Walking Alongside Marginalized Communities

    2:37PM Mar 10, 2025

    Speakers:

    Dr. Susana Branko

    Keywords:

    Participatory action research

    social justice

    marginalized communities

    liberation psychology

    harm reduction

    police violence

    community accompaniment

    radical geography

    freedom as a place

    collective care

    interdisciplinary collaboration

    human rights

    state violence

    community documentation

    self-care.

    Music.

    Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

    Well, welcome to the thoughtful counselor. I am very excited to be with Dr Amy Ritter Bush, Associate Professor of Social Welfare at the UCLA School of Public Affairs. Dr Ritter Bush is a social justice advocate in communities throughout the globe, specifically Uganda and Colombia. I believe your experiences and global work in participatory action research are of value to Counselor Educators, researchers and practicing counselors. Thank you so much for joining us today.

    Thank you so much for the invitation. It's really wonderful to share space.

    Excellent. So I'm going to get started and ask if you could please share a bit about your journey to walking alongside and collaborating with marginalized communities globally. In other words, tell us about your why for doing the work you do.

    Yeah. Thank you so much. As a colonized person, and I guess you know there are different ways of understanding that. But someone who has been impacted by different forces of colonization, different sort of patterns and movements associated with colonial legacies, I guess I've always been drawn to movement work or to sort of learning with and from communities that have also experienced depression. And I think part of my understanding, I guess, of walking alongside communities, has been part of my own pathway of liberation.

    Wow, so much of that resonates, and it also makes me think of specific to Latin American communities, the concepts of liberation, psychology, liberation theory and finding that kind of inner ability and resistance for collective liberation, that's what that reminded me of. Okay, so in counselor education and in clinical counseling practice, our code of ethics and many of our guiding practice competencies endorse social justice and advocacy actions to include participatory action research as a methodology. Can you explain, for those who may be unfamiliar with with par what it is and how it looks in action

    in terms of participatory action research. I like to cite the global South, and especially the Colombian foundations of Par. Orlando Fauci, who was a sociologist, sort of the godfather of sociology, and par In Colombia, thought about participatory action research as a life philosophy, not so much as a method, but even just the way that he wrote about this approach to doing research is by making sort of the the P and the A, or in Spanish, the I and the a hyphenated, meaning that research is always accompanied by action. Like you can't, you can't really separate the two. So in Spanish, it would be investigacion, ACCION, and the way, which is research slash action. And so false Borda would, in all of his writings, would hyphenate those two words. And so, you know his idea, Orlando falls Borda and. I was a sociologist who worked alongside movements, sort of poor people's movements, campesinos, agrarian reform, accompanied different sort of leftist militant movements that were moving between spaces of sort of dissidents and university spaces, or kind of like an intellectual accompaniment of different militant groups in the 60s and 70s. And so he very much wrote about participatory action research as sort of a way of bridging community spaces of action and justice seeking with intellectual movements like, how do we reduce the space between universities and movements? And so he was constantly trying to understand that, but in a general sense, I think, like grounded in terms of, how do we do this, in daily embracing kind of a life philosophy of any any research endeavor that I or taken as an example, right? Has some sort of social justice objective, right? So it's not necessarily according to the typical or traditional scientific method of we're starting with a research question that emerges from a lit review and from sort of a rigorous process of understanding what we know and what we don't know about a research question, which is all important, but I guess before that as an entry point, participatory research, participatory action research, understands that entry point as Okay, what do these particular communities, movement actors or folks who have been oppressed, what do they dream for? What are their justice seeking dreams? And how can this research accompany or help us get there, you know? And so if we have that kind of question that always accompanies, maybe a broader intellectual or sort of more traditional scientific question that would kind of sum up par,

    Wow, I did not know, probably about 80% of what you just shared that's fascinating, and it's really, really almost opposite what we learn about research in in our training, for the most part, in terms of starting with this research question that is derived from the researchers. This is really turning that on its head, and the question is being derived from the community. So that makes a lot of sense, that then the whole product, if that's even the right word to call it, would be about how it best supports the community, because it's coming from them, from their voices, not from people outside the community, exactly.

