I'll Be Pod for Castmas—Les Mis + Form of the Sword

8:31PM Dec 23, 2023

Speakers:

Juliet

Katherine

Keywords:

christmas

talking

character

john

marius

musical

life

man

story

cries

feel

joy

world

fight

sword

carly rae jepsen

played

moon

sad

les miserables

Hello, and welcome to IRB pod for caste myths, where we put highbrow literature in conversation with lowbrow Christmas media. I'm Juliet. And I'm Catherine. And today our Christmas video is Carly Rae Jepsen, it's not Christmas till somebody cries alongside

the form of the Sword by Jorge Luis for has and Les Miserables like wait, is it the form of the sword or the shape of the sword? Same

thing, I think it is one of those idiosyncrasies where the shape of the sword is kind of a common English thing for like, that's the the natural one has like the shape of the sword and everything. But, like, if you look it up from a scholarly perspective, it's just always referred to as the form of the sword. And so it's,

it's an interesting I, from a literary perspective, I prefer shape because the shape of the sword is really, or rather the shape of the scar from the sword is an important image his piece,

I think of it kind of like a lot of shares to compare to,

right? That's just all French to me,

which is in search of lost time. Okay, but in English, usually called remembrance of things past.

Gotcha, gotcha. So a translation as a more poetic interpretation. Honestly, I

just like saying, hola chefs don't do it because you see it well, I think rash is one of those things we should carry over into English it's a great set of syllables. What does it mean? Like in the same way that like research means to re search ah, I sheshe rachet interest

Well, let's search our topic for today.

So in our first episode of the season, we got a great synopsis of lame is from Katherine and it's not Christmas still somebody cries is both extremely it's a short song you can go listen to it in the the theme is just in the title there has a companion piece to both of these works. We have the bar short story, sometimes called the shape of the sword, sometimes called form of the sword. And in this very feed, if you go back one episode, you can hear Max Newland read that entire short story,

which was awesome. By the way, I just listened to it before recording now and I really enjoyed both that translation and his performance of it.

I'm going to try to give a short summary anyways, just in case or just in case it's helpful. It's

only 15 minutes though I will say so it's a quick listen.

Jorge Luis Perez. This short story, the form of the sword features bar has as a narrator talking to a European who has settled on a farm in Argentina. First he tries to appeal to the man's patriotism and complements England, only to discover that his interlocutor is in fact, Irish. The Irishman tells his story of being part of a revolutionary movement against the British. It does not go well for anyone involved. He is saddled with a cowardly new comrade named Vincent moon, who is briefly injured. The two of them stay at a generals abandoned Manor for nine days on the 10th. Returning to the house, he overhears the coward moon on the telephone, selling our narrator's whole band out to the police. The Irishman chases the trader through the labyrinth of the house before pulling a seminar off the wall and carving a moon shaped Mark into Moon's face just as the police arrived as the story reaches its tragic conclusion the Irishman reveals to Barr has that he himself is Vincent moon, that he told his story in inverse so that it would be heard to its conclusion that he invites for has to know him and despise him

great synopsis there Juliet thought all the major points I

have my whole life struggled with sunup sizing bar has like summarizing bar has because his stories are so kind of short into the point, any active summary it's like well, you're missing kind of both the language and the mystery and everything like summarizing the garden of forking paths, you end up with something wholly apart. From the garden of forking paths, like the plot of that story has nothing to do with the story itself, which is a weird thing to say about stories.

It's almost like you end up with the chat GVT text and not the human written text that feels more of an experience like you get the synopsis is like okay, yes, technically that's true, but there's no soul here. A little update. I

wonder if you did a sim like how much does lame is fall apart in In summary, like, if you just say sad people in France? Like, are you? Are you capturing like this? Or are you like, Are you missing something distinct in Les Miserables?

It depends. If you sing sad people in France, I think you've got a little bit closer to the experience of the musical.

