Let’s talk MONEY: The Mindsets. The Beliefs. And the Possibilities. - Lin Shi

8:18PM Sep 6, 2023

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Lin Shi

Keywords:

work

community

conversation

money

financial

family

story

part

feel

finances

world

give

people

love

becky

organization

stress

share

fellowship

podcast

Hey, I'm John.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

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So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Becky, oh my gosh, are you ready to talk about money?

Oh my gosh, are you ready to talk about money because I can tell you if my mom or my grandma were listening right now they would be clutching their pearls in hiding under the table. But y'all we're coming at it hard today. And we are coming at it where it's gonna feel good. So hold on.

We've found the most kind hearted teacher that can come into our house and just build us all up. And it is my sincere honor today to welcome Lin chi to the podcast. She's the founder of the money health collective. But Lynne is this relentless, which I love this word, relentless, practical idealist, you know, she's our people. And an all she does her focus is on building more compassionate world. And she's had this incredible career where she worked across the public, the private the social sectors, to create more financial wellbeing, which would lead to more inclusion for everybody. She's just casually a Fulbright Scholar. She's super involved in Los Angeles area with how she's pouring into her work. And she's also a principal consultant actuary over at Mercer. How do you do all these things? Then I just need to know. But we wanted to tap your brain because we got connected with you because of the MIRA fellowship. And if you listen to last season, we discovered we kind of followed the thread of the mirror fellowship, like where do these incredible organizations find their wings, find their people get clear on what they want to do in the world. And apparently, the mirror fellowship is just this magnet for these type of humans. I just am delighted to meet Lynne today, and have you on the show Welcome to the We Are For Good podcast, can you tell her a little excited you're here.

So excited to be here with you both, I still hear that the listeners can't see me just beaming and smiling and also lightly blushing, because you're also so kind. And it's just really, really a huge pleasure to be able to be here and be with you all and talk about this.

I mean, you're very kind, but I had to like trim your bio, because you said there was

a lot more in there, Fulbright Scholar, yeah.

Space to tell a little bit of your story, we invite everybody to kind of take us back to growing up, tell us a little bit about your formative moments that led you to want to pour into this work today.

Thank you, and thank you so much for asking, and for creating the space for all of us to be able to share our stories. So for me, I think finances has always been sort of like a subliminal piece of our life, our family life. But I imagine this is true for for really everyone in the way that it makes up such a foundational element of our own well being. And so with my family, so I'm born in England, I grew up with my my parents at the time, my father was in the middle of pursuing his PhD, we were living off of very little, it was just a research stipend, really. And so when I was quite young, I had to actually go back to China where my grandparents were to live, because we didn't have the financial resources within our family to support me living with my parents in England at the time. And then eventually, as as our family's financial situation improved, you know, we emigrated to the US, my father is an engineer, he had a great career in Silicon Valley. And so we ended up moving from a space of relatively limited financial means to space where we had enough for ourselves and enough to give back to our communities as well. And I think throughout that thread, though, it's interesting is, regardless of how much money I feel like our family has had, throughout our lives, like the imminence of financial stress was always present, regardless of whether we had little or we had more you that that stressor was always present in the family. And so, so that's on a personal level, part of why I was really kind of interested in becoming involved in this work around financial well being because there's this, this this sense that people think that, you know, if if I have more money, then the problems that I have, will, will dissipate or it will lessen, and some of those will but then there comes other issues. And so something that in the work that I've been doing with companies around financial well being and working with organizations talking with individuals and communities, is that about the financial well being that it's sometimes, you know, after you reach a certain level of, of income and having a certain amount of money, you still feel some sense of financial stress and some challenges to financial well being that doesn't just go away just because there's more money. So So I think that's something that we've been talking about with this money health, collective work is thinking about, well, how do we address some of those emotional factors that are are driving potentially some of those concerns and some of those financial stressors and being able to actually talk about what is it that's, that's creating that level of anxiety or guilt or whatever it is, I think has been really powerful in helping people to reframe, what is it that we're actually all working through? And then if we all start feeling like we have enough, and for the most part, we all, for many of us, we do, and for many of us, we don't. But for those of us who actually have the financial means to take care of ourselves, how do we ensure that we're not getting into a place or a rat race of Keeping Up with the Joneses? And rather than really thinking about how do we give back to the community, especially for those who actually objectively don't have enough to get by? So that's sort of sort of the, the mentality that I've brought with the creation of the money health collective and it's been a really beautiful journey so far.

