I'm recording from my living room in beautiful Marietta, Georgia, you are listening to think inclusive podcast episode five. I'm your host, Tim Vegas. Today I will be speaking with Paula Kluth, an internationally renowned author and speaker about inclusive education. Her books are some of my favorite resources. And I'm constantly recommending her work to my colleagues. A little confession about this recording, it was recorded in May. And I'm finally getting around to editing. Now that it's August. It has been a very busy summer with vacations, visiting with family and me being home with the kids. My littlest one, one of three, just turned one. And my wife and I are coming up on our 10th wedding anniversary. So things have been pretty busy, and they move pretty fast this summer. But I'm really excited about bringing this conversation to you. Paul and I discuss whether reverse inclusion can be a stepping stone to authentic inclusion. We also discuss ways educators can promote inclusion at their local schools, as well as if technology in the classroom is all that it's cracked up to be. So, without further ado, let's get to the podcast. Thanks for listening. Joining us today on the thinking cluesive podcast is Dr. Paula Kluth. an internationally renowned consultant, author, advocate and independent scholar who works with teachers and families to provide inclusive opportunities for students with disabilities, and to create more responsive and engaging schooling experiences for all learners. Paula is a former special educator who has served as a classroom teacher, and inclusion facilitator. She is the author or co author of many books, including Don't we already do inclusion 100 Ways to Improve inclusive schools. And you're going to love this kid, teaching students with autism in inclusive classrooms. Paul, I am honored that you took some time out of your day to speak with us. Welcome to the podcast. Thank
you so much, Tim, I'm really thrilled to be here. I've listened to other podcasts that you have been putting out there for the last couple of months. So thank you for doing that work. And I'm really excited to be included.
Well, thank you. I think that you and my mom are about the only ones who are listening.
I know that's not true.
Well, great, great. Well, let's get right into it. The reason I asked you to be on the program on the podcast, is to talk about your book, of course, we have a lot of other things that you know, we can talk about. But first, I'd like to like to say I love the title of the book, don't we already do inclusion? Do you find that in your trainings or in conversation that you're answering this question a lot? And what what would be like the impetus for you writing this book in the first place? Well,
you know, I first of all, I do love kind of, like clever titles are memorable, but a lot of them do come out of conversations that I've been having. And this, you know, came up a lot in doing a lot of work with teachers and administrators were especially when I was having the privilege of working with schools that were sophisticated that had been doing the work for quite some time. And so I had been spending a lot of time, a lot of my career helping folks move out of, you know, settings that were segregated or self contained and moving into inclusive environments. But I began to realize that, you know, that sometimes that I wasn't having a discussion with folks who were already sort of seen as having inclusive models. And I thought, you know, it's time to maybe address some of the work that is happening or not happening in schools that already have an identity of being inclusive. But but you know, may not realize, or may not have the tools or may not have the awareness that, you know, that really in the work of inclusive education, like in the work of education in general, like in the work of parenting or you know, that the work is never really done. And, you know, so you know, some of the things that came up in the writing, you know, the sort of impetus for writing, were, you know, being in schools were, you know, that they were they were you know, the school was known for inclusion sometimes for a decade or two. And it had that reputation yet there were kids with certain labels, who had never been brought back from private placements and who were never thought of as candidates for included. Did you know that kind of thing or where I would be in a school where they would have a lot of great energy around certain elements of inclusivity, so that they were maybe great support good co teaching models and things like that. But some students sort of received a lot of education in a room called the inclusion room. So I used to joke and say, if you have a room called the inclusion room, you're probably not an inclusive school. But you know, just things that are, you know, just for all of us that, you know, things that all of us that no matter what part of the journey we're at, could probably sit back and be a little reflective. And that's really what the book is about.
That it's good. I mean, the, the examples you give, I think, are very concrete, and I love your style of writing. It's very conversational. So it's very, it's very easy to read, and it's a great conversation starter. I would love, I would love to have this as a resource for our school district. Although I don't think that's gonna, I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't want to be too cynical now. But what a dream. What I what I think is interesting about what you said about about systems, schools, districts that have had a history of being, quote unquote inclusive, is that those those systems kind of have their own idea of what inclusion is, you know, and so they play it out. They play it out, whoever, however, that culture, I guess, deems fit. I remember when I was doing my teacher training, and we went to a school. This was when I was living in California and in Orange County. And we went to a school that was that was a model for inclusion. Yet they did not have any students with significant disabilities. At the time, I didn't even think that was weird, because I never I had never worked with any, any students with significant disabilities. So it was just like, oh, okay, well, you know, they go somewhere else. But it is interesting that, that certain schools, I guess, define inclusion, a particular way. Do you have a, this isn't? You know, this isn't necessarily something that I was going to talk about. But do you have a definition of inclusion?