So this story is what I sometimes like to think of as a part of boreholes is Irish trilogy, I that being the form of the sword, the garden of forking paths, and the theme of traitor and hero, we're not going to dig into all of this today, as much as I would love to be like, let's, let's really get into this fascination with, like, Ireland and the Irish people's, like fight for independence from the British and for like respect in, like British culture and everything, because I'm very interested that I, you know, also spend a lot of time reading James Joyce. So like, I feel kind of pigeon holed in in some ways. But it's a it's a interesting sort of thing to compare the, you know, Irish war of independence with some of the French aspirations for independence in, in lay miserab amongst the Friends of the ABC. Yeah, absolutely. We

can take a step back from the specifics of Ireland and bore his writing about Ireland and kind of look at the the broader themes and relations with Carly Rae Jepsen, of course, and Victor Hugo.

Here's a question I have. Yeah. Do stories seem more real? Or more true, when they are sad? Huh, more

real or more true when they are sad? This is a really interesting question, because I just saw Annie, the musical, which is sad in a way that does not feel real or true. And then has a happy ending. So I was thinking a lot about sadness and stories as a form of emotional manipulation to kind of pull in the audience quickly. And, like manufacture empathy for the characters, because as soon as you had hungry orphans on stage, there are a lot of audiences that we'll be like, oh, so sad, I want to see her be happy and get adopted. So that can the sadness can be a way of pulling in audiences quickly, in a way that may or may not be warranted by the ultimate story being told, how

would you reflect on that with others? That does because it, especially because, like, I need to know the A's into that paradigm?

A little bit, I think, especially as a way for getting young people interested in theater. I know as a young girl myself, when I looked to musical theater to see any form of representation. You had Annie you have because that those are the two big roles that get played by young feminine children.

And I guess mistress Mary in the secret garden, like that's another particularly Oh, yeah, that's

not quite as negative musically. But yeah, that's another good one. Um, so it is interesting that our only way if you're a young kid who wants to perform, you have to be sad in order to get cast in these shows, or you have to play the sad character. I do just want to put a caveat, I'm not convinced on the ethics of employing young children to do professional tours. I do think that's a little bit problematic. But it exists in the world and it happens so we can talk about that as storytelling rather than the like labor aspect of it.

I think it's interesting to think about, you know, of course, part of the reason I asked this question is it's not Christmas till somebody cries. Feels like slightly More realistic of a Christmas song? Because it's like literally tailing sadness, Misery tragedy like, like, not tragedy on a grand scale but like the human experience of small tragedy, the the human experience of grief as inclusive in the Christmas procedure, rather than saying, oh, that's separate, like Christmas, you only get to feel happy. It's like no, you feel sad. And that too is part of a Christmas to kind of make it seem more real.

I think what makes that feel more real is a tongue in cheek. The sadness is where unlike castle on a cloud, where it's just sad ballad sad. Like very sentimental, oh, grief as a very just like a pretty valid that the child singing. Um It's not Christmas still somebody who cries is upbeat and there's sort of a wink at the audience and it's acknowledging the hard things without trying to make you feel sad about them. It's it's like a slog itself feels so much like it's a coping mechanism in how it's talking about these things,

even amongst like children dealing with grief and poverty amongst the minority household alone. Like even rocking the focus all the way to that of the 238 children, including coset in this who feels the most real or like would you rank them in terms of like, who feels like they have a kind of a more real story and who feels like they have a slightly more manufactured story that

is that type of question. I'm answering it in my head in terms of my own personal experiences, because I am talking to like a grown version of DAB Ross right now. So because you know that character reminds me of somebody I know in real life he kind of feels more real for that regard which has nothing to do with the craft of the storytelling just my own personal baggage I'm bringing to the text to

give us these most real and then amongst because that in Apennine because

that has always felt less real because she gets the guy and the happy ending right and happy ending Yeah. Up name dies tragically and Marius his arms and certainly that was the song I listened to way more times then a heart full of love. Like I don't listen to the happy love song. Growing up I I was a moody teenager I was drawn to the pining was like

happening a little far away. Like really does speak to like, yeah, teenage experience. There's some there's something so emo and emotive about that, that I think extra that even though Yeah, you and I didn't die as teams. Correct.

We just felt like that's one of the things we've bonded over as adults like let's be friends

that's a true thing amongst all of my friends actually.

