We believe in functional mental wellness, a holistic approach to mental health. We know that there's hope for those of us who have experienced trauma, even profound trauma and that's why we created the universe is your therapist podcast we believe whether you call it God, the universe, source, unity or love that there is something much greater than us that conspires for our good, we envision a world of healing and connection and we teach you simple but powerful practices that integrate your mind, body and spirit so that you can come home to your highest self and your truest identity. You are not broken, you are loved and you can heal. My name is Amy Hoyt, and together with my sister Lena, we will take you on a journey of healing and self discovery. Today's guest is Julie from meanie McBride. She is actually someone I've been following for quite a while on social media. And I was intrigued with her research and her work because she looks at pornography use and not just with men, but also with women. She also looks at what makes pornography use problematic. And that's what we want to talk to her about today. Is pornography use and addiction which we've heard or not, and if not, why is it a problem? And what can you do about it? So Julie comes from a vast amount of research. She has a background in family studies, as well as a PhD and a master's in education. And her dissertation actually focused on women's pornography use and sex education. She's also a mom of six and incredible woman, I highly recommend that you follow all things, Julie, and let's get to meet Julie. Julie, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Amy, I'm excited to be here with you.
So one of the things that we talk about in the trauma work that we do is how trauma can so often lead to addiction. And that's one of the numbing mechanisms. I mean, it there's many numbing mechanisms, but people use all sorts of things to kind of not have to deal with some of the memories and the hard feelings. And one of my questions to you is if you could help us understand, is pornography use? Can it be considered an addiction? Because I've I've read different things about that and and how it Where do you how do you feel about that? Or what is problematic if it's not an addiction? What is problematic about pornography use?
That's a great question to start with. And that's where the literature really begins on this topic. Internationally. pornography, compulsions have been recognized, however, in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual manual. Pornography is not an addiction, there's no sexual addictions recognized there. And so I think that's a really important distinction that's been made in the psychological community. Because how we view problematic pornography use also determines how we treat it. And for a really long time, pornography that was viewed problematic was treated as an addiction. And by many people, it's still recognize or viewed as an addiction, a lot of people self perceive their porn used to be addictive. However, it doesn't actually carry the same characteristics as a true addiction does. And so that's one of the main things that we've really identified and focused on at the stedfast Institute, is that pornography use is not an addiction, there might be some extreme cases where it might manifest as a true addiction. But in general, it's not an addiction is a problematic behavior. But that is usually that is usually triggered by some kind of early viewing of pornography. That, in its own way is traumatic for the individual that has early exposure. And so it's really interesting how the problematic habits develop over time because of the initial trauma, and so they can a lot of times feel or look like an addiction. They just don't carry the exact qualities that an addiction has.
That's really interesting. I, I have studied pornography use loosely for I don't know, 15 years, I started teaching a class called Sex and and salvation at a university I was teaching at and that was my first exposure to the literature on you know, pornography, and I wanted to know what do different religious groups Think about pornography and other, you know, issues around sexuality. And so I've always followed it fairly. I mean, I'm this is not my expertise, but I'm so intrigued, and I've seen how, you know, some experts say it's addictive, and some say it's not. So I think what, what I hear you saying is that it can be problematic and that we don't really have to define it as an addiction, we can simply say it's problematic, and we can still work to resolve the problematic behavior. Is that accurate or?