Well, I think about inclusion, you know, and this is not, I wouldn't say this is my definition alone. But I think a way that a lot of people think about inclusion in this, that I've been involved in this movement, think about it with what I would call, the big I was sort of thinking about inclusion, like inclusion is bringing kids with disabilities out of segregated environments, into welcoming common environments, inclusive environments, this sort of our, you know, original sort of way of thinking about this, but I think a lot of people, it's just not mine. But this big is about inclusion. In other words, inclusion around race and ethnicity, and sexual orientation, and disability and ability and gender. And really thinking about inclusion is really about making schools, you know, appropriately challenging, safe, welcoming, you know, for every student. And part of that, you know, part of that definition is that students are educated together, they're educated side by side with their neighbors and their siblings and classmates in this in these in these common environments. And that we don't have classrooms only for certain kinds of learners. That doesn't mean that we can't have small group instruction, it doesn't mean that we can't have, you know, students working independently on projects, it doesn't mean that we can't have kids grouped in really interesting ways, including across grade levels and things like that. Kids can still get all kinds of personalized instruction, but that we don't want to see spaces that are designated just for certain learners that other kids can't access. You know, I think it's perfectly fine for kids with certain disabilities, to have a respite in a quieter area. I just think everybody should be able to have that. Right, I think, yeah, I think some kids need a lot of small group instruction. I just think a lot of kids should get access to small group instruction. So So those are some of the ways that we think about, you know, inclusion, which is just that, you know, all kids get access to sort of all these different ways of being in schools, and that we don't leave inclusion at just these issues of ability and disability, but we're also thinking really broadly,
right? I know that There's here in Georgia, the exceptional children's week is kind of a something that is that comes out in the in the calendars and the PTA calendars. And something that I did this year was I moved it from that to inclusive schools week. But it was very, but it was very good because they we have the national inclusive schools week in December. But it was, it's very difficult to change the mindset to it, it, it not just being about disability. Because we ended up I mean, we ended up doing a lot of stuff that was disability related. But I would like, you know, for us to keep on moving to really look at that, that the you're right, the big guy, inclusion doesn't just mean, you know, learning differences, it also means cultural differences, and, and so on. So what, what I thought was interesting about what you said was that, having places in the school where it is not just for a particular student, that that the groupings of students can be a lot more fluid, and creative. Do you think that because of the way that public education is, especially in the United States, do you feel that is difficult because of the constraints of the Common Core? And, I mean, I mean, I can I can list a million things.
I mean, it's interesting that you say common core, because in a way, you know, when I saw Common Core standards, and really took a look at them, I thought, well, this actually could be helpful they want to sort of the under underlying, or the elements of Common Core is we really want to bring appropriate levels of challenge to all kids, you know, so. So I love that that disability wasn't left out of the discussion, that's really helpful. So just like the other versions of standards, I mean, they don't tell us how to teach, but they do tell us, you know, where we want kids to be. And so that leaves a lot of flexibility and creativity. And I think, you know, if we don't work together and think about all these different permutations and ways to be ways to be in schools, that makes those standards harder to achieve. And so, yeah, I do think there are a lot of the constraints are, some are real, and some are imagined. You know, some are like, actually, like, you know, my principal would never let me do that, in some constraints are just like, well, have we ever tried? I mean, have we ever asked, Have we ever thought of designing this in a different way? So somewhere, just imagine. So for example, you know, a lot of teachers, you know, I talked a lot about in the book, I talked about radical role sharing, so that, you know, paraprofessionals, teachers, special educators, therapists, you know, just by behaving a little bit differently, can create some of these, you know, these different ways of being whether it's through lesson formats, or teaching strategies, just by having different conversations tomorrow, you know, so if I said, Well, I really think that, you know, small group instruction is really for everybody. Well, when you come into the, you know, tomorrow for speech therapy, why don't you come into the classroom? And why don't we work in a stent centers or stations model, instead of a more traditional whole class model? I mean, almost instantly, you would, you would be giving kids access to adults, they couldn't typically access kids have disabilities would still get what they needed. And, you know, you'd have students without disabilities getting some instruction, that would be novel, that would be different. So I think sometimes, just by thinking different, an individual thinking differently can create some of those things. Other things are harder to do, you know, like, actually, the creation of spaces or, you know, figuring out, you know, I've been in schools where it's like, paraprofessionals can never ever work with students with disability without disabilities. And I say, Well, you know, how sure, are you about that? And what is the actual guideline around that? Let's actually look at what the policies are. So sometimes people have been, you know, it's a folklore in a school, you know, about how things actually behave. So I think sometimes it takes an inventive teacher to say, you know, I wonder if, if I came to my leadership or to my colleagues, with some ideas, it could be a single idea about having, you know, making certain spaces accessible to all. So I'll just give one more example of that. And one of the schools I worked in, there was like in a traditional special ed classroom, and that was no longer going to be used and treated as a traditional special ed classroom. So they just called it something different. So we call it like the Learning Lab. I can't remember but something like that. And that space was that available. It was two sided one had a lot of sensory stuff in it. And so anybody could go in there and sort of take a break or read or study or something like that. And then the other side had tables, so kids, that project based instruction could take place in there. And so there were certain kids and groups of kids that accessed it more, but it was open to anybody. So that was just a simple, I mean, really a paint job and putting a different name on the door. I mean, you know, some of those things are possible almost immediately. Right? Right.