Okay, of course, I have a lot of thoughts about this. But the first one is, Lynne, she, I like you so much. I like who you are. I like how you tell your story. I think storytelling is just such a medium for everyone in the way that you have threaded, the way that money is intersected into your life leading you into this place where you're relieving individuals, communities, of financial stress, what a gift to the world. So thank you for centering us in your story. Because I think it gives a really nice springboard into this come this conversation we're going to have about combining the emotional side of money with the intellectual components of money. And it is such a conversation for every single person who's listening right now, I don't care if you're a fundraiser, I don't care. If you're somebody working on the operation side, I don't care if you're just somebody who gives to your pet charity, the way that we think about money affects the way that we move. So I want to start with the emotional piece. Talk about how the emotional component about having conversations around money, what does it do to us? Why is this such a hard topic to talk about publicly?

Thanks for asking that question, Becky. And I like you and John so much, too. And Julie is listening behind the scenes right now. So I just started Great, thank you on the emotional aspects of money. And I think why this is so challenging to talk about. And I imagined the listener probably identifies with some of these some of these emotions. But as we've started talking with more and more people about their financial stories and the the emotions that they hold, that so many of these like really challenging emotions come out whether it's like shame, about not knowing something about what to do about their money or decision that they made in their past that may not have worked out in their favor, or it's their or anxiety or about the future, or guilt for whatever reason. And so those emotions come out very strongly in fear. And so I think just because those are emotions that we tend to, if we have the ability to not face them, when they're not ones that we have naturally or feel drawn to. So I think that's a big part of it. And I think there aren't too many spaces in our society where we can talk about these in a way that feels safe, and conducive and helpful. That's not in a space where someone is forced to be in a position where they're there, they're feeling extremely vulnerable in an environment that may not necessarily feel safe to them. And so part of why we started the money health collective honestly, it was a bit of a fluke, was John mentioned the mirror fellowship. So that was the container through which we built this, and I'm so grateful for the mirror fellowship for for chi and CO. And also for Travis are believers, the one who connected timecode to you both, they did such a beautiful job in in trying to get us to look at these issues from different perspectives. And so I had originally come to the mera fellowship, I'm more of like a operations mind by nature. So I was just thinking like, how do we bring these pieces together the people who need access to financial planning, and the people who have the donation the funds and the people who are the financial planners and just figure out like an ecosystem altogether. And that was my original thought. And then what I realized, as we started kind of having what we will start will be called these empathy interviews with an intent individuals like essentially the people that we would be looking to serve with the money health collective, that what was really challenging for them was actually just getting to the place where they wanted to talk about this topic in the first place, that there was such a huge barrier in wanting to even start having this conversation about what they would be looking for in this financial well being ecosystem. And then so we started designing tools that was just originally was just as a as a way to test like, how do we build something we just started started designing tools to make it easier for people to talk about money. And then as we started designing those tools, we realized that that was actually the issue that needed to be addressed, which was, what are the emotions that people are facing as it relates to money? And how do we help people really be able to share those in a way that felt safe to them and held space for them and also was would allow people to feel like they could reflect on their own stories and feel empowered to take action. And so if I could share actually a few quotes for

your show your mic, take it Lin,

I just captured a few from like a recent session that we held. And I felt that these were really a really good way of, of just understanding a little bit about how people were feeling and what they took away. And so in the process of sharing, somebody mentioned that one of their takeaways was, I am not alone, even though it feels like feels that way. And I do not need to feel ashamed of my lack of knowledge, I'm doing the best I can with what I have. Someone else said, saying it out loud to people makes it actionable, because I think they were drunk, struggling with a few things and wanting to actually have the space to share it. And then somebody else's takeaway was, I need to spend more time consciously thinking about my finances and discussing them with people I feel safe around. So I think that was all to me, like really powerful, because that at least it's moving towards action in a way that's not like somebody else telling you like, here's the budgeting that you need to follow. Here's the product that you need to buy. It's what does this mean in your life? And how can you be supported and, and taking the actions that best serve you?