    And I think also this is responding to sort of what was known in the 80s and 90s as the crisis of representation in the human sciences across disciplines. So not even just like in anthropology or sociology or other disciplines where we think about a lot about qualitative methods, there was this sort of reckoning with traditional scientific inquiry, saying, like, actually, there are really problematic colonial legacies that underpin science. And you know, researchers from the global north going to the global south and taking or even, as some folks say in the literature, stealing knowledge from communities. And so this idea of par emerges as kind of a response to saying, well, there are other ways of doing research. And then even thinking about, Well, how about when, sort of community and university? When those two spheres, when those lines are blurred, right? When actually folks from marginalized or oppressed communities undertake research or lead research, or, you know, and so then there's all of those debates also in Par.

    This is pretty fascinating, because I'm thinking about the history of the counseling profession. We are one of the newer mental health helping professions in like the global mental health sphere of helpers. And around the late 80s, early 90s, is when something called the multicultural competencies emerged. And that was in response. To those voices not being considered and how we do counselor practice and research. So it makes sense that it would fit with the timing of the crisis that you you talked about in in the way that our profession grew. It also makes me think too of I don't know where this term derived from the ivory tower of academia, and I'm not even really sure what that means outside of that oftentimes people in those positions are not in community or in touch with the people who the outcome of research would impact. So it's kind of like bridging that gap, or lowering or equalizing is probably a better way to say it that connection.

    Yes, absolutely. And I think that a lot of these reckonings in each discipline, really, within the history of the sciences, I think, has had this moment of, sort of, or, I guess the each profession has their different historical moments for self reflection and thinking like, how can we be more social justice centered? Or, how can we, you know, and I think maybe some professions have have done that in more meaningful ways than others. I know that geography, which is the discipline that I was sort of trained in, originally, as an academic, sort of doing my PhD and and and so on. I feel like geography is still in that moment of reckoning, of looking at sort of it's the centering of whiteness, the centering of heteronormativity, the centering of and then also the reckonings of all the exclusions, right, colonial legacies, and how do we really center social justice, you know, in really, really challenging moments in the world, you know that where we're having all of these reconfigurations and universities and, Yeah, definitely, I think that it's these conversations are always so welcome and important for us to think about.

    I appreciate that, especially in the midst of political reconfigurations. How can we still hold these values to our professions and what we believe in? I know we're going to get to the piece about geography in a little bit, so we'll hold that for a second, but I do want to ask about your community accompaniment and par outcomes. So specifically, I'm interested to know what are some of the accompaniments or par outcomes that bring you the most joy or satisfaction that you can share with us?

    Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that question just to an opportunity to kind of like reflect and think back. I have worked closely with different communities affected by state violence in Colombia and in Uganda. In Colombia, originally, I started this work as a doctoral student, you know, I was doing. It was in sort of a traditional configuration of, you know, I had a fellowship, but was also on a personal journey of very much wanting to connect to Colombia and learn about Colombia. But, you know, I started doing movement work as a doctoral student, and then just kind of witnessing the forms of violence that the communities I was working with, the forms of police violence, forms of police brutality, and also just in general, kind of like state abandonment of historically marginalized communities, so particularly communities that depend on street spaces for their livelihood, so on housed communities, sex working communities, street vendors. You know the street as kind of a space where these different survival activities cohere, and so just accompanying and being part of these spaces I was witnessing in the daily forms of violence. And so as a researcher and and sort of a young researcher, you know, finishing a degree, thinking about what all this means, I came to the work of par as being like we need to actually do something. Um. Against these forms of violence, it's not enough to just document and so I spend a lot of time working with these communities to document forms of violence, right? That as like a first baseline, so using different qualitative methods to document testimonies of police violence, but then working with interdisciplinary teams to figure out different ways to act and support these communities. So some of that was human rights work. So working with human rights lawyers to kind of take those testimonies and prepare, you know, prepare cases to be presented to the Inter American courts, which is sort of like the regional mechanism of accountability in the Americas, but then also efforts that were maybe thinking more at the individual scale. So some of like that macro work, looking to hold states accountable. But then also, how can we take care of our bodies in the daily as we're waiting for these very slow legal processes to happen? So like doing harm reduction work with students at that time, I was a professor in a university in Colombia, and so I worked closely with the Psychology Department and other departments where student interns would kind of devise different ways of supporting these communities. And that work cohered, we founded a human rights organization with former students and community members of these communities that I mentioned previously, and so we were doing this kind of interdisciplinary work of, you know, how do we take care of each other in the daily but Then also, how can we devise justice seeking and accountability practices to hold the Colombian government accountable, and in this case, thinking specifically about the police state, right? So, like, When documenting, so like one of those, sort of one crucial moment was a violent police I'm thinking in Spanish opera TiVo, but like a police intervention of in 2016 of a drug consumption zone, not just the drug consumption zone, but a zone that was kind of stigmatized as being a zone of danger, a zone that needed to be removed erased. And so the police, the government, sort of organized this, really violent military intervention that came in with, like, helicopters and tanks and folks to actually displace unhoused communities, which happened at 3am in the morning, and then, like, pushed unhoused communities into a canal in the center of Bogota, and basically like these folks were held for a number of months in this humanitarian crisis situation. And so what we did at that moment was sort of accompany this moment of injustice document the violence is that could be held accountable, because there were a lot of things that, just since they weren't documented, that kind of just were erased from history. You know, right? Anyways, this kind of work of accompanying these, these harrowing forms of violence that are enacted many times by state actors, and finding ways to support so through harm reduction, through, you know, attempting to raise visibility around actual humanitarian crises so that we could get different government entities to respond send an ambulance for, you know, folks who have, you know, sort of ongoing wounds, and the legal work that I mentioned, and so that is kind of an example, which is the work that I was doing in Uganda as well. So that work connected us to different activist networks globally, and then we were invited to kind of support similar efforts in Uganda. But what I would say is. Some of these efforts, you know, I feel like we can be the most effective in doing this justice seeking work when we're, you know, when we feel like the social justice objectives are connected to our own liberation. And I guess in all of these spaces, that's the way that I've felt like building friendships with folks to advance these types of initiatives, and then, you know, finding ways to support one another pushing through the difficult moments of persecution, because we know that as we raise visibility around issues of injustice, many times, like folks begin to kind of get it begins to get sparse, you know, folks get scared. Or folks say, you know, I really can't take this on. Or, you know, it's, it's a work where the relationships that we build to move forward and do this work holds us together. Yeah, I guess, for me, that those were the moments of joy like in this work is like, remember, remembering the beautiful friendships and honoring those beautiful friendships, and honoring movement teachers, like social leaders in these movements who I learned so much from, like holding on to those relationships, which I think is what helped us push through when, when things get tough, you know?

    Yeah, thank you for describing that and sharing those examples. Being what, what comes to mind is the collective nature, that it's absolutely not an individualistic event, and that, based on how you describe it. It sounds like it's a long commitment, like these things aren't happening in an academic year. It sounds like years worth of consistent commitment struggles, including possibly being in harm. Lots of different lots of different groups are involved, not just sociologists or psychologists or legal, but community members also, obviously, but everybody needs to be acting towards a unified goal, it sounds like for extended period of time.

    Yeah, and I feel like the interdisciplinary focus is so key that for these, you know, dealing with these, with these very complex issues in society, we need folks from all angles, you know, like contributing their talents and finding ways to support the folks who are the most impacted and affected by these waves of violence and so definitely, the role of psychologists, the role of lawyers, the role of sociologists, geographers, folks documenting. The role of folks doing the arts driven work, which is like, you know, can help spread messages or messaging, you know, it's like, yeah, and, and folks coming together in the long term, like this is, it is the long fight, which is something important to remember, which I Think I've always really appreciated working with with colleagues in social work and in psychology and in all of the related disciplines like helping professions, is to center self care and collective care in these endeavors, because it means that the long fight means that we can't. We have to resist against burnout, because it's almost like the systems that we want to topple hope that we reach burnout, you know, correct, yeah, like we like, think, thinking, you know, thinking with each other about how we can do this work in meaningful ways, and while still remaining, you know, and still being able to contribute over time, I think, is the real is a real challenge for us.

