S10E29 Susan Stone and Kristina Supler | Real Talk

4:14PM Jun 1, 2023

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

students

disabilities

christina

susan

issues

tim

inclusion

podcast

inclusive

educators

work

iep

program

educational institutions

families

clients

situation

school

fidgeting

parents

MCIE Brace yourselves for some real talk

My name is Tim Vegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you're listening to think inclusive, a show where with every conversation we tried to build bridges between families, educators and disability justice advocates to create a shared understanding of what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do@mcie.org I'm here at the circle of friends coffee shop in Woodstock, Georgia, recording my intros and outros for the month of June, so apologies for the background noise. As full time moms and attorneys Susan stone and Christina super bring a unique perspective to their practice. leading his student and athlete Defense Group at Cleveland based law firm Kjk. Susan and Christina have developed a robust special education and reputation management practices. They also represent students of all ages facing academic misconduct, and other types of discipline. Susan and Christina are nationally published authors go to authorities for journalists examining student legal issues and CO hosts the podcast real talk with Susan and Christina, which explores student issues and offers guidance for parents. Here's what we cover in today's episode, how Susan and Christina's work overlaps with educators interested in promoting inclusive practices and communities, the challenges of providing social support to students with disabilities in college dorms. And some of the topics they talk about on their podcast real talk with Susan and Christina. Before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about our sponsor together letters, are you losing touch with the people in your life, but you don't want to be on social media all the time. Together letters is a tool that can help. It's a group email newsletter that acids members for updates, and combines them into a single newsletter for everyone. All you need is email. We are using together letters. So think inclusive patrons can keep in touch with each other groups of 10 or less are free. And you can sign up at together letters.com. And now my interview with Susan stone and Christina, super

Susan and Christina, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having us. We appreciate it.

Hi, Tim. Pleasure being here.

I'm very happy you're here. Let's get into our questions. How would you introduce yourself to our audience of educators and families and whoever wants to go first?

This is how I would say I would say that Christina and I have built a practice helping students who are in crisis. So

working with students and families in crisis, we represent students of all ages across the country. We're based in Cleveland, but our clients and our students are here there and everywhere, including Antarctica, and and representing students in crisis. What does that mean? It's helping students navigate academic issues. Susan, when she talks about our special education work,

we work with parents who were believed that their students aren't receiving a free and appropriate public education. So we there are, they're saying no, no, we need a better IEP, we need a stronger 504 plan. We look at the placements for students with disabilities. And we try to follow those students along their journey to secondary education.

When those students get in trouble at times when they face disciplinary matters. We handle student misconduct proceedings. And under that umbrella, there's also the area of title nine cases we do a lot of work with students who are going through campus misconduct proceedings involving allegations of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, whether you're the accused student or the victim in the process.

So you know that so this, the our audience is mostly educators, and mostly educators who are interested in inclusion in promoting inclusive practices, promoting inclusive communities. How do you see your work overlapping with with the people that are listening to this podcast?

Well, unfortunately, it's sometimes we butt heads with educators. And I've got to be transparent and we try not to but it happens. It does happen and we butt heads with the educational institutions because there's not a person in the educational world who would not say that they support inclusion, Tim, I think all of us want to make sure that all students were See the quality of education. However, when there is a hiccup, when those students with inclusion require more accommodations, or an understanding of the disability, even in the most tense situations involving student discipline, that's where the rubber hits the road. And that's where you see, are you really committed to inclusion? Or when things get tough? Are you going to try to turn your back on that student? And that's where Christina and I defend our clients, because we say no, even if it's tough, we need to work through this, you can't just toss our clients sigh.

I think some of the tension we have at times again, we try to really collaborate with educators and the decision makers at institutions, whether it's primary school, high school beyond that the tension at times unfolds with student misconduct proceedings, and in particular, with colleges, we come across colleges and universities that offer and hold themselves out as having designed these really unique specific programs to meet the needs of a diverse student body. And so students who are neurotypical, but also perhaps atypical and offering these programs, however, when there's an expectation that all the same rules and regulations apply to these students, and sometimes maybe the students don't quite get it, right, we see there's a deterioration of the idea of support and inclusion, it becomes more a situation in which there's this overarching idea of well, we have the rule, you didn't follow the rule. Thus, you need to be disciplined. And we just find that to be at odds with the idea of inclusion times.

