Welcome to the unconventional leadership podcast a weekly podcast where we dive into the latest leadership news tips and strategies. I'm your host Mike supple Jr, co founder and CEO of the talent magnet Institute, best selling author, speaker, and podcaster. Through the insightful interviews with experts from various industries and backgrounds, we unpack the skills, traits and mindsets crucial for effective leadership in today's world. From embracing failure to leading with empathy, we uncover the unconventional strategies shaping the future of leadership. Whether you're a seasoned leader seeking to stay ahead of the curve or aspiring to develop the skills and insights to succeed. The unconventional leadership podcast has something for you. Join us each week as we challenge the status quo, and explore what it means to be an unconventional leader.
Hello, everyone, thank you for joining us for this week's episode of the unconventional leadership podcast I have the distinct pleasure today to be with Melanie Brewer and who is passionate about workplace culture. With 20 years of business experience. And as a certified culture coach, Melanie helps organizations thrive. She is the president of influence network media, and people first talent and consulting solutions and the creator of Thrive, the Thrive model cards for culture, and the author of conscious culture, a game plan to build a great workplace, which can be found on Amazon. And we will talk about that throughout today's interview. So Melanie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Mike, I'm glad to be here.
Well, it is an honor to call you friend and to have you here in the studio. Because one of the questions Melanie that comes up often, in fact it most recently on talent magnets, internal feedback loop that we gained from people on our platform, culture development is listed as the number one thing of why people join our platform and what they're hoping to learn. So I want to spend some time here because we all hear the word culture, we all hear people talk about the word culture. But what we don't what I don't believe people know enough about is how to actually develop culture. And it's where you spend so much of your time and passion. So I'm looking forward to you sharing some great insights with our listeners today. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited. So if you could, can you share? Why does culture actually matter? In this in 2023? And beyond?
Yeah, so we are, you know, coming out of what we can, we can say coming out of right? What's been a challenging few years, you know, and even if it hasn't, if it isn't COVID related, there will be the next thing, right? What's the next challenge that we're going to have on our plate? We know that happens? And culture has always been a pop, pop word, right? Like, that's just one of the words that we hear or like, yeah, that we get it? You know, most people would say, Yeah, we, we know it matters, but we're not sure what to do with it, like, how do I do it? What tool would I use? Or when we're talking with companies? They'd say, Well, you're not here every day? How could you possibly help us with our culture? What's coming out of COVID? Is that this fact, and you can see all the surveys that support this, but basically, employees want more, right? They want to be treated like humans, they want to bring their whole self to work. What does that look like? Employers want to have retention, right? They want to make sure that we still are having this war for talent, we know that that's happening. And culture is the reason why people are retained, right? They either are repelled by your culture, or they're attracted by it. And so for a business perspective, no matter the size, I think that ultimately is the reason why culture is a is a big thing that cannot be ignored.
So Melanie, one of the ways that we've always defined culture at the talent magnet Institute is culture is really the experiences and the own internal experiences, as well as the collective experiences of what it feels like to work in your environment, day over day over day, right? So how I take in all of these experiences, how I'm treated, what micro aggressions might exist, what experiences may exist, whether positive or negative, which means people as you just referenced are bringing their whole self. So the way that one is leading may not fit everyone. But culture is all about these micro experiences and how we're taking in the environment and how positive or negative that feels to me as the individual and as the collective. How what else would you add to the definition and helping our listeners understand what culture is because in order to develop it, I need to understand what it actually is.
The word experience is absolutely critical in that so you know, for years, companies have focused on the external experience, right the brand and the marketing and what their customers see. And for us, it's the flip of that, right? It's the internal experience, it's happening within your organization, we want employees to be so happy to work there, and so engaged in so in performing so well, they're willing to run through walls for you, they stay longer, they make your customers, right, those who are happy, make others happy. That's the kind of that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. But that's what we're looking for. So it is it's the internal experience, employee experience is sometimes what we call it. And, you know, I use a lot of definitions, I don't have any one set definition. I often talk about leading with heart. And what does that mean, right? How do you lead with heart in a, in a society today, keeping your HR hat on a little bit, right, you have to do that, but be consistent, yet also be human and be authentic. So we talk a lot about that as well. And so many times, and it's interesting for it to come back to this and this is that human moment again, but so many times when we're talking about culture, communication deficits will come up, right? How are we talking to each other? Are we doing it with trust, and respect? And you know, all those things, there's just certain keys that are always coming up as an element of how do we drive it in a better way? And I do think Communication and Culture go hand in hand as well.
