Hear from all the things that you've been up to this year. So before we dive into your lessons learned, can you share with our listeners? What would be a couple of words or a phrase that might describe who you are in the world of learning and development so that we can have that as a lens to filter the lesson that you're about to share?
Sure. So, a couple words, behavior change would be right up at the top and learning impact could also be in there.
I run a technology company called actionable. We help l&d professionals to sustain and measure the behavior change impact of their programs.
And you can't be in that particular sector without caring about behavior change and impact and of course, having a technology solution to help us all with that is absolutely incredible. So, so tell us about what you can start with lessons learned or you can share, you know, some of the projects that you've worked on this year. But yeah, we are dying to know like, of all the work that you've done in 2023, both as a business owner, as a professional who cares about putting good learning out into the world. What are some of those lessons that you're taking away? And we'll help you figure out what to focus on in the new year.
appreciate being invited to talk about this because 2023 For me, has been has been reasonably transformative, and I know that word gets used a lot but it really has for me and for the business. I came into the year with some fairly aggressive scale plans for the business and sort of failed to recognize that the goals that I had, weren't going to be met by doing more of the same but faster, harder. It was going to require a fairly different way of thinking for me as the business leader and a different way of going about things from an implementation standpoint. A couple of key lessons for me when I was reflecting on the year thanks to this question. Was that simple. This was my big one is that simple. is better than complete. Had these sort of Taj Mahal ask plans, these things that I wanted to build and it was it was just a ridiculous level of detail. And you know, we've probably all heard the expression of minimum viable anything. It was such a great reminder that it's so much better to start with a basic thesis well stated, then to start with a 10 page scoping document that covers all the detail but maybe misses the kernel of why at the basis. So that to me has been really key if we can start anything from a position of why are we doing this and have that crafted into a succinct, meaningful, non ambiguous sentence, as we're talking about it floated by the people that are going to be impacted and see if that resonates with them. I think we can save ourselves a lot of time and headache versus you know, trying to map the whole thing out ahead of time, and then go out and try to you know, sell the vision on that.
Yeah, I the Start With Why is, is I mean, it's it's common sense in some ways, but also I think in learning and development, especially when it comes to the measurement side of things, I think is really missing. And here are two examples. So I just saw a post that was put out about standards for metrics for learning and development. And I looked at that and I won't go into that detail, because I think we could talk for hours and hours about standards and pros and cons. But the one thing that I noticed that was missing as I just perused that sample of the of the standards was that there wasn't a start with why there wasn't like, Hey, what are we doing and why that was just completely missing. It just launched into, you know, here are all the things you could do but not any guidance on like, why are we doing this in the first place? And then let's Yeah, let that be the lens for everything else that you decide there on out. And anyway, there's a few other examples I could share that I've seen on LinkedIn when it comes to metrics in particular and frameworks and I appreciate people thinking about it. But nobody's thinking enough about what are we doing and why.
I saw that. I know exactly what you're talking about that specific standards post. I have a blog post that I've drafted and redrafted about six times in response to that with the exact same message that there's there's nothing against the ideas that are in there, but they're completely on record to that. Why do we get because the work that we do, we're in the space of measuring the impact of learning programs. People come to us saying, hey, I want you to measure the impact of our learning program. Saying great, what change are you trying to drive? Well, here's the things that we want to teach them like, No, I understand that. But what are you trying to achieve? Like what's what's the impact of this desired impact? And it's amazing how often the answer is either I don't know or it's vague or it's your the 28 things we want to change. Right? Okay, so we're trying to boil the ocean. It's probably not going to be super effective. And even if it is, we're not going to know which key works, right. It's, it's like being in marketing and saying we're gonna do all the things and the sales go up. But what drove that? We have no idea. There's a ton of inefficiency. Yeah. Yeah.