Okay? There's just lots of things that I want to riff on for a minute. But this is how we talk about our missions work, because you could have come in and said, we do financial wellbeing counseling, and you go in and you see such dignity and light around these beautiful people that you serve. And you have just been wrapped, wrapped your arms around them, even saying empathy, interviews and how you go about this work, and how you describe and take us into that sacred place. I mean, we're all leaned in of like, How can I help, you know, and I'm so curious, y'all now work with people across 20 different countries, I feel like you've just started like so. But you think of like the intersectionality of lots of things. And you think about the cultural implications, and just, you know, the upbringing and all the different factors of of working across different countries? What are some common themes and differences that you see, as you work? You know, about talking about money across different cultures, where there's all sorts of different beliefs and systems?

Oh, that's such a good question, John. And I think, I mean, one thing that's been surprising, I felt that was that there's, there seems to be more commonality than there is difference. I mean, there's so much, there's so many cultural nuances. But for the most part, like we've had spaces where we brought in people from, like in the same call, somehow, across all of these different times, so they happen to all join at the same time, where there's somebody in the call from Germany, someone from the UK, someone who's Sri Lanka, someone from someone from the states from or from Canada, and then we're all just on the call together, and we're just talking about our own stories. And then for people to hear like about, know how finances have taken root, or, or their own personal story as relates to finances. And then just to find resonance, and each other's stories has been really powerful to say, you know, like, not only am I not the only one who's dealt with this issue, there's someone literally across the world, for me, that's dealing with something quite similar or has dealt with something quite similar. And so I don't feel alone, because this is not just a local issue, this is really a universal issue. And maybe it's something that we can kind of start addressing together. I will say I feel that there's some cultures, and we've noted that I think across Asia, in particular, there's more of a willingness to talk about the numbers as it relates to money, they're just more willing to say like, this is how much I'm I'm earning or this is how much my rent is than we've seen in potentially other cultures around the world. But I think the way that that's talked about is also interesting. And, and I know and digging a bit deeper with some of the participants or just talking with people about this topic. Something that's come up is that they mentioned that even though like sometimes people talk about the numbers more, they're not really talking about the numbers and the way that or the the way that it's impacting our lives and more of that, that that story element that Becky mentioned. It's more like, I joked with one person that is like, it's more of an artistic nature, and the nature of like, comparing or complaining that it's like, oh, well, like I'm making this much money. But why is it not more? Or it's like, oh, that person's making that much money. But I can do more than that person? Why aren't I making more? And so it's not so much of a story about how is that impacting my own journey and my own my own sense of well being but more of a sense of feeling of lack. And so I think that's part of the conversation that I think we do need to be better about as a community, as a global community, just so that we can be there to really support one another and lift one another up. Instead,

you're getting down into a really important heartbeat hear, which is just navigating these conversations about money and how do we, in this space, we're talking about money all the time, it is deeply personal. Help us understand how our finances can play this role, and how we live and how the stories we tell can help reshape the way that we bring people into our work or in the way that we give I would love to get your thoughts on that.