And how are you finding individual managers, supervisors, directors and leaders? Being more intentional? Are there ways I could be more intentional today about my culture and my workplace? What are you seeing as some of the things people are doing? And what aren't they doing that they shouldn't be doing?
We're seeing some of the same things that they've done in the past. So it might be something as simple as you know, performance reviews, okay, that's great, right. And it's a way to get to a feedback, hopefully, we're hoping that they're doing things like learning from their mistakes, celebrating their people. There's some very traditional type, things like that, that we see happening. And we want to continue, where I think we can be a little bit different and more intentional around it, is a combination of getting everyone on the same page. So oftentimes, you'll hear, you'll hear people say, I'm just really good with people, I trust my gut, I have a good feeling about that person. And you know, the sad thing is, we weren't all born in the same house raised in the same city, right, we don't have the exact same background. And so there's no way to really be on the same page with someone and to be able to completely trust your gut that you know, that person if you haven't defined what it means to be successful in your environment. So when we take it back, and with the game that we play, so cards were culture, we play this game with leadership teams, and other in a bigger business owners, we play with an actual team, because culture is felt at the team level. So that's very important to remember. But when we play this, the first round is let's define what our vision and values are. And we call those the keys of success in our example, but just by getting everyone on the same page with that is really critical, because we've sat at tables before where they're having a full on argument about the definition of integrity. Now, that's a loaded loaded argument, right? If you're gonna argue about integrity, and what came out of it was this conversation about, it's ultimately, one of the gentlemen at the table was always late to things. And so the leader was calling him out and kept saying, you know, I questioned your integrity or disrespectful, you're never on time. And it was a kind of a heated discussion. And when we stopped the conversation and said, well, actually, what we're hearing is that Bob has a time management issue. But that's not exactly an integrity issue. And so even sometimes just defining for them the difference, because in this leaders mind, it was an integrity moment. And in Bob's mind, it wasn't right. So sometimes it's a matter of those types of things, and getting everyone on the same page. So if you were to say, to be successful in our organization, right, we pay attention to details, we're on time we deliver on time we like whatever it is, that might be more service based, that's important. And then your team knows what to do to follow suit. So it's basically digging in and setting those expectations, letting people know what you stand for. And then just holding to that, and that seems like it'd be common sense or easy to do. But there's lots of organizations that forget to do that first.
And with that, do find that there are individuals that may not understand that all of those individual interactions are what make up their culture. So like when people hear culture to Dominie, find that it's undefinable. Do they go Oh, I know what culture means. I just want to learn how to do things personally and as a team to make it better. Like where are people in that headspace? When we talk about culture?
They for sure they think it's that there's like a one hit wonder too, right? Or there's a magic pill that you're going to take or I'm going to look behind the magic curtain and I'm going to find culture and it is a collaboration of a lot of moving parts. And so I think that's where When I think about all the different areas that you want to impact culture in, I drive back to the Thrive model, which is this model that we created, and we give it away for free. So I'd love for people to check it out if they get a moment, but they can find that on my website, thrive within b.com. The Thrive model has the six key areas. And I think that is really important. So there's not any one, but the six key areas that if you focus on them, and the model is a tree, if you can picture that, right, you start in the roots, and you build this foundation, and you build up into the branches. And so it's simplistic and thought, but there's so many different elements, there's actually like 72, things that we suggest you could be doing to really create a great culture, but start with the basics, move up into the branches, which will be a little more complex. And what I've found kind of in my 20 plus years of experience is that those are the kinds of things that are going to move the dial forward, and we use the terminology create a best place to work. And if that's not terminology that resonates or isn't in your city, it's creating a great culture for you.
And by defined by the employees, not by just the individual, correct?
Absolutely, absolutely. It was a the model itself was built upon years of HR experience and inputs, and then actually working through the Cincinnati business courier is best place to work, practice multiple years for a couple different companies. And so it was this just combination of all those thoughts, and what did we learn? And how can we do better and the surveys that we participated in? We put it all into this model.
That's very cool. Very cool. Yeah. And do you find that others have models that they're starting with? Or still to this day? There's a lot of companies that statistically haven't even begun the journey.