    It is a challenge, and then it speaks to this piece about the the relationships and the level of trust we need to have with our collaborators to be able to then be able to continue the work and push through that kind of burnout stage or fatigue that comes alongside this work you had mentioned a couple of times. Reduction, and I know that that has a certain meaning in the clinical counseling world. Can you share what you meant by that in in the context you were speaking of

    Yes, and I definitely, because I don't want to maybe confuse terms that I am definitely not trained in a technical sense around harm reduction. But the way, for example, in this organization badasses, which is the organization that we worked within for several years, the team of psychologists created a harm reduction strategy for women who struggled with different substance use issues in street spaces and so the harm reduction was really like thinking about how to support street connected communities that also have substance use challenges. So meaning you know how to and specifically around sort of like preventing broader forms of violence, so being able to so communities having different strategies to protect themselves from police violence when in some sort of situation of of consumption in the streets. I mean, you know there, there hasn't really been a successful model in Bogota of sort of like controlled substance use rooms, as there are in different country contexts or things like that. But it was sort of like a grassroots initiative to sort of create safe spaces where less harm is happening in the meantime, until there are more structural solutions, right? Yeah, and a lot of times since substance use is connected to sort of heightened forms of criminalization from the police, what are the ways that communities can protect themselves from that? And then there were sort of more classic initiatives of harm reduction that the team of psychologists and some students that were doing this outreach work were also connected with the med school, but also passing out like harm reduction kits. So in this in street spaces. So in this case, one of the substances that is often used in the context of Colombia, for example, in unhoused communities, is pasuco, which is sort of a similar to crap consumption, but chemically, not the same, but similar in the sense that there's, there is a pipe that is used, and there's different and so harm reduction around, like reducing, sort of, you know, dryness or burns around the mouth that can create higher risk of infections, or these kinds of things that are kind of like, very like, basic level, kind of Survival level harm reduction. But then, with one colleague, Catalina Correa, who is a psychology professor in Universidad de los Andes in Bogota, we were also thinking about harm reduction in terms of the violence that women so intimate partner violence, but other forms of violence that women in sort of the southern regions of Bogota, for example, were experiencing in sort of marginalized or marginal housing settlements. And so we had a project that was visiting homes of, you know, marginalized, mostly like, like woman, sort of head of household configuration, so trying to support women who were also, who would also come to the center of the city, because they were involved in some sort of street connected economy, but lived to the very, very south of the city. Anyways, we would do visits like home visits to think about ways of. Of of reducing harm in these scenarios of intimate partner violence, and also just, you know, issues of food security and so there was, kind of like a broader gender, gendered lens to harm reduction that we were trying to think of with a group of women who also struggled with substance use, like how to support their their like family lives and like their lives in the places where they were living, and not just the outreach in the streets, when it's like the sort of, the only focus on survival in the streets, versus, like attempting to think about harm reduction. I with a focus on living, you know, like the daily living and or like attempt, you know, the daily care work, you know. So, yeah, I think I answered your question very well, and you did. I'm not an expert in this field at all, but I think the way that we were that was what we were attempting to think about as,

    yeah, no. Those, those examples really make sense and remind me of programs in the United States, for example, clean needle programs, or things of that nature that really are working differently with communities and meeting them where they're at, yeah, and those are all, of course, I'm extra interested to hear about all these different pockets of support that were happening in a place I care about very much as well, which makes me want to ask you started by saying you wanted to Learn more about Columbia, and I'm curious to know, how did that journey, if you feel comfortable to share, help you to learn more about who you are as a person.

    Yes, absolutely. So I always dreamed of connecting with communities, connecting with anyone really, in Colombia. I think that that was just, you know, I think of kind of the trajectory of becoming a researcher and and working at a university and studying at a university, it was all just like a way of of getting back to Columbia and like connecting with my people. And when I mentioned at the beginning that I I consider myself to be a colonized person that is in the context of international adoption. And so I was separated from my family for many years, and separated from Colombia in general. And so when I returned as a researcher and an adult, and someone who had lots of energy to try to figure out how I could do something positive in in Colombia, I guess I just, you know, I gravitated towards understanding. Centers of or like concentrations of where kind of violence was happening against marginalized women, where violence and oppression were happening and enacted by like you know, more powerful actors in society, because I feel like that's kind of a mirror for my own life history, and so in any way I wanted to just connect and understand and learn and figure out, like, is there any way that Someone with my positionality can can help and support and so I guess, like working with communities that are that are extremely criminalized, and so probably, like the most criminalized in Colombian society, or some of the most sort of pockets of criminalization in urban areas anyways, was a way for me to kind of connect to my own pathway of liberation. You know, learning and struggling along with these people,

