[Quiet Rebels® Podcast] Episode #123: How Boundaries Shift When You Go from 1:1 to 1:Many Offers with Suzanne Culberg

8:22PM Aug 7, 2022

Speakers:

Mai-kee Tsang

Suzanne Culberg

Keywords:

people

boundaries

group

clients

work

run

suzanne

business

moment

uphold

coach

feel

tech

question

thought

listening

container

differently

hold

clear

Hello, my wonderful quiet rebels, I am back with one of my favorite humans. And we're going to be talking all about boundaries, and specifically how they shift when we go from one on one into a group. So if you are a one on one service provider, and you're thinking of creating a group offer, whether it's a group coaching program, or you're holding space for just basically more than one person, how those boundaries need to really adapt along with that, because there are some transferable threads to from the one on one to the group, but not all of them are applicable. So we're gonna get super deep into this today, and I'm super excited. So, welcome, welcome. Suzanne Kohlberg.

Thank you, Mai-kee. I'm excited to be here. Okay,

so we've had these conversations before. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, okay, so, so much to get to before, let me just like dial my excitement back just for a moment and ask you, for those of you who have yet to just get tongue tied myself. Okay, for those who have yet to stumble across your work, let us know a bit more about your journey. And I work Why is this so important to you this, this conversation here about boundaries in particular?

Ah, such a good question. So, I've been in business for five years now, I originally started as a weight loss coach of all things. And that's a whole long other story. And originally, I coached one to one as most of us do, and I got booked out, which is an awesome thing to happen. And then I was like, actually, I wasn't like my coach at the time was like, It's time for a group. And I identify as a highly sensitive person and an introvert. And I was like, I don't think I've got what it takes to facilitate a group. So there was bit of back and forth, and we decided that I would trial it for three months. And now I'm going into my fourth year. So it turned out to go really, really well. But in the beginning, as you were saying, and I love to hate it on the intro, there's some transferable skills, and some not, I didn't hold boundaries with my clients, and I have to take my full responsibility for this, like, I'm not going to get into client blaming, like this was me and the lessons that I learned. But I kind of felt that group was a cheaper way to work with somebody, like, you know, not a whole different value proposition. But like, if I can't afford to work with them one on one, or they're doing a group now. And so what happened is a lot of my one to one clients downgraded from one to one, two group, I hadn't anticipated that happening. And, and then I had, so it was a different value proposition. And I didn't hold the boundary there. But I still kept serving them in the same way, like voice message or messenger, coaching, email, all that kind of thing. So I actually did myself a disservice and hamstrung my business. Inadvertently, I'm very fortunate that I have a partner who could take care of us financially. So, you know, it wasn't as bad as it could have been. But yeah, and the thing at the time, which, you know, nearly cost me my business has actually been the gift now, because I've restructured my business entirely. And now I am a boundaries coach, and I help people set boundaries in a way that feels good, and not only set them but uphold them, because it's easy to go, I'm going to say all this and then when in a moment of having that uncomfortable conversation, running and hiding.

raising my hand have definitely had that moment before. And before we move on, I feel like there's something I really want to ask you that you said in one of the first sentences when I asked you the question, you know, how you got into this work? You said how you identify as a highly sensitive and introverted person. And therefore, you felt like you could have facilitated group for anyone else like because I'm also a highly sensitive person and introvert, right. And I also hold a group project. But you know, personally, I have a very small number in my groups for a reason. But for anyone else who's listening right now, who may actually feel that as well. What was it originally that made you feel that way? And how have you managed to do this now? At scale?

Oh, that's an excellent question. So what made me feel that way is from my experience, a lot of the containers and the groups that I had participated in, had been led by extroverted people they were an even like, going to conferences or attending events. It's funny people kind of didn't understand my introverted nature. Like if I said on an application or if I said that I'm introverted. I get the response of Oh, don't worry, we'll introduce you to a friend. I'm not saying that I can't make friends. I'm not saying anti social, I just I need a lot of time to recharge, I need space and being in a container, where it's the often the loudest voice in the room that gets heard. And I love how that's part of your messaging with quiet rebels, you don't have to be the loudest voice. But also in group coaching containers that are often have like raise your hand to get coached. It can be like that race to the chatbox kind of energy. Oh, yeah. Which kind of makes me die inside. So I just felt like I hadn't seen anybody, like me facilitate a group and I was worried in the beginning that I might be railroaded isn't the right term, but like, you know, kind of, you know, the biggest energy is holding the container. And I don't want to be, you know, the person who's holding the container. But it's also like talked, I kind of I'm not probably describing it very well. But I was just, I was hesitant of that. And I like how you said, you run containers, but you keep them small, I've wanted to scale. And that's still my goal, I want to grow my program, I am growing my program to 100 people in around I currently have 22 in this one. So it's slowly increasing, thank you. But it's kind of the skill, to be really clear on how the group works and how it's run is something that I didn't have in the beginning, and it still gets to evolve every round. So I think for anybody who's like I can't might feel similar to what I did, I thought that helps me is my best gets to get better. So every round of why wait, I give it my best. But then my best gets to get better. So it continues to grow and evolve. And just really being clear and honest about you know, how you run things. And the space that you may need, and the capacity that you have is a gift for people in the group. So yeah, now I think, you know, we've got going on highly sensitive people, we know how to do this. Whereas before, yeah, I was very, very nervous.

