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David Harstein: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

David Harstein

Julie Confer52min

Becky Endicott

00:00

Hi friends. Welcome back to How It's Built, a series where we explore the intricate and often overlooked elements that go into crafting impactful change. Brought to you by our friends at Allegiance Group and Pursuant.

Jonathan McCoy

00:12

Yes, they're fueling nonprofit missions with innovative solutions in digital ads, websites, technology analytics, direct mail and even digital fundraising too, if you need a partner in amplifying your brand, expanding your reach and fostering that unwavering donor loyalty, visit teamallegiance.com.

Jonathan McCoy

00:29

Hey, I'm Jon.

Becky Endicott

00:30

And I'm Becky.

Jonathan McCoy

00:31

And this is the we are for good podcast,

Becky Endicott

00:33

nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

Jonathan McCoy

00:42

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

Becky Endicott

00:51

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

Jonathan McCoy

01:02

So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?

Becky Endicott

01:06

Favorite human alert in the house right now.

Jonathan McCoy

01:09

I love when we stack the deck not with just somebody that's completely brilliant about the topic, but somebody that has poured into this community, that has a huge heart for community, that is literally like living and breathing all of this work, and he's sharing all of his knowledge on LinkedIn too. So it is a huge honor today to introduce you to David Hartstein. He's the co founder over at Wired impact. And if you're not following what Wired Impact is doing, I mean, they are honed in on building websites specifically for nonprofits. They're based in St Louis. They were just hosting an impact up in St Louis. We got to talk about that and celebrate that a little bit too, my friend. But let me tell you a little bit about David. He is Wired Impact's strategy and measurement guy. You know, we love people that come into this work with strategy, knowing what the real, bigger, better question is. So he spends a lot of his time developing marketing strategies aimed at turning casual visitors into active supporters. He's a firm believer that good marketing doesn't exist in a vacuum. Thank you so much. And he works to uncover opportunities within websites to help missions do more in their community. He's also a self professed data nerd. He enjoys spending time sifting through data and determining what's working well. So friends, this is a How It's Built episode. So we've asked David, not only because he's this amazing community rallier in our space, but because he's going to walk us through, how do you build a really effective, impactful website? If you're looking at this, this needs to be on your radar. But friends, we're also going to have David connect a little bit of his story, because not only does he have a degree from Wash U that's his undergrad, this journey took him around the world. He went to South Africa. He made this documentary that we're going to ask him about as well. But also, you know, he had a career and master's degree in early childhood education that took him to Brooklyn. So he's had all these really interesting experiences. He's planted back in St Louis. He's pouring into the community there. He's got this beautiful family, and he loves the Cardinals, of course. So we got to talk about all the things David, to have you in the house means the world. Good to see you, my friend. Welcome to the We Are For Good podcast.

David Harstein

02:59

Thank you so much. Inviting me and all the kind words that means truly the world to me. So I'm very excited to be here today with both of you.

Jonathan McCoy

03:05

Well, thanks, my friend. It's been great getting to know you the last few months and just how you showed up for the St Louis. I gotta just really point it out, like the only way the impact up happened is because people raised their hand and said, Hey, I'm willing to do this. You're you know that is not your main job. You're doing this because you wanted to connect community, and that's the kind of human that you are. So really, thank you for the way you've poured in. And I just want to get to know you on it the podcast community, to get to know you today. Take us a little bit to your story. You know what led you to the work that you're doing today? Take us back.

David Harstein

03:36

Feel like most people in the social good space, my journey has been a bit of a winding one. But like you mentioned from St Louis and just from a very young age, I feel like I was just blessed to have amazing role models of what it meant to be philanthropic and open minded and big hearted. And like I remember one of my grandmas just always volunteering her time and really sharing with us as kids why she was doing that and why these causes meant so much to her. And another one of my grandmas, My Baba was the first woman to be president of her synagogue, and my folks were just always welcoming and, you know, open minded to people that were different, and that just really wove that into the fabric of our upbringing. And I think all of that, coupled with having just like, amazing role models as teachers, which influenced my ultimately getting into education, it just sort of instilled in me this idea that you don't need an invitation to change your piece of the world, that, like, if you see a problem, you don't need to wait for someone's permission, you can just go out and try and solve it. And I think that, coupled with I as a kid, grew up with just some chronic illnesses that were the type of thing that weren't always present, but would sometimes flare up and sometimes really impact my life. And, you know, like sometimes. Sometimes to the point where I wouldn't be able to walk that well or get dressed on my own. And the reason I mention that is I think a lot of people have these sort of health scares at points in their life where it really puts things in perspective and makes them appreciate the little, sort of everyday things. And I feel like in a lot of ways, I was fortunate to have that when I was eight. And so I've just sort of carried this perspective of not only appreciating the moment, but also wanting to use however long I have here in this life to do something that I feel like matters and is meaningful. And you know, I just, I think that that has really shaped a lot of my worldview. And so just kind of out here, trying to do that in whatever way I can. So like I mentioned, taking a lot of different twists and turns over the years, been involved in a variety of amazing nonprofits and social good organizations, and then taught kindergarten for a little while in Brooklyn, like you mentioned, and today, that's really happening at Wired impact. So just trying to just fundamentally change the way that nonprofits build websites and just make website technology easier and less daunting and more accessible. So yeah, I know we're going to get into the website side of things a whole lot more than the conversation ahead, but that's kind of a brief overview of my winding journey to the social good space.