You're all you've all made it. Yeah, that's beautiful. Oh, do you agree that is that how you arrange them like Apennine kind of the most real I

think that has some drawn to it and I'm really fascinated by the fact that we both feel that way that it really does seem amongst all of the misery and everything the fact that cuz it gets like so. It's like yeah, but that things have been her as a child. I don't want to deny that but then it seems like she kind of has like good things happen to her like of all of the friends of the ABC Marius gets to live.

Right number one Yeah.

John John comes out of nowhere as we I'm trying not to talk about Java John watch this episode because we focus so much on him last episode. And there's so many other interesting characters stacked up in Java John Santa Claus comes out of nowhere. And because that has like wealth, like perpetual wealth, both from John John and then also from Marius in amongst these terrible economic kind of situations and everything. It feels weird that there's like, and this one's innocent and good and gets good things happen to her because I'm just like, we are Are all the other characters like, are they less pure of heart, and that's why they ended up poor in dead.

Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about Annie, where the show begins. Annie's the sad orphan, she's really hopeful she'll find her parents, but she's in this like abusive orphanage, and that sadness sort of pulls in the audience to make you care about her. But then the rest of the show is just her going up and up and up, where she meets her adopted father figure who happens to be a billionaire. So by the end of the show, she has also inherited a lot of wealth. I did not swear. So

yeah, it's just awesome. I believe.

So. So Annie ends up getting everything she wants, and more because she gets adopted by Daddy Warbucks, who happens to be not even a billionaire, a billionaire? Who, automatically she gets welcomed into this world of extremely well. Meanwhile, all of her orphan friends from the orphanage get invited for Christmas. And then they have to go back to their lives where they don't have this kind of easy way out. Yeah, so like, why is why are Andy and because that's so like, why are they the ones that get singled out, get the wealth and then become sort of the source of the happy ending, and you feel good, because you're like, Oh, yay, thanks for that for these characters. But it's just that one individual character and that's a mess of other inequalities and hardships.

I'm going to make something cringe which is that I always wanted to play FDR in our production.

I love that.

I have a question which is, is Les Miz comedy oh boy and ends and allotting ends and a wedding like it ends with the innamorata ends with with our ingenue in our darling young man of noble birth, like getting married and going off into the sunset together.

Structurally, comedies go from chaos to order. And I think you could argue that there is order in the end like the compared to the I mean, it ends with Sean Bell John's dying. But then you get the sense that things are gonna work out pretty well for Marius and Koza in his absence.

So yeah, well, Sean dying is like, now they don't have John's like past haunting them anymore.

Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're able to move on from the chaos of him being on the run and trying to escape his paths.

If you had an alternative story, we're either married isn't because that also die. Okay. Or we just don't see the wedding. You end the story like, though John and Josh air, and like, that's where the story ends, like, and we don't get the memories because at that wedding, well, I would leave is feel more real. If they died, or we just didn't get to the happy ending.

How does the novel end? Does the novel also end with the wedding? Effectively? Yeah, it's

it's, uh, the novel has a dynamo. This is the final book of Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. But the first chapter of the final book, final volume, final book within that volume, I believe this is book nine, within that volume, chapter one, pity for the unhappy but indulgence for the happy. It is a terrible thing to be happy. How content one is, how all sufficient one finds it, how being in possession of the false object of life. Happiness, one forgets the true abject duty. Let us say, however, that the reader would do wrong, were he to blame Maria. Yes,

I like that paragraph because it's both tragedy and comedy. It's like, yeah, the the ending where everyone's happy and there's order restored, is the tragedy.

There's this line in Ursula Le Gwynns. The ones who walk away from OMA loss that always sticks with me, which is, how is one to tell about joy? There's this difficulty to depict happiness and make it believable unless it's offset with suffering. Of course, how is one to tell about joy also invokes a broader thesis we borrow from bobbleheads and gets mentioned specifically in the shape of the sword. The idea of what one means that one man is all men, which of course we talked about a lot last time with Virgil shot Matthew and Santa Claus.