Well, thank you so much for sharing that the journey of discovery of like, oh, actually, I can do this. And I can do it frickin well, as well, which is wonderful. So for you, you've managed to, like you've opened up the potential for you to have up to 100 people in your container. Like, for me, I'm like, Whoa, the 100 people that like that, that love that, you know, even though we are both highly sensitive people, we operate in different ways. And something else I'd like to add to that as well. Something that helps me personally with running the sustainable visibility incubator, is the fact that I invite people to kind of CO hold the space, it's like, Yes, I'm the one who guides it and facilitates it. However, we like to invite everyone to look out for each other. Instead of those, there's one person who was in the incubator, and said to me, I feel like I'm held here instead of holding myself amongst other people who are holding themselves. So there's something very isolating about their imagery. They're like, think of someone who's like crossing their arms, like literally just holding on to their own arms, but they're in the group, but they're not connected. And so it felt like such an honor when they said that to me, like that I feel held here and I feel imagine that everybody in the circle that closed arms, but then that shifts when they open their arms, everyone's holding each other. It's a beautiful, beautiful image that comes to mind. And to me that has been quite the antidote to that overwhelm that King, like that washed over me when I thought, can I hold a group? I mean, introvert, highly sensitive person dramas, Viva all of the things. A lot of things. Yeah, each their own. But thank you so much for sharing your journey there. And I do want to of course, make sure that we get to the meat and potatoes or the alternative. What What can one have like mushroom and potatoes, I guess.

It's just like broccoli, but

one of our inky buddies said instead of bringing home the bacon, footfalls the vegetarians and vegans bring home the broccoli, which I love it. Alrighty, so you discovered this. You've been booked up before. And then you originally found that when you offered the group people seem to have somewhat downgrade or the cheap, because they saw it as a cheaper option to work with you. But now it's become the only thing that will one of the only things that you do to work with folks. So how like how much have you learned from every iteration every evolution of your program? Why wait, we just was called right. How has that been for you to kind of really know what those boundaries are and how that has shifted and the things you've kept from your one on one to your group.

Very last question. And I just I just want to start for anybody listening who is kind of unsure because it is a big step for I, I realized I've learned the best by doing. And when I have the plan and the page and everything that looks so pretty, but then you're actually in the arena reminds me of that, quote Brene Brown quotes a lot from Theodore Roosevelt about, you know, the Man in the Arena, or the women in the arena. In this case, it's kind of like, when you're actually having a go, you learned like real life experience so much more than thinking, planning, wishing dreaming. So basically, in the very beginning, it was a membership, to be honest, I, I didn't have a program. And I liked the idea of monthly income, like, as a lot of us do, I suppose in in business, it's like, Oh, I'm gonna have this, you know, continued income, it for me. And for the clients I liked, I've always liked the idea of an open enrollment, not like a start to get a finish together, because I come from a weight loss background, like that just reminds me boot camp. And I never want people to think we're going to start go hard for however many weeks and then and like, so it was a membership. People could pay month to month. And as a highly sensitive person, what I found, the downside of that was is when you join a group that's already established, you can kind of feel like that, even if it's not the intention, even if you're very, very welcoming. There's them and then me. So people would kind of come in and would feel like there's there's the established group or you know, the cool kids, and then there's me, and they wouldn't necessarily feel as comfortable. So one of the reasons I transitioned into a program is because yeah, we all start together. But it's a fresh energy, it's a new container. There's nothing there pre recorded, there's nothing other people because like listening to other people's coaching, I know, a lot of coaches see that as a value add. But for me, I find it really unsafe, because I don't know what's going to be shared. And I don't know who's going to have the potential to listen to that. So another evolution of my program has been, each round is taught live. And it's available for the people who are in that cohort, or container or however you want to say, and then when that finishes all those recordings, and a lot of people like it's a lot of work for you for for me, Suzanne, because I teach live every round. Yes. And yes, and it, I feel the program becomes so much richer as a result. So I do a live round rather than ongoing membership. Everything is in that round is kept in that round. And then we start again afresh. And there's just something about the energy of that, like, and for me, I love how I've heard you say my case, safer spaces, like none of us can ever guarantee a safe space because we don't we're not living in someone else's body. We don't know what's safe for them. That's a projection. But to me, that feels like a safer space to be able to go that's this cohort. And then you know, and the other thing with it, when you asked about the transition, when something is ongoing, like a membership, there's no celebration, there's no graduation, there's no excitement, it's kind of like, oh, here I am, and then I've had enough, so I'm going to kind of like slink away. When we have a live round at the end, we can celebrate, we can integrate, we can harvest the seeds that we've planted in that season, as opposed to just being going on and on and on. So each round there is a little bit of like sadness when we come to the end. So it's I think the true bittersweet feeling excitement for what we have sowed, but sadness, it's like, oh, you know, so there's that marriage of both?