Becky Endicott

06:23

David, you shared that story, and I just really sit in the awe of it. And just I'm sitting here thinking in my head, like we are so lucky, John, that we have a platform to meet humans like David. And there are so many of you out there, I'm sure there's so many heads nodding as David's telling his story, going, Yeah, that really resonates. I kind of went through that too. I mean, I, I my grandma, my Nona, lived in St Louis, you know, and didn't so many of those same things. And, you know, I struggled with some chronic health issues when I was a kid as well. And I just, I think that when we're vulnerable, when we follow our nudges, when we live this sort of authentic life, and we lean into that nudge of, oh, I can change this right now, I'm, like, really fixated on this point of, if you see something, be that change, like anyone can do it with such little random acts, and so I think we're going to have such a brilliant conversation. I mean, you're coming for the websites. You're getting the humanity as icing on the cake. But I want to dive into this topic of websites, and want to give a shout out to Allegiance and Pursuant Group, who sponsored this incredible series, and really appreciate that we can have these conversations and share them for free on this platform. But before we get into like the super tactical and break down this playbook, we really want to talk about impact, talk about the opportunity that exists for organizations today regarding our websites, because they're not just these monolithic, standalone things that stand in the virtual space like they are the literal connection tools to our stories, to our people. It is the way we onboard someone into the movement, into the mission. And they're critical and vital, like walk through that opportunity for us and tell us what's kind of there for the taking that you see.

David Harstein

08:21

I mean, you're so right, Becky, that they are these critical moments in people's journeys with our causes. I A lot of times, the way I sort of think about it is you don't know at what point in the journey someone is going to end up on your website, but that first moment that they do is often what I call a linchpin moment, just a really, really important moment in their journey of connecting with your cause. And the challenging thing is, websites are very much a choose your own adventure type of experience, right? You don't know who they are, you don't know what page they're going to land on. You don't know what challenge brought them to your site today, but we have to meet them where they're at, and we have to engage them, and we have to share what makes our movement so beautiful, so that they are moved to get involved. And so in terms of what makes websites so important, I mean, you hear it all the time, right, that your website is your storefront to the world, but for so many nonprofits, they are so busy out there actually changing the world, that that website ends up as sort of a back burner project, and I would say even marketing efforts more broadly right now, I totally get why it happens. There's no judgment in this. I totally understand it. But exactly it becomes one of those, we'll get to it when we have more time kind of projects. And as we all know, there's never more time. The illusion of more time existing down the road just doesn't often pan out in the social good space. And so oftentimes folks put their website project down until things get really dire. You know, their website is hacked or, uh. Um, something breaks, or they have a big event coming up, and they're to the point where they're embarrassed to even share their website. It's actively like working against them, engaging their community. And we hear it. We hear it all the time. So many other conversations we're having with folks is we have this big campaign coming up, and I can't even send my website to a visitor because it doesn't do our cause justice, like we're we're doing this amazing work, and that's not reflected on the website. And to go back to that sort of storefront for the world analogy, like, if you had a physical space, you would sweep it, you would clean it, you would replace broken lights and broken windows and make sure everything looked nice for visitors. And we just often don't really do that with our websites. And so, you know, I think part of, part of the first step in really getting the most out of our sites in general, is just changing our mindset around the way that we build websites, the way that we maintain websites, and the critical role that they're going to play in our visitor journey, and then really just kind of committing to treating it as that, that ongoing, flexible tool in our toolkit that I should say that, that dynamic tool in our toolkit, one that's going to adapt with the way that we serve our community, and really should be changing all the time as our as the way that we engage with our community evolves.

Jonathan McCoy

11:33

David, I mean, you were such a great teacher. I feel the care that wraps around the way that you walk. You know folks through this process. Because I'm not gonna lie, I literally told somebody yesterday. I was like, we will fix our website in like, a couple months.

Becky Endicott

11:48

That's why I felt seen.

Jonathan McCoy

11:50

It's so funny, like it's just so relatable what you're saying. And I think I want to before we go into like, the playbook, I think this is such a great time to say, what are the questions that we could be asking ourselves, when is it ready for just like an evolution of our website, when do we need to scrap the old one and start a new what are some good questions that could lead us to that?