Yeah, right. So in the in the scientific community, now there's this term that's been coined PPU problematic pornography use or self precede problematic pornography. So that's kind of become the term for those that see it as an addiction, but more the clinical or research term that's used. And so it is being recognized in that respect. However, it was a really interesting piece that you connected about religion, right. And that goes into a whole other territory, when it comes to problematic pornography use is that based on people's spiritual or religious beliefs, the self perceived severity of their pornography use also changes and also for their partner. And as we talked about trauma, it's not just the initial trauma that might trigger these habitual problematic relationships with pornography, you also go into the territory of the betrayal trauma piece with a partner that's being affected by the user's compulsive use. And they're experiencing their own level of trauma from the feelings of betrayal that might be heightened for someone that comes from a religious or a community where pornography is very much talked about under the umbrella of adultery, or more, more severe types of, you know, sexual abuse umbrellas within a relationship. And so what we talk about a lot is how careful you have to be with how you conceptualize pornography use both as the user and as the partner. Because it's not adultery. It's not this sexual abuse that might be painted out to be in some communities, we understand where they're coming from, and what they're trying to display by saying that, but it's not that and by by demonizing it to be this extent of adultery or whatever. It's actually making the problem so much worse for the users and the partners. And so that's part of what we do to defuse some of those strongly held ideas, where you can say, hey, yeah, you know, pornography, use does go against my values. But it's not on the same level as these other things. And I'm not addicted like someone is to something like methamphetamine or heroin, where it actually creates a true chemical dependency. That's not what's happening. What we have coined through our institute, and through our research, is something called reliance, we say that people will develop a reliance on pornography. And so it really does distinguishes the difference between addiction or even just habit, because we've heard, we've heard it on both spectrums, you know, a habit which makes it sound like something you can just easily break with persistence and addiction, which is something that, you know, is oftentimes such a difficult thing to overcome, but not everyone's able to do it. And we see it as a reliance, I guess, you've developed this reliance on this experience, for connection and so forth. It's really difficult to overcome, but you can do it with specific incorrect therapeutic tools and guidance. So we're right there in the middle. That makes sense.
It does. And I love that I love the language of reliance. Because what I think of when I think of reliance is some of the things I rely on when I don't want to feel my hard feelings, or the feelings that are really uncomfortable or not even convenient. And at the core of trauma is this perception of yourself in the world that is changed because of an ongoing or an event. But what that leads to is a lot of avoidance. And so Reliance still captures that. And I think that's that's what really interests me is any behavior that we engage in as humans. That takes us away from really moving through some of the tough things we need to move through in order to be whole again, and show up in a way that does align with our values. So I love the term reliance. I think that's great. You mentioned betrayal trauma. And I would love to talk more about this. How, how do you see that show up in your work with pornography? Obviously, with spouses or partners, but can you talk about that a little bit and and what you recommend in terms of, if you do have a partner or a spouse who comes forward and says, you know, I'm, I'm struggling with this, and I don't want to, obviously in in relationships where that's agreed upon and acceptable. That's not what we're talking about, we're talking about when it feels more like a betrayal, is that correct?
Exactly. And I like what you said, and some relationships where this is acceptable behavior is something that's practiced together, that's a totally different scenario, rather than in a relationship where, you know, a couple has these strongly held beliefs that this is not okay. In their relationship. They've discussed it in the past, and it's viewed in certain contexts. You know, as far as those that don't view it as problematic in any way, shape, or form and collectively use it. They're still micro bits of the betrayal trauma that occurred that people are not always cognizant about. So I think that's important to identify and respect. But at the same time, we don't seek out working with individuals in that arena, we're not trying to change people who don't want to be changed. Our job is to educate to do research, but really work with those that, like you said, identify it as an issue. And as far as those that do identify it as an issue, you know, you get people on totally different spectrums. Like anything else in life, you have people that might come from these very strong, devoted sense of religiosity that view it as the same thing as adultery. And for them, it could even be a deal breaker in those scenarios. And that's where it's really sad, because this couple has built a relationship together and it becomes such a deep wound, that they feel it's not repairable if they discover their partner's use. And this becomes really dangerous for the partner and also for the user because the individual that's using might want to stop have no desire to be using, but we have developed these Reliance's over a history of being exposed in childhood, whatever trauma they might have endured, and not having healthy attachments at home, in past relationships, and so on. And they genuinely want to stop, they can't figure out how to do that on their own. And they will fear so much losing their relationship that they won't confront the issue, or seek help. And that's really sad. And so, you know, typically, those people don't come to us