I've kind of divide your question into two pieces. If that works. I think the first is on the stories we tell and the second And part is how we use those stories to commit and give back to the community. I think in the stories that we tell, something that we do within the money health collective that I would love if people just did more often with one another, is actually something that was inspired by by a few of my coaches in the mirror fellowship is this idea of drawing out recall a journey map of essentially from birth until now, if you're drawing it with like an xy axis, like the horizontal, the x axis would be like your birth until now, and then the y axis, the vertical axis, thinking about like, what the level of your own well being like whether it's like, in a sad state or like a happy state? And then the question that I would ask is, how have you felt about your own financial well being? If you look at that, that line going from birth until today? And and I think sometimes, like, even just drawing that out for yourself is interesting, because I think that's what we, we start the conversations with this question of, like, if you were to draw that out, and then describe where there have been changes in that, that graph, like then the peaks and valleys, what what drove those for you. And I think more often than not, being able to speak those out loud, and having somebody to riff off of, you'll find that a lot of those peaks and valleys are fairly aligned, at least in observing all these conversations, that you'll find that many of the peaks and valleys that we each face are quite similar across communities and and even amongst strangers. And, and I think a lot of times being able to see it visually helps being able to think about what does it mean for this journey that I've been on in throughout my life. And as it relates to money, and being able to think about that story and think about how, as my life has changed, maybe in the past, there have been times when it's been really difficult. But look, I've been able to make my way through it. And maybe right now I'm at a point where it's really challenging. But that's happened in the past, and we can make make her way through. So I think that's been something that we found, at least in the sharing of stories to be really powerful, because then it becomes this space where you're not anchored in, like, whatever it is that I'm making right now. Or like whatever it is, I'm trying to make the future it's much more integrated into our lives. And so that it becomes just part of our identity and are part of our story, rather than something that feels like we need to have more of if that makes sense.

It does. And I think I mean, I feel the drumbeat of like community coming through this conversation, you know, that's something we always come back to, you know, it's if it's a value of yours, it's one of our core values, community is everything here. And I think it's that realization that you're not alone, that when we verbalize these things, it's so much of a better world in place. And we feel seen and supported. And so I'm starting to think about just like the listener today, we were surrounded by people that love the social impact space on this podcast, we have people that fundraise for a living. So they're talking about the impact of dollars. And on this podcast, we talk about how all of us are Philanthropist as we center, what's most meaningful to us in our life. And I want to talk about how this impacts fundraising. How do we let go of our personal beliefs about money when we're soliciting? And how do we get to the heart of what matters most for the person sitting across from us?

It's a challenging one, because it's balancing both your own personal beliefs about money with with the person that's sitting across from you, right? And I think maybe maybe I can start first with how do we center ourselves in and what it means to give from our own lens. And then I was just actually talking to Becky right before this about a story that she wanted to share. So I'll pass to her as well to talk about that. But I think it's philanthropy is interesting. Conceptually, it's it's interesting, because it's thinking about what, for an individual's perspective, what does it mean to give back and how do we use money in a way that feels aligned with the way that we want to give back to our own communities. And so thinking about, I think, something that I like to say in the way that we run the money health collective that is that the money, our money, if you think about it, it's like sort of, like fundamentally an extension of us that if we need to, that the way that we use, the monies should be aligned with how we show up in the world, and what we value in what the world that we're looking to build and to create. And so I think something that's really important, as we thinking about that, from like, an everyday philanthropist point of view that if everyone is interested in giving and giving back to the community, making sure that the we each fill up our own cup, and that we're able to take care of our own needs. And then whatever is in the overflow, that we can invest in whatever it is that we see as being the as creating that world that we want to live in for ourselves and for our communities. So from the philanthropic angle, like there's the what we're what we're fundraising for, and what we're personally giving to is also sort of an investment of different senses, thinking about how do we take the money that we have access to for ourselves and thinking about how do we give that into the community organizations that create the returns in the world that we want to build towards? And so that's something that I think about a lot as we think about that word, everyday finance to pay. And I was talking with Becky earlier. And she mentioned that she had an interesting story to share, especially with the interaction between somebody who is doing the fundraising and and the person that you're fundraising from. And, Becky, if you would like to share that story, like you