David Harstein

12:10

It's a great question, and it's a bit of a challenging one to answer, but there is a framework that we sort of operate within that at least helps us know where to start that conversation, and the way I think about it is coming at it through the lens of in an ideal world, what role should a website be playing in our organization? And the three areas that a website should really actively be helping you is, first, it should be driving traffic or awareness for your your cause and the work that you're doing. Second is it should be driving conversions or meaningful actions from your visitors, engaging your community once they're on your website. And the third, and honestly, one that's often overlooked is that it should be saving you time. It should be saving your visitors time. It should be saving your organization time. And so we can dive into each of those in more depth and talk about how to do those things. But where I like to start the conversation is really asking, is our website helping to drive awareness? Is our website engaging visitors? Is our website saving us time? And if the answer is no to any of those things, there's at least room for improvement. And that can be a nice jumping off point to know where you need to focus. Like, maybe you're getting a bunch of traffic, but that traffic isn't converting. Well, it sounds like you have an engagement problem. Let's start focusing there, or we're getting traffic. People are engaging. But man, it just is a slog every time we need to make changes in our site. So let's look at some efficiency. Let's look for ways to really use it as a tool that's going to save us time and help us unlock more operational capacity within our organization. So you know, if it to your to your question about, do we need to build a new website or improve our existing site? A lot of it comes down to how close you are to getting to a yes on those three questions. If you're not that far away, you could probably improve your existing site and extend the lifetime of it. You know, if you're further away, it might end up being more cost effective and time effective to just start over and really be thoughtful about it from the ground up. So a lot of it really does depend on the unique circumstances of each organization and where their website is. But hopefully that's a helpful framework to at least think about how to dive into answering that question.

Becky Endicott

14:34

I was today's years old when I thought about having a website that saves me time like literally, that is a total mindset shift. Because I got to confess that I have been really wired into the second one. Because as we're trying to think about, how do we help missions, grow movements, the engagement journey is just so important, and the fact that people see themselves. And they see others, and there are steps along the way, the beacons that have them want to reach out and connect, but my gosh, we have to do it efficiently, or we're going to burn out, or we're not going to be able to do all the things. So I'm ready to get into this playbook. David, we got our notes ready, so walk us through this roadmap that you have for how to build an impactful website for our orgs. Where do we start and what are those core steps?

David Harstein

15:26

Yeah, so first thing I would say is, if you are getting into building a new website, first of all, be realistic about how much time and capacity you have to dedicate to the project, because a lot of picking the right approach is going to depend on not only your budget, which a lot of people think about, but also your capacity. So I always push folks, from the very outset to assign a dedicated point person who's going to be running point on the website project. They don't necessarily have to do all the work themselves, but it's really important that they can do two things. One is that they can carve out a meaningful chunk of their workload to actually dedicate to the website, as opposed to just dropping it on top of everything else they're already doing. Because chances are, they were not sitting around with a big window of time, and they're, you know, like wondering, how do I fill this void in my workload? And so carve out the time to actually dedicate to getting the website right. And then the second is make sure that they have the authority to make the final call on decisions. You know, it's great to involve

Jonathan McCoy

16:31

Power

David Harstein

16:31

yeah, well, right, it's coming back to ImpactUp, right? It's great to involve other people on the team in writing content in influencing decisions and design, you know, but at the end of the day, you need someone who's going to make a call, and typically it's the person that, in our experience, they should own, not only the website project, but also really be the one who feels like they know the community that you're trying to serve at the website, because they can make decisions not through the lens of the organization, but through the lens of what our community needs from this tool that we're building. So that's going to be a theme that I'm definitely going to circle back to as we kind of thread throughout this conversation. Because, man, so many website issues are not actually tech issues. So many of them are messaging issues, audience issues are just clarity of positioning within our organization, types of issues that end up really being the disconnect between the website delivering the results that we're looking for. One analogy that I use a lot is that the plates don't matter if you're serving steak to a vegetarian, and so you really need to,

Becky Endicott

16:32

You're speaking Jon's language.

David Harstein

17:06

I actually think about you, Jon, when I when I mention this sometimes, because, you know, so many people get fixated on the plates, and you know the tools that they're going to use, but if you don't have a deep understanding of your audience and what they turn to you for and how you can help them, those plates don't matter. You're not going to see the results. And so let's dive into each of those. So starting out with driving traffic, a lot of it really does come down to knowing your audience. And I always push folks to start out by identifying their primary audience. I really push folks to say we're talking about one or two audiences maximum. I know that's super hard, but if you're trying to speak to everyone, you end up speaking to no one. And we have seen that play out time and time again. You just, you really want your most important visitors to know without a doubt that they've landed in the right place when they visit your website, that you know your movement was built with them in mind, and so getting really clear on who they are is such an important part to a place to start. You can have secondary audiences that not that's not to say you need to throw out all of those other folks that are really important to your movement, but you just need to get really clear on primarily, this is who we're building the website to target that's going to make so many other decisions that you make so much easier throughout the entire process. And then once you have those primary audiences identified, the next step is to dive really deep into their problems. Just what challenges are they facing, and how can you help in ways that other organizations can't? This is what we call your differentiated value, and it's really what's going to help you stand out. It's really what you should lean into in terms of your messaging, because these folks presumably are on your website because they're looking to make a difference in the world and are interested in your movement. And so really wrapping your messaging around, here's how we're different, here's what we're inviting you to join is going to cut through the noise and really help people know, yes, this is, this is for me. And another way that I sometimes come at this is to think, what do we want to be known for?