Whatever one man does, it is as though all men did it. That is why it is not unfair that a single act of disobedience in a garden should contaminate all humanity. That is why it is not unfair that a single Jews crucifixion should be enough to save it. Schopenhauer may have been right. I am other men, any man is all men. Shakespeare is somehow the wretched John Vincent moon.

how is one to tell about joy, which Ursula Gwyn goes kind of to length to talk about the fact that happy people are not stupid people that in describing people having joy, it's so easy to describe them as like, it's so easy to think about them as insufficiently realistic about the world. It's so easy to think of them as not very clever, because it's like, Oh, if they're happy, they must not be you know, they must not be informed about the world and everything. It's so hard to describe a series of people being happy like that. That's just not something we do. In the course of fiction, particularly, it's a difficult thing to try to depict and explain and instill this idea of happiness, and have it read as real to a reader. Like it's difficult for the writer and the reader to embark on a journey of, you know, investigating or exploring or understanding joy.

I think rom coms do well, though, I think there are genres that are built around love and joy and happiness. But their appeal is that they're escapism that they don't feel real in the sense that you're talking about, you know, you pick up most recently and I read was my roommate is a vampire, kind of a Halloween row, romantic comedies, supernatural, Goofy, over the top, very fun, because these characters fall in love, and he had to experience their joy and their happiness. But also he's a vampire. And there's a lot of very silly tropes that get played with that. It's just like, yeah, escapism,

a perfect segue then to a character who I think exhibit some of the most joy in the story of Les Moonves, I think in the musical was that gets a little bit more of it. Maria skits, a little bit more of it, but I really do think in the story, give Russia is kind of, like, master of his own world in a way that like, few of the characters get to be, and

especially the versions that do the song little people.

Yeah, yeah. I forgot about that song. Because is that left out of high number?

Yeah, it's not all all the recordings. But I think the London cast recording has it. And it's just a very upbeat, exactly what you're saying Bob Ross kind of creating his own world comic relief in the dreadful dreariness of Act Two.

It's interesting, given how much of the squalor of the present state of France in lame is how much misery we should expect from God versus life as a homeless child.

Yeah.

This story really goes to length, I mean, so much of the text of lame is details, the experience of Gavroche and of his ilk, of the various search in MRI, of, of Paris in particular, and like, how that and how they have different you know, slang languages and the different parts of parents how they have different like habits and customs and like this whole sub society, it everything amongst things. And it seems so bizarre to think about how unfortunate the circumstances of Gavroche are in the fact that, like, he, he is a child who dies. He's a child who believes in a better future for France as much as any of the Friends of ABC do and dies in effort of trying to help the revolutionary movement. Like Like he's so much a part of of it. And that loss and everything is kind of a signal of like the loss of innocence of of, you know, any of the characters who do survive and everything and Maurice does a good job saving of Russia's life at least once, which is a very cool thing in a nice combination of Maurices debt to the nerdy a family because this part didn't get into the previous recording because I cut out the whole first part Hey, listener at home. Did you know that gov OCE is the son of the TRD A's and Apennines little brother.

Yeah, I know this is not quite what you're saying. But Gavroche becoming the like this martyr figure and lame is makes him very appealing. He's like, kind of happy to lucky and then he dies tragically. And it got me. Again thinking about Annie and these Broadway shows that makes suffering as a child seems still appealing. There's a line and Annie where Mrs. Hannigan jokes. I don't know why anybody would want to be an orphan. And when I saw that this last time I was like, I know why you get to sing and dance on stage. It looks so fun. So that yeah, there's also that weird romanticizing of Waller and poverty and homelessness and wrapping that in with the innocence and joy of an ideal childhood. Oh, and then like just mixing it all together and presenting it on stage.

Yeah, yeah, the thing happening and Gavroche as kind of foils for one another. And you could extend that to the other to nerdy children who just don't matter as much. I shouldn't aren't features in the musical I think at all particularly. Yeah, because there are a bunch of other children who are irrelevant. Yeah, other ways into the musical. But the fact that the homeless one ends up happier and better off, then the one who's actually staying like Apennine with mme and we'll see what's an RDA i is, is in a terrible situation. Going back to the form of the sword, there's a line from it that really stuck with me as representative of so much in Les Moonves, which is only lost causes are of any interest to a gentleman.