Do you have a specific example in mind of, of how that plays out, especially in the post secondary or college world? Every day,

we get that situation plays out. So whether it's a student who is on the autism spectrum and masturbate in the dorm room, not understanding that privacy is important that it might offend a roommate? Yeah.

I'm just just a no, no, I'm just gonna put a pin in that because I'm pretty sure that's not an uncommon thing in a college dorm room. You know what I mean?

Right. But most students who are not on the autism spectrum would understand that if they're going to masturbate, their roommate shouldn't be in the room. Right? Okay. Right. So we we've dealt with sex issues, we've also dealt with issues where students struggle with just navigating living with a roommate and the tension that arise and might not be able to stay in control and my decompensate, and what that looks like, I represented a young woman. And when she was upset, she went into a closet in a hallway of a academic building, and had a full blown meltdown. And instead of trying to de escalate the situation, campus police recall, and that made it worse. So understanding that when you except a student with disability, you have to understand what comes with that disability. And how do you address the hiccup, whether it's a sexual issue, such as masturbating in a dorm room, which is an uncomfortable thing to talk about, right? We don't like talking about masturbation. And I said the word four times, or when things go wrong in a student might not be able to neurologically stay together, how are we going to deescalate tension,

I would say another area, that type of case that we deal with regularly. As Susan mentioned, we do a lot of work on behalf of students on the autism spectrum. And in the Title Nine world we regularly see cases involving allegations of stalking. And really, at the heart of those cases, more often than not, is a student who liked someone maybe had a crush on someone was interested in dating, and maybe didn't quite know how to go about doing it. Or perhaps this student who was on the receiving end of the intention, the attention wasn't quite clear as to his or her interests or desires. And we often come across this idea of, oh, I don't want to be mean, I want to just let them down softly and so Oh, I'm busy. I'm tied up. I can't make it versus just saying, No, I don't want to go on a date with you. And for students on the spectrum who are exploring your sexuality and want to have independence and dating. It's challenging.

So what's the remedy for this? I mean, you are fighting for your clients. It's that it sounds like we need to be doing something to prepare these post secondary instead. additions to, if they're accepting people with disabilities like autism, you know, or, or whatever, that they need to be prepared to have them in their class. And to support them. Yes,

let's look at discipline in the public school setting until 18. Or for some students until their 22nd Birthday should a disciplinary situation arise, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act requires educational institutions to conduct a manifestation determination. What does that mean? Is the behavior a manifestation of the disability? And if so, what can we do to remedy the manifestation? Do we do a functional behavior analysis? Do we create a behavioral intervention plan? Well, if you think about it, Tim, nothing magically changes. Once you go from high school to college, the same disability exists. So I would advocate for a manifestation analysis to continue.

I think that that is something where parents and educators there's room for improvement in terms of everyone working collaboratively so that there is an understanding that not if but rather when certain behaviors occur, how do we respond to the behaviors in a meaningful, restorative or educational way, as opposed to just a punitive response? You did something bad, that's unique

to be punished. And I want to add to it, it's not always true that a disciplinary situations can arise. Maybe it's a social knee, maybe it's that student with a disability who's feeling very lonely and can't connect with other peers? How can educational institutions make sure that those students feel socially supported? Do they have like minded groups of students that they can talk about the issues that they face? Look, regular students can access fraternities and sororities and athletic teams, and there's a wide range of social opportunities, those opportunities need can be made available for students with disabilities.

Are you aware of an institution that does this? Well,

that's a good question. And you can tell that Susan and I are both pausing to think and reflect I myself have trouble identifying one institution as a whole that always gets it right. So I do believe that generally, the schools want to get it right and try to get it right. But you know, as life happens, and situations unfold, it's hard to get it right all the time.