Yeah, they haven't. There's a lot of just again, that gut reaction. So when we surveyed, like 200, leaders, and what came back was, it was less than 10%. Were actively planning for culture. So we call that the elite 10%. What we want is people to treat their culture and people plan like they would their financials, their marketing plan, their strategy, right, those numbers are 95% and higher that they have those types of plans. Yet, when it comes to people, we're much more inclined to just trust our gut. And even when we worded the question, it was on a scale of one to five, how important are people in culture to driving your bottom line? That's very, it wasn't fluff and feels good. But it was like, Are they driving your bottom line? Mice? Give me the data like that, that matters? It's an important question. We found out some scale of one to five, it was a 4.8. Like really high like it so matters, they definitely believe people and culture drive their bottom line. And yet again, and this was a little cart before horse I mentioned, okay, well, then how many of you are planning for it? And the results came back less than 10%. So as smart business people, that's the rub, right? We're saying it's so important for our business, and yet, we're not going to plan for it, we're gonna wing it. And it's like, well, your hope is not a strategy, right? Like we need to actually create an actual plan for it.
Yeah. And I'm sure there are people listening to this episode that say, That's exactly why I tuned in that. We talk about it, but we don't have the actions to back it up. And what you just heard Melanie share that that's very normal, unfortunately, that everybody's talking about it. Right? Everybody's talking about it. But very few are taking the time to make it intentional, build a plan, create a model, build a baseline, because you got to start somewhere. Right? So creating a baseline understanding your baseline metrics, and you're, you're never too small or too big, to begin this journey. Right? So if you say, you know, I'm listening, and I've got a side hustle that I've got two employees, or I run a coffee shop, or I lead a manufacturing company, or I'm running a publicly traded business or a nonprofit, culture matters. You just heard the metrics that Melanie just shared that 4.8 4.9 out of five, say it's the highest priority, we understand that culture drives my bottom line, but yet 10% actually have a plan to do anything about it. So the people who had a plan, is it something that they've done for years, and it's just a part of kind of their ethos and the way that they lead their organization? Or do you know, is it something that triggered for them? And like, how they actually decided that I'm gonna make this a priority?
That's a great question, Mike. I don't know that I actually know why we focused on the ones that didn't have a plan, because we knew we could help them. So I don't know of the ones that do and the feedback that we get, it tends to just be they're the ones that are very people centric. They they recognize that example, turnover numbers kill your company, right? If from a cost of turnover, the cost of not having an engaged workforce, and how engagement scores impact performance, which impacts profit, like there's some people that are just really in tune with the people element and how you drive those numbers. Because there's been years where people have said, well It's hard to get metrics around culture. No. Yeah, it could be. But there are elements of it, right? Like these things I'm mentioning. So engagement scores, turnover scores. And I think those are the things that those who are really in tune with it, they get, you know, they recognize that there are some things you could manage. And then exponentially what we would say those numbers. Those are hard numbers, but the soft stuff are actually really hard to gauge as well. So you know, what number would you put on happy, healthy, excelling it customer service, managing risk better, being innovative, like all the things that come out of this healthy culture? That can't be hard to equate a number two, I have a story real quick, it's kind of a show me the number story. And it always cracks me up. I was working for small businesses before we won our Best Place to Work award. And we were supposed to go make power packs at the Freestore Foodbank have our own affair told you the story. So we're supposed to make it that's a huge thing here in Cincinnati, right? They make the power packs for kids that are hungry on the weekends, I don't get to eat. And I was having kind of this argument if you will, with my COO at the time. And he said we can't go do that he's in our team has to be working, right? We're billable hours, we got to make gotta make money. Show me the number that if we take our team and go do this, we're gonna make our quarterly numbers. And I'm like, I can't I can't show you a number. And you just kind of kept saying it was like a Jerry Maguire moment. He kept saying show me the number. Show me the number. And so I kind of explained him, I said, it's going to be worse. If we don't go do this. Our team is so excited. They're invested. It's intrinsic. We're giving back to the community. We're helping hungry kids. So we go to the event we come back. It was amazing. Right? Team was there. I mean, not only was a good for marketing, and you know, took pictures and PR and all that stuff. It was just good for the team was team building that felt good. And on the way home, he called me and he was quiet, which he he's never quite. He said you were right. I was like, Well, wait, say that again. You said you were right. He's like, this was amazing. Like the team loved it. It was so much fun. And he said, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I'm like, Yeah. and I of course responded with, show me the number. You show me the number. And he was like, no, he's like, I get it. There's other things. Now again, this team goes on to win our Best Place to Work award and make good profits for the year and have a great, you know, we did all the things kind of afterwards. But it can be hard to quantify. But what I'm just saying is that I'm encouraging people don't get stuck on that, you know, this is something that in a Eisenhower's matrix, it will never be on your urgent and important. But it will always be important. It just might not feel urgent, right? So you've got to stop and do the planning the pre planning ahead of time.
