Hello and welcome to down to earth a podcast created by the Environmental charity hubbub. This season is all about fashion. Because would you believe it the fashion industry produces 10% of all carbon emissions and clothing production has roughly doubled since 2000. Alongside that one, that garbage truck full of clothes is being burned or dumped in landfill every second. So we want to discover why we're buying so much, and how our wardrobes impact the world around us. I'm Sarah dipole, and I've been working in the environmental space for seven years. But I've always been a big shopper. I love fashion and I love new clothes. And however much I learned about what the fashion industry is up to, I still find fast fashion a hard habit to break. And I find it really difficult to know how to dress sustainably. I know I'm not alone in that feeling. So I want to bring you with me as we meet the designers, experts and changemakers who unpick why our wardrobes aren't working for us and for the planet. Today we're talking to Amy towny, Creative Director of the fashion brand mother of pearl. She's a pioneer in the world of sustainable fashion and the start of a new documentary, batten reimagined,
as things developed, I realised the impact that fashion was having on the environment. The chemicals involved ship quantities of everything that we're making the pollution off the back of it, the carbon emissions with animals are treated. And it just goes on and on. I think if you ever just look at a product, you just have to realise it's came at a cost.
It starts Amy's journey as a fashion outsider working with a small dedicated team to create a completely sustainable collection called no frills AB Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me.
So my first question for the uninitiated, what is no frills? Yes, so
no frills was a collection that I decided to try and create about five years ago, more now actually, that's six years ago, it was basically a collection of cool classics that I could trace their sustainability credentials kind of as far as I could go and do the best possible practices. But really no frills was a concept originally, and then it was a deep dive into whether we could do it or not. And then finally, we actually made a collection, which is sort of subsequently become our core collection. And then we infiltrate everything we learned on that on that journey into everything and other info.
In the documentary, you say you want your collection to be six things, organic traceable, using minimal water and chemicals, socially responsible considering animal welfare and produced in the smallest geographical region. That's how you were going to judge how sustainable the collection was. And I wondered why you pick those things, and why you thought it was a good definition of what a sustainable collection is.
I mean, I don't I don't even like the word sustainable anymore. To be honest, it's just very hard to encompass what that actually means. So my kind of approach to sustainability is just very much like a mindset and a holistic approach. And that's like across the business and supply chains and everything that we do that we wanted to work out and how traceable we can make the product? So can we get it right back down to the farmers or the field? And what journey that government is going to have gone on and how many kinds of countries it's gone to, and how can we minimise that as much as possible? I need if we grow the cotton in a certain country, can we produce it in that same country, so it hasn't actually left and the transportation is low, then we want to make sure it's we focused on natural fibres just because at the moment the issues around Plastics of micro plastics are very complicated. And so we focus on natural fibres. So kind of how are they grown in terms of their organic farming methods? And what the practices around that? And then also, what's the social responsibility around all of that? So all people being paid a living wage, and not just obviously, you know, the factory workers, but what about the spinners, the weavers, the cotton pickers, etc. And so yeah, we tried to look at the whole kind of supply chain of a garment and all the things that went into it, and how could we do the best possible practice and minimises you know, kind of suck print.
I was just about to say that that's what comes across most clearly in the documentary is that when you're trying to make this collection, it's not just about what you're doing. It's about what everyone else in the supply chain is doing what a factory is doing with their wastewater, who are they subcontracting to, it seems like the chain goes on and on. And in 2018 At least it didn't seem like it was very common for designers and brands to go and ask these questions to factories. So I was wondering, is the supply chain any clearer and now?