Oh, yeah, thank you for really speaking to that. That difference of energy that each there and some people work extremely well on a membership. And some people definitely are more suited to the cohort based sort of way of running a group as well. Because the way that I think of it, when it's a membership, at least for me, personally, when there's no specific start or end is literally like the gushing river, and you just need to take a moment to kind of, like, you know, now just kind of see like, where it's gonna take you. Or it's like skipping ropes or jump ropes. It's also what's called as well, is there like a jump rope going on? Like two of them a whole tube, you're holding it and you're like waiting for that moment to kind of go in? It's like, oh, but yes, I'm glad that you found that for you that current cohort based coaching is better for you in the sense that it takes your people through a live experience, their celebratory moments, and there is very intentional milestones that you guide them, guide them to. Yeah, to really get to that point where they can hold it so steep that they've served so brilliant, really Brilliant, thank you so much for sharing. So, you mentioned, and I love that you said this, when you talked about boundaries, you don't just set them, but you also uphold them now, to whichever degree you are comfortable with. How has that been upholding it? Oh,

oh, it's funny. It's part of me wants to go to that. Yeah, when you listen to someone, and they're like, it's just great, you just do this. And, you know, it's kind of like, that part of us like, that's a lie. So it's kind of like, it's very uncomfortable, at times, in the moment of having to uphold the boundary, but then afterwards, the relief you feel so there's a quote by Brene, brown, she says, Choose discomfort over resentment. So in the moment that you have the conversation where you're like, actually, if you remember back to the beginning, like this is what we agreed upon, or however, you have to circle it back and part of us dying inside. But then afterward, that free feeling of having spoken your truth of having held to the thing that you agreed upon, as opposed to when you just say yes, in the moment, or you just let it slide, and you think I just this once like just this once, I won't say anything. And then there's that resentment later on that that seed of resentment that then continue to build, because every time that you don't uphold the boundary, and then later on, you know, we can become like a pressure cooker and then explode, that's actually so much more damaging than to be clear in the first or second iteration. And even if you are going to let it slide, for example, like the perfect example that comes to mind, for a lot of businesses, I'm sure we can relate to is our cancellation policy for coaching. I still do some one to one work, not a lot. But I'm really clear now I have a 24 hour cancellation policy, no matter what, because I don't want to be the arbiter of which is an allowable reason and which isn't. So if people can't come, and it's less than 24 hours, I still turn up and tend to record them something. I do energy healing, I do cards, I do all sorts of stuff. Now I'm a bit of a jack of all trades that are still sent, like they have that hour, whether they're physically present or not. And to me, it feels so much more expansive and freeing, because then I don't have to be always like, oh, you know, the kid was sick, or somebody passed away, or, you know, all these sort of thing, or they've got a headache, like which one? Do I say no to? Like, which thing? And then where do I draw the line? So I like I used to have a one time thing like you, I'd say to them, okay, I have this 24 hour cancellation policy, I allow one time in our package together. And this is your one time. So from here on, I don't even have that now, it's a really hard and fast rule when you coach with me is 24 hours notice, or, you know, the session is forfeited. And if you still want something, I'll record something for you. And some people actually like that more funny. They're like, I just love it when you sing to me, I can't sing with anything. But you know, and then then I'm still fulfilling, they're still getting that time for me. Like I don't necessarily record for them for an hour, but they're still having there's still an energy exchange there. But I think having that boundary and you deciding do you give them one allowance? Or do you give them two allowances? And like another one too is? How long do they have the sessions for? So like, I used to do a six month coaching package of 26 sessions, so no 13 sessions one every second week. And then people would stop booking in or have the headache or get tired or like you know, and I'm not downplaying, like people do have things going on. But sometimes we have our own mental drama coming up. So we kind of avoiding the work. So the six month package would become nine or 12, or I'm going to admit it 18 months, but I'm still holding space, then I'm still responding to emails, I'm still doing Voxer, all this sort of thing. So it actually limits us as a provider to be able to bring on new clients because we're still having the energy of the current clients, and then we're not being in best service to them or ourselves. So I'm really clear now that this is a six month coaching package. Here is the times if you don't book the sessions in that they are forfeit. And the first few times that I had to uphold that. And even still, it doesn't actually happen. It's funny. When you start to uphold your own boundaries, you get less and less boundary checkers, I call them because you're firm on it. So yeah.