Yeah, yeah. And it's that being intentional. There are ways I mean, there are research that's actually tried to define the the numbers behind the impact of positive and fit culture, to negative and toxic culture, and the words that come up in those environments and how things get shared. But as you're saying, some of this is intrinsic or felt, from the employees, when they get asked, you know, does your employer care about you? Do you feel aligned to the mission vision? Are the values lived out in the organization? Is this a place that actively invests in you, I was sitting with an organization it's been almost a decade ago. And this was kind of the the one of the things for me, that's really stood out when I was talking to this leadership team, and then included the managers and supervisors, the organization, who we were talking about, one of the ways to define your culture is what do you say on the weekends when someone asks, Do you enjoy the work? You do? Right? And we were talking about where those questions get asked. So when you're getting your hair cut, when you're hanging out at a sports or extracurricular activity with your children or grandchildren, and somebody says, hey, what do you do again? And, you know, sometimes you can see it on their face visually, that people are lifted up, people are kind of down and sulking in their own little world, and hey, how are things going? What's going on? In some cases, you hear from people when you ask about that about their job, right? And I was sharing, you know, personally, it's been kind of a mission of mine, when people asked me, Hey, what do you do? I love what I do. I'm passionate about what I do. I make it a mission field for me to share about the great things and the team I get to work with and the partners I get to partner with and the things that we get to do and how we get to serve people. And I was sharing how many people when they ask that question, will say back to me, like, Gosh, I wish I enjoyed my work as much as you do. Right. And one of the individuals in the audience at this company I was talking to who she raised her hand she got super emotional, and she shared about the team she was on. How when she recently was asked this question how she shared that because of this team, I am where I am. They've helped me through the difficult things in my life. They've helped me navigate some really bad decisions I've made and helped me get through it. And she literally said, she got very teary eyed. So the whole room could feel the emotion just coming on, it's, and she was like, I would run through brick walls for this team, I'll never leave, you know, money can't hire me away from this organization. Because I owe, in some cases based on some of the decisions that she made, and the way the organization handled it, I kind of owe my life to this team. And I hope that I can bring every day the amount of energy back to this team, that it's brought to me. And I was sharing, I was brought in to kind of lead a team exercise. And still to this day, over a decade later, I'm still talking about this particular individual. And that team, that culture, that environment, they created to create this kind of safety around, not just one person, this was one who was willing to speak up, right, everybody, or the majority of people that they employ, and those are the types of things to those listening that how are you expressing yourself about your job? When people ask you about the work you do? The organization, you serve the values of that company? What's your response? And then I always tell people, if you're in the lead seat, and you happen to be in the C suite, it may not it's not going to be about what you think it's about what everyone else thinks, right? So how do I find out the stories that my employees are sharing? Are they proud to be a part of this team? Do they love the work they do? Do they feel supported? Do they feel that we're helping them amplify their best work, creating that kind of trusted environment? For sure, you know, speaks to someone and provide some a bit of an example. Melanie, so you mentioned leading with heart at the very beginning of the conversation, I hear the phrase leading with heart and go, you know, again, I go personally, yes, that's exactly right. But if I'm listening, I'm like, I don't know if we're supposed to lead with heart in the workplace because of how I've been taught through the all the rules and regulations of HR and the way that the work force shows up today for people. So talk to me a little bit as an audience member about what is leading with heart mean? How do you encourage it? Why does it matter?
