, like I don't have to go there, I can see it myself. But look for many things that are more complex in our businesses, we do need feedback. So for learning products, that are usually Group offers, there has to be a moment where you can receive individualized feedback. And that feedback can look like somebody answering your question, or it can look like self assessment tools, which that's another topic. But there has to be feedback because your brain has to know explicitly, are we moving forward in the right direction? Or how do we correct this direction. So
what you're saying is specifically when it comes to learning styles, which is so prevalent in all the marketing that we see around learning products online, if you're really hyping up a specific learning style, the trap you might be falling into is you're not considering that complete process that your customers, your students have to go through in order to get something valuable out of to get what you're promising, which is presumably some sort of outcome where they implement what they learn. And that is, yeah, that is not in line with what we want to create. When we talk about anti oppressive learning techniques, learning products, we want to recognize that people are multi layered and complex. And they need more than just like a one dimensional flow of information for them to be able to use that in their businesses. Yes,
that's exactly it. And I'm curious, for example, because you work with a lot of web designers at different stages in their business, but you also work. You also have clients who are course creators, you are now a course creator yourself. When you are preparing to promote the products or supporting your clients to promote their own services. What do you tell them to pay attention to? Because I know there are a few things that I've learned from you. But I would like to hear from your own words, in
terms of promoting your course or program, like how
do you guide them so that they don't fall trap of oppressive techniques when doing so for
me, a lot of it goes around, like thinking about where your buyers are. So I feel like, it's not so much like the exact thing that you do like that the thing, the example I have in mind is like countdown timers to show if you have like a live element to your program, or if you have a special promotion that you're writing that is time sensitive. Some people really some people in the ethical marketing space really don't like countdown timers, because they can cause anxiety for certain folks. For me, it depends on like, why you're using it. If you're talking about like time sensitive issues, and you have people all around the world, I think it's a really powerful and useful tool to use to just be super clear in the way you communicate. You can say this date at this time in this time zone or like these time zones. But you're recognizing that's different for every single person who's looking at your sales page, for example. And the countdown timer tells them what info like that is personalized information that is automated. I always say pay attention to the currency that you use. I know that a lot of us use dollars. And yeah, I know like we live. I run my business in US dollars because it is still the global currency. But it's not a given like when you can use $1 sign there are like 20 plus different dollar currencies around the world. I've lived in Hong Kong and Singapore. I haven't lived in all the countries in the world but of the countries I've lived in two of them use the dollar. So it's not just a given and I always specify that my prices are in US dollars. And that also might feel like a really small thing but that sends a signal by Putting down three letters on your sales page, you're breaking by that assumption, that standard that $1 is a US dollar. Now I'm picking on the US dollar, because a lot of us use US dollars in our business. Nobody's
This is the greatest example ever. Because when I learned that from you, I was like, This is so simple. I can do this right now I can change this right this second. And it made me feel validated. Because for example, in Mexico, the same for the Mexican Pesos is exactly the same as for the dollars is exactly the same sign, it is not worth the same is not the same currency. So when I see that somebody uses that sign, and next to the amount it says USD, instead of M xn. I just feel validated. I'm like, Oh, thank you for that clarification. Yeah.
And it makes people feel seen, but it's Oh, you are recognizing that my world is different, like my reality is different. Yeah, I also I encourage people to talk about whether they have written content in addition to because often we get video and audio content. And I love how when we talk about like making things, anti oppressive, more inclusive, we're always thinking if we make it more inclusive for one group of people, it becomes more inclusive for everyone. And one of the examples is, do you have closed captions, you have subtitles? Do you have transcripts for your video and audio content? Because this is a personal kind of vulnerability of mine. I don't know. I think this goes deeper than I can get into on this podcast. But I watch a lot of TV shows with the subtitles on it as an English show. Same and though I've been speaking English for, I don't know what the number is, but I've been speaking it for almost 30 years. Like, I speak English, by the fact that I watch with the subtitles on, like pokes at what's the word and insecurity perhaps that this is still my second language. I remember I was old enough when I learned English to remember what it felt like to not speak English in a in an environment where everyone spoke English. That was proper immersion language learning. So when you have people learning from your programs from all around the world who speak English as an additional language, it was a really long way to say before they buy, do you have subtitles? Are they AI generated? Because if they are, they're not perfect, and it causes even more confusion. Sometimes when the subtitles say you're saying something when you're saying something completely different? And do you have transcripts, because that can be so helpful for people even if you don't have real time closed captions. And of course, you're probably thinking if you've been in this kind of inclusive design space, you're thinking accessibility at this point, because Oh, yeah, like not everyone can hear, maybe they're deaf, maybe they're hard of hearing. And we always think of closed captions for those situations. Which is why when I say this is what I mean, when I say like when you make it more inclusive. And when you push against the oppressive systems that we live in, like you're making it so much better for everyone. So that's something I encourage people to talk about in in their sales copy, because people do make decisions based on things like that. Because, again, it seems like a small thing. But it shows people that these are things that you're actively thinking about and investing time in and putting effort into. And that matters, that
matters. And for most of us, whether we see ourselves as freelancers, contractors, business owners, entrepreneurs, CEOs, whatever it is, we're most of us on the personal brand, realm. And for a personal brand, it is extremely important to be very clear about your values, and people tend to think my values is gonna be like a very small part of my website, like right at the footer, you can click on About Us or about me, and then you can see what I believe in and then check that know your values are everywhere. So when you are taking the time to care for your customers, clients and students, by doing these little things, you are embodying your values, it is in your best interest to do that. Because then the potential clients that you are going to attract, they will say yes, because they are aligned with that. And if they're not aligned with that, they will simply not click and buy.