He had studied ardently and with some vanity, virtually every page of one of those communist manuals, he would haul out his dialectical materialism to cut off any argument. There are infinite reasons a man may have for hating or loving another man, Moon reduce the history of the world to one sort of economic conflict. He declared that the revolution was foreordained to triumph. I replied that only lost causes were of any interest to a gentleman.

Oh, yeah. Which is both a good thing about the slim chances of any revolutionary movement against oppressive states. That applies to the Friends of ABC and everything but also there's a spirit that doesn't particularly happen in the musical easily could have that I'm like, fascinated by. I'm thinking a lot about the pivotal scene in the middle of the book in the generic DS apartment when the philanthropist who is secretly John Doe, John has been learned there and is about to visit, to make sure this kindly, rich man does choose to bestow His gifts on them to nrda orders his family to make their lives even more wretched. putting out the fire breaking their only chair having Apennines smashed their one window with her hands so the wind blows through which also leaves her with like a jagged, bleeding cut. Only last causes are of any interest to a gentleman sienta won't bestow His gifts upon us unless we're pitiful enough. It's not Christmas until somebody cries. If you want to know just how wild this scene goes, and how it escalates with Marius, Java air, two guns and a lifetime, you can catch a bonus episode of Katharine and I going deep into some parts of lame is the book that don't make it into the musical over on the moonshot network has Patreon at patreon.com/moonshot network. There's so much because it's, it's such a fast like, you could cut out all of the stuff that's in the musical and anything that is both in the musical in the book, you could take out all of the parts that are in the musical and then still make a musical about what's left over three hours long,

I'm sure. So you could do that a couple times too.

And so speaking of lost causes, and in a sense, I suppose gentleman but like mostly in a pejorative sense,

okay. Like Oliver Warbucks

I was looking for like a police informants. Oh, okay. And Java, they're kind of trying to, like secret himself into the barricade boys and pray like job there and Vincent Moon as like parallel In a sense, though, you could also do Marius and Vincent moon because Marius also is a snitch to the police. That's a thing that I don't think they do in the musical. But like, No, I kept

that out making more sympathetic probably. Yeah, it's kind of funny if lost causes are the only causes of interest. So the gentleman, that the way that the shape of the story, the story gets told, in a way where he doesn't want to admit upfront that he is the last cause. The story gets told through Oh, yeah, hi, I'm fine. I'm just a normal guy. Vincent mood on the other hand, Ooh, boy. Their character. And then the the twist at the end is actually I'm Vincent mood. I only told you all this this way. Because if you knew you were talking to a lost cause you probably wouldn't keep listening. You wouldn't want to have anything to do with me.

Which I think is, you know, tying into our earlier idea about stories being sad or true. Or it's like, how much more true does this weird little short story seem? With the fact that the guy who's telling is like, Listen, I'm, I am Judas Iscariot urine me like, I am like, not a good dude. Despise me? And we're like, Yeah, this is plausible. This is believable because he's so like, pitiful and terrible. People seem to really like shove air, who to me is like, up there with like, like, top villains in history in a bad way.

Like, and yet. He often gets played by very appealing leading then like parents men or norm Lewis, who often get cast as kind of the like, sexy male lead.

Jumper is not show philon You don't mean to flaunt shovel on is sexy show there in the Scarlet Pimpernel. Oh,

okay. Okay, sure. Expand, please.

Yeah. Shall I shall there's also not the beast, another Terence man, origination, I believe

I was gonna say it's a very, it's actually kind of similar to vehicle of the opera, though, because norm Lewis played the Pantone in the fact that like, as a character, not not appealing at all very dangerous man and from a morals. But because he gets played in a particular way, with a job there. I remember being fascinated by his affair well as a younger person. And I think it's that anti villain. That's not this, the phrase, the anti hero, I think it's a very often gets interpreted as something of an anti hero, not because of the writing, per se, but because he often gets played by really appealing, leading that like Terrence Mann or norm Lewis, who just imbue this, like charisma into that character.