I just want to say to to be fair to those educational institutions out there, we only see the cases that come to us when things go wrong, we see the worst, we see the worst. So to be fair, it's actually an excellent point. And you know, more balanced in our thoughts. We don't get nobody calls a lawyer and says things are going great. You we only get the calls when things break down. So we're not the best people to ask that question because they wouldn't land to us.

I think your question is, is a good one, Tim, and what we tell parents who are, you know, helping plan for the future for their child, whether it's college or something else, ask questions, you know, really push about programs and opportunities that the institution offers to different bodies of students. And then also press about, well, gee, this is all the sounds like, you know, roses and sunshine. But when things go wrong, you have a particular Dean of Students, for example, or contact person in a supportive services office who might be an intermediary to help triage the situation, whatever it might be,

have you run across any situations with institutions who have like a inclusive post secondary program? So for instance, I'm in the state of Georgia, in the University of Georgia in Athens has something called destination dogs, which is a program where they accept students with intellectual disabilities or other developmental disabilities. So they have not they have not accepted a student into their I guess, I don't know what the best word is general or mainstream program. It's still included on campus, some students audit classes, they're a part of the campus life. Do you have any experience working with clients that have been in those kinds of programs? You know, in your in your field? I'm not sure what I'm not sure what it's like in Ohio, but you

actually did work with a student with a, an intellectual disability, and she was accepted into a program at a nearby University, which was specifically set up to teach basic learning skills, how to live more independently, and it's an excellent program and does a really nice job. Of course, we got the hiccup that one able to navigate successfully for that client. But we see more and more students finding those programs as the need in our country has developed, even in the proposed new regulations for Title Nine, the Biden administration is really sensitive to the issue of out of the title nine regulations, how are they going to apply to students with disabilities. And I think there's more thought about the intersection between higher education and students with disabilities. But I want to point out, you know, we're talking about a really large umbrella. So there are those programs with severe intellectual disabilities. But then we have students out there who are in the regular education setting, possibly high high on the autism spectrum. And they're our best and our brightest students. They just have more social needs, but they don't have intellectual needs. In fact, they're outpacing other students in the intellectual realm, or academically. So you really, we have to be careful how we categorize different disabilities. Is it just a student in a wheelchair? Where a good, you know, the compliance with that portion of the ADEA? That requires elevators and ramps? Is it a student with ADHD? Who needs extended time? So I have a hard time having one conversation? Because I think that almost every educational secondary school would say that they accept students with disabilities. The question is, what are the disabilities? And what are the needs?

I would add that, perhaps for your listeners, who maybe aren't familiar with student misconduct proceedings, and what those look like and how they play out in real time, at the heart of, particularly in college student misconduct proceedings, is the idea that the student advocates for him or herself. And so what does that mean for students with communication challenges, in particular, really hard for them to stand up and speak and advocate for themselves and plead their case, so to speak the way lawyers do, because even with accommodations afforded to the students in these proceedings, most schools generally require the student to speak for him or herself. And so you can imagine how incredibly difficult that would be for someone, regardless of the circumstances, who's already nervous, maybe embarrassed about something never been in trouble before. So it's a completely new situation. And there's a lot that goes into these proceedings. And if you add into that, a student not having, you know, the ability to communicate, perhaps the way Susan and I would, it's difficult.

I agree, Christina, that was really nicely put very thoughtful,

very, I love how supportive of you are, you are. It's great to try and be tough jobs. So yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking of where we want to go from here. Oh, I had I did have a question about where to go. It was about it was about what are the, like an MDR? situation? Are you aware of any? Are you aware of any organizations, whether you know, it's legal advocacy, or educational advocacy that are pushing for reforms in post secondary institutions to change how colleges and institutions are supporting students with disabilities?