Yeah, I feel like what's important in the grand scheme of things is that you are presenting yourself as the person providing the information, the knowledge, and all these things like saying that you have closed captions, putting your currency down, that is over reflection of the experience that people are going to get inside once they buy.
Yes. And for example, I'm thinking most of the programs that people bring me on to audit because that's one of my services. People work with me when they are happy when they have a very successful program and they are looking to enroll more students, they hire me, because they want to make sure that their learning journey is not replicating systems of oppression, basically, of course, I look at the curriculum, and I take into account these things that we have mentioning. But another thing that I also look at is the guest experts, and what type of examples they are using within their lessons. Storytelling is very popular right now, people like to teach via storytelling, and I love that as a vehicle for learning. But more often than not the stories that they are telling the example that they are using, and the guest experts that they are inviting, they all look the same, they all come from the same place. They all, they all sound the same. So that is something that if you are hosting a group program, or a group offer where people are learning from you, you can start looking into those choices.
I really want to talk about positioning, positioning yourself as the white savior in in this because it's so closely related. When you talk about the stories that you tell that's to to reinforce ideas you're teaching, but also just positioning yourself as Why are you the person to teach to do this work? But I feel like I want to keep this conversation focused. Why Savior ism, the white savior complex is a story we can save for another day.
Yes, its own episode, I think. Yeah, actually, yeah, it could very well be okay. So because we love giving people action steps that they can take with them. What would you invite people if they are discovering that they can create anti oppressive learning products? What would you tell them?
If you're creating a product, I would bet good money that you have been a part of many other programs. So I think a great place to start is to think about your own experience. And think about even if you are a learner with lots of privilege, think about experiences you've had, I bet you can point to experiences where you're like, Oh, that's a bit weird, or oh, that made me feel a bit strange, or this person said this, and it stayed with me, I would spend some time reflecting on your own learning experience. Yeah. And obviously, like I love asking for feedback. Actually, I don't love asking for feedback. But I love the outcome of the process of asking for feedback and learning from what you hear. Because it's not always fun to get feedback. And I want to acknowledge that it's not, it's not a fun process. But if you're creating something, you probably hopefully already have an audience that you're learning from, to figure out how best to serve them, I would talk to them and ask them about their past learning experiences so that you can incorporate their experience into the thing that you're making. Now,
that's a good one. That's a good one. I think this doesn't require an financial investment. It does require and care and time. But if you're in the business of educating people, then you should care. I would like to invite them to if they are hosting a learning experience to see themselves as a guide or a host, rather than someone on a pedestal that has all the answers. Humble yourself be humble enough to say, You know what, I'm not sure about this. We're going to open the floor, who has some input about this, that goes a long way. That's leadership, that's an anti oppressive lens. And people are going to love that because it makes them feel that it is okay to not know everything.
And it's okay to ask the people there. I really felt when you said that, because I don't know when the last time is that I saw that done. And it's so powerful.
Yeah, I haven't. And I've heard so many answers. I haven't I know for a fact that's wrong. And I go, Oh my God, if you would only allow us to give some input here that will be amazing. So that's on the side of you, being the host of the program. If you're a participant of the program, I want to invite you and give you a permission slip to challenge the status quo. That means if you know that what they are saying doesn't sit well with you your values and the values of the community that you're enrolled in, ask for a moment to give that feedback and depending on how they receive that petition, then you will have your answer and do so from the place where from a place of let's make this better, right because anti oppressive means we are trying to achieve like liberation for us all. So do So from a place of let's improve this rather than shaming because I don't think shaming has a place in learning at all. So yeah, so Lord bring me no, that's that's not what I mean. We can challenge the status quo within ourselves, but also in the space that we're participating in.
Thank you so much. Oh, it's sometimes it's such a heavy, maybe not heavy. I feel like I need a lot of deep breaths together some of these topics but that are so much fun. And I'm so happy we got to talk about anti oppressive learning products today.
Yes, and if you are watching or listening and you would like to continue your journey on this, you would like to continue the conversation. Just feel free to connect with us on your socials or send us an email and we will be more than happy to continue and see how we can support your journey of time