Oh, that's such an important message here. And actually, someone literally asked me a question and my cup of catch ups today about boundaries, literally something around this and I said something very similar. I said, You need to be the one to set and uphold the boundary because if you breach it yourself, you're training your clients that like it's actually okay to do that as well. So you basically need to Walk the walk. So they walk the talk or walk the walk.

The talk, I'm not sure. But the thing, the thing I want to say with that, too is sometimes in the beginning, when we're not fully booked, we can be like, Oh, give them an extra 15 minutes, or I'll give them an extra session like we want to be giving. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, sometimes where we're being generous, we're actually setting ourselves up for later on down the line when we aren't because we'll be setting an unconscious expectation. Like I used to have clients be like Suzanne used to always go 15 minutes over and she doesn't care about me anymore. It's like no Suzanne's fully booked now. So always I give the advice to people, if they if it resonates to act as if you're already fully booked, like what would fully booked you do? Because when we're trying to be generous and giving, sometimes we set up, you know, unconscious expectations that later on, then we have to have a boundary discussion about

that, oh, that that right there. The jeez, I'm just thinking back to all of my boss mistakes. When I didn't do this, because I went out when you were speaking earlier, I thought to myself, Wow, how many things have we let slide out of fear of causing any sort of conflict that they leave straight afterwards, you know, it's not coming from the best of places, if we make these quote unquote, generous acts, and they're actually out of fear that otherwise that they wouldn't be able to take it, you know, but I was thinking about this earlier, because it's just a message that my friend sent to me about how she was with her partner, then they broke up, and then the family didn't like the partner. And then they got back together with the partner, but it kept it a secret for a while. And then as then, now they're celebrating nearly six years together. And I thought to myself, I believe personally, that the strongest relationships are ones that have had their fair share of turbulence, and not the ones that have always had it smooth sailing. I think that turbulence, adversity really trains you to adapt and see whether it's worth it to stick it out. And if we apply that to our relationships with our clients, don't really want clients that will stick with us when it's not exactly the best of times, but they want to work on it with you. Because when that make it stronger, and not so fragile, that way, I love

that you say that. So in the current round of why wait, as we're recording this that I am running, I had the biggest tech snafu I have ever had. And one of my things is always being on time and always delivering what else say and anyway, it's a kind of very long story short, not only was I 15 minutes late to my own call, which had me dying inside because I'm always punctual. I'm on time. Yes, yeah. And then apparently halfway through so my computer totally kaput, and I ended up having to run it on my iPad because I'm resourceful. But halfway through my sound dropped out. And I didn't know and they didn't want to tell me because it was it got this good, this whole awkward thing. And anyway, when I got off, I was like, everyone's gonna ask me for a refund. Like they're all gonna be like she said, You suck. Because a brain goes there, our brain catastrophize errs. It was funny, I was like, I will rerecord this, it's totally fine. I've got a brand new computer. This is the first thing I've done on my new computer. It's, it's very pretty, it's got a red keyboard. Anyway, I digress. It's kind of like the I think people, our clients seeing us, you know, in our humanity, and the number of messages I got was like, our tech stuff happens or memes or gifts, or whatever. And I was like, these are my people. Like if I'm so afraid that if I'm late for once, or if there's a tech hitch or if I can't come, then I'm suddenly going to be cut down at the knees. That's not an ideal client. That's people pleasing energy. And I don't want to work with people that's I'm not in best service to my clients if I am pleasing them as opposed to coaching them. So whenever I get myself in a sticky situation where I'm like, Ah, do I want to say that like do I want to risk the relationship? I remind myself that's what they pay me for. Like it's always from love and it's always from service. But saying the difficult thing is why people hire a coach. If they want to be cheerleader they can get that from their friends and that's free.

Oh, okay. So many things. Bless your peeps for sending you gifts. The means like if I go to so happens because you and I both know we have a resident tech person and in our communication circle, and I'm always so grateful to them for telling me all these audios you know, you could turn on the transcript like this, like I did not know how to do how to turn on live captions on Zoom, apparently is the setting Already in zoom, if you have like the paid account, like the lowest, the lowest tier paid account, I was like, I did not notice in the accessibility options if anyone listening. You can do this directly in zoom. You don't need otter, not that's a shout out

to birdie we love you.