So a lot of people like Chavez because he's like, extra pitiful, I think, amongst the cohort of people who I talked to who have always kind of loved Labor's as one of their top favorite things, and have had a fascination with like Job air and oftentimes like about Job and Job air as like a romantic couple and everything. I gotta say, I see it a little bit in just how much they're obsessed with one another. Totally, if

that makes sense. Yeah, kind of like a killing Eve situation.

Yeah. But God I hate shall bear so much. I think that I don't think gets talked about is Job Fair murders fun teen

that gets left out of the musical, which is why it's not talked about when talking about the musical

we jump there when Val Shawn has revealed himself and everything like the confrontation happens. The confrontation is happening. Java has just killed Fantine and he's like, that is not a crime. She is a sex worker. That is not a crime. Like I am an officer of the law. She is not a person to me. Very detestable, the book or sure, in bed, like when he's like, wait a minute, I can serve justice. I thought I had done a malfeasance by accusing Val John of being Val John when he was mostly alumnae. But now I know he actually is I thought the world was like slightly twisting in some way towards goodness and away from justice. But no, I can twist it away from goodness in back towards like, legalistic justice in a sense. And he like experiences like joy for the first time in a way like He's described as being this like our Archangel like but he feels this like power move through him. And he's like, seizing upon this opportunity to do something that feels like fulfilling for once. And that's killing fun team and like a resting version on and destabilizing this whole like Province, which has been successful because it's hard to good leader in the form of

a vegetable, right. But so in the musical adaptation, a lot of that gets watered down. And we have a man singing a really beautiful ballad called stars about wanting order in the universe, which abstractly is a very relatable thing, the concrete way he goes about pursuing that goal, I think is pretty detestable. But from a storytelling perspective, it is the character with a concrete goal on stage that's very specific to that character. But the concrete goal represents something more abstract that more audiences can relate to. And I think that's probably part of the appeal of John there is he makes such a compelling lovely argument for his abstract goal. Order and the universe make this make sense, justice, whatever, that even though, the concrete version of that is like, I want to arrest John Bel John for stealing a loaf of bread. And that's clearly like, not a great thing, like since about your life to pursuing your cause you makes his argument for the thing that he wants to Russia was on for isn't stealing a loaf of bread. Escaping prison? No,

it's for formerly having been a prisoner. Okay, and just not sharing that on his like a passport like, for like, just returning to civil life, instead of living a terrible life and dying. It just like, No, you aren't allowed to be just a citizen of France like that is that is the crime that you have committed you? Like, it's not like really? Yes, John has hurt people. There's a whole section of time where he's not a particularly good person. But the thing that Jeff is actually chasing them down for is like, you tried to be a good person, and you cannot be a good person. There is not again,

that gets watered down and the musical effects are much less egregious. It's less a little bit more vague, I think, then then all of that,

I think we get to that is when Val John, in the musical talks about he talks about like hating the world who is always hated him, right? Like when he does go around with his world who always hated me, right? Isn't that, uh, Sure, that sounds familiar. Yeah. Um, when he's talking about like, he's going to become a new man, after the bishop like was kind to him and everything. Um, I wind version does go around with his like, hey, what's my password? I'm willing to pay for stuff. I'm like, not breaking the law. Everyone is so miserable to him. Like, it nearly kills him. It is one of the most like painful points of the whole book is like experiencing the world through value John's eyes. It's like, oh, yeah,

I would break the law a lot, too. If people were this miserable to me after I'd suffered in prison for what? 19 years? That sounds right. Yeah, just for AQa FRC I'm looking at the lyrics. So it's for I had come to hate the world, this world that always hated me. Take an eye for an eye, turn your heart into stone. This is all I have lived for. This is all I've known. And that's him reflecting on his past life before the act of kindness from the bishop set him on a new forking path,

if you will, which is I think, in the musical I feel like it implies that like this, this whole history, which it surely does entail, like the 19 years of prison, but it's also like, even outside of prison, his life is extremely, extremely bad. And that's why he's like, wait a minute, if I just ignore if I break the law in this one little way, it doesn't hurt anyone. I can like, follow this grace and then provide grace to others, which is like what he literally does the whole rest of the book is like, be kind and generous. He's a philanthropist to others. Ah, I ended up talking about voted on a bunch again. Apologize, or apologies to the listener and in to Katherine for never not talking about jump eligible. It happens. We've all been there.