because they're not ready to face it, it could destroy the relationship. And so part of what we like to do, too, is educate couples on how to conceptualize pornography use and talk to each other, if they think it's an issue, so that it doesn't dismantle a marriage or a partnership. Before seeking help, right? Our greatest messages, anyone can overcome this, they truly, truly can. And it shouldn't have to be a deal breaker. You know, and, and I'm always all for people having autonomy over what the boundary is in a relationship. But as far as pornography is concerned, we also teach us that it's not always a choice for someone to use porn, right? If you were exposed in childhood, and developed this reliance, you weren't even at the age of consent, right? And so I would say to partners, take a look at that, you know, if that does come up, if your partner even started viewing in childhood, that's probably why their reliance runs so deep they were exposed to these situations that were slightly traumatic at the time and developed this kind of chemical Reliance right on this sexualized experience. For really like feeling good, relieving certain unwanted feelings, such as boredom, or stress, like you talked about experiential avoidance. And it wasn't a choice. You weren't at the age of consent. And so you have to have a little mercy on your partner in that situation and say, they're not choosing to turn away from me they're not choosing to view porn, even though they know I think it's wrong. They're really struggling with something that's not entirely in their control, to heal without the proper resources. You know, and I don't want to compare porn to cancer, but I would just say it's, it's like any other illness any other medical condition you have going on, there's just sometimes it's not just plain willpower, you know, sometimes you need the professional intervention to help you resolve the issue. You know, and I'm sure you've worked with enough individuals with trauma, to know that there's certain skills, they have to learn DBT skills, and so on. And that's not something we just wake up and know, we need to get professional help for. And so I would just empower people in those situations to know you can overcome this. It just takes the right resources and consistency to do so.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. For our listeners, DBT is Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, and it is one type of therapy. What other interventions do you find are really helpful for people who are relying on pornography and don't want to
write so we use a research tested method called AC T Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And that has shown to be the most effective as of now, some DBT has been used in the past. In our specific program, we incorporate AC T DBT, as well as emotionally focused therapy approaches to identifying triggers emotions, and so on, and also doing the work of defusing some of the strongly held beliefs that might actually be inhibiting your recovery from porn use. And so it's a pretty comprehensive system that we use. But it is rooted in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, rather than the old models that were rooted in the 12 step program that was for addiction. And that's where that's where, like I mentioned earlier, that how we talk about pornography and conceptualize the severity of what it actually is, determines the treatment models. And so when we're treating porn as an addiction, we automatically think, Oh, 12 steps will work. And lots of churches use 12 steps, a lot of porn recovery centers use 12 steps, because they conceptualize porn as an addiction to clinical addiction, and it's not. And if you treat it that way, it's dangerous for a number of reasons. One being that you only have so many windows for someone willing to recover, to trust professionals, you start off with the wrong method, and they're gonna get defeated, you're gonna take too much of their energy reserves, that they're entrusting to you to help them with this process. And these are people's lives, you know, we have to be very careful about how we talk about what someone's actually experiencing, so that we don't deplete those reserves of energy, and hope that people have to overcome a given issue. And so that's why we take really seriously the method that's being used to, to relieve some of the unwanted porn use.
I think that's great. And I think that's something we don't really talk a lot or enough about in mental health that I mean, you know, we joke in our family, you know, if you've, if you find a therapist that you don't like, just go find another one. Because, you know, there's good therapists, there's bad therapists. I mean, we're, we're very pro therapy. If we can't, if we don't have a skill set, and we need to acquire one, you know, we will do that for mental health. But I don't ever remember having a conversation with anyone that when at what point are you so frustrated that you don't go try and find the right fit for help with whatever mental or emotional issues? So I love that you are bringing that up? I think that's so important. Tell me, how, how do you define problematic porn behavior clinically? What is that definition?
So this is a really tricky one, there's really no consensus in the literature at all. You have some researchers that you know, think once a week is problematic, some that thing once a month is problematic, some that big every day is problematic. But I think in general, you know, for us, our guideline that we use is how you know, it's problematic isn't really so much the number of times you view it. It's, it's more about whether you are wanting to stop and you're not able to do so. So that's really the key.
I love that. It's so simple. Do you want to stop? And if you can't, okay, it's probably problematic. Yeah, exactly. I love that. Okay. So tell me, what if I am a spouse while I am a spouse but let's say my husband came to me and said, This is what's going on. I've been viewing porn. I repeat, I don't want to I know that that's not part of our agreement in the marriage, what would be a way that I could respond so that I am not driving him further into shame, which could prohibit some recovery? What would be like your best case scenario for a partner's response?