need your own podcast, you teed me up so nicely, I was just talking to you all, you know, off off recording about this experience I had when I was about 26. And I was a marketing director at a major university Foundation. And my boss came to me and said, Hey, we just hired the Indiana School of Philanthropy, one of their consultants to come down and do a three day intensive on major gifts, and I want you to go because I want you to be able to communicate, you know, major gifts and their importance and why we're doing them. And I want you to understand the whole scope. He was very, very wise, he had no idea I'd be a fundraiser someday. And so I'm in this classroom. And we're getting to the part where we're talking about the pitch, and how do you lay down the pitch. And I remember this part, as clearly as if Gwen was standing in front of me right now, I still remember her name was Gwen. And she says, when you drop your pitch, you're not dropping a number, you're dropping an opportunity. And what you're doing is an extending an opportunity to someone to come into your mission, there should be no surprise about that number. If you have cultivated them, well, they're going to know roughly, or exactly what's coming. But the reality is, she made us all turn to each other in pitch. And then she said, When you get to the pitch with the number, I want you to say the number and then I want you to shut up entirely. And she said, And let me tell you why. Because so many people that have limited beliefs about their money, or the limited beliefs they put on their donors about their money will start to talk themselves out of that number, because they think it's too high, they'll start to make up scenarios that they think they know, based on snippets of conversation or background information into their wealth rating. And she says the reality is, there's a lot of fundraisers that get up there and say, we're honored today to present this proposal to you for a $250,000 Endowed Chair. But if that's too much, we have another option here, that's $125,000, where you could do a professorship, and all of a sudden, you haven't even taken a breath. And you've rescinded the highest offer and offered, you know, a half priced item beneath it. And she's like, give your donors the dignity of knowing what the value of that transformation is. Don't feel shame about it. Like if they understand the impact, and if you've communicated the impact. And back to your point, Lynn, if you have threaded in your values, and why this matters, if you have painted the picture of why this is the exact right person to come into your mission, and bring this one thing alive, then the price tag is just a component of it. It's like, let's be honest, the 10 most uncomfortable seconds, or maybe the two most uncomfortable seconds for a lot of us, but it's not the thing. And so I just share that because it really got into my 26 year old head that I totally would have been the one that pitch the higher number and completely backpedaled. But you don't have to, because donors are worthy of understanding what the value is. And I think we just can't make assumptions about them. At least that's what I've been learning in my journey.

I think it's so good. And I remember I think is Julie Ordonez in the habits of an impactful major gift series. She's like, your money problems or not other people's money problems necessarily. That's right, she didn't know I remember, I think that's a cool place to start. But we're talking about, you know, some of the negative aspects of maybe how we feel held back or feel kind of closed in because of how we maybe show up in the world because of money. I'm curious about the transformation you see. And I know you see this in your work with money health collective. But what and I know it'd be true in our own lives to what's unlocked, when people find this financial well being.

I think what I've been finding, at least in the work that we're doing with the money health collective, and we're seeing it build is that if we can start kind of unlocking some of those challenging feelings as it relates to money, John, then then it makes a lot of other parts of our lives easier because we talked about how financial stress is one of the number one predictors or components of mental stress. And then that that mental health and well being then affects our physical well being. And it affects the ways that we show up for our families shows affects the way that we show for our communities. So I mean, all of these are, so it's you can't really say that one is the driver for the other, but that they're also interlinked, but if we can effectively tackle one of them that in my mind, I think financial stress is one of the foundational aspects of it, if we can effectively tackle that, in a way that's not just about like, giving you more products or tools, but more about like let's unpack that emotional aspect of the financial stress, and then coupled that with some of the more traditional aspects of finance To support whether it's the the budgeting and investment management and all those things that exist out there, then then we can actually tackle that financial stress at the at the root. And then we can then use that to build upon and create communities and families that are thriving and joyful and well. And one of the things that actually one of the inspirations for building this at the very start was, it was during the initial, the initial parts of the COVID pandemic, when it became clear that there were a lot of these in the remains to be polarity in terms of how our society is functioning in the way that we're not necessarily speaking to one another. And if we get to the heart of that, I mean, there's so many factors, and I don't want to oversimplify, but the economy and finances is such a critical part of that people are thinking that, you know, they're taking my livelihood away, or they're taking this aspect of my financial situation away. And if we can better address that financial element to the point where people can at least feel a sense of dignity and financial safety, then I think that can be a huge factor in allowing our communities to feel a lot more cohesive and supported. So that's, that's my hope is that if we can address this, then hopefully, then we will have that civility and the other emotional, that emotional security to then be able to tackle a lot of the other bigger issues that we're facing as a society.