Um, what's a good way to kind of tie all these threads together?

Um, we've talked about Marius, can

we try to pull it in Carly? Huh? Ooh,

I so there's this line in Carly Rae Jepsen. It's not Chris Mr. Somebody cries which goes, my uncle made it worse by talking politics, I had a few opinions might have started a fight well, it's not Christmas to somebody cries, how important is fighting for what you believe in? To what, um, to Christmas to real life to making your life true to telling the stories that you want to tell to what you live for and what you die for, to dreaming a dream of days gone by asking how foreign is a pig fight or their racism pole at Christmas? To be willing to do so? And to and to actually do so you don't I mean, like, like, I think I am asking that question like, like, is that an important part of the procedure, the procession of Christmas, is that an important part of reality is not saying, I'm looking to start a fight. But it's when there is the intrusion of, you know, let's say, when bad politics happen in the world, standing up against those things, that that's like a necessary part of Christmas, about reality about revolutions, right?

I agree on one level, something that complicates that is human psychology. Um, and that the experience where sometimes when you're talking to somebody who is like, really adamant about their point, sometimes it makes you more adamant about your own point. Have you ever experienced that or like, read about that kind of phenomenon?

This is i, this is something that Ryan is like, Ryan does a lot of like reading and listening to like, how to help people who are in cults and like how to help deal with stuff. And it's like, it turns out, telling people that they're wrong doesn't help. Yeah, yeah. No, that's

what I mean. So like, sometimes, when you say like picking up fights, standing up for what you believe in, there's such a careful way you have to do that, where it's not going to actually just make things worse. But by the time verse, yeah, I mean, like, make the other person just more defiant, have their own opinion.

But also, at the same time, sometimes speaking up, even if it doesn't convince that person, it does, like, let other people in the room know that they aren't alone in having access to the negative politics. And so, you know, that

is a good point depends on how many people are in the room and who you're talking with.

And extrapolating that out to, you know, we've got two different two different potential revolutionary attempts between the Irish war of independence and this particular French rebellion, kind of, I want to reinforce the idea that even though we have not necessarily successful results for the individual characters, and everything, that a larger struggle against oppression is like, a valiant and good thing, because I think that that's something that, to me, is very clear, from Victor Hugo's perspective. Like, it's very clear that attempts at revolution are worthwhile, you know, as, as we look at that particular conversation between the bishop and the member of the convention, you know, this idea that the French Revolution is the most important thing since the advent of Christ, right, that quit literally Advent, you know, leading up to Christmas, that, that these things are necessary in a way to push back against oppression. And I feel like that's kind of what Carly Rae Jepsen is getting it in the song.

Thank you. Yeah. So you think there's an implicit encouragement, it's not Christmas till somebody cries have those fights stand up for like, Don't shy away from those hard conversations at Christmas, it's have that constant, it's banalities even

if your only options are have a few opinions, maybe start a fight. Or don't. If those are your only two options, picking the fight is like, you know, worthwhile, right?

Yeah, yeah, I see that. It's too so tongue in cheek without it. I'm not convinced that she's actually saying like, go out and do this because she's kind of flirty about it. Um,

but think about Leamas right? Yeah. Yeah. Think about the the Friends of the ABC the barricade, boys. Yeah. They are at this point where they see this as a necessary thing for the good of France, the good of their local communities, the good of Paris, the good of the individual people, even though it costs them their lives. I write. Yeah. Because, you know,

they have a few opinions might have started the fight. Okay, so yeah, if you're, if your uncle says something shitty at Christmas, and you're like, hey, oh, sorry. So if your uncle says something that's just like not accurate or problematic at Christmas, and you're like, hey, maybe let's think about that a little differently. You're not really risking your life. The fear is you're risking ruining Christmas, but by Harley rhodopsin is telling us it's not actually Christmas. So somebody cries that that is the conversation that makes it Christmas. Mm

hmm. The tears Even if the tears are on your part, because like, I gave it my all, I couldn't do any better. But I like I did give it my all. I'm gonna go cry about it my room for a little bit, and then I'll come back down for dessert, or whatever, you know. Yeah. That too, is part of like the struggle, right? That part that too is part of our revolutionary movement.