Becky Endicott

20:00

There you go.

David Harstein

20:01

I think, yeah, well, and I think it can really be helpful to say, not only what do we want our organization to be known for, but also our major initiatives, our programs. So, for example, here at Wired Impact, we want to be known as the easiest way for a nonprofit to build a website, you know, and that applies to the website software that we build and our approach and our processes. I also say that all the time about our educational content that we're putting out there in the world and there, I really want us to be known more for making nonprofit websites less scary. You know, I want to, I want to create the most actionable content on the web when it comes to nonprofit websites, and I think that helps to sort of inform. It ties to what we want to be known as, as an organization, but it is distinct and helps me really say, okay, if I'm creating this video, this toolkit, this blog post, it needs to be something that someone can read today and implement tomorrow, and that helps push me to get clearer, to get more specific, to really make it tactical and actionable. And I think organizations can do this about their programs, about resources they're putting out in the world, as well, as you know, their nonprofit as a whole. So that really kind of simple question of what do we want to be known for, has really helped us shape a lot of what we're doing and what we're putting out there in the world. And I think can really help nonprofits clarify their messaging and ultimately stand out online.

Jonathan McCoy

21:28

Can I just jump in here to say how brilliant this is.

Becky Endicott

21:30

I was about to say, David, you know, your shiz? Like, seriously, it is so modern. I didn't, I was, I was good.

Jonathan McCoy

21:40

But I go back to like, what our you know, our mentor Seth Godin has always said about marketing that a brand is not what you say about it. It's what other people say about it. So if you're actually writing content that leads someone to be like man, every time I come in contact with Wired Impact, it makes it so easy. It's like, that's how you shift. It's not just you saying that, but you need to say it too. But it's like people have that experience. And I think what a great call, clarion call of like, how is all your content saying that? How is the experience saying what do you want to be known for? And just repeating that in different ways? It's so good, man.

David Harstein

22:13

Thank you. No. I, yeah, no. I well on Seth Godin. I mean, you'll see a lot of Seth Godin throughout a lot of what I feel like I talk about, he just has very much influenced my thinking as well, and helped really push towards that clarity. Jon, I love that definition of brand. And a lot of the way I think about is, what do people say when you're not around, like when you are not there? What are people saying about your organization, about your programs? And I think the thing that I love about that definition is it really pushes for succinctness and clarity. Because if we're not clear, if we can't clearly articulate our own work, how is anyone else ever going to so jumping back into driving awareness and driving traffic. The final piece here is getting really clear about traffic channels, really what? Where does our audience go to find solutions to those challenges or problems that we mentioned before? You know, it might be social media. It might be search engines. It might be thought leaders in the space, really just aligning your solutions to providing value wherever your audience is looking for those answers is a major unlock when it comes to driving traffic and awareness for your cause. There are a lot of ways to do this. I mean, you can conduct audience research. There are tools. There's one called sparktoro, which I would recommend folks check out. It's an audience research tool that allows you to basically say, hey, where do people that visit my website hang out online? What social channels do they use? But honestly, nothing is better than interviewing your supporters. Nothing will ever be talking to your community.

Becky Endicott

24:00

It will humble you to immediately with what you thought you knew they were going to say or how they were going to act. Yes.

David Harstein

24:06

You are, you're so right. I mean, it is humbling. It is also such an eye opener every single time we do it, every single time someone that I've encouraged to do it does it, I just hear the same thing that it is such an eye opener in terms of what we thought our audience needed from us and what they actually need, or what they are telling us that we can do to help them. The other amazing thing about it is it can unlock this treasure trove of marketing messaging that you can use in your own marketing, the content that you create. So for instance, you know what I always say is, talk to your most avid supporters, ask them. Ask them to describe your work. Ask them to describe why they got involved in the first place. Ask them what they love about your mission and your movement and then use that language. You know, get that transcribed with AI. It's never been easier to get that transcribed. You can do it for free, pull out those key moments. Chances are that's going to resonate with other people like them and get them to really get excited about joining your cause.

Becky Endicott

25:18

Okay, that was such a brilliant pro tip, because it does a lot of things when you I mean, talk about like a twofer, but it's actually like a 10 for if I if that's even a word, but asking your audience for honest feedback, yes, you're gonna get the information that you need most to be able to move to the next step. You're also deepening trust because you asked and because you cared, and if you implement it, the trust is deepened even more. You get stories, you get social proof of concept, you get cognitive diversity and different voices that are coming in, and it diversifies your language, your look, your brand like I cannot overemphasize enough how important what you just said is, even as an exercise, if you don't have that as just an annual practice of, let's go talk to our people like as simple as that, the the way that you can provide an authentic voice in a time such as this, when we don't know what's real, especially on the internet, this is where we can create, like real, authentic community. And I really do think the website is like the hub that spokes out to all of these things. So I want to, I want to ask something super tactical, because you've been so brilliant in the strategy. But I want to know, like, what are some common website conversion rate killers? Like, what are we doing wrong? I want to, I want people to leave with a couple of these really tactical, quick changes that we could make today. How can nonprofits easily fix those?