No, no, I mean, the very nature of fashion supply chains is complicated because it also is based on history and And, you know, global economics. And, you know, once upon a time we had a textile industry, but then it, it moved because it was cheaper to do it somewhere else. And then after that it moves somewhere else. So, you know, there's a bit in the film where we find a great ball supply, I mean, I guess a great wall farmer in Uruguay. But then we realised the whole entire industry doesn't exist for anything after that, but it used to, but it doesn't anymore, because it was cheaper to send it over to China, etc. So we're really have made this supply chain completely global based on kind of who was offering the cheapest produced at the time. And that's just meant that it's such a fractured system. And joining the dots is really complicated, because then you're not just looking at transport, you're also looking at input deals and trades between countries and how different countries treat their workers. And you know, for instance, we produce a lot in Portugal, because it's governed by the law, and we can visit them and understand that they're, you know, a happy workforce. But, you know, if you've got five parts of the chain in a garment, and signs, those are in five different countries, what are the laws that govern the rights of the workers in those countries? And how do you vet that,
and also, who has the motivation, or even if there is motivation, who has the resources and the time to do this work, I was reading your profile in The Guardian, where you say that nothing is really sustainable, which I completely agree with. And I'm wary of brands who are putting big signs in their store saying that they have a sustainable collection, or something's part of a capsule sustainable collection. And to me, it feels really hard to know when a brand is honestly trying to do better. And when they're just making stuff up to take us to buy more.
Yeah, I mean, the truth is, anything do you make, whatever industry that you're in has a sock print like that is just if you make something you have taken resources from this planet in one form or another? And then you basically have to choose how do you take resources in the best possible practice to lead as little kind of mark on there? But then also, what are you creating? And how long is that going to live? Once it's out in the world? And then also, how do you make sure it doesn't end up, you know, back in landfill that quickly or doesn't break? Or, you know, because if you think about sustainability, you need to think about your supply chain isn't about climate impacts, you need to think about carbon, you also need to think about what you're making, what's its purpose? And what's the longevity of that product? And how do you make it as robust as possible. Denim, for instance, has a bad rap because of obviously, it's got harsh dyes, it's got hard wash in cotton is a very thirsty pesticide heavy crop if you grow it in conventional ways. And I agree with all of that. And cotton is complicated. But at the same time, a denim garment like the history of a denim garment in a way it's double stitch and the fact it has like rivets and it was designed to last. So you have to in order to truly call yourself, let's say not sustainable, because nothing sustainable about a sustainable thinker. I think it's just a full 360 approach to everything you're doing. So any brand that's just making a capsule collection and stopping at that that's not a sustainable brand, a brand that's making a sustainable capsule collection, to learn from it to infiltrate into the rest of their business. That's a sustainable brand. So I would say sustainability is just purely a philosophy rather than a tangible product. Does that make sense?
It does. And do you think that that's a philosophy that more brands are starting to pick up? What is the space like now in comparison to when you made the documentary in 2018?
I think people want to do better. And I think people feel like they have to do better now. But I think it takes a massive amount of commitment and a complete change of approach to your business. And I don't know and this just goes across humanity as well as brands but against you have to ask the question, are people willing to sacrifice or change for the greater good and I think it's that hurdle that we have to get over you know, a must for me it was like change or stop
interested as well. And what brought you to fashion in the first place? It seems like you've got like, why stretching interested in a lot of different places. And I guess fashion is in the place that most people would consider huge environmental and social action taking place. But that's what you're doing with mother of pearl. So yeah, what brought you here
to be honest, that I kind of got here by accident as in as a child, all I wanted to do was you know, art and design, I knew that I knew I was gonna take a creative career that was my pure passion, very instinctual, and fashion because textiles was something I was enjoying in my art foundation courses, but also I got quite obsessed as a young child and sort of coming from a very working class background, my social status without good clothes and when you will, a specific brand or a logo, whatever kind of, you know, the sub cultures around that the playground of what what meant what based on what you looked like, and I think okay, I'm a bit obsessed with that because I was kind of the opposite of that, but then I managed to change The way I looked, and when I changed the way I look, I was, you know, allowed into certain social situations in different ways. So I think I became obsessed about appearance at that point in my life. So I guess that's where the two things kind of merged. And then here I am, you know, 38 in the industry is not a natural fit. And I'm not a natural fit in a way. But I guess maybe that's what makes me the right person to try and change it.