Your your lesson learned about simple is better than complete. I think that applies whether it's designing a learning program or trying to figure out how to measure it, which we would ideally do in advance. Start with something simple and actually our last conversation with with Joe lot, but he said the same thing. He's like, we need a hypothesis and doesn't have to be crazy. But, you know, what are we doing and why and then being able to test that through our intervention versus, you know, hoping for something to come about in the end and you know, the folks who are listening, I know you both and I know you're like okay, you're preaching to the choir, could you please move on? So we'll move on. So what else? What are the other lessons that you've learned?
This is more of a personal one or more from a leadership standpoint, but appreciating the efficiency of presence. The you know, I'm busy, everyone's busy. And it's, it's tempting, particularly we work remotely and it's tempting to be multitasking or even if we don't think of it as multitasking, having a couple things going on once. I was reminded of the massive inefficiency, that that can create, you think in the moment you're being efficient and I'm getting this thing done. Well, that person is grabbing some water, but inevitably you miss something or you're not hearing it with the same level of attention. And it doesn't so the ripple effects of you know, sort of a misguided conversation. And having to undo some of that later is just incredibly inefficient. So that was that was a big one for me as well. Yeah.
And the other conversations we've had, and I told you, Chris, that we're halfway through this this day long Lessons Learned extravaganza, but the quality of life is coming up as a theme. And of course, we can't separate our work, but there were individual contributors or we're business owners, we cannot separate our work from our personal lives. And so, you know, of course, lessons learned ideally would be on how do I improve the quality of my life through how I'm doing and why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I think the simplicity piece and efficiency and just really nailing down, like what really matters here, and how do I know one of my biggest lessons learned is going to be how do I know that what I'm doing is working and how can I figure it out more quickly, so that I can course correct more quickly. Get those feedback loops? Yeah.
the sufficiency of presence thing really came up for me. We have a three year old and a six year old two boys. And my wife does most of the research on good parenting practices, but then become a good student. And so one thing that she shared at the beginning of the year was the power of a 10 minute dedicated, called Special playtime basically one on one with your kid doing whatever the kid wants to do. And it was at the time was like 10 minutes that can't possibly have an impact or be enough. First of all, if anyone's tried this, but it's 10 minutes of dedicated focus on what a three year old wants to focus on. is a is a major test of how present you're actually able and willing to be it was remarkable to me to realize I might spend an hour with the kids but I'm not actually spending it with the kids. And so it's it's almost become like a, like a form of meditation. Like can I actually focus here for 10 minutes on this thing? And the efficacy of that the impact on the child like it's incredible from a temperament standpoint, from a patient standpoint, the response that they get, and I appreciate that in l&d, we're not supposed to talk about students as children. But they're human beings, right. There's something to be said for they, when we bring our whole selves to a conversation. What a difference that makes.
Yeah, they were talking earlier about less content and more mean, I have to say action because Chris have actionable I cannot say it like that. But I mean, at the end of the day, less content and more experiential opportunities because that's what leads to learning and you have to be present and you have to tap into the what it means to be human and the human experience of doing something new or being uncomfortable that often comes along with learning and yeah, there's a lot we can learn about being good stewards of learning by just being present with our children.
There's some one of the things that we found in our own research this year looking at the platform data actionable is what I came to call the content context ratio. And we found that ideally, it's a three to one in favor of context, meaning for every 10 minutes of content that you're providing, allowing 30 minutes or more of
reflection on some people to find their strong enough why to wants to engage in applying that content and anything less than a three to one ratio. Like we found that it even improved that a five to one. So in an hour's block, you know, 10 minutes of content and 50 minutes spent on actualization, which if you think about it in context to to training programs of well, some current ones, but certainly you know, 1520 years ago, that ratio was completely inverted. And not surprisingly, not having the same impact. Yeah. So
you you're this exact conversation came up in one of our community of practice meetups and one of the folks who's tuning in right now is a part of that and we you know, the, the question that I asked to the group was, if we know we all kind of intuitively know that more context, more experiential opportunities, more time to roll up your sleeves and just start playing around with new concepts or new things. That's going to lead to better outcomes but why don't we design learning that way? And the response was, that it might take longer to design for that particular experience for the reason you mentioned, it's, we've done learning one way for ages and to make that change requires no buy in but also some changes in how we do things and how we support people. So Chris, how do you suggest that we, we know what we're doing isn't working because we're over emphasizing content and we should be emphasizing instead more experiential learning? How do we make that shift if we're getting that pushback?