Thank you for being a pioneer in this, I just keep thinking about how proud Your family must be of you, Lynn like I'm seeing tiny Lynn and from the UK to China to the United States and how this anthem and rhythm of your of your life is something that you're pouring into others. And you know how much we love story, and we're going to celebrate it on this podcast every day episodes. So I want to know from you about a time where philanthropies really intersected your life and left this indelible imprint Do you have a story of a time where you had a moment with philanthropy that will stay with you for a while.

This is one situation a few years ago, so on a on a nonprofit that I sit on the board of now in Los Angeles called Pathways LA, it's a beautiful organization focused on early childhood education for anyone interested. But a few years ago, our board president passed away after serving the organization for for a very long time. And in his end of life celebration, whose request on behalf of his family was actually to anyone who wanted to actually donate towards organization that he had given so much of his heart towards while he was in his later stages of life. And so it was because of him actually, that our organization started, essentially this unrestricted fund that we could then use to give back to families. And in any way, because prior to that most of the funds that we were receiving were for specific purposes. But this allowed us to really serve our families in a really big way. And so I've always been so grateful for for him and his leadership and his inspiration, and just how much what he's done is ends up still being something that our community is still having access to today. So that's my small little bit of philanthropy that I

see building right there.

So you know, we round out, which is making me sad that this conversation is kind of winding down today. But we end all of our conversations asking for a one good thing, maybe a mantra, or a life hack or a motto or what's striking you that you'd want to share with us today, Lynn,

we don't have to choose one thing to do one thing to pour ourselves into that I think the way that we're thinking about our careers now can be done in a much more long, nonlinear way. It doesn't have to be like one job to the next. The idea of balancing like career with philanthropic work and being able to explore interests broadly. As long as you make sure that you're really taking care of yourself in the process. But really using that as an opportunity to explore the different things you're passionate about. And even with Becky's beautiful story earlier about, about asking for support or asking for whether it's the big gifts or it's just bringing people in to support you on the missions that you care about just being open to to exploring different ways to approach that. And John, if you wouldn't mind if I could share something really quick with our listeners as well as something that I'm very excited about with the money health collective. And first time we're actually sharing publicly it was that we were able to, to, to arrange a contract with a global financial planning provider so that everybody as part of the money health collective at least all of the entire membership to date, has access to a year of free financial planning, thanks to the generosity of the partner organization but also some generous donors as well. So it all kind of came together and and so that you can bring kind of both the emotional aspects of money to something that's really tangible and helping to plan towards the future.

What a beautiful alignment you know of a funder and your mission. Like I love hearing that. So

congratulations love that and so excited for your for everyone who's taking advantage of your services. And we want to give everybody that connections to come dive deeper with you so, so tell us where you show up and hang out.

I think you can go to money health collective.org, it's probably the easiest place. If you on the top right corner. If you wanted to join us for money conversation, you're more than welcome to just click that link. And they have, we try to at least have one conversation a month, if not more often. And you're more than welcome to come join us there. And then we can get you involved in all of the different activities that we run as part of the collective and we would be really, really wonderful to see you there.

I just think you're such a beacon of hope. I've gotten so much from this conversation. Thank you for coming in and really encourage any of our listeners who want to go deeper. Come find Lynne, please come find the money health collective. This is just an incredible organization.

Thank you so much for having me. Even John, this has been such a beautiful conversation. I'm really, really grateful to be here,

rooting for you.

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