Absolutely. And do you think, you know, we've five years on from that documentary, mother of pearl is a much bigger business, you've already made lots of sustainable collections. Other brands have started to copy what you're doing? Do you think it's going to be a case that legislation is going to come in and change the fashion industry? Do you think it's going to be the public start demanding change, and so we see greater change across the fashion industry.
I think all of it needs to happen. And all of it needs to change. I don't know what's going to come first. I know the legislation isn't anywhere near where it should be. So in that case, consumers need to change quicker because we've got the power, the power to change tomorrow. And so there are conversations, it is happening. I don't think it will happen quick enough as everything to do with governments and politics. I don't think anyone's acting in those positions of power as fast as they should be. So I think we have to work on it. And it's something I'm passionate about, and you know, want to spend more time trying to work on the legislative side. And but yeah, we have power as people. And I think we forget that. I mean, I think, you know, the government is trying to stop protesters. And you know, that whole thing is just so messed up. And, you know, I think it's making people sit back and not slides. And actually, I think we have so much power ourselves, you know, people aren't relating, you know, clothing to climate change, I just don't think that they're like it, why would you you know, you walk into a shop, you see a dress you want to wear, they don't connect scrunchies. And they also don't connect it to like the farmer, you know, if you buy in cotton drabs, you don't connect it to agriculture, the same way that we do our food. And that is saying, like agriculture and natural products, in terms of fashion and clothing fibres, comes from the same place, the issues that you face in cotton farming is what you've faced in industrial farming of meat and, you know, vegetables. And the thing that makes it really complicated. And I think it's so many degrees of separation and away from from the reality is that, that people haven't connected the dots. And I guess that's that's the noise we need
to make. Yeah, I was completely agree. I've been working in the environmental space for 17 years now. And I thought going into watching the documentary that I knew a lot about how supply chains worked. And I think what it really highlighted is how vast the whole system is and how difficult it is to really make change. I guess for me, it just, it raised a lot of the questions that I should be asking myself like, what is this made of? What country? Was it made in? Do I really need it? Am I going to wear it again? All of those questions that I find easy to stick to the back of my head when I'm getting ready for a party and I just really want to play something new.
Or Apple wants the most a lot of people. I get a lot of backlash now. In that call tonight. But and yeah, I got a lot of people say yeah, but you know, Mother files expensive. And it was never about that, you know, it's not about my buy my bread. This film isn't about buying my brand. This is just about buy better. But the truth is, the thing that everybody can do tomorrow is just buy less. And and question what you're buying what you want it for, you know, are you going to wear it over and over again, is going to be part of your core wardrobe. And however you dress aesthetically, it doesn't have to mean that it's black and minimal. It means that what whoever you are, and however you wear it, like just ask yourself, Do you love it? And are you going to wear it over and over again? And think it's the answer's no to any of that that's when you have to just put it back and don't don't buy it. And if you do find that you've bought something and it doesn't fit anymore, you've decided you've fallen out of love with it. No, don't put it in the bin, there's a place to sell this stuff, you know, and we've seen marketplaces now are incredible to resell. And I think it's getting out of the habit of when people buy cheap, they just throw it away. And I think you have to remember even if you bought something cheaper, and you don't feel that emotional connection to it that is not waste that like our bins shouldn't be filled. It should be empty by the end of the week, you know, because we should we shouldn't be creating the waste that we're creating, and especially not in clothing. No.
Do you think that there's room in that for a relearning of skills like people used to be able to make men's and repair a lot more of their own clothes? We're looking at a generation two generations ago. So even if you buy something cheaply on the high street or at the supermarket, and I guess a tear or a hole in it, I think we're more likely to just chuck it away now because we've lost that skill level.