I know a lot of, I've had many conversations with special educators in, in my county, in the schools or school district I'm in but also in other counties, in a lot of believe in the philosophy of inclusion, or, you know, or at least on kind of our, our side of the fence, but have a hard time seeing how it plays out practically, especially for self contained classrooms. It in me being a self contained teacher, you know, I've tried to, I've tried to kind of break that mold. But I mean, I'm having a hard time too, with a, you know, teachers and paraprofessionals being cut, because of budget, you know, budget reductions, and then also just running into that philosophical difference. And no one's gonna, no one's gonna want to really work at it harder than than I am, or whoever is whoever really believes in it. So what would be your suggestion, you know, to me, or to other educators who are in self contained classrooms and want to pursue inclusion for their kiddos? Well,
I think, you know, it's, it's almost the same situation in a very strange parallel, that parents, you know, find themselves in, they have great desire and not enough power to make an immediate switch, right. But parents have a ton of desire and knowledge, but they don't have the power to go in and make something miraculously happen. And the same is true of a lot of teachers. I mean, Tim, I'm sure, you know, teachers like this, I know, teachers who have been written up pursuing these agendas. I know, teachers who have been fired pursuing these agendas. I know, teachers who have had, you know, all kinds of reprimands and marks in the records, you name it. And so it's not easy at all, it as families can tell you in there kind of struggle. So one of the things I always tell families is, you remember that song, there's at least 50 ways to leave your lover, you know, there's like, at least you know, 50 of that 500 ways to get inclusion if you're a parent, not all of them. And not most of them are easy. But I think that there's a different, almost a different path taken by almost every parent that you meet, who got that who wanted it and got there, some of them are very quiet, and they just chip away. Some of them are fierce, some of them get really mad, some of them sue, some of them move, some of them open up, you know, some of them run for PTO and become the school board president. Some of them I know, one model opened up her own school, you know, kind of like a hybrid charter kind of school. I mean, that's, that's unique. Being in a school board is unique. So I'm always fascinated by that. And I think the same is true for teachers. I doubt that there's one way for any teacher to make this happen. But there are lots of things that I know that teachers have done to be, you know, effective, if not getting all the way there, but chipping away. And so I've known teachers who have pursued this through a single co teaching relationship, you know, found a great partner and said, we think we could you know, a preschool teacher and a kindergarten teacher, we think we could get this going and created a formal proposal. And a lot of administrators, if you can think of a way to do it. This is not easy. This is hard. But you had an apt proposal, my administrator used to say, Don't come to me with problems unless you have three solutions. You know, some folks are open to that some folks action research and saying, look, here's what I found my kids that were out for this language arts period. Their marks look different than the kids who were back here. I feel like I can meet their needs better over here. Some people very subversively educate parents about inclusion. That's not for everybody either, but I love it. Yeah. And they get families involved. In my district where I am, we have a little parent group called Oak Park inclusion network, and there are teachers that have come to these events, and they're interested in getting things going, you know, so they're kind of working with parents to see what else can be done. Some folks, you know, actually try to educate their principles. And, you know, one of the things they say about their research is I used to argue this, you know, inclusion issue up and down morally, ethically, and I just don't anymore, I just say look at the research. It's, you know, clearest day. And so I think, you know, there's some principles that like data, they respond to it. So looking at, you know, the study I talked about all the time is George and Julie, Theo Harris's schools of promise, data out of Syracuse University, showing an administrator, some of the numbers and just saying, if this is true, what does that mean for us, some administrators love that not all of them, but some of them. Some folks, you know, pursue these agendas, to getting politically active. So I know some teachers who have actually formed, you know, study teams or book clubs or, you know, you know, summer use, you know, summertime to sort of organize around think tanks of sorts. So you know, what will be a step, what will be a step in that direction for us. So, I think none of them are easy in a really tough situation. And quite frankly, I know, teachers who have moved, so the kids are like, I can't get it done here. So I have to do it from the outside. And you know, I've gone to places where they feel that they felt they could be effective. But there's nothing more exciting to me than having an inclusion minded teacher in a self contained classroom. That's exactly who I want there. Because that's who's going to fight to make these changes. And that's who's going to be creative and inventive when they see an opening. So I would tell teachers do not give up over under a rounder, through find a way or make away. And if you run into a dead end this way, try a different method. Use parents as your models. They are clever. Yes,
they are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, I know, there's plenty of parents out there that know exactly how to get what they what they want for their for their kids. And may take a while, but a lot of them get there. Yeah, exactly. along that lines of kind of that over and under and through and just making a way. I'm curious to know what your opinion is on the concept of reverse inclusion. And I think that there, there was a study. I'm going to show you how unprepared I am. But there's, there's a there was a study out, I think, in exceptional children, probably 678 years ago. And it talks about reverse inclusion in the in the way that the social benefits of reverse inclusion. But I really am more interested in the academic benefits. And if, if you feel or if you feel that is a stepping stone to create creating a more inclusive school?