    it makes so much sense, and it very much resonates. So I appreciate you sharing that about what you learned, what you're still learning on the journey. I'm going to switch a little bit because you had mentioned a topic that I know is not particularly common in counselor education and counselors speak. So it's regarding a recent. Keynote you facilitated and workshop for European academics and scholars on radical geography. Can you explain what radical geography is?

    Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are some key concepts in radical geography. So if we think, in a first just trying to understand what is geography as a discipline, geography attempts to understand the relationship between people and places. So if you can look at some of this earlier work that I was doing, I was spending a lot of time in street spaces, right? So, like, the space of the street, I was trying to understand the relationship between the street and then how folks are criminalized in that space by the state. So like, understanding the ways that different politics or systems of violence cohere or affect particular spaces or connected to particular spaces. So like there is a scholar, Ruth Wilson Gilmore, who talks about abolition geography as a form of radical geography, and she talks about her definition of, or maybe an entry point for understanding Radical geography is understanding freedom as a place. So she uses like this idea of how can freedom be connected to a particular place? And I think that there are many examples of this one way that one maybe concrete example of radical geography, for example, some of the the movements that I work with, I work very closely in Colombia with the trans community network and there and they have founded a dance troupe that of trans women and non binary folks who are affected by police violence and who are often criminalized. They have created this, this like street level dance troupe that responds to police violence and protests and so I just like, want to try to, like, use this as an example of, like, how, how we can imagine. So these are, like folks who have been who have experienced harrowing forms of police violence and brutality in the streets of COVID who then are figuring out embodied strategies to respond to the police, right, non violent strategies. So like the dance and like the you you know, movement in a street space, in a space of protest, how that can then encounter police power that is like one example, for example. So trying, how can we ground this really abstract idea of freedom as a place, which is what Ruthie Gilmore and other folks talk about, I would say that that's one example. You know, in there, this is a practice of liberation, a practice of of trans women standing, literally like confronting anti riot police and staying and saying, like, we're here to stay, and these streets are for us, you know, to show our power and to and to to walk with pride in our identities, not to be brutalized, right, like that. That kind of like connection to freedom in a place. But I would also say that like, you know, what are ways of I think, like two, maybe grounded proxies of radical geography is, you know, naming and reframing forms of violence, right and then situating them, or enacting rebellion or situating proxies of liberation in a particular place so like we can imagine. So. Many examples of this in but maybe if we, if we take the example of border violence right, and that we're sort of witnessing and experiencing in heightened forms, the border geography is a very it is. It's a space that is just like doused in violence and stories of suffering and social death and literal erasure of and policing of communities, if we think of so, what would it look like to enact practices of freedom in a space that is so violent, like a border space, right? And there are communities that are doing this right, like communities who are, you know, doing radical mural projects on the Mexican side of the border wall, or, who are, you know, doing dance or poetry circles, healing circles In resistance to these geographies of violence and but really like the term radical. So if you think of radical geography, like, if we understand radical in the way that Angela Davis kind of defined this term, is grasping at the roots, which I think is a way of connecting to our own struggles, to our to sort of the essence of an injustice and to place it, or situate it like, where do I need to go to grasp at the roots of this injustice and do something, you know, and it might be multi sited like, this might be an issue that is impacted across the world, and it might be the work of bringing these geographies of justice together in one place, but then finding ways for these conversations and dialogs to happen globally and so, yeah, I don't know if I was very if I was concrete enough, probably not. But, like, just, you know, naming, reframing, these practices of violence so like, because many times forms of violence and and stigmatization happen discursively, right? The ways that entire communities are erased. You know, identities are erased by renaming, reframing, and so one way of reclaiming a discourse that was once violent is renaming or saying, This is what we're going to call it, the dance troupe that I was talking about. They call themselves Tolo pongo, which is basically like the Spanish speaking Colombian version of a cab. And what they say is, we don't want to reproduce, kind of like the heteronormative violent discourse, of all, cops are bastards, meaning we're basically like blaming women for having given birth to violent cops. This is kind of the discourse of this dance troupe, right? They say. We're actually just gonna say, told us los policia son una gonare, which is like another word. So this in Colombia, this word is often used as kind of, you know, it's a gonorrhea is a, is a, an STI, but it's also used to describe many things that are bad in Colombian society. It's kind of like and so this, this group kind of renamed a cab to say we're an abolitionist group we believe in, you know, toppling police power in Colombia. But we're not going to reproduce like a global North framing that also blames women. We want to be trans feminist, and we want to if we're going to call out the violence of police power, let's use other quote, unquote insults that aren't reproducing other logics of violence. So I guess. That's your example of like, the renaming or reclaiming type of thing. No,