But yes, okay, so you've got your people Awesome, awesome. And I love how committed you are to do the things that you said you would write, but allowing your people to witness you and your humanity as well. And acknowledging your mistake, I think was the important part there as well. Because if we try to shy away, but like, oh, yeah, like that didn't happen, then it's almost like, it kind of rattles the respect a little bit when someone

Oh, 100. So I could go on a whole rant about this. One of my pet peeves in business is when you see someone going, let's have an integration week, that is unplanned. Like as in, you can sense they have some stuff going on. And they're gonna hide it by let's just give you an extra week to steep or whatever I would much prefer, like, you don't have to give me the ins and outs of your life i That's your private business. But if you don't have your stuff together, don't try and hide it by putting it back on to your clients. It's one of my real irritations. So like, I would rather people be upfront and say, like, I have some stuff going on, or whatever. Let's let's extend this. And I've had like, I've run this program, this is my fourth year, there have been things, things that have happened. And I've just found it best to like not overshare and not make my audience responsible for my things. Not at all. But to be like, This isn't going this is suboptimal. So this is what I'm going to do rather than like, I think you guys need some more time to integrate, no.

Yeah, being more, I've actually, I'm not surprised. But at the same time I am, every time when I'm really honest about how things are going. Like there have been a couple of times and svi, when some personal stuff was outside of health conditions. There was I remember, there's a very specific time in 2021, where I just I literally could not coach that day, I needed to be held, I couldn't hold anyone because I was so distraught over the things that were happening in relation to Asian hate crimes. And so I just felt so distraught, I felt like my, you know, people in my community, we're being attacked, and I take it very personally, especially when it's elders. It just hits so differently or children even. And it just broke my heart to pieces. And I would literally crying in bed all day. And I was like, Okay, I'm not in a position to hold anyone. And I felt terrible. I felt terrible at the thought of letting my clients down. And then I had to run it for my team, I ran it through two of my mentors, what do you think it's okay to cancel and all of them will, like, they will understand they will, your about sustainable visibility. And visibility isn't just about lead generation, it's about showing up for the people who are already in your circle as well. So lead the way here, tell them you're not okay, you can't be visible for them in the way that you normally are to them as their mentor, just tell them what's going on, and just make up for it later. Like, okay. And lo and behold, my favorite humans.

And I think that's a really great example of personal boundaries, as in, I'm not okay to lead the space in the way that is the standard that I expect of myself. And honoring your own boundary. I had a recent example, I ran a master class. And on day two, about three quarters away through the call, I got a splitting migraine. Like, I went off the call and was sick. And I had a client directly after that call who'd just been on the masterclass. And I was like, I've got options here. Like I could run it. But it was, it wouldn't have been great. Like, I know in myself that I could do better. So I got on the call because I was literally like, I had 10 minutes. And I just said, Look, I'm really not feeling well. We're going to need to reschedule and I didn't message her because the time and she's like, that's cool. So I rescheduled and then I went had a nap. Part of me was like, she's gonna be like, I want my money back. You suck, like always go to that, like always a refund in my mind. But when I woke up, I had the most beautiful email saying thank you for modeling self care for me. Like you weren't in a space to run this and you called it and you we reshot and I just that's the kind of thing I want to do in my life. And I think that's the thing when we're worried about upholding a boundary or demonstrating a boundary we're looking at the negative side of it. But how permissive is it for others to be like actually, I'm not okay today insane with your story like, I have this going on. It's in actually best service for us not to do this now. I think that the ripple effect of that is cannot be said and off.

Yes, I, that is really, really important. And like, like you said, the mind goes straight to, oh, they're gonna hate me now or the refunds are gonna come through, and all of those things and we don't realize how powerful it is just to really hold our ground from a place of truth, self care, and by extension caring for them as well. Because imagine, if you did coach them, while you whilst you had that splitting headache and migraine, that would have been a probably like a 60%. You know, of your power? If not, you know, that no, you don't have 100%, you know, you know, my troop presence, when I can access my thoughts and my insights for you that I have, you know, you know, for our session today, all of that stuff, and we need it. So we need to remember that all of us who are all of you who are listening right now, remember that your clients deserve the best of you. And they receive that when you give the best to yourself of like care and consideration,

that when you give the best of yourself, like I've had another recent example, and I think that's something with boundaries for anyone listening, they're always evolving. Like, just as soon as you think I got this, then you get another level. So a few people have asked me, because I've self published a book and their publishing book, do I mind editing it? Or do I mind having a proofread? And, you know, I run it through my filters. And I was like, Yeah, sure. That's, that's okay. I know that I work best with a deadline, like, when do you need my feedback by so I can, I can slot it in. And I ended up saying yes to three things. And then I had the tech drama, and I had all sorts of unexpected things come up. But when I actually sat down to do the activity, what I realized was, it was going to take longer than I thought. So I was like, in future, how would I do this differently? I was like, I can give you an hour. Like I can spend an hour on this. And also to getting really clear, I did do this? What kind of feedback do you want? Like, do you want the cheerleading lightly at its great kind of thing? Or do you want what I really think not, you know, harsh way I might, I've never might have goals to tear anyone down or judging or anything like that. But like sometimes if you if you've got something that you're really proud of like a manuscript, and you're really kind of what you're wanting is, it's good enough? Or other times, you're like, No, what I'm actually wanting is for you to go full Seuss that say and go what, you know, what do you really think? And the asking, not just assuming when somebody asks you for something, you know, what they're actually needing, like, at the moment, I'm redoing my entire website, and I gave that copy to a couple of people. And I'm like, I want what you really think I don't want Oh, that's lovely, because that is an inbuilt service and then taking the responses through your own filters of is this aligned or not? So you're not giving your power away, and people pleasing, but you're actually taking that feedback on board. So I had a discussion with you about this very thing.