David Harstein

27:00

It's a great question, and there are definitely common themes that we see coming up from nonprofits. So one is what we already talked about, targeting everyone, connecting with no one. So again, totally get why it happens. You want to cast the widest net possible, bring in as many supporters, but you end up diluting your messaging to the point where it doesn't resonate with anyone. So in terms of how to fix that, I mean, start by getting really clear on your primary audience. Just develop that, that deep sense of what motivates them, what challenges they're facing. And then again, outline the unique ways that you can help conduct those interviews. And then just make all the decisions that you are making when with regards to your website through the lens of what they need, when we stop thinking about what we need as an organization and shift our mindset to what our visitors need from our website, it's just a major unlock and really changes everything we do, from the structure of our website to the content we create to how we talk about our work, and makes it so much more likely that folks are going to get involved. So you know, we talked about before the lack of conversions being a major issue that folks are facing. Getting clear on your messaging is such a big such a big step in clearing up what we call conversion paths, those journeys that people take on our website, from the moment they land to the moment they convert and Becky to the point you brought up, goes such a long way also in building trust. You know, when people start to see that, well, we actually can deliver on our mission. We actually can do the things that we said that we are going to go out and change in the world, that is a huge unlock and a huge way that we can build trust with our visitors, to empower them to join our movement, but also understand that we are sort of this enabler in helping them achieve the good that they want to see in the world. One other is that your pitch isn't clear. A lot of we mentioned this a little bit before, but if you struggle to succinctly explain what you do and the difference that you make in the world to someone that's unfamiliar with your cause, there is no way your website visitors will understand it. And in this day and age, if someone doesn't understand it, they're gone. They're not going to spend time trying to pull back the layers of the onion. I will say, quick aside, we need to stop blaming short attention spans for a lack of engagement on our website. Attention spans are not the issue. They're not the issue. It's a messaging issue. It's an issue with our website. There are people out there like attention spans are what they are. They are not going anywhere. They are here to stay. We need to stop using that as a an excuse, because there are plenty of organizations that are doing a phenomenal job of engaging the exact same people that were, you know, crying about not having attention spans. And so we need to put that. Aside, and we need to really double down on the fact that we need to lean into clarity. We need to lean into really connecting with our visitors on an emotional level and convincing them that we're a good place for them to invest their time, their energy, the big heart that they're bringing to this work. It's an us issue. It's not a them issue, and we need to really double down on owning that when when visitors are not engaging with our website.

Jonathan McCoy

30:33

I love that so much, because you just if you look across culture, it's like, this is the culture. This is the generation that will binge watch an entire season of something in one night or one weekend. It's like, it's not it's a not about attention span. It's about, are we captivating? Are we serving

Becky Endicott

30:50

Connecting

Jonathan McCoy

30:50

these things to connecting, yeah,

David Harstein

30:52

Right,

Jonathan McCoy

30:52

All the things

Becky Endicott

30:54

I'm still in the differentiator part, because it's like, we have so many nonprofits who, you know, help with cancer, or, you know, support childhood cancer. And it's like, why is yours unique? What makes yours different than the hundreds or 1000s different you know around you? And that's what we really need to hone in on. And it's difficult, and it's difficult to hone in on that and to get it as your self professed, long winded, most loquacious writer, speaker ever like I see this deeply, and I'm glad you called this out.

David Harstein

31:32

You're so right, Becky, that it's really hard, and it's even harder for nonprofits than it is for most because they have such a stratified audience typically, you know, they are trying to speak to a lot of people, and a lot of organizations have a lot of programs or services or ways that they engage the community. And so it is really challenging to succinctly sum that up. So I don't want, I don't want to come across as thinking this is easy, even if it sounds simple, like, it is definitely a challenging thing to do. Circling back, though, that's why talking to your audience is so important, because they'll help you cut through the noise. They'll tell you why they care, right? They got involved. You did something right for them to get involved with your movement. So just ask, like, ask what? Why that? Ask why they were moved to connect with your cause. And I think it for a lot of organizations, you're going to hear some pretty, beautiful things that are going to really spark some ideas around the best ways to engage your visitors.

Jonathan McCoy

32:35

There's only good that can come from that. I just love that advice, because only good is going to come from, you know, getting to know the people that are around your movement, mission, etc, more.