    that's very helpful in in the counseling, clinical counseling world, naming and reframing our counseling techniques and we often will work with people who've been impacted by community violence, global violence, or even the separation that has impacted you and I and we can use those techniques to help people re narrate or reclaim a story that was taken from them or put upon them that's not accurate because it's from a dominant place. So these all they fit in, but they're used in different ways based on how you're describing it. Well, we are close to my last question. I wanted to be sure to talk with you about so you and I met because of our shared background as Colombian international adoptees, and I'm really happy we did. The work we're doing is still unfolding. Your description of your previous work has a lot of similarities to the work that we're doing, not surprisingly, and it will take a great deal of time to impact broad scale change. You mentioned this earlier, but I want to end with this. Professional counselors and helpers are often encouraged for us to be mindful of burnout or compassion fatigue, like you suggested earlier, and it shares so many parallels to activism and advocacy work. So how have you been able to remain well and care for yourself throughout this time?

    Yeah, that's such an important question, and I think this has to be at the core of the ways that we build relationships for justice is looking out for one another, looking out for ourselves, grounding proxies of collective care. So meaning like, Okay, we are doing work as a collective. What does it mean to take care of each other? What does everyone need to be to feel taken care of in this space, and then I think, like at the individual scale, for me, I mean, I definitely think that that all of us doing movement work experience different sort of ups and downs in our journey and struggle. I think for me, one important thing has been asking for support and finding support from the folks around me who love me and care for me, and recognizing when I can't do something alone, you know, like reaching out and finding ways to make ends meet, just in terms of daily life struggles, in terms of the ways of building family and supporting family and recognizing when, when I need to to sort of reach out to my broader community and say, I need help, I really I can't do this alone. And kind of recognizing those limits is really important, because I think when we're so passionate and our own path is of liberation are connected to these struggles. It's really hard to place limits, you know, because it feels like that urgency of injustice that is just like burning in front of us every day. All that urgency can lead us to burn out, I think. And it definitely in, you know, in the culmination of previous work, the organization that I mentioned to you, we had to decide to close our doors and kind of move into different movements of and different cycles of movement work, and I think that that at the time was really painful, but also really wise in understanding like we we constantly need to Be ready to kind of readjust and reconfigure and, yeah, I think, I think that that's really important. And, and just in terms of like, I try to make any of the spaces like, I guess, like, in more recent years, I've tried to be really radical about who I surround myself with, you know, like and sort of the themes and the approaches to daily life, to teaching, to researching, to like. Good to figuring out who to struggle with is, like, that's also a way of caring for myself. Is using pedagogies of care in the classroom, where we're from the beginning, trying to figure out how to take care of one another, even in a classroom setting, the same thing, I guess, like, you know, the more that we can create these spaces of care in our everyday, in all our spaces, right? We're going to like be able to cultivate and and push forward.

    Yes, oh, I like that so much. Creating spaces of care and our everyday life, and being intentional about who we surround ourselves with, and being willing to ask for help, which means we need to know when we need help, and that's hard to do in the face of well, if you call it urgency, but we have to do it so that we can be here for a long time, because these fights aren't short term, they're very long battles that we were all committed to. So I really appreciate hearing that, and I'm so glad we had a chance to talk about this in this way, I feel like I've gotten to know you a bit more than I have in our working time together. So thank you for spending time with us.

    Thank you for this invitation, and thanks everyone. I appreciate it. Thanks

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