Okay, yeah, this is a complicated question really depends on the dynamics. But I'll try to simplify as much as I can, you know, if if, if your partner comes to you, and they confess this, I think one, it's important to not overreact. But it's not always, it's not always feasible, right. The partner has emotions, too. And at the same time, it's incredibly important to honor your own emotions about what's going on. I think the key here is to realize that neither partner is responsible for each other's recovery, they're only responsible for working towards trust in the relationship, right. And so I think you can kind of just take a pause and say, Whoa, you know, you're obviously in a position where you're upset because you want to stop, you're having difficulty stopping. I can't be your parent about this, I can't be your therapist about this. But I do want to work towards trust in the relationship, it's okay as the partner to say, Hey, I'm completely devastated by this, I'm affected by A, B, and C and communicating that. And now I'm going to just really need to take the time to heal, and decide how I can be healthy moving forward. And I think at that point, the couple can, can say, Yeah, we want to keep working towards this relationship, but we both need to take the time to work through this therapeutically. So we can get to a healthy place and start rebuilding trust with that being the goal, and really acknowledging the trust isn't there. And both both partners are going to really have to realize that honesty is going to need to be a priority in that situation, being honest and vulnerable with the feelings, but also being honest and vulnerable with boundaries. You know, while you're recovering from this porn issue, I don't want to know every time you slip up, I need to focus on my own recovery. Or, hey, I want to know, every time you slip up, that's going to help me to feel safe. So it's really going to be this negotiation of how you can kind of stop the bleeding, work on the healing and then work on trust.
I like that. And I like that it's nuanced, you know, depending on the couple and the dynamics, and really the ethical and the commitment framework of each couple, which I think is really, you take something very complex and helps to not simplify it too much. So I appreciate that. Thank you. I'm curious, Julie, do you have people who come to your program who are younger or parents who are seeking help for their teens? Is that something that you deal with at the steadfast Institute? Or is that kind of outside of your purview?
Yes. So we do have parents that will come to us about their teens and want them to use the program. And that's totally okay. I will also have teams that are protests, but we have a very strict policy that you have to have parental consent. And so that's that's pretty hard, hard line for us. And not because we don't deeply believe a baby should be able to get the help, but because we really respect the parent child relationship, and then being fully informed and building that trust amongst themselves.
I think that's great. I appreciate that. One of the things I've been wondering as we've been talking is, how, how prevalent is female porn use? I know stereotypically, people have thought that it is mainly a problem among males. And what I've read is that is that's changing, or it has it always was changed, and we just didn't realize it. So can you speak to that a little
bit? Yes. So this is my, my, the root of my expertise here. I defended my dissertation on women's pornography is sex education. And there's been different studies that have come out. Some have come out and said that roughly 30% of the female population uses porn. My studies said that 60% used pornography. However, it wasn't a nationally representative sample and further investigation needs to be done. But that was a pretty large number, and it's one of the most recent studies so it's definitely changing. There's definitely evidence to show that women are used it at very high rates as well. And it is it is increasing. Because porn, porn companies are targeting women more aggressively than they have in the past. In the past, there's been this focus on male engagement, but they've realized that there's this larger demographic that they haven't tapped into, and they want to. And then there's also some, there's also some porn companies that are geared specifically towards women now. And they kind of view this more feminist approach to pornography. And they think if we don't objectify the women in the porn, that it's not going to have negative impacts like some of the mainstream porn has in the past. And of course, everything needs to be researched thoroughly. But my hunch is that it's not just about that there's more to the story.
That's interesting. Yeah. And I can see where that would come out of like the work that Gail Dines did showing that I think, you know, and this is an old statistic, but I remember reading 89% of online mainstream heterosexual Porn was depicting violence against women. And so I don't know if that's still accurate, but I can see where those you know, quote, unquote, feminist porn companies were like, Hey, there's, there's this opportunity to do it different. But if, if the problematic porn use is based not on who it depicts hurting or whether people are empowered, but whether you want to stop and you can't, it makes that almost a non issue, right?
Exactly. And I do I do believe that there's different severities of types of porn, right? When there's violence against women and the porn, that's going to be much more harmful than maybe some of the more softcore porn, or porn that's geared towards women. Or even as it relates to women, women tend to use more erotica, or literature based porn. And a lot of women will say, Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't use real people in it. So it's not harming anyone. And that's great that we always want to make sure that that humans are protected. But what's happened in the research that I've done, and I've seen is that women are actually being harmed in other ways, via literature based porn, that's geared towards women, it doesn't harm any individuals in the process. And that was an interesting thing to see. Because their rationale for using it was that it's not harming anyone. And so if I consume it, it's okay. But they were coming. They were coming to participate in my studies saying, Hey, I'm having a serious problem with porn use because of this.
So interesting. What is one thing that you found has been harmful?