So I love where our conversations go, Elena? Because this to me comes full circle right back to the start with why. One of the things that I have experienced is that the reason we throw more content into a session that is beneficial to the individual, is because we haven't clarified to a very specific singular point. What are we trying to achieve with this session or this program overall, when we've dialed it down and got hyper focused and in full alignment with all stakeholders, but this is the purpose, right that we're trying to achieve this outcome therefore we need these behavioral shifts. Then we can say okay, well what is the most efficient content to help people do two things to understand how to change to have the time and space to find the deep enough why to want to change? Yeah, so when we do the work upfront, but what's the start with why and then work through and say the whole point of the session is to help people understand how and give them the space to find a why that puts the emphasis back on the proper application or allocation of time.
I want to share I spoke at a conference as a virtual conference just last week. And I shared one of your tips. It was a question about, you know, when should we be measuring learning? And what are the behavior changes that we want to capture? And people said, well, we want to measure before and after training, and I said well, yes. And what about what happens? When people go back to work when they're in real life? How are you measuring how they're applying and and the changes that took place and it was just crickets? And so people naturally asked me, Well, how should we be doing that? And so I made your suggestion of doing nudges, inviting people to reflect on how How well am I performing with this expectation or this change had How do I feel about my own performance and where do I feel like I'm getting stuck? And the the reaction that I got from the room, which just shows you how ingrained people are into content, is they they missed the point about reflection, and they said, well, we don't have time for people to get rump refresher training. And I said, the point isn't for people to get more content, the point is for you to strategically check in with people after they've completed a learning experience and ask them how's it going? And the point is just to invite them to reflect not to get them to consume more content. And again, I got crickets. So we have we have a ways to go. I think in changing our own mentality about how we design learning and how we support people and making those changes.
We're sure has never done thank you for spreading the good word. I mean, it's the r&r right it's the reminder and reflection not reminder of the content, right reminder for people to connect with what resonated with them from the session and to reflect on how they're progressing. Right? If we can provide, you know, numerous opportunities for that two amazing things happen. One is we increase the likelihood of the behavior change happens. So when for us, but the second is, is that it's not anymore, something being done to people. We're not pushing content and people say hey, read this or watch this. But instead saying, hey, what mattered most to you? How's it going? How can I help so that it becomes in service to the participants and the organization? And that's the when I tell people all the time I've got an 86% engagement rate with the actual platform. People say, I don't know that's possible. Our LMS is at nine to 11%. Right? Because we're not an LMS. We're not pushing content. We're supporting people's behavior, chosen behavior change. And again, that's, it sounds like a humble brag, but it's not about actionable. It's about the intent behind the nudge. That's the point. Yeah,
yeah, that's right. So as we go to shift into what will you be doing differently next year? The question I actually want to leave with a question and have you share what you will be doing differently through the answer because I know you can do that. Now so we what will you be working to improve next year and how are you going to be working on making those improvements?
Yeah, loaded question.
I thought coming into 2023 that I had done a good job of pruning back my my priorities and focus. I feel at this point that I was probably at about 20% of what I could have done there. So the continued focus on essentialism. Thank you, Greg. But continue focusing on essentialism. What are the what are the key are the things that are going to create the greatest value for the business for me and for the people around me, is really core for me. So one of the things that I've I've done with my EA is really deliberately held off from committing to anything that's non essential for next year. So I can go into sort of calendar design with that headspace of let's start from a clean slate here and figure out what is going to be the most value. So that's that's fairly key. And I think, balance that out because that has sort of a ruthless efficiency element to it. It's my other priorities going into the year are greater connection. At the beginning, and I'd say I'd even if you weren't here, Elena, but connecting with you over the last few months has really been a joy. And I want to be more deliberate and fostering some of those non immediately commercial relationships with like minded practitioners. So I think you know, your community of practice is brilliant, anyone that chooses to be a part of that. That's so critical to have peer group where you can discuss and debate the safe space to share. I don't actually know anything about this thing. Can anyone help is really quick. Yeah, so those those two go hand in hand to me. And then I think underpinning the whole thing is how do I bring that efficiency and that quest for greater breadth of connection through a lens of service, so that for my clients and team members, I'm looking to bring more value to their life through those two things.