Yes, yes, yes. Yes, for sure. Ah, so there are plenty of things that can ask you. And I love how both of us have taken it in terms in this conversation just to go back and forth with our own soapbox moments, as well as their own stories of learning. But I love what you said about the fact that yes, boundaries do evolve. And sometimes we just have to learn firsthand through that. Oh, okay, I screwed up there. Next time, that if I were to ask you to go back in time, and tell the zoos that just started her first coaching program, so anything that you do differently?

It's kind of it's a yes or no question. Because sometimes it's like, by making the mistake, that's how you learn. And it's not really a mistake, if you take the lesson from it. Like I think that's, you know, that's a whole definition of failing forward, when we take the lesson, then it becomes a win, whereas you know, but what I would do differently, is, I would be more clear in myself about the different offerings. So it's kind of like what, and I think this is gonna fly in the face of other business coaches advice, not not a business coach, but people will often be like, what's for the client? Like, you know, what's in it for them? But I think, you know, we need to lead with us first, how is this in service of us? Because otherwise, if we are running a program or something to be totally giving, and it's not in service of us, then it's a detriment thing. So like, when I went to a group, what was in it for me? Not so it's the me show, we're being selfish, but like, that's the anchor point to stick to when things get rocky or when boundary checking things happen or when you're unsure uncertainty because we all have this is the best idea, like, put show is it Mallanna you know, she's like, she's like, I can do this. I'm a Wayfinder whatever I saw, why did you pick me? Universal ocean, you know, so we all have that. But when we're really clear on your what's in it for us, what's our bigger mission with this? Then those peaks and troughs don't rattle us so much. So I would have been clearer in you know, what, why was I doing this for me. And I also would have been, I have the knowledge now that when you do set those boundaries, or uphold them, I should say, there will be times when you do lose people, and that's always going to hurt. But the people who love you and your best fit clients, they love you for that. Like, for example, I'm quite a sweaty fairy. And for years, I was always the rule follower. And I was always polite, and I was always, somebody said to me the other day, I wrote a post about it just yesterday, but what did they say? I can't remember. But when I just like me came out, the people who loved me loved me even more, and the other people kind of dropped away, but they weren't really in my inner circle anyway. And you know, they can, they're entitled to think and feel whatever they want. But it doesn't mean I need to take that on board to shape what it is that I'm doing.

Or of that don't need to be accountable for this. I completely agree with all of that. And the only thing I can add on, if I were to look back on all of the things I've done, and what I would do differently, it's to remember that when it comes to any group offer, I am also a part of the community. I'm not apart from it, like yes, I'm the one who guides it, I hold it, I facilitate it. But I matter as well, as a member of the group.

Oh, 100%, I was just it was funny. I was journaling recently, and doodle like draw. And it was kind of like before me and you just brought this up to me in the beginning. It was like I was holding an umbrella. And I was holding it out to the Umbrella was over everybody else but not so I'm getting wet. That's what I'm saying what's in it for you. Because when you hold the umbrella out, not only are you getting wet, but your arms getting sore, because you're covering everybody else, you're in your group, not so that you overshare or make you go to your coaches for your things. 100%. But you're a part of your community you're not like separate from so as you said. And that reminds me of all the tech things. Because in communities I've been in where a person's had to tech stuff, I would have been the person sending the gift in the meetings and you know, we wait for you, you're worth it. And that reassurance is powerful.

And thank you so much for that visual, I just thought this giant comedic looking umbrella. And all the little like flood of people underneath it. And there's you like with this giant hand, but like a tiny body of how I envisioned it for some reason, like,

that's exactly how my diagram looks. But I'm not the best drawer, but it was kind of like it's that it's like you, you include yourself in your community, give give the compassion that you pray for like you include yourself in that, as opposed to you know, because that I think is that is the martyr kind of energy like everybody else. Others first, myself last. And it's like I am part of this. I'm not separate from