Yeah. So I, when I, when I do research with these women, I very much view my my role is not you know, their clinical observer, or that I'm studying them, I very much work in partnership with them. They very much are collaborators in the project with me, and I get their input. I want to know how they feel. And I don't just make an analysis based off of my own findings, I very much incorporate their projection of what they've experienced and how they conceptualize it as part of it. And from what, what, what they have said, as the data has emerged, and what's been a constant theme, and is that this erotica based pornography one, it's really unique because it's geared towards women, it hits on things that are important to a lot of women, it hits emotional elements that are really appealing. It has this romance, it has this escalation that sits with women which differently than it would with a lot of men, and they've appreciate that at the beginning. But they found that that experience is almost unattainable, that they don't even know how to have real interactions with men when it comes to sex, assuming they're heterosexual, right. But in any scenario, I would, I would probably say the same would exist. This just happened. The women I've worked with so far have happened to be majority heterosexual. And they've said that, that through their use of the erotica, they've kind of developed this unhealthy view of what a relationship or sexuality could look like. And it's made them really less able to approach relationships as authentically and additionally, in several cases, there were women who were in a marriage or in serious relationships that were saying that because of that lack of realism in the pornography and what they've become used to they They describe one participant particular that really stood out to me describe it as this deadening of her sexuality, where she was just no longer able to achieve an orgasm, or arousal from her own husband. Because she was just so entangled into the stories and scripts of these different literature pieces. And so she would have to read those or remember those during her sex with her husband in order to even become aroused. And she was very, very, she was very, very upset by this because she loved her husband so much, you know, she didn't want to leave him anything like that. They had a great emotional relationship. It's just the pornography use really started to disrupt the way they were able to have an intimate connection. And you know, that's also the at the heart of what we do at steadfast is helping people to go back to their roots. What, what's it what's appealing to me? What is sexually erotic for me? How do I communicate my relationship to achieve arousal, orgasm? And what does that do for my relationship, it's really about, hey, sexuality, it's a way to bond with a significant other. For the rest of my life, when choosing a partner, is our highest form of communication, it's our way of strengthening that relationship. And when you bring in these other pieces, you're pretty much you're pretty much letting them either speak for you or determine what's attractive to you. And the amazing thing about sexuality is that if it's used in this authentic way, in a relationship, it can bond you in such a way that you become attracted to your partner as they change, you know, as they go through different evolutions in their life that, yeah, I didn't sign up for marrying someone that was going to be this way. But they've evolved and changed. And our sexuality has bonded those experiences over and over again, to the point that I find them attractive when they look like this or when they look like that. And you're not fixed in the state where you're like, Hey, I'm only attracted to this type of person, the person I originally married, you start to grow with that partner, because of that constant sexual bonding and communication that takes place that creates a bond unlike any other. It's, it's your life partner. And it's something you're not doing with anyone else in your life. And so it's a very strong, important and sacred bond that should be honored and really leaving out all these outside influences that are going to disrupt that communication.
I think that's such a wonderful point. And I like the way you conceptualize it as it is a communication you're not having with anyone else. And that's really, it has to be guarded. I'm intrigued that women are also having a hard time with orgasm and climax scene because of erotica, because I know that is also a side effect of problematic porn use. I think I'm using that clinical term correctly in males that have had quite a bit of porn use. I know some of my friends who are medical doctors have talked about, you know, erectile dysfunction in younger and younger and younger boys who are exposed to online pornography as as children and teenagers. And so that really surprises me, but at the same time, it makes perfect sense.
Yeah. And there's, there's a difference, right? There's erectile dysfunction that occurs because of something very physical only that is affecting one's body. But then there's a different and I wouldn't even call it erectile dysfunction. There's something else that takes place when your brain isn't able to open and shut certain doors are different connectors. And that might cause the dysregulation between one's genitals and their brain and so on our body is this very interconnected system. And so that's, that's another thing with addiction versus erectile dysfunction. And what we talked about with this reliance versus whatever the equivalent would be to this erectile dysfunction, which I wouldn't call it that is, the difference is one is a medical condition. One is something that's physically taking place, and then one's occurring in the brain. It's occurring with the body sensors, it's this multi sensory experience that's causing these dysregulation, right?
That's a great way to nuance it. Yeah, it's interesting. So the result is still a dissatisfaction or I mean, you know, there is a negative effect, but it's it's a different mechanism by which those are working.