Well, it's a really great question. And it's actually one of the items that I did address in the book because it came up so often. So I kind of have a two part solution to it. I don't actually think I agree with you. I guess the first thing I say I do agree with you that, that there are great social benefits to bring in kids with disabilities together. And this is this is sort of the conversation I have with a lot of teams, especially teachers who feel very much alone. And they'll say, you know, there are really great social benefits. And I do see the kids doing better. And what I will try to point out ever so gently for folks that I already know are stressed out and feel like they're doing the one thing that they can do is what you're actually seeing are the benefits of you know, I don't doubt that those benefits are there. Those are the benefits that we would see in an inclusive classroom if we could get because of course we see that kids, you know, I just was having a conversation with a teacher last year. And she kept saying you should see the kids together, though, Paul, I know you don't like this, but you should see him together. I said, I do see them together in inclusive classrooms. That's where I want it to be. But But would I do you know? So the two part is, I think teachers, you know, you are they're doing everything that they can from their end. So practically, I think they have to do what they have to do from a person who would come in and consult with your school, or what would be my opinion in general, Tim, which is a different question. I would say no, it's not a stepping stone, because quite frankly, it rarely ever gets you to the other end of that stone path. In other words, it's actually what I have seen is the opposite. It becomes a stopgap it becomes an you know, for a lot of administrators or school systems. It you know, it kind of becomes a reason that you don't have to take the next step because we're already doing something. Right. When you look at the Feds when you look at the law where we have to bring kids with and without disabilities together. Oh God, we can do that over here. So the kids are accessing that time and space with each other but we never have to sort of, you know, change what we're doing and that's my biggest problem from it not from what a teacher is trying to do, but from a district or administration point of view is it fails to it fails to have the system at arrogated cells. And so this, the larger structures never change. I have in fact, I've never seen or I shouldn't say very seldom I've seen there's, I gotta leave it open for someone to tell me later that they heard this and it happened in their school. I can't remember seeing anytime that many times that, that that this was actually a, you know, a quick and logical stepping stone to actually getting kids included. Oftentimes, it's, it's the, it's the reason why we never get there, because we've got this sort of convenient, you know, situation now sort of that we that we're sustaining, where kids are getting somewhat, you know, these access and they're getting, but what what they're usually not getting is access to that greater general education, the richness of the larger context of general education, they're not getting access to a very broad range of peers, peers, and the Internet, getting access to general education teachers. And we know that that's a very powerful part of this mix, as well as this collaboration piece. So it's not that I don't respect and admire what the hard working teachers are trying to do, because they're stuck, that I get, I get being stuck and doing everything that you can, that's subversive, in a way. But what I why I don't endorse him, why don't like it is because for a lot of districts, or buildings, it lets them off the hook ever create those those broader changes and really look at systemically, you know, how would we have to change? You know, how would we adapt and modify for all kinds of learners? How could the school sort of, you know, look different for the broad range of learners that not only are here now, but will enter our doors, right for years to come? And so I think we could it sticks us in that holding pattern. So yes, yeah, I bet if I had to say, but but I, you know, I get the teacher piece. And that's a different, you know, that's a different story altogether, as folks that are just trying to not be fired, and do everything that they can. And that makes sense to me that people are trying to make create these stepping stones and eventually, you know, push that door open and hope that nobody notices that you're going the other direction, right? I know people who have done it.