wonderful, I think that is one of the best messages that we can round off this conversation as we start to close off today. So we've talked a lot about boundaries, not so much a how to, but kind of like how we've developed them over time. And I love this so much. And so for anyone who's listening right now to then who's like, Okay, I'm starting to transition, or maybe they've done a couple of group. It doesn't have to be coaching, but Group offers, let's just say group office, right? What advice would you give them to really, like almost do an audit of their current boundaries? And how to kind of get them like to prime their boundaries getting ready to adapt if needed. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I love he said audit because sometimes when things haven't gone how we hoped and facing a business, that's a lot of the time, we can be like crying in the corner and Netflix and chips like Yeah. So like the way I would audit it is to sit down and go, like, what did I do? Well, your brain is not going to want to go there. It's going to want to pick about all the things that you didn't do well, but yeah, what did I do? Well, like I did it go me celebrate, like I put myself in the arena. I risked, you know, falling on my face. So you know, that's the thing I've done well, your best gets to get better. So you know, I might not have had the best experience so far. But what I've learned from this, like what am I going to do differently next time is also such a powerful question like my program runs live now. And every time I do this audit at the end, what did I do? Well, what was sub optimal so this time will be the tech. What will I do differently next time and and things that you can put in place. So like having for me, I do have a few pre recorded things. So if tech goes sideways, I can put those in place. So they have something to work through while I'm sorting out my stuff behind the scenes, because we'd like to think, Oh, I'll never have a tech issue again. Yeah, like that's going to happen. So for anyone who's run a group, or law or SEO transitioning into, basically anytime in business, what did I do? Well, what was suboptimal? What would I do differently? Because that way, we can get out of stewing in beating ourselves up all the things we did wrong and go actually, here's the lesson that I can take forward.

I just really want to note on the language that you use, because as soon as you started saying, What did you do, like when you were about to say the wn, I was like, my negativity bias was went straight to the word wrong. But when you said, Well, I was my brain lit up, like a big question mark on it, like, well, and then

this is why it's so powerful. When you're a kid, did you play the game warmer and colder or hotter and colder, like somebody hid something, and you had to go and find it, and as you walk towards it, so if we go to what we did wrong, which is our natural inclination, I believe it's like playing a game of colder with the universe. It's like what I did wrong. Well, I didn't do this. I didn't do this colder, colder, colder, freezing. And then we're off in the corner, going, I don't want to do this again. And the universe is like, I ain't got you. But if you're like, This is what I did. Well, I call warmer, warmer, warmer, and then I feel inspired to want to keep going, as opposed to like, this is why I don't do

I immediately thought of my little sister, because when she had that moment, she goes this Why can't have nice things. Like the cat knocks over something. This is why I can't have nothing. But I love that. Yes, that game like I didn't think of it as a game. It's just more like, yeah, when you're watching someone trying to find something, and then you're just guiding them with a hot or

like that. We're used to close a game. Like we'd hide things. And then you know, the person have to go searching for it. And that's the advice you'd give them like you're warmer in warmer, freezing like my at the moment, I'm playing that with my son, he likes the like, Where's Wally type things? And I have an uncanny ability to find those things straightaway. I don't know. Just and so tell him tell him but when he's running his finger on the page, I'll be like warmer, warmer, colder, colder. So yeah.

I love I love hate on eBay. Yes. Again, the language you say? Not you don't say wrong at all. When that you say well sub optimal and what what would you do differently? And because in my mind, I you know how people say strengths and weaknesses. I long like let go of the word weakness, I say strengths and areas of improvement.

areas of improvement that feels expansive, or his weaknesses. Oh, yes. Look at that. Oh, that was deterministic, right? It's like, Oh, something I say a lot. So it's funny when I had the tech issues and the people who were there or like the thread what came up was hashtag sub optimal. I was like, yeah. So yeah, when things go wrong in my world, is that sub optimal?

I love that. Thank you for sharing that today. And yes, just a final note on the language. Oh, there's something that just escaped my head. Let me just quickly look for the transcript. Okay, so areas of improvement. Expensive. Nope, just totally brain parted. Damn. Okay. It happens. Anyhow. So I love that round off. So for those who have not, again, already been in your circle, where can we go to find you on the interwebs

Thank you. So my website is Suzanne kohlberg.com. And I'm mostly active on Facebook. So I'm, uh, I'm getting into Instagram. Mai-kee. Tsang has been kind of gently encouraging, like a year, so I'm getting there. But I'm mostly Facebook on my website. And yeah, I have my group program. Why wait, which is about you know, becoming boundaried, AF. And, yeah, so if you've got any questions or anything, please feel free to send me a message.