Yeah, but also, you're not alone, because there's a lot of other people having that same experience.

This is the story he told his English interspersed with Spanish, and even with Portuguese. In 1922, in one of the cities of cannot, I was one of the many young men who were conspiring to win Ireland's independence. Of my companions there, some are still living working for peace. Others, paradoxically, are fighting under English colors, at sea, or in the desert. One, the best of us all, was shot at dawn in the courtyard of a prison executed by men filled with dreams.

Oh, man, my translation is so much worse, up and then filled with sleep. And I just I think this is a very fun pin to our discussion last time about dreams and sleep. Yeah. You know, this idea of now life has killed the dream, my dream like What a fascinating thing to say, executed by men filled with dreams. Like, yeah, like, we don't think about the military police in lay miserab in the French Revolution, we don't think about, like the other side in the fight for the barricade because like, why would we? Yeah,

but I get so there. So we that's our invitation to think a little bit about what's happening. On that side.

It's interesting to think about describing the opposition in this way, though, it's interesting to think about the fact that like, they to have a dream for another vision of France, your uncle to who you're fighting with that Christmas has a vision for what Christmas is. Certainly Yeah. And I'd like to find a way to like, be at peace with that idea, without giving any like implicit or complicit support, to their vision of Christmas to their ideas for fans to their actions.

You know, I don't want to say, Well, everybody's got a different opinion, like, and just like a score there. But I think it often comes down to that concrete abstract goal, because very often, their abstract goal is pretty similar to abstract goals that a lot of people can relate to. It's just the concrete way of getting there gets distorted, or is leaving out important considerations. If Yeah, if

I suppose in a way, you're thinking about shot there as our emblem of this sort of man, Chavez, someone who effectively doesn't have a dream job here doesn't have a vision of a future for France. Java has the existence of the present and past and it's like delimitate in this way and it's a great

I think the some stars that says I want song and

I want things to be the way that they are and can never change from is that the like is that the I want of stars or am I misunderstanding what stars as a song is about um

so it let's be for so it is written on the doorway to paradise for those who falter and those who fall must pay the price. Lord, let me find him that I may see him safe behind bars. I will never Last few lines, his vision of France is one of justice and order and logic. And in his logical brain, though John is a bad man and must be punished. And he's missing out on the nuance and the reality of the situation. But I think he does have a vision for brands. I mean, he says, stars and your multitude scares to be counted filling the darkness with order and light. He wants to see a friends that fills the darkness with order and light. And, again, like what that means to him, especially in the book is quite apparent. But I don't think it's fair to say that he's not dreaming.

I guess just to me, his the answer to the question somewhere else beyond the barricade is there a world you longed to see for jogger? The answer is no, no, no, I

disagree. I think I'm somewhere beyond the barricade. Yeah. He wants to see everybody who's causing this ruckus punished.

I don't think that's, you know, we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't like it. But I think it is something that he he does have a vision for the world as he thinks it should be and wants it to be. It's not a good vision for the world. But I think he does have one. I mean, he sings in a musical. You can't really sing in a musical if you don't want something.

Thanks for joining us on this season of ILP pod for Christmas. Brought to you by the moonshot network. I moved. I'm Juliet you can find my writings at Foley on co host and you can find the show at Christmas on co host

and Catherine and I'm so grateful you've listened to us and join us this season. That's it how to test missed all

into all a pod.

There are no more kings and the summering lands will need to place only its people following its magic remain as if such things were so small. This is the Silver Age, an age of lords and companies of borderless wandering sorts men of young ruins and heroes history will soon forget. Join us for Argent and actual play podcast by Sasha Renault and Evan swapping, featuring two gems a custom game system and original visa. This show is brought to you by the moonshot Podcast Network. Listen every other Thursday wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on Twitter at Argent pod