I am not. So I would give a shout out to those organizations, if they are involved, and they're listening to this podcast, and they want to reach out to Christina and I and get some input. We'd love to participate in that. But no, I don't know if that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Absolutely. I will say just, you know, anecdotally, Tim, in a couple years back, when there was a public notice and comment period for what we now know, is the 2020. Title Nine regulations, students, Susan and I actually went to see we did to speak to the Department of Education to address the issue of the need for disability accommodations for students in Title Nine proceedings. So to get more formalistic about it, the intersection between Title Nine regulations and the ADEA because that was a really, we felt significant issue that wasn't totally addressed and thought through by the drafters. And so it's it's an issue that's on people's radar and for want of education is improving. But we certainly always want to try to be vocal for the rights and interests of those students.

Okay, thanks. Yeah, just I was just curious about that. And then this is not this is not on my list of questions. But why is why is this work important to you? You Clearly both Christina and Susan, you're both clearly passionate about this. So, you know, specifically standing up for the rights of your clients. So why, what is your WHY with all of this,

I would say that in all the various facets of our careers, because Susan and I came to this work from different backgrounds, but we've always been the voice for, I guess, the underdog, so to speak. And so in any setting, and I think that Speaking for myself, after I became a mother and had my own children, and just became more aware of these issues and the impact on their lives, it just really hit home for how important it is to always be mindful of these really special students who have unique needs and circumstances and that, that those students are always you know, part of the conversation. For me

working with students, and especially those students with disabilities. This has been a 30 year passion of mine. Early on in my career, I worked for a small firm that actually represented school boards, and I practiced in the area, you know, from the school perspective. And then later, I became a hearing officer actually making decisions when there were challenges. So I was the neutral hearing officer in those matters. And then when I returned to more private practice, after my kids were a bit older, I decided I wanted to go from school side from intern dependent to student side, but I have always had my hand in this very issue. I've, my entire career has been based on this topic, because it is compelling to me, I am a mother first. And I would say that, looking at my career, I was comfortable saying that I was a mom first, when women were trying very hard to say, I can tough it out and denied their motherhood. I am a lawyer and I can compete with men. And early on, I remember saying after I had my first child, you know what this career has to fit within my role as mom, and I don't care what anybody else thinks this is my primary job is to raise these kids, I work to support my family, and I want my work to have meaning. And that has been my call to action. That's what gets me up in the morning is not only working with my children, but I tell my clients, whether they're disabled or typical students in a disability, I will treat you no differently and take care of you know, differently than if you were my own child. Now, that's got its pros and cons because I'm a pretty tough mom. So watch out, but I am a mama bear at heart.

Thank you for sharing that. What about for families who are concerned about this transition? You know, from high school, the families have an IEP there are some legal safeguards, as they move into whether they're accepted into a traditional educational institution or an inclusive post secondary program. You know, what are some? What are some things for families to think about? Are there any legal safeguards for them as they are looking to this transition?

That's a great question, Tim. And I guess I'm going to have to go dark, I'm going to have to go negative here, I really encourage parents with rising freshman college to have conversations about the criminal justice system. So once you're 18, you're an adult and police and prosecutors are not as sympathetic to various disability issues as educators and administrators in high school and who may have come into contact with students when they were juveniles. And so it's important that parents have these real world conversations with their children. So that if God forbid, the I'll say child, even though it's someone over the age of 18, comes into a situation that just doesn't quite go as expected. And God forbid there's police involvement, the student knows how to behave, what to do, what not to do.

I'm going to be a little more practical here. Most parents and students with disabilities understand that if they want accommodations, which is afforded to them under both the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehabilitation Act under Section 504, that you can get accommodations by registering with a school's Office of Disabilities and each school calls their Office of Disability something different since the Office of Disabilities dei inclusivity. Whatever the label is, what I would say is to get more specific to take the IEP to the office and say, can you look at this IEP or this 504 plan can something like this be actually implemented for my student or for myself, whoever is going to the program. And don't be afraid to share the relevant documents. Don't be embarrassed.