Yes, absolutely. And don't worry. I'll put all of the link in the show notes. So if they had like, how do I spell the name? Like, don't worry. But you have got us all in the shownotes. And yes, definitely, if you're going to check out Suzanne's Instagram, check out her rules, because I think she's just a natural on video. Anyhow, I digress. You're welcome. So I have two final questions for you before we wrap up. Are you ready? All right. Number one is what makes you a quiet rebel.

i It's funny, I listen to your podcast, I hear the question and like one day, I'll be on the podcast and she asked me that and then it's like, I'm like a deer in headlights like I don't. I think what comes to mind is in the persistence, so like often, you know when things don't go well. I think a lot of us will just will follow the crowd It all will go on to the next thing. And what makes me a rebel is like, no, no, this is going to work. My success is inevitable. Just because it didn't work today doesn't mean that you know, I'm not on the right track. So it's kind of like, I don't let you know, other people saying, oh, go do it this way. Or it has to be done like this. It's like, No, this just it hasn't been done like this yet, doesn't mean it can't be done.

I love that so much. It's like God, I have to prove myself, you just watch yourself. And see it's just watch it

happen. Don't believe me? Just watch.

I had a bit of singing here. Awesome. Thank you for sharing. Let me share acquirable. And my final question to you. One of my faves is what is one weird factor or fun story about you that no one else knows on the internet?

I love that question too. So I'm pretty for a shy person. I'm pretty open on the internet. But there is actually something I was only thinking about recently, when I was a kid, or a teenager, like close enough as a kid because I'm showing my age now. When I was a teenager, I was a competitive pistol shooter, like target shooting actually made the state team for Tasmania, that state I grew up in the tiny little one that gets left off the map at the bottom of Australia. So nobody knows about that on the internet. But where it gets deeper is I never actually particularly liked pistol shooting. My dad loved it. So I did it for him. And being the people pleaser that I was. And I remember, I was good. Like I made the state team, but I wasn't the best. And I went to a competition once and I was really excited because I shot a PB. I was like, oh my goodness, a personal best. Like I was over the moon. And my dad wasn't there at that match for whatever reason. And I remember coming home, and I was so excited. I was like I shot a PB. And he said to me, did you win? And anyway, I didn't. And I quit. I didn't I haven't shot since I in that moment. I was like, No, I'm done doing stuff that other people. So yeah, I quit. And like you could think, Oh, it's a sad story or whatever. But I think it was the beginning of me stopping doing things for everybody else and realizing I didn't actually enjoy this. And in the moment that I did enjoy it. It was just like, it was never enough. So I think so many of us if we do things for other people for the vanity stadel, the metric of the external validation. It was like and that's why I've always loved little athletics is in the concept. I'm not an athlete by any means. But like little athletics, you go each week and you do your long jump or your high jump or whatever. And then have you beat your personal best. It's not about tuition. And I think there's something to be said for all of us in that, that we can get into compare and despair, like I wasn't the best or I wasn't enough. Or we can be like I've done this for me. So yeah, I've never actually told anyone I did that before. But yes.

Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing what PB stands for because my brain immediately goes to peanut butter, like a jar of peanut butter. That when you said that, Oh, got it personal. Whenever I hear ya CBN J, you know, like peanut butter and jam. Actually, that's a very American thing. Like Brits don't really, I don't think we really have that. But but you know, we have a jam, they think jelly. But anyway, I digress. But yeah, thank you for sharing that story with us. And yes, it's, I think what as soon as you said that your dad said, Did you win? That immediately shot through my heart because I literally have a very similar memory, but not in sports. It was when I got my first GCSE, which is one of our academic qualifications when were 15, like 16. So I took my GCSEs early, a couple of them. And I got a B in stats, like in one of the, you know, branches of math. And I was so proud of myself, because stats is very hard for me. Yes, it's extremely hard. And then my dad, he read my result and looked at me and said, Can you retake it and get a not well done for getting a B? It was like, can you take it again? A and I was like, I was like, No, I will not I will not put myself

more disconcerning than when you're really excited about something. And their response is it's not enough or could you do better? And I think that's a real lesson in self concept. And it's self validation of like for me this was enough. That's like I'm not doing that again. Or realizing what are we actually doing a thing for like if I'm doing this to someone else's approval when it's never going to be enough? I'm out.

And I think that's a really important message to like, round off this whole conversation about you don't have to be the best but just your best. They have your own PB whether that's the job peanut butter. Oh yeah.

Yeah, your best gets to get better. It's a thing that I live by because sometimes we can just be like, I don't know how to do this. Yeah, well of course you don't you haven't done it you haven't run a group you haven't launched it you haven't dealt with all the stuff that's going to happen but, you know, it's there's lots of sub optimales But there's also lots of learning so yeah,

love this off. This conversation has been so amazing. So Suzanne, thank you so much for coming on to speak with us quiet rebels. I'm sure that there are plenty of those who are listening. Oh, thank goodness, I don't have to get this perfect. Just kind of like just kind of tinkering along as we go and hearing. Hopefully our stories from the trenches will hopefully inspire and inform those of you who are listening to really develop your own and when but Suzanne, thank you so much.

Thank you Miko. Thank you, everyone.