So it doesn't mean cast aside, fairness, and consistency, right, that that stuff still applies. And I know, for HR leaders, that's a big piece, right? You set a precedent and you want to, but what it does mean is and someone said it to me this way, one time, you know, imagine that that challenging employee is your child. And whatever they're struggling with, whatever, name it drug addiction, there's something going on in their life, that whether or not they're performing or not showing up or not showing up, you know, there's something going on in that person's life. And it's like, Now granted, it's hard to imagine showing every person the same compassion and love, you might show your child or your mom or your spouse or whatever it is, right. But that idea that, you know, to me, it's about being human, that changed the dynamic for me, and maybe it's because I had kids and I got soft, I don't know what it is. But it's but that idea that, you know, if I could treat everyone the way I would want, or how would I want them to treat my child? Right? If, if I'm entrusting them into someone else's workplace? What respect and what you know, compassion, what I want them to show my child and I just feel like if we could all kind of be in touch with that a little bit better, our workplaces would be so much more. It is it's human compassion, its authenticity, and thinking about others. And, you know, I know as business leaders, we have to think about the bottom line, and are we making money or I'm not gonna be able to make payroll, that stuff is out there, and it's not gonna go away. But even the comment you made Mike, like the things that that employee, the story, you told that employee went through some serious stuff. Whoever helped her responded in a very human way, potentially saving her life. So we might put numbers on things. Okay, how much number would you have? What number would you put on saving someone's life? And that's a hell of a lot more than a little bit of turnover. Right. So I think those are just the things we need to think about. And again, I'm not saying treat people differently. I'm saying treat everyone that way, treat everyone that like you would, if you were thinking of that as your as your child. Sometimes I see that surfaced in in businesses and it'll be something like, No, we got to let somebody go, we're gonna fire somebody, okay. If you were firing your child or someone's firing, what would you want to happen? We'd want it to be respectful. You'd want to maybe give them some reasoning or some coaching on the way out. Maybe you'd want to give them think about right and again, not everyone can do this either, but maybe it is providing them with that severance agreement. help them financially along the way, or the outplacement services so they can get a resume coach or even I mean, there's like little things that you could do as someone's departing, that just makes the process easier. And always, always, always, I would say, lead with respect. So that's an easy and free consulting advice. You know, we can be respectful even when the situation is tense or hard. And that will get us a long way as well.
When you were mentioning earlier, the best places to work, one of the things that we talk about, and one of our modules we call it ambassadors, is the way you show up, not just for the people who are with you, but for the people who may be departing or may have already departed, the way you show up for them, is what they're going to remember most. Right. So as individuals exit, whether that's for retirement, whether that's for sickness, whether that's for you know, they weren't a good fit for the job, you had to actually let them go or fire them, the experience they have with you and how much you care for their ultimate outcome is going to be how you're remembered. Right, which then the ripple effect of that is, they're also going to be the ones who become your amplifier about your culture. Because when people are interviewing, they go to their network, they say, Who do I know, that used to work in XYZ company and they go and ask, right, and how you are defined is going to be how they experience their exit. So that's one of the reasons why caring for individuals, even as they exit your organization, matters a lot.
I sometimes say, you know, people will come to your company, based on what you've advertised, right? Your vision and values and may come for your values and mission. But they're going to stay based on how you treat them, and how you make them feel right. So you may be able to attract them because you say one thing, but if you don't live up to it, and your actions aren't quite literally speaking louder than your words. They won't stay that you know. And that's tends to be the trend, people don't stay working for bad leaders. And that's the Marcus Buckingham mark is making it so he said, Right? People don't leave companies, they leave bad managers. And some of that's true as well. So.
So Melanie, one of the questions I want to build on that, what if I want to lead from my heart? But I'm not surrounded by others? Who lead with heart? How do I? How do I fight that tension? How do I be different? How do I influence up in a way that's not going to be damaging to me or my career.
Part of me wants to say that if you're surrounded by people that don't think the same way you are, you may not be in the right place. But I also recognize like that we can lead up we can help people see different things, just like in the story I was telling, right where he said you can teach an old you can teach an old dog new tricks. He he wanted to change, he knew there was another way to kind of do things. So kind of tying into this. Mike, I get the question a lot. What if my leader is not on board with all this stuff with my leaders on board of culture, which is kind of what you're saying, right? Like, I want to do it, but maybe the rest of my team doesn't want to they're not on board? That's the most common question I get when I speak is, what if I've led the horse to water, but I can't make him drink? Okay, so the idea is, okay, well, then we, we want to show them all the things they can do give them tools they've never had before, because I don't know that any existed before. So things like playing the game cards for culture, pulling out the Thrive model and saying, Hey, here's a plan. We don't have one. Let's just use this as a heat map. You know, what can we do? What can we not do? Not being afraid to ask for help. Right? So reaching out to people like talent magnet Institute to say, I could do some development, our team needs this, I need help. You've got to have those vulnerable moments to say,