We see that a lot where students want to feel independent, like I can do it, I'm gonna prove myself and there's some, I don't know if it's shame or embarrassment, but the student doesn't want to come forward and say, Okay, here's my IEP, these are the challenges I face in life. And so it's really important. It's valuable advice that Susan's giving. I mean, look, I want

to talk about something that just came in the door, we have a student with disabilities in a primary school setting, and the student is constantly moving his leg up and down in his desk, and then the movement bumps into the other student and another student is screaming, I feel harassed, I feel uncomfortable, and it's causing a mass of legal issue. Now for the student with ADHD, moving a leg and shaking and fidgeting is quite normal. In fact, we know that many disabilities come with fidgeting students on the spectrum fidget students with ADHD says digit students with anxiety also, can fidget fidgeting. And I would also say typical students pigeon, right? Absolutely. Fidgeting is a common behavior. But fidgeting can be really annoying to other students and interfere with other students disability or right, sorry. So get specific, does that mean if a student is going to be sitting in a classroom? Should that student maybe sit separate? And apart from other students? How can we work through that that specific behavior that's just in a very concrete real world example, know what you need, and advocated do it before your student gets there?

Yeah, I know that, especially in in K 12. Some families create a document that's not that's a separate from the IEP, like a get to know you kind of document. And we'll give that to teachers in advance of the school year. So if they're moving, if they're rising fourth grader, they give this document or sometimes it's even a PowerPoint, where it introduces the child, it introduces their strengths, what, you know, what their triggers are, you know, just so that the educator understands, oh, this person is coming to me, this is how I can create a more inclusive classroom for that student. So I think that that would, that seems like that would alleviate some of those issues. I wonder if there's something like that, as we think about transition age students, something that they can give, like a cheat sheet, you know, along with the IEP, because a lot of times you get an IEP, and it's like, it's, it reads like a legal document. It is a

legal document. Like one, it actually is a binding document that the school is obligated to deliver on, and if they don't deliver on their legal repercussions.

But I think you're touching on a really important point, Tim, and at the heart of what, you know, what I'm hearing at the heart of what you're saying, is this idea of having open communication with educators and decision makers, about whatever the students circumstances are oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes what all the information is on the table with the people who need to know, right, because not everyone needs to no students absolutely are entitled to have some privacy. And indeed, federal law recognizes that. But you know, again, having dialogue and some transparency among the stakeholders, and in help sometimes alleviate these, these issues that bring people to Susan and me that bring people to our doors.

I agree. And I like your suggestion, Tim, and I think it's worth a shot.

Thanks. Are there any specific examples of clients that you could share about the I guess her wins? You know, the, we haven't necessarily been talking about inclusion per se, you know, so it could be a win for inclusion, it could not be a win I that I didn't want to, you know, painted into a corner with just inclusion. So let me ask that question again. So are there any specific examples of clients that you've worked with that that are wins for the client?

We see wins all the time? I think that's what keeps us motivated. Absolutely.

Do we get it 100% of the time? No. And any lawyer who says they win every time is lying. We really do have seen some great results, whether it's keeping a student in school when they're at risk of suspension, achieving a better IEP or a better placement where We're very fortunate that we have seen a lot of success,

or even neurodiverse college students, who are, you know, in a challenging situation, enabling that student to remain in on campus housing living in a dorm? Because I mean, oftentimes, isn't that what we think of as sort of the ultimate college experience living in a dorm? And so helping to keep students from various backgrounds in dorms. We've had many cases that wrestle with the housing piece, because it's a big part of the college experience. I miss living

in a dorm, I'd like someone to cook my meals for me, and what do you think and be with a bunch of friends around clean?

spaces? I know, I know.

Maybe that's why we're in this job to reminisce back to our college days.

Well, so before I asked you about your podcast, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Or feel like we missed in this conversation?

I think you've touched on all the important points. We're really appreciate your insight. Yes.

Nice conversation.

Okay, good. Good. All right. So Sue, Susan, and Christina, you have a podcast called Real Talk with Susan and Christina. Right title? Well, you know, kind of like what we're having right now, right? I'm putting you on the spot. But are there any particular episodes that come to mind that go, Oh, that was a really good conversation, so that you can tell our listeners about the podcast about real talk?