David Harstein

32:44

The reason it doesn't happen is it takes time, right? It takes time, but it's time well spent. And what I always encourage folks to do, and I've heard this come up in other conversations you've had with folks on the podcast, is try and just weave it into more of an ongoing way that you run your marketing efforts, or you run your development work, you know you can just kind of weave in a conversation or two a week instead of, instead of conducting this big like audience listening project that feels really daunting, just weave it in, make it something bite sized, pick up the phone, call someone, ask For a few minutes of their time, ask some thoughtful questions, and then try and weave that into an ongoing thing that you're doing within your organization. Couple of other just very quick hits we can move through. So one that is very common is overwhelming visitors with too many choices. So when visitors are faced with too many choices, people get overwhelmed and are less likely to do anything. This happens all the time with calls to action on our websites and emails. You know, if you're if you're asking folks to donate, to volunteer, to attend an event, to reach out to you, to join your email list, it's just there's too many choices. You're not giving people a clear enough next step. And so I get it. It it comes from a very good place. We want people to engage on the terms that are right for them, but it could really be killing the conversion rates on your website. And so, yeah, the way that I push folks to fix it is really, for each page of your website, there should be one primary call to action, and on each page identify who's the audience for this page, what do they care about? Like, what's the what questions are they trying to answer? And what's the next step in their journey? And once we have those clearly outlined, our pages, sort of write themselves, becomes a lot easier to create the content for your page when you have those sort of framing questions in mind. And then it also becomes a lot easier to write that clear call to action, because you have that next step clearly articulated that connects to whatever the person reading that page is going to be interested in. Some pages are going to be a little bit broader, like your home page, going to have a little bit more of an overview feel to it. You can have some secondary calls to action that's totally fine, but. So there should still be a primary next step that you're driving visitors towards, and it should be tightly aligned to what they care about, not as much what you care about as your organization. The more you can align with their needs, the more likely it is that they're going to take that next step.

Jonathan McCoy

35:18

David, I'm raising the glass to you. You're talking about adding calls to action. We feel like we we almost listed lifted this as a trend. This year, we see so many people get us in the palm of their hand and then forget to say, what's next? What's the next step that you can take? What's the right next way you can pour in? So that's sage advice as we kind of thread this together. I mean, you've given us so much, my friend. I mean, just our internal Google Docs is like exploding of just like the the wisdom that you've shared, I want you to round this out. You know, as we kind of start to wind down this episode, like, what's some critical lessons that you would pass along to folks that are pouring into this you've worked with hundreds of organizations at this point? What is a lesson learned that you've seen as for folks that are pouring into growing their web strategy, looking at their web strategy this year.

David Harstein

36:03

Well, there's a couple that jump to mind. The first one is really lean heavily into authenticity on your website, in your marketing. If it feels like the kind of content that someone else could have written, take it further, you know, lean harder into your unique voice, lean harder into your distinct perspective. Just, you know, it's it's harder than ever to stand out these days. But I also think, because of all the noise online, people are craving authenticity, like they just are looking for that genuine sense of connection and leaning really heavily into what helps you stand out from others is not only going to help you attract more attention, but also attract more of the right people who are going to, you know, raise their hand for getting involved. They're going to really lean into your mission and just, you know, not only join as sort of a casual supporter, but be all in right, in the movement that you're you're building to make the world a better place. So that's one the other, which is maybe a funny thing to say, as we're having a conversation about website best practices, is take best practices with a grain of salt. I just I, I know it's kind of a funny thing to say, but it is so important to remember that your community and their needs are different than everyone else is out there, you know. And all of these best practices just need to be filtered through the lens of what your community cares about, what motivates them, why they come to you. Best practices are a great place to start. I like we talk about them all the time. We share a ton of content related to best practices, but it's really important to adapt them, to test them, to find the simplest version of a test that you can run, and then obviously double down on what works, but also take the time to circle back to those tests and say it's okay if it failed, what did we learn? What was our hypothesis that we set out to test? Why didn't it work? What do we want to do next time? What do we not want to do next time? Great. Let's use that. Let's adapt it into a new test, and let's run that. Websites are a great testing ground for things like messaging, for things like positioning and so really encourage folks to lean into those small, incremental tests and not be afraid of failure when it comes to running those types of tests. So two quick things I wanted to mention that are often overlooked with websites. The first Becky is what you mentioned before about saving time. I think that website technology doesn't need to be as complicated as sometimes people expect it to be. Like you should be empowered to go in and make changes to your website whenever you need to, without writing code or being a developer. And the analogy I use is the world's best hammer doesn't matter if it's too heavy for you to lift. And so technology should be a tool to help you do your job better. And if it's not, there are tools out there that will and so you should be empowered to make changes to your website whenever you want. And then the other piece I wanted to mention is about accessibility, if I can just speak on that for a quick moment, on just why every organization should care about accessibility. Okay, so when it comes to accessibility on websites, we sometimes hear organizations say something to the effect of like, our mission isn't in the disability rights space, and so accessibility isn't a primary focus. And I will say it comes up less than it used to, but I just, I would love to dispel that myth a little bit. So first of all, a stat, the World Health Organization estimated that one in six people worldwide have some sort of significant disability. So we're talking about 1.3 billion people. Yeah, a billion with a B, like, you know that's a whole lot of people that you're basically just excluding from using your website effectively. But even if we put that aside, you've probably heard this idea before that accessibility isn't just about supporting people with permanent disabilities, that it's about supporting all visitors, which is absolutely true, but I think it's important to understand what that looks like in practice. So like take something like putting captions on your videos. It absolutely helps support visitors who are deaf or hard of hearing, but it also supports people that person who's in the library and doesn't have headphones, or people that are in a loud space and can't hear your audio clearly. So

Becky Endicott

40:44

People laying in their bed and they don't want to wake up their husband, who goes to bed at nine o'clock, which is me, by the way.