I have some ideas. Let's talk let's ask for help. If there's still pushback, again, you have to really kind of stop and think like, Hey, I've tried, I've offered some of these things up. And you ultimately decide, am I still happy working here? Am I not? You know, I had to make that decision myself in corporate America. And ultimately, it led to me starting my own business, right? Because I thought, this really matters to me. And I could see it mattering to everyone else. And in a kind of a pay it forward moment. Best book I ever read, pay it forward by Katherine Ryan Hyde. In that kind of era, I have this big mantra of making the world a better place one workplace at a time. And it's like a pay it forward. idea, right? If we can keep doing that and keep helping, we help others. They have better days, right? They go home happier, they treat their family better, they don't kick the dog, whatever it is, and we can make the world a little happier and better by doing those kinds of things. So try I guess it's my
same round, big circle story, Mike for, I would just say try your best, give them give them the tools. And, you know, see what happens from there
into those listening. This is part of the culture game that Melanie has put together. This is part of the resources that she shared with you go to thrive with mb.com, we'll provide that in the show notes. Like there are tools, you know, our leadership discussion cards, there's micro ways to begin your journey to create and set a better, more engaging environment, and create the kind of culture that you may be desiring that you may not be getting where you are. But you have the ability to show up different to bring tools and resources that help you bring in value into the conversation with confidence, right? So whether it's cards for culture, whether it's the Thrive model, whether it's things from this podcast, that you're like, you know, I'm gonna go have a discussion about this, I want to encourage my team to listen to this, you know, from this timestamp to this timestamp. And let's have a dialogue about it, right. So just create the conversation. Some of you are going we're doing all these things, but we'd love the fact that we're able to, you know, again, I think the environment of conversation, starters, and exercise, you know, the cards for culture exercise of like, let's check ourselves, let's make sure we're all lying let's, let's debate and have healthy discourse to help us move further faster, right. So so often, you know, you might do a survey, and then you don't do anything with the data. And that's not the intention, the intention is that that data informs and allows you to continue to have further dialogue. So just be encouraged that today's your day, tomorrow's a new opportunity for you to show up in the way that we're describing that you can show up and we're supportive of that. Melanie, one of the things that you have in the I'd love this in your work conscious culture. For those that are watching on video conscious culture, you can see it on our YouTube channel. And you can go out to Amazon to pick this up. And you I love the sentence and your final thoughts of culture is not rocket science. It's investing in people because good people are the heart of a great organization. Right? No organization, no strategy ever got accomplished without humans. And it's not rocket science. So Melanie, I would that a couple of closing questions. One, how would you define unconventional leadership?
Unconventional leadership is having the courage to do it in a way that might be a little bit different. Do it differently. Do it in a way that is still the things we talked about. Right, fair. And yet think outside the box? How can I do it? How about you in a way that benefits everyone? How can I, you know, we've done it this way, I hate that phrase, we've done it this way, forever, we're not going to change that we can't think that way. We've got to be able to embrace, doing it differently. Have a mentor, be a mentor, have a coach be a coach, whatever it takes to get to a new level.
Yeah, that's outstanding. And what is one resource that you have been influenced by the most than this particular topic that you'd like to share with our audience?
Again, I go back to I think my whole reason why I started this company and even created the game and the idea of moving things forward. I mentioned it earlier, but like that book, pay it forward, Katherine Ryan, hi, that's a resource. And it, it changed my perspective. You know, it really was this moment during COVID, where I was reading with my kids. And I was trying to think through, you know, how could I make culture? Sticky? Right? Make it pay it forward in an organization and what can I do, and it's not just buy coffee for the person in line behind you at Starbucks, which is what we've kind of watered down at the Pay It Forward Movement to be, but to do profound things for other people in a way that changes their life. So we haven't seen read the book or seen the movie, I would encourage you to do so.
Awesome. Well, Melanie, thank you so much for being with us today in the studio.
Thank you for having me. This has been wonderful, my favorite topic with one of my favorite people. Thank you, Mike,
and we look forward to being with all of you next week, we hope you had some great takeaways. Mellie. And I do want to hear from you. So please share your thoughts. What is one thing that you took away from this conversation? What's one question that you have that we didn't cover today that you hope to hear more about? So please connect with us. We're both very accessible via LinkedIn and on our own website platforms. So thank you, everyone. We'll see you and talk to you next week. Thank you for listening to the unconventional leadership podcast. We hope you gain valuable insights and inspiration from today's episode. We invite you to join us on this journey of exploration and discovery as We continue to uncover the unconventional approaches and strategies that are shaping the future of leadership. Stay tuned for our next episode. Don't forget to subscribe rate and review the unconventional leadership podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, being an unconventional leader means embracing new ideas and strategies to drive growth and innovation. So keep pushing the boundaries and challenge the status quo. And we'll see you next time on the unconventional leadership podcast.