Yeah, I definitely agree. It's not it's not ideal, you know, I know for myself in just my own practice. I mean, since I started teaching, which is close to 10 years ago, now, I had been doing some sort of version of reverse inclusion, along in in in conjunction with having students go out into Gen Ed, because of their because of the amount of support that that I had in the classroom. And then I took a look, I took a little bit of a different approach, especially this year, because I do have 1/3 grader who is fully included in a third grade classroom with a paraprofessional, but of course, he is my still under my caseload, which means my paraprofessional, that's I mean, all things being equal, they they, you know, count that person as being in my room. Right? Because of allotments. And no, she, I know that you know, about that. So. So what I had been doing is taking the days where third, fourth and fifth grade have, we have a target or gifted education. So a portion of that classroom is gone, because they're in another pullout situation. So that classroom would join my classroom for academic activities. So which was really nice, because this is the first time I was able to really collaborate with the general ed teacher. And we would do some sort of co teaching lesson, which is different than I had been doing before. Usually, when I had been talking or thinking about reverse inclusion, it was, Okay, three or four kids from so and so's fourth grade class are going to be coming in, and we're going to be doing some sort of activity. So it's a little bit different. It's definitely not, you know, what I would love for it to happen. But I think at the core, you know, at the core of this whole thing, are the assumptions of our administrators and central office, you know, the superintendent that special education directors, superintendents, the school board members, that special education is a separate thing. In general education, that special education teachers do something different then than general educators, inherently those children are different. So that is why we educate them in this particular way, or in this particular with this particular curriculum. And then we do it the other way for the other kids. With, you know, and I don't agree with that, I, and I would assume that you wouldn't agree with that either. Or wouldn't because we want to look at how we can increase learning for all learners. So I guess my, my setup is, if our kids aren't different, they all learn, how do we create systems so that everyone can learn together? Is it? Is it universal design? Is it something else? Is it go ahead?
I was just gonna say first, I just want to go back to your to your piece about the what you're doing with your colleague, you know, that to me is very interesting example, about the co teaching example, because it sounds more to me, like you're, you're engaging in one of those early behaviors I talked about, which is targeting a specific colleague, and trying to get something going with co teaching. I mean, that's, you know, that's a little bit different than what most people think about as reverse inclusion, isn't it? I mean, in other words, you're involving somebody else. And you're saying, you know, we've got these common times, I wonder if this would work, you know, so that is actually I think, in many ways, a very good example of somebody who's feeling powerless, but has found a sort of sneaky way to start collaborating, co teaching and, you know, engaging in joint lessons with appropriate levels of, you know, pretty challenging, appropriately challenging, standards based content. So that actually, I think, is a really positive examples. I just wanted to clarify that. Because if people are listening and thinking, whom, you know, what would be, you know, another way of doing this reverse inclusion? I think the sneaky little thing that you've done there, Tim is quite, quite interesting.
Well, thanks. Yeah.
So and I love sneaky for sure. But yes, in the second piece that you kind of introduced this question is, you know, you bring up such an important point that it you know, the research has been remarkably consistent for 20 years, that the reason that we're asking these questions, which are just I hate that we're even asking and answering these questions about what's this poor teacher all by him or herself supposed to do? Well, we know that the research says that we need leadership. I mean, can can you make it happen? I have no doubt if anybody can, you can. But why should you have to? I mean, it's, you know, on top of everything else you're doing as a teacher, how exhausting and how hard on both you and the students. So, you know, we really do need those leaders. And we have seen examples where teachers have been the ones that have been the shepherds of this, but it is so much harder. And when we see schools that are robust and healthy, and do the good work of inclusion and get those reputations. Those are that's the leadership. I mean, that's when we have building leadership and most of the time district leadership. So you're absolutely right there. That's one of the ways that we create these schools as we really educate our leaders, and we take them to task. And that's why I go back to one of my most common, I guess, Belva bells that I ring in these kinds of talks, which is, you know, who hires your superintendent, your school board, and parents can run for school board. So that's one of the things I say again, and again, and again, parents, if that is for you really think about running for school board. So that's so there's that piece, as far as what it looks like in schools? Yeah, I think Universal Design is going to be is a big part of that will be a big part of that. I think, maybe the use of technology, you know, people call the iPad. I've heard people call the iPad to quiet revolution. So that so many kids on the spectrum that we work with are now showing up in a different way. He looked different to communicate differently. So I think the ways that technology will advance in the next 10 and 20 years will shock us, and we're gonna start to see that kids are not who we thought they were. But they are far more competent than we ever could have imagined that not just because of disabilities, that kids will be able to show up different. So I think that's gonna have a big impact. And I just think looking at personalized ways of being in general. So people have often said, you know, wouldn't it be great if there was an IEP for every student? Some schools have sort of adopted that in different ways. I think you will see more of that. And I think technology is actually already leading the way on that. You know, so you if you've got Kindles and a lot of these schools, it's amazing. You know, a lot of them are going to the one on one, tech, you used to be in Tim, I know you were probably in there