Exactly. So if I if I could really simplify it, something non sexually related. If you look at if you look at disabilities, for instance, and let's say, there's someone that's paralyzed, and they're in a wheelchair. And they become depressed, because because there's no mechanisms for them to get around, they can't leave their home, which was very much going on. And in the early 1900s, once you're in a wheelchair, you were locked in a hospital or in a room and you didn't leave or go anywhere, you didn't get an education. And so you, you became very would experience mental illness, you know, these different multi sensory experiences that you didn't have access to cause this depression, whereas there's people that just are living their best life and have this chemical occurrence where they need to be on antidepressants, because they have a chemical depression. And so I'd say it's probably something similar that's going on some of these things. There's no like actual medical condition taking place causing this to happen. It's more the different social factors that are taking place that are causing the issue to occur. If that makes sense.
It does. That's really helpful. And I think it's helpful anytime we can draw an analogy for, I mean, it helps me but also our listeners to simplify things as much as possible. Well, I would love to tell our listeners where they can find you what other services you offer, I think it's it's such a great service that you are providing that service Institute. For people who do want to move past this, I would love for you to talk a little bit about how they can find you what you offer. And I'm just really excited to finally be able to speak to you about this.
Thanks, Amy. So right now, what we currently offer is our men's virtual porn recovery program. And it's a really intensive, comprehensive program that's based off of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, as well as DBT, and different types of Emotionally Focused Therapy. And with that program, you have access to a live therapist that can help and coach you throughout the week, wherever you're at in the program. And so it's a really great program because it really dissects porn recovery and breaks it down step by step, rather than, you know, working with a therapist that might not have a deep knowledge of the recovery process for porn, or just going to a therapist that specializes in AACT therapy. Because this program is multifaceted and includes different approaches, specifically target targeted to male porn recovery. And so we also will be having a betrayal trauma program coming out for partners and women's in the future, for women's porn recovery. You know, my heart is really there with the women, it's just these programs take years to develop, we go through extensive research, to develop these programs. And then we also create this almost cinematic experience for the viewers to keep them engaged and really understand and comprehend the content. And so it's a very high quality program. It's not just something that gets thrown up in a year, it takes years to develop. And so we go through everything we possibly can to make this a really strong program. And, you know, we're not just a business for us. This is a research institute, as well as a program Institute. And so all of the all of the funding that goes into these programs, it's it's for the therapist that you have that also goes into research and development and other avenues. And so we're not running your your average business, that some different practices might be this is really a revolving machine to continue creating programs for different marginalized groups and so on. And we're really committed to the quality and efficacy of these programs. And they can be found at the steadfast institute.org
Wonderful, and where can we find you on social media for listeners would like to follow along your journey?
Sure. So my social media handle is at fro mania, McBride, that's F R au meni MCB, our IDE, and I'm constantly posting free information. I keep highlights for individuals that might not be able to afford a program or not ready to commit to a program, keeping them updated on the latest things to consider for recovery and so on. So I'm always having lots of cultural conversations on their surrounding sexuality as well.
Wonderful. Well, I can't thank you enough, Julie, and thank you for your baby who joined us this well, what is their name?
Her name Miz Natasha Concetta pretty long name beautiful.
Oh, well, she is more than welcome. As you know, I have a lot of kids as well. And I think all of this work that we do is it's a labor of love and we don't have to separate from our families to do that. So I love that you cast
so I love that. Yes, baby should be everywhere we are. I think so. I love that you point this out. Yeah.
Well, thank you once again, and I look forward to seeing the steadfast Institute continue to do really good work.
Thank you so much, Amy.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you want to go deeper on this subject or any other subjects we've covered in the podcast, we are so excited to be launching our signature membership program at mending trauma.com This is a trauma informed mental health membership where we combine clinically effective practices, courses and mentoring while putting you in the driver's seat. We teach you how to heal your trauma with the latest research combining mind body and spirit we want to walk you through a healing journey while also empowering you if you have felt this episode is helpful. We would absolutely love if you would go to Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your pods and give us a review. We'd also love it if you would share it with someone you think it might help tag us on social media at mending trauma.com Or at Amy Hoyt PhD, we would love to reshare and also if there's anything we can do to help we would love to hear from you email info at mending trauma.com Give us your suggestions or topics you want to hear about. We would absolutely love to be of more service to you. We're so excited because we have so many good episodes coming up in season two, and we can't wait to go on this journey with you