David Harstein

40:49

Exactly, exactly right. And so not only does it open you up to more visitors, but it opens you up to more situations or circumstances, and it's more important than ever. Becky to that point of people browsing on their smartphones, that's happening more and more, and oftentimes we're in situations where we're not playing audio. So access, accessibility just sends a really clear message that everyone is welcome as part of your movement. You know, beyond the practical side of people accessing your content, it just shows that you're intentionally designing your movement to include folks who may have different needs. And I think that's something that most organizations would say that they stand for. And so this is a really good opportunity to walk the walk when it comes to caring about making your movement as inclusive as possible, and you're just helping to ensure that not only does it work today, but ability is also a fluid identity, and it changes for people over time. You know that's something I've experienced firsthand in my life. And then just because your major donor or your board member or your staff member is able bodied today doesn't necessarily mean they will be tomorrow, and just building with accessibility in mind helps fruit helps to future proof your website and your marketing, to just make sure it'll stay inclusive for people already in your movement, as well as welcoming new people into the fold.

Jonathan McCoy

42:15

I love that you talked about accessibility. We just, you know, launched an episode as part of How It's Built just a few back with Stephanie from the Perkins School for the Blind, where it's like, how is this core to just how we show up? It's so core to our mission. What does that look like as we build an entire marketing strategy too? So love that you lifted that, and you honestly have made me shift to a different, even bigger perspective of it.

Becky Endicott

42:36

I think what you've brought here is absolutely brilliant. It feels tenable, like for all of us to try some of these things. And honestly, I think Jon, would you say that We Are For Good is totally exposed on our website right now.

Jonathan McCoy

42:50

Oh my gosh, yes, 'm like, can I fix it before this goes live?

Becky Endicott

42:54

I know you're thinking about that, but David, we just adore you. I'm sure the listening audience understands why we adore you after this conversation. You have such a heart for this work. You know how this podcast rolls. We know how many episodes you've listened to, but we really want to get into story. And we want to know you've had set you've said it yourself, a winding journey in your life, and I'm wondering, in that winding journey, like, Where was a real like, trailhead for you of a moment of philanthropy that has stayed with you, a moment of generosity, of kindness, we would love to hear it.

David Harstein

43:31

Yeah. I mean, you know, we've been working with nonprofits a long time, so there's a lot that jumped to mind, but one that just has stuck very close to my heart is the story of a 15 year old boy named Michael Gustafson, his his family and his friends called him Mikey, and he was diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 10. And you know, Mikey, he loved school. He was an athlete. He was a competitive gymnast, and he would actually get his cancer treatments on the weekend so that he could miss as little school as possible. He just Yeah. Loved learning and being with his friends. And after a year of battling cancer, including a major brain surgery, he actually beat it. It did come back in a more aggressive form, and unfortunately, like at the time, there wasn't a treatment, there wasn't really a plan, there wasn't a cure, it was just there wasn't enough known about this type of brain cancer. But the moment of philanthropy, when Michael knew that he wasn't going to survive his battle with cancer, he developed what he called his master plan, and his parents have this amazing video of him laying out his master plan, and it was to do everything that he could so that no other child would ever have to go through what he's gone through. He just wanted to help as many people as he could. And you know, despite going through everything he was going through, he developed this beautiful idea that's grown into what's called The Swifty Foundation today. And his his parents, his siblings, his friends, they're carrying on this master plan. And the work that they are doing is, I mean, just it's incredible. They're organizing national tissue registries and tissue donations that are totally changing what's known about pediatric brain cancer, that they are advancing just amazing research, and they're providing this just amazing community for families just going through the most heart wrenching thing. So I've been lucky enough to get to know the team over at Swifty over the years, and for Michael's parents and his family to take just their own heartbreak and turn that into this amazing source of inspiration. Has just I didn't even have kids when I got to know them, and now that I have two young kiddos, the mission just hits very differently for me, but seeing what they're doing is is such a source of inspiration, and Mikey's master plan just continues to inspire me on a regular basis. So yeah, I wanted to share the story of Mikey and his master plan.

Becky Endicott

46:24

I mean, it literally ties back to what you said at the very beginning, which is, all of us can do something to step forward, to be the difference in the space we're at right now. So I'm taking my coffee and raising it to Mikey, and it's giving me such K Club Keaton story that we had, like early in season one, such beautiful stories about legacies that live on and get bigger and bigger, which we are 100% here for. God, we can learn so much from kids.