with Me too, making the adapted books up all night with the, you know, all the materials and cutting and pasting and all that, you know, and you know, and then it was just the book was destroyed in a day. You know now like you walk into a classroom and all the kids, you know, have Kindles or books or they're on the computer, everybody's reading in a different way. So now we were kind of getting to that IEP, if for everyone. In other words, you could be at any place in this computer, you know, doing these math apps and kids can be working on the particular pieces that are most helpful. A lot of people are using flipped classrooms and mathematics so that kids actually watch the lesson at home and engage in more individualized instruction in the classroom, that has huge potential for personalizing. And so now I was just doing a talk on this last week, you can even have kids watching two different kinds of videos in your classroom. So when they come into work and do their mathematics or whatever they're doing, they can actually be working on individual goals. So it's not to say that kids are not going to come together on anything. That's, you know, that's a common, I mean, that's why we have common core. But But what we are going to be able to do is have some sort of shared vision for kids, but the ways in which they get to learn, and the ways in which they can show us what they know, are going to be evermore buried in the kind of culture in the kinds of schools that they're going to, you know, these sort of, you know, hopefully, you know, tech rich schools and those that are universally designed and everything else, it's going to give us some of those opportunities. So the good news is, I mean, this is, you know, some of the stuff when we talk about this. And I think for both of us, it can be a little depressing. But I think the good news is, and it's great news, actually, we are only finding out decade after decade, that inclusion, we're getting better and better news, as the research goes on, we're only finding out that, you know, this is better for kids than we ever thought it was not only socially, but academically and in every other way. And the other piece of good news is the way that schools are evolving and changing, actually, we'll profit our kids even more. This is all good news. You know, if we can if we can sort of tap into that and sort of make those arguments and bring those discussions, again, to those stakeholders that you mentioned before, whether it's school boards, parents, teachers, administrators, district level, folks, whatever.
Yeah, all that stuff is very encouraging. And I do have to keep that in the front of my mind. Because I do think eventually. And I don't know how long that's going to be. But I think eventually we're going to move toward inclusion or an inclusive model. I think, but we're going to be fighting tooth and nail for those with with some people with some administrators with some teachers, who still have the concept of the traditional, you know, one teacher 30 Kids 30 desks model, which is, which is, you know, I mean, that's, I mean, you know, I think I can't remember the name, but it's the industrial kind of, you know, that's, that's how things were, you know, in the in the 20s and 30s. And we were waiting, I mean, we're so beyond that, but I think our public school system is still very much stuck in, in that rut. So
the good news is, I think that the teet the kids that are coming out, not only the not only the students that are coming out as teachers, you know, they always had these kids have always had cell phones, you know, the the teachers coming out now. You know, they've, you know, they've, they've had them since they've been kids, they have always had the internet. But they've had, you know, they've had YouTube they've had, you know, it's really interesting, and not only that, but a lot of the parents that we're going to be serving in, quite frankly, it won't be too long before the new faculty members that we have, you know, have come up in a different way of being educated. So I think one sort of, you know, like, maybe this is too optimistic, but I'm thinking, you know, hopefully the ways in which teacher education will change as a teacher educators change and as teachers bring in new sets of skills and expectations, you know, those folks that see, you know, this run, you know, one teacher 30 kids facing forward, you know, I'm hoping that we won't, those models will become more obsolete and people won't be attracted to folks that feel that way will see the new ways of being in the field, whether it's through field placement or through new ways of instructing in the university and we'll say maybe this isn't for me, right. You know, it is new and different. If you and the ways that pace at which this is changing. If you don't really used to be like, if you loved English, you could be a good English teacher, like you would get a great job or if you liked kids. Now, if you don't like the act of teaching, and quite frankly, if you don't like learning, it will be hard to be a teacher, because things will change far too rapidly. For you to keep up. And so those things don't excite you. Hopefully, hopefully. So you know, those, those individuals will go in a different direction, because that's where the and I think also, with collaboration, I think the field is definitely heading toward, you know, those spaces as well, just because of what I've just said, I mean, how quickly things are changing, we will need each other. Certainly, you know, the idea of having one tech person in your district that does all of our work, that's going to change, we're all gonna have to have expertise around what that looks like. And some of that already is changing. But I think we are gonna move towards more, I'll just say one more thing about that I get this Harvard magazine, you know, this school of ad magazine. And one of the articles a couple of actually, this was in that this wasn't even in the school that this was just in the regular alumni magazine. It was about it was about the swans. The article was about the swan song of the lecture. That wasn't quite the title. But it was about how Harvard professors are saying, you know, what, the information is changing so quickly, that if we're just going to read the book, and reiterate, there will be way ahead of us. So there's too much information available, we can't we'll be dinosaur dinosaurs if we do that. So what they're doing at Harvard is they're doing tons more experiential and project based work. You know, so if one of the old the oldest institutions in the country has figured out that I can't talk at them anymore, because they can't learn as easily, and also people won't come to Harvard, because it could just as easily get the information elsewhere. That I that makes me hopeful that other institutions will change, too.