Well, thank you for thank you for the compliments on the community of practice and connection. I would I would echo that 100%. And I think I mentioned this to you, Chris. I ran into a colleague at a conference last year and he the first thing he I've walking up to the table, he sees me approaching him and he says to me, there's my competition. And I looked at him, his name is also well, I won't say his name. And I said, I said, You know what, I'm not your competition. We are complementary in the work that we do. And I just think that there's so much more opportunity for us to complement each other and that collaborations and connections like, technically Chris, you and I could be considered competitors. And yet, we're not because we're so much more powerful when we connect and collaborate on the thing that we both care about, which is having impact through learning and through our work, and then doing that collaboratively is so much more powerful. So, yeah, I would, I would say for those who are listening, you know, how can you double down on that in your own work? Whether you're a business owner or you're working internally, how can you foster connections with new people? And new ways so that everyone is elevating whatever it is that they're working on, versus somehow competing for space or voice or whatever resources?
I mean, it's a big wide world, right. And I think to your point from earlier, there's a lot of work to be done in this space. So the more voices that are sharing it actually, Seth Godin had a post, maybe yesterday or maybe even this morning, about exactly this, right the that a colleague of his got an angry email from someone saying that was my idea first, and Seth was talking about, you know, his own work and how many people have businesses off you know, the Purple Cow or key concepts that he's learned over the years? And that it's the Yes First of all, it's it's flattery. But secondly, it moves the moves the mission forward, right, more people that are talking about it and sharing it, the the greater the, the less friction there is. Around the adoption of those concepts in the broader world. So yes, I agree wholeheartedly. It's the abundance versus scarcity mindset.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we have a small listener group, but I did promise that we would open this up for questions. So for those who are tuning in, if you would like to get more of Chris's wisdom and an answer to a question that you have yourself, please do feel free to raise your hand. And we'll bring you up on stage and you can share your question. So that call to action is open at any time, even if Chris and I keep talking. That being said, Chris, as we look to wrap up our 30 minutes together, I want to lead into another question of my own, which is, what's the call to action that you have? And I'll give you a little more context around that. So we all are here together because we care about making the world a better place and doing that through learning and development or coaching or mentoring base based on everything that you've done with actionable and the challenges that your own clients have worked through? Know what what should we all be focusing on to collectively elevate the work of learning and the usefulness of learning to improve outcomes and whatever industry or way that we might do that?
Great question. I think most universally applicable, go upstream. When you are asked to be involved in some sort of learning initiative, whatever your role may be in that instead of going downstream into the logistics mechanics component, will go there, of course, but go upstream first, and to you know, to ask the question, there's a couple of questions that that you can ask, but the one that's most powerful is wonderful. I look forward to being part of this, just so I can confirm is the purpose of this experience or training or whatever, to to deliver training or is it to drive change? To ask the question, and to have them explicitly answer it even if you think you know whether it is because them saying that again, whether internal or external, asking the question, as people say out loud. The purpose is to drive change. What kind of change are we talking about? Get everyone immediately onto the same page. And if the response is just really doing training, it's not about any particular change. Now you know, right. So there's very little point and it's a fool's errand to be, well, how are we going to measure impact? Well, if the purpose wasn't to drive change that we shouldn't be trying to measure. So upstream, I think the whole sector becomes more valuable. When you are asking the question. What's the change that we're trying to drive here? If in fact, we're trying to drive change? Yeah,
yeah. You. You said something to me that when we first connected, you know, change doesn't always matter. And does it like does change really matter for your stakeholder or for your initiative? We might think it does. But at the end of the day, we're doing what we do in partnership with others. And so yeah, yeah, make getting that clarity first. Thank you, Amy. I'm going to bring you up on stage just one minute here.