Yeah, 100% and that's completely gone. I mean, you know, I remember my mother and my grandmother like men did a date. You wouldn't throw something in the bed because things were expensive, like clothes are cheaper today than they are Ever been in history? So that's the it's the only thing like everyone else has now got more expensive with inflation and the cost of living but clothes are cheaper today than they've ever been. So the relationship to that idea like of mending, why would you men sign this cost so little money and throw it in the bed. But if you stop thinking about your garments as the financial cost to you, I mean, obviously, we need to change this stuff, because that we shouldn't be able to make things that cheaply. If you remove the financial cost and think about the true cost of it, you wouldn't throw it away if you if you'd have met the people that made that garment on the way and you'd sin what their lives have been like. And you'd have seen the impact, you know, maybe don't think of the cost of it as the number think of the cost of it as the carbon that it's created. You wouldn't throw it in the bin, you know, you would respect it in a completely different way. Even if it was a polyester High Street dress.
I used to shop a lot, and I shopped fast fashion a lot, even though I worked in environmental charity, because I want to do things. And I wanted to feel nice, and maybe I felt some social pressure, especially when I first moved to London and I got a new job, but I wanted to fit in and look like everyone else. And there's a huge pressure to buy something new and to look like other people that you see every day. This year. My New Year's resolution is to not buy anything new only to buy secondhand. And it showed me how often when I get bored, I just like drift onto a fast fashion website. I'm getting advertising on Instagram all the time, because I drift onto those pages. And actually, we were talking about the fall of fashion. And the fun of this limitation for me is that I've had the chance to wear loads of stuff in my wardrobe that I completely forgot I had, there's so much stuff I probably would have chucked away I bought four years ago and just stuffed into the back of my wardrobe and never looked at it. And now that I've pulled everything out, I can see, you know, the beautiful things that I now have a chance to wear again, and finding a way to enjoy what I already have. And resist the urge to buy something new all the time.
I also find often in the past, and even today sometimes like wine clothes sometimes because I'm not feeling very good about myself, salami is now another thing. And actually, I've found that the best way to make me feel better wasn't ever really about the clothes, it was about actually when I eaten better, exercise more, felt stronger, felt mentally better. It was never really the clothes, were just trying to mask or trying to put a sticky plaster on maybe me not feeling my best self. And actually, when I worked on all the other stuff, like made sure I slept to make sure I ate well, you know, been to done exercise. Actually, my dress that I already had suddenly felt nice again, because it wasn't really ever the dress that wasn't nice in the first place. It was more I wasn't feeling great. And I don't know how many other people out there feel that like that. But, and sometimes I think that is true way to feel your best. I mean, I'm not saying everybody is out there is like that. But that was just a journey that I've gone on and kind of realised, don't buy clothes to make you feel better when the truth is, it's actually something else you need to work on.
It sounds like what you're talking about is a sea change, there's a personal shift that has to happen inside our heads to make a decision to be more sustainable. And that change has to happen within each individual person before we can all make a collective change, or at least, maybe a better way of saying that is, you know, I can change myself in a way that I think is more sustainable. And that might influence the way another person thinks, and they might be interested in making a change, and so on and so on.
Yeah. And actually that, you know, don't get me wrong, that I'm not perfect, you know, for very low times in my life. So you know, with even being a mother, I didn't have best experience my first child and probably in hindsight, when we were in lockdown probably maybe had put in a depression. I don't know. But you know, at that time, she didn't sleep and I will be lying if I wasn't on Amazon, you know, every bloody night trying to buy another sleep pay to make a sleep because I was like at rock bottom. And you know, there was packages coming through my door. Like that's not obviously I'm not saying anyone's perfect we go, we go through these stages in our lives that I guess the happiest I am is when I'd say like, I wake up. I feel like I've learned to work to do something better than doing something worse. And I wake up and I feel like I've living my life in a more kind of sustainable way. It makes me enjoy my life better because I don't feel. Yeah, I feel positive. And I feel like I'm part of the solution, not part of the problem. And I'm not saying that that's every week, but I do. I do think there's something to be said for your mental health when you're in the spirit of you know, slowing down your life and thinking about it more and making better choices. I think it makes you happier. Maybe that's just me.