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's very interesting, because I work with an mixed variety of ages. And something that I hear not just in my school, but, you know, in general, is this really philosophical difference that the changes that are happening to children to families because of technology is a negative thing? Whereas, you know, people in my generation and younger, don't necessarily go towards that? Because, you know, because, I mean, I do see the benefits of differentiating with technology. And things don't always have to be so, you know, lecture based. And so it's just a it's a very much, I think, a cultural thing, too. I don't know about another countries, I know, the in the United States. This, it's a changing of the guard. It's, it's a it's a new way of doing what we've been doing. And I agree, I hope the younger teachers will be attracted to that. You know, for education. One more question. This has been a great conversation. But one more question. As we kind of wrap things up, is that in, in your opinion? Can the special schools, private, you know, private schools for, you know, kids with ADHD or, you know, quote, unquote, high functioning autism, or homeschool kids? Or? Like, are those systems programs, whatever you want to call it? Even even religious education? can those be a truly inclusive system? Or are they missing out because they're not being served in a public school?
Right. Well, I I personally see homeschooling, apart from the other examples that you gave it all and I think other people have different views on that. But the reason I see that differently is that families have chosen and sometimes they've chosen that because they couldn't get inclusion or they couldn't get the services that they needed. But a lot of times, that was just a choice that I want to be my child's teacher. And what a lot of families there's a lot of homeschooling in my community, because it's a very sort of art space and progressive, you know, just kind of does a very interesting, very family centered community. I think a lot of people find inclusion through through music classes and through, you know, extracurricular activities and parents come together, you know, to do some of that work. So, I think that one is a little bit different in that at, you know, I families have chosen to be their child's teacher and, and, and they find inclusion within the family. I mean, that's one of the things that I love that Doug Biklen says is that the the one institution that is the most inclusive in the world is the family. Absolutely. And that's true. As far as some of the other examples, you know, I think it's not that I at all, don't appreciate what a lot of schools are trying to do to give kids specialized instruction and support. Again, I just go back to, you know, my argument about the reverse inclusion is that what really worries me about some of these models is that we never challenge our public schools, the schools that we all pay for, you know, for everybody to access. If we don't bring in even, for example, one of the most controversial examples are kids who are deaf and hard of hearing. And I really get that, I mean, I get that I would not want my child to go to school without other kids who he or she could talk to very fluently. So one of the answers, one of the discussions we have to have about that is, How could that happen in public schools. And so what happens, I know see, one of those, there's a couple of urban school districts, including Chicago that hadn't had a school like this, where it was a dual bilingual program. And so everybody learned fine from the youngest ages on so that several kids that was a was a cluster sight for kids who are deaf and hard of hearing, but everybody was learning fine, just like in some schools, everybody learned Spanish. So it's not that I don't get that kids, you know, people will say, but it's a culture issue, and deaf kids need to be together, I understand that. I just think we could bring that into public schools. If you asked me, Would you want your child might your children who don't have identified needs to be fluent in sign language with a time they left Elementary School? I mean, who wouldn't want that? Right? What an asset. So that's the kind of dream I think that we can have. That's, that's a promise of a truly inclusive school, school or school district. And so the same can be said with disabilities, whether it's autism, it's like, you know, if you're going to a special setting, so that you can have be in a really sensory safe space. Why couldn't we bring that into our public schools, if that's something that's really needed for lots of kids, and they're going to have to sort of learn how to cope with that and, and ask for those things and advocate later in life. You know, I think I would like my kid to be in a school without fluorescent lighting glaring on them. And if you think that's really effective, let's talk about making Safe Schools, more sensory safe for everybody, because I believe that that's a good thing. So what could happen over here? How can we challenge our school districts to sort of be as if not all things to all people as close as we can possibly get? And that's sort of for me, where I, at least, you know, I know, it's, you know, very optimistic, but we've seen enough, we've seen so many great stories. And we've seen this happen time and time, again, where people sort of do live the dream, that I feel like if I'm going to do work in this area, you know, I want to just keep pushing, you know, pushing myself forward and pushing other folks forward to say, to ask that question of what is possible. I
feel like there are certain schools in the country, particularly private schools, like, for instance, the ideal school in Manhattan, and then there's the hope technology school out in the Bay Area, California. And then there's one more that I'm forgetting that there's a documentary that was featured in Education Week, and I don't have it off the top of my head, but there are schools that are trying this model about educating children together. Are there other there? Are there public school districts in the United States that are being successful at this model? And if that if they're, if they are, where are they? You know, and is it just one school or a couple schools? Or is it much broader than I think, what's happening?