Sure. And yeah, for your listeners out there, check us out. We're on all the streaming platforms, real talks, and Christina. Nice. But Why thank you. There's a couple episodes that I think come to mind as being really important or powerful episodes. We hear often, we had a mother on who spoke about her son's experience going through the criminal justice system, and what the experience was for her child herself and her family, and just hearing about their family's journey through civil and criminal legal proceedings that we're regularly told, that was one of our best, our listeners really enjoyed that episode. Just because it's a perspective that you very rarely hear.

I liked a lot. We spoke to Dr. Mark McConville, on failure to lawn that was a good one. Today, I was really good talking about those students who just shared white move into what I would like to call as adulting. You know, the kid in the parents basement can't quite leave the nest. Yeah, so we talked about that. But we try to stay on top of current issues. And at the same time, there are some parenting issues that never change, positive discipline, how to discipline kids, that's important for all parents, and that's never going to change

recently, with the Supreme Court decision. dobs dealing with abortion, we had a wonderful guest on who we had a nice conversation about the considerations for families, as they're preparing for college. And, you know, the issues that students should plan for, based on, you know, their sexual experiences and in where they're at on the issue of abortion. And so that was a really nice discussion as well.

We've also talked about fentanyl. We try to tackle the difficult issues in a non judgmental, objective way. And that is really hard, because of course, we're human beings. We have opinions. We did one with two high school kids on canceled culture. And I still look back that was one of our earlier podcasts. And I still think that was an important discussion, as we see canceled culture play out every day. I will say, I think we're getting to be better at podcasting. It's definitely a different skill than being a lawyer. Absolutely.

And it's hard to one of our goals that Susan and I always talk about is what do we want to do we want to give accurate information to parents aren't parents with information so that families can make your own decisions based on their experiences and value systems and all of that. So we're not trying to be didactic, but we want to provide information and, you know, on topics that are difficult to talk about, and at times, sometimes we're better than others at not, you know, letting our bias take over. But no, we're human. We're human. That's right. And our goal is to just give information for parents on tough issues, and maybe issues that that aren't on parents radar.

Fantastic. So if you're listening, I hope you're listening. You shouldn't be listening. If you're hearing our voices.

Maybe you're driving Tim. Yeah. For those in the car. That's when I listen to my podcast, taking a walk or doing

the dishes see? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I listened to podcasts all the time, but mostly it's walking dishes laundry. That explains why I'm a bad

driver. Oh, no, I think there's other reasons.

Yeah, driving, running. So I'm a runner. So I run with Chromecast. Yeah, I do. Like I mostly listen to music, because I think that's what, you know, keeps me going. But sometimes a really good podcast will keep me going as well. I agree. Yeah. So please check out real talk with Susan and Christina, in your favorite podcast app. All right. How can families get ahold of you if they are interested in what you do?

Our website is student defense that KJ k.com We're also on Instagram at Stone Zoopla. And then of course, the podcast.

You can find us everywhere. We're here if you need if you need us, okay, but hopefully you won't need us. But if you do, you can find

Susan stone and Christina, Super, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast.

Our pleasure. Thank you for having us. It's actually nice to be a guest as podcast hosts. We love having guests, but it's kind of like having someone over to your house for dinner. As much as I love to entertain. I like the guest to

the show for a meal it is.

Think inclusive is written, edited and Sound Design by Tim Vegas and is a production of MCIE Original Music by miles credit. Attention school leaders. Did you know that you can team up with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education to promote inclusive practices in your school or district regardless of your location. MCIE has partners in Maryland, Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and more. Joining us in this work. Our goal is to expand partnerships in every state in the US and beyond. The first step is to start a conversation with us. Visit our contact page at mcie.org/contact. And let us know that you want to transform your educational services to be inclusive of all learners. Also, please mention thinking inclusive and your message to let us know how you found out about MCIE We can't wait to hear from you. A special thanks to our patrons Melissa H joiner II, Pamela P. Mark C Kathy V. Kathleen T. Jared T Gabi M Aaron P, Paula W and Carol Q for their support of thinking cluesive Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works