But I wanted to ask you a question is at the end of the documentary. There's a stat that really shocked me and it says that the industry is set to increase by 63% over the next seven years and the documentary seems to end on quite a hopeful note. But that seems like a completely enormous and unfathomable increase. So are you hopeful about the future?
Well, honestly, that I go through phases, some days, I feel hopeful some days have felt deeply, I'm hopeful. And I read something recently and activist that said, which we've got to stop saying that it's just, it's done is over. And you know, no one's going to change, because that's just not gonna motivate anybody to do it. Humans kind of start making, I think humans are more empowered to change where they feel inspired to change that, rather than doomsday is common and that I think a lot of people then just kind of like, sort of hide away and just accept defeat. Yeah, I think it's a roller coaster of a ride mentally to go down. And but I think, actually, in these times, where it is quite dark, when you eat, you know, kind of what's going on and the information out there, I tell you what, what it is, is when I follow people that are doing things, right, you know, it's I'm listening to Russell Brand, and, you know, following activists and hearing what they're saying, you know, and looking at what other tribes are saying, and meeting and having, you know, exciting, positive meeting with another company or organisation or activists that are doing the things I feel better. And then when I go into a room of people that I'm trying to change that don't want to change, I feel utterly depressed. So I think surround yourself with people that are doing things to make change, and don't surround yourself with people that aren't and that will hopefully give us the view or as the hope to, you know, keep doing things better. And I guess we just can't admit defeat right now. You know, even if some days it doesn't feel good. Like, it's Now's not the time to sit back. Now's the time to stand up. Yeah.
And my final question that I have the that we asked everyone is what is one big change that you think could happen in the fashion industry tomorrow, that would have a really big impact? And what's one thing that you think that people at home listening right now could do to make a change?
Yeah, so one thing in the industry that needs to change is legislation. So there is a big act, happening in America, I think it's called me smashing out the carbon budget. If you go in fashion, reimagine website, all the legislation, things are on there. But there is one there's going through at the moment or being discussed, which is companies trade, I think it's over 10 million have to trace, map out 40% of their supply chain, something like that. It's more complicated than that. But it's huge. Like for big businesses, that is huge. And so I think if something like that passes, then that will be hopefully the kind of ripple effect that we need. Because what you've got to remember, the real complexity about fashion is the global supply chain, because we have to navigate economics and politics and global issues. But what makes the global part great is that if somebody puts out a legislation change in a country, whose everybody trades with that country in one way or another fashion, you know, every big brands here or in Italy, or Paris, or what Whoever sells in New York, they're going to have to change the way that they do things if they want to trade with that country. So basically, you know, what's great about the global supply chain is that if we all trade internationally, so if somebody makes some decisions in one country, potentially we're all going to have to change because we trade in with those countries. So I think if we can see legislative change like that, that will be incredible. And, and then one thing you can all do at home is as Vivienne Westwood says buy less buy better.
Okay, time for a quick debrief. I really hope you enjoyed my chat with Amy Pountney for mother appel. If you haven't seen it already, you can catch her documentary, passion reimagined, which is available on Skype documentaries and on the streaming service. Now, I think what I took away from that conversation is that whatever budget you're on, there's something that we can all do to extend the life of our clothes and to make our wardrobes more sustainable. It's not about having to buy the most expensive thing. It's really about falling in love with what you already have. Making sure that we take care of it the best we can and really thinking about when you do buy something new, what's gone into making it if you've been inspired to make a change, or if you're already making wine, we would love to hear about it. You can find me on my email sarah@hubbub.org.uk Or you can find us on all the usual socials. And if you're quick enough, we might even read it out on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening. This podcast was presented by me Sarah duyvil, created by hubbub and produced by any day