Well, I, you know, I, I can answer that to some extent, but the reason it makes me a little uncomfortable is because, you know, I feel like families, you know, do listen and listen to it. I know, you think that it's only your mom, you know, I would hate to say, here's what I'll say, okay, that that that's that leadership, whenever leadership changes, school change, schools change. And so the minute you say or right, this is the best school district ever, and then the superintendent leave, you know, so it's tricky. I did a study several years ago called I think it's called going away to school and it was about parents who move to get inclusion and one of the things that they found was that the one Have our findings was that oftentimes parents did say I would do it again, you know, cost me a lot of money. It was horrible personally. But I would do it again. But in some cases, it was only good for two years, because then we get to the middle school and that was horrible. Or he graduated high school and the community had no services. So I think talking about like, where can you go to get it is a little bit tricky. But I will say this, we know that it's drastically different from state to state, right. So we know that places like Vermont and New Hampshire get really good marks, you know, they're doing a great job. And now he's come up on top, when you look at, you know, those federal statistics. And then there's other places like Illinois, where I live, which is always on the bottom. And so there's a huge, huge discrepancies Madison, Wisconsin, where I went to school, they, you know, have recently won national awards around inclusion that's been fairly consistent. You know, as far as their reputation, having said that, when I point out certain school districts and talks, and I still do that, I always had someone come up to me and say, you know, that school district you talked about in California? That's so progressive? Yeah. Well, my nephew went there. And he was completely excluded. It can be different within, you know, within, within the district itself. So, so there is the you named a couple of I was just at a, we had an inclusion conference here, and Bill Henderson spoke. So he was the principal of the O'Hearn School, which is now the Dale Henderson school in Boston for you know, many years. And they did a lot of really interesting things out there. They owe her in school in Boston public. But again, it's probably not, you know, a bill, the first essay wasn't perfect, but it was certainly innovated in ways that are worth studying. And he actually has a new book out, called the blind advantage that I would definitely recommend, you know, there's the Jim O'Neill preschool in Syracuse, New York, fantastic reputation for including for bringing families and kids with and without disabilities together, and really thinking about just community issues, too, and family issues and some of those big eye issues we talked about earlier. So you know, if families are really seeking, you know, where are these places, you know, they're their parent training centers, are some of the best places to find out ask other parents. Because one of the other elements in the books is kind of a perfect full circle, is I think it's one of the first things in the book, I say, if you want to know, if you're inclusive, ask people, like, don't answer me, you know, are you inclusive? Don't tell me what you think, sample five people in the hallway, a parent, a kid, a teacher, a therapist, you know, and the nurse and tell me what they said. And I think when you ask, you know, different kinds of stakeholders, like parents, were they really including kids, they're having these conversations, they're on the web, they're, you know, in the chat rooms, they, they can tell you, they're on Facebook, and they know those some of those stories. So I would say two things. One, there are ways to find out currently, who's doing the good work. And then number two, to realize that, you know, that dip, you know, passionate people working together, can create places like the hope technology school, and, you know, the bill Henderson school and the Jeronimos school. In fact, that's, you know, when you look back on it, that's always how these schools got their start with a you know, demography is a small group of committed people. So, you know, sometimes it's worth it to look outside. And sometimes it's worth to, to just start something right where you are.
Well, I think I think that's a perfect, you know, ending to our conversation. I can't, you know, thank you enough. This has been fabulous. I hope that everyone gets something out of this. We talked about a lot of stuff. So I'm sure. I'm sure that it, everyone will. So once again, thank you to Paul Clute for joining us on The thinking cluesive podcast. Good luck with everything I know that you are, you know, very successful, I can only imagine, you know what is in your future, more trainings, more books, and hopefully, you know, changing our world for the better. So, thank you so, so much.
You're very long.
That concludes this edition of The think inclusive podcast. For more information about Paula Kluth. You can follow her on Twitter at Paula Kluth and on both of our websites, Paula kluth.com or differentiation daily.com. Remember, you can always find us on Twitter at think underscore inclusive or on the web and think conclusive.us Today's show was produced by myself talking into USB headphones using a newly refurbished MacBook Pro GarageBand and a Skype account bumper music by Jose Galvez with the song press. You can find it on iTunes. You can also subscribe to the podcast via the iTunes Music Store, or podomatic.com. The largest community of independent podcasters on the planet from Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on think inclusive podcast. Thank you for your time and attention