Jonathan McCoy

46:56

Of course, that stuck with you, my friend like that's gonna stick with all of us. Thank you for taking us in there and just just surrounding that family, you know, that's still carrying on that mission and growing the movement around Mikey's brilliance. So I just love that you shared that so much as we round out, man, what's a one good thing? You know? You listen to the podcast, you know, we we want to leave with something that stirred up with you. It could be a piece of advice, or it could just be a mantra or something that has been meaningful to you. What would you share with our audience today?

David Harstein

47:23

So over the last few years, I've started just jotting down life lessons, and one that I keep coming back to is the big things become small and the small things become big. So the thing I like about this is it really kind of changes in terms of what it means to me in the different seasons of my life. And so right now, the first part that big things become small. So I've wrestled with anxiety in different forms over over the years. I'm the kind of person that like, yeah, right. I just, I'm the kind of person that wakes up in the middle of the night and it's two o'clock and I just can't turn my brain off. Something is racing through it. And so this reminds me that most of those things that I wake up in the middle of the night worrying about, ultimately, don't really matter if you stretch out the time horizon long enough, it's so easy, you know, to get caught up in the big presentations, the big events, the big conversations, the big galas, the big campaigns, whatever they are, but they almost always work out fine, or at least the world keeps on spinning right, like, in the end, they just don't matter as much as it feels like they're going to in the lead up to them. And then the flip side of that, the small things become big. Right now, I play that to my kids a lot. You know, we have those two young kiddos at home, and like all that matters to them is that I'm excited to see them after school, that I take the time to crawl around on the floor and play with them. And it's so easy for me to get consumed in wanting to provide them the best possible future, and just thinking about, you know, just what's this going to look like in five years, 10 years. But they don't care about any of that right now, like all those small moments are all that they care about, and it adds up to be the big thing, you know, and it's so easy to lose sight of that. And I also think we can apply this to the professional context, right? Like these small, consistent ways that we show up, for our teams, for our community, they just they matter so much more than we sometimes give them credit for just taking the time to check in with someone on the team after they go through something in their personal life, or carving out a few minutes to answer that email or that voicemail that someone from your community sent your way, even if it shouldn't have ended up on your desk. It did, and you responding in a thoughtful way. Just I think that stuff matters a lot more than we realize, and it sends a very clear message to those people that you matter to me. So I think it's so easy again to get caught up in those big events and quarterly goals and major campaigns. And I think the small, everyday stuff adds up to matter a lot more than we sometimes realize. So, yeah, that's my that's my one good thing, that the big things become small and the small things become big.

Becky Endicott

47:25

You literally lived this out. I have to share this for like, 20 seconds, like you got on before we recorded and said, John, thanks so much for your text. You know, it was so kind, but I couldn't reply back to you because I was playing cars with my son, and I'm like, that was the most important thing, and you shouldn't have replied back, because you should have been present with your son. And I think I'm saying we are watching you live this out and rooting you on. And it's doing beautiful modeling for the people who love you and are around you. So okay, David, people are going to want to know how to connect with you. They're going to want to know how to get connected to wired impact. And there may be some people who have been nodding throughout this entire thing, saying, Okay, I need them to come rebuild my website. So please tell us how to connect into all the things, because we want more people to find you.

David Harstein

51:03

Yeah, anyone that wants to nerd out on nonprofit websites? I mean, we post everything at wiredimpact.com we can, actually, I'll tell you what, we can put up a page on our site. That's we'll do wiredimpact.com/good and we can just round up all these resources that we've talked about, and tools and things like that. So if people want to go to wiredimpact.com/good, we can make a page there that'll have all these resources. And then I hang out on LinkedIn these days. That's really the only social network I spend any time on, or I'm active on. But I love talking about nonprofit websites and marketing and all things social good, and I also mix in some stuff about neurodivergence. Just as a heads up, we have a kiddo that is neurodivergent and really passionate

Becky Endicott

51:52

Neurospiciness, me too.

David Harstein

51:54

That's right, that's right. Just carving out as much space as I can for him in this world is a real passion of mine. So you're going to have to power through some posts about neurodivergence from time to time, but most of it's about nonprofit websites. So we'd love to connect there. Just mention the podcast if you reach out, and I'll know that you know you aren't spam. Would love to connect.

Jonathan McCoy

52:19

Struggle is real, my friend, thank you. I mean, Becky said this earlier, you come for the websites, but you stay for this community, this connection that you bring to every conversation. So really grateful to have you part of this movement. Thank you for what you brought today, and just so much gratitude

Becky Endicott

52:33

Keep being that light, my friend.

David Harstein

52:35

Well, thank you. I just I so appreciate carving out the time for us to have this conversation, and then, honestly, getting to spend time with both of you is a true treat. So thank you.

Becky Endicott

52:45

Keep doing great work, rooting for you.

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