There we go. Elena Hey, Chris. This has been engaging in the spirit of sometimes change doesn't matter. I just attended a wine tasting class a few weeks ago and I thought to myself, you know, that's, that's an instance where you know, a training environment where change doesn't really matter.
Chris, I wanted to ask you, because Elena had mentioned that in our community group, we've been talking a lot about not just learning in the flow work, but measuring in the flow of work, and you both spoke to that a little bit about asking participants moment of transfer. It was useful, how I've been progressing, and I've been thinking a little bit more about that because I work for a professional services firm and we don't have a lot of, let's call them operational performance metrics. A lot of it is based on you know how well they're performed, you know, our consultants are performing on projects, which is really based on a lot of subjectivity from different audiences, perspectives, including leaders and clients. And one idea I had was that one way to look at this is 360s. So either you know, the end of a project on a regular cadence, asking managers asking, asking consultants, you know, what have you, where did you struggle, what what skills you think would make you more effective next time, things like that? Because then we can trend what those skill gaps are and understand more about, you know, as learning professionals where we might be able to help drive performance. One of the thoughts I had though, was, you know, one of the conversations I was having recently it was really 360s or more about giving individuals feedback on their performance. And so I guess for a company who isn't really doing 360s Right now, and where that would be a culture shift. What what are you I guess I'm just curious, what are your reactions to that idea? You know, about us as talent professionals using that kind of data, to trend a track over time, where our skill gaps exist and where we might need to help and support different groups and roles. Yeah,
I appreciate the question. So if I'm hearing this correctly, they were wondering about the looking at almost like listening to all around identifying what the talent development needs are within the organization, potentially using a 360 to get both observable and self reported. Needs, correct. Correct.
Yeah. And I'm curious also, if you know of any organizations who are doing that.
Yeah, I think it definitely, I mean, the beautiful thing about natural language processing and some of the generative AI tools that exists now is it becomes pretty easy to capture those 360 narratives, whether it's, you know, written or voice and text, and then actually depending on the size of the organization, either reading them all or we're aggregating them through through an AI tool to be able to identify some of the common themes that are coming up. So I definitely, definitely see the value of that. The where I get a little nervous about 360s is if we're assessing the development progress of a participant who has recently experienced the learning program or learning session, because the timing of the 360 matters greatly. We think about observable change versus the actual tool change journey that an individual goes through. So often, we're actually worse at something before we get better at it, and we're trying a new technique. So that's my only cautionary note with 360s is that the timing matters more than I think a lot of people emphasis on we so we focus on self reported behavior change complemented by 360, which can provide a little more nuance on that, but I think that's following learning interventions in your case, I think using it as a as a listening tool. I'm going to call it I think is I think it's quite powerful.
One thing to jump onto that is, when we're when we're asking for data, I we have a you know, survey fatigue and questions about how is my data being utilized and so with a 360, it feels like data is being taken, but nothing is being given back to us. And I think historically, that's the kind of the relationship we have with 360s and performance reviews is it's one it's one sided. And Chris What I really appreciate about your approach through actionable whether it's using your technology tool, or just using the approach, it's that you're you're capturing data, whether you do a 360 or you don't you're capturing data, and you're reinforcing and supporting people with so you're asking questions because you want the feedback but the question is designed to reinforce and support someone and I think, you know, Amy, I would suggest whatever you're doing with a 360 How can you think through the lens of not just taking data, but also using it as an opportunity to give back some sort of support, reinforcement, encouragement, something so that it feels less like we're just taking all the time? Because I think that will reinforce people be more willing to share their experiences because they are getting something valuable in return?
Exactly. Yeah. I love that and that's probably why too sometimes we have challenges with response rates in just the traditional post event learning surveys, right? People walk away from those events and they never look back and taking information and they never act on that which makes sense. It's just it's probably probably contributes to those response rates.