You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 195. All entrepreneurs eventually hit a ceiling in scaling their business alone that starts them down the path of exploring when and how do I start hiring. Today's guests brings a unique perspective to the hiring process, leveraging internships to build her team. Heather Brown is a full time blogger podcast host of Healthy with Heather Brown ebook author and educator behind the brand, My Life Well Loved, reaching more than 1 million women a year through her content. Heather's case study documents how she took her blogging business from solopreneur ship to thriving team, resulting in a remarkable 45% increase in revenue within the first five months of hiring help, a net increase of $35,000 in profit from an initial $5,000 investment. Keep listening to hear Heather's experience on why paying for support pays off.
Welcome to cubicle to CEO the podcast. I'm your host Ellen Yin. I quit my job without a backup plan and bootstrapped my first $300 freelance project into $2 million in revenue by age 28. On the show, you'll hear weekly case study interviews with leading entrepreneurs and CEOs who share one specific strategy that successfully grew their business revenue. Skip the expensive and time consuming learning curve of testing everything yourself by borrowing what actually works from the best and brightest mentors. You'll also get a front row seat to my founders journey through transparent income reports and behind the business solo episodes. Subscribe now so we can grow together every Monday
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Hey Heather, welcome to our show.
Hey, Ellen. I'm so excited to get to chat with you after just having you on my blog. Guess what a treat.
I know back to that conversation. Those are my favorite. Heather is a blogger from Alabama and today's case study really intrigued me mostly because I think one of the most difficult things we have to do as entrepreneurs and business owners is to learn how to lead a team, but not even just lead a team, hire the right team and learn how to ask for help really is the skill set there. And Heather has just done such an amazing job of expanding her business from being a solopreneur, to now having nine team members. And what was most unique about her case study when I was reading the pitch was how she's really leveraged internships, to grow her team and to build her business. So I won't get too much into that just yet. Before we dive into the actual case study, I want to hear your cubicle the CEO story, Heather. So what was the catalyst that made you leap from employee to entrepreneur?
Yeah, great question. So I have been blogging for five ever, I always joke with people, I am a blogging dinosaur, I actually was very into money saving at the time, my husband was a accountant and decided that he was miserable. And so he went back to school to become a nurse practitioner. And I have always worked in marketing. And so we had to really learn how to pinch pennies and what that looked like. And so I was just working full time. And then because I was getting so good at couponing and saving money on groceries, and all these things, my friends kept saying to me, Heather, how do you do it? How are you saving so much money? And then eventually, one of my friends and you know what, I'm just gonna start your blog. And then you can say, well, if you didn't see on the blog that I got these carrots for 20 cents a bag, then you can be like, Well, you didn't read the blog today. So very humble beginnings. I guess it's probably about 12 years ago now. And I just did the blog for fun at night, I would go to work all day 8am to 5pm, come home.
And then I started working part time at Pure Bar, which is a ballet bar based exercise, I'd work that part time job from 530, to 630, workout from 630 to 715, and then come home and do dinner and family time. And then I'm a night owl. And so because my husband had to work so many nights in the beginning, that was like what I got to work on my passion project of, I call it savingmoneyandlivinglife.com Back then, now many minutes later, it is mylifewellloved.com. And just through a series of prayer, open doors, I have a Journalism and Mass Communication background, I truly believe that the Lord has opened the doors that I was meant to walk through and he slammed the doors shut that I did not need to walk through. And Eric and I as you can tell from him being an accountant, he was very into numbers. And so he would be crunching the numbers and we'd be figuring out, okay, now I can work part time into the blog part time to okay now and cut out this until eventually it became okay, I'm having my little boy. And if we're ever going to make the leap of faith, we have saved the money, now's our chance. And so we took the leap, and God has caught me and lifted me up. And it's just been unbelievable to see how he is provided.
That's amazing. I love that with your story. It was a really gradual progression. That's why I always enjoy hearing people's own process or path from cubicle to CEO. Because you know, for some of us like myself, it was a very drastic just cut and dry. We're leaving with no backup plan. And then for others, like you, it's really cool to see the thought process behind how you slowly cut back on your work hours until the blog became your full time income. And today's case study. By the way, if you guys are wondering about the numbers behind the case study is all about how Heather like I mentioned, went from being a solopreneur to having a team of nine, and how she was able to increase her revenue in her business by 45% in just the first year of having team members alone, so it was an actual added $35,000 In total revenue that her business brought in because she brought on team and she invested well, I guess it was 40,000 because she invested $5,000 in in team support. And that netted an additional $35,000 in profits. So that's the case study we're diving into today. I want to know first your current team as it stands right now. Heather, you're 9 team members, can you from a very high level view walk us through who they are and what roles they each have.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that we'll have to get into this later on. But please don't hear nine team members and think like, whoa, I'll never be there because I started with just the one. And so I would say my right hand girl who is 100%. I was just telling Ellen before you hit the record button. She is the left side of my brain. She is so numbers oriented and all the strengths that I have, she has weaknesses and vice versa. And so I'm incredibly grateful for her. Her name is Alyssa and she is my COO chief operating officer. She manages the entire team. She runs the asana. She helps me with making sure we're hitting our marketing goals working on our budget, all the nitty gritty of the big picture business stuff. She's in The boat with me.
And then I've got Mary who helps me. She manages our Instagram at large, essentially. And then we have Tiffany, who helps me out a lot with my Modere and affiliate sales. And also she assists Alyssa in the email answering department with our brand relationships. Then we have Holly who helps me out with the podcast predominantly, like, if there's a question about Healthy by Heather brown podcast, it's going through Holly, she submits to our team and the editing process everything. Then we also have Lindsey that is my full time nanny and one of my best friends, she picks up the boys from school and keeps them till three o'clock on the days that I am working. And then I also have a local assistant who handles just returns and helps me with photography when needed. If I'm shooting a real she makes sure my lighting is right. She definitely is like a jack of all trades. I'm so thankful for her. Oh, and then I do have another team member who works very part time role. But she just helps me with building graphics and camera designs and things that we need to turn around quickly for LTK or what have you. And then that we have one of the person that assists with just brands and DM communication with the companies that we work with.
Like to know it, by the way is LTK, right?
Yes, it is. That's old school, sorry, they go by LTK now.
Okay, good to know. And basically, if you're not familiar with the blogging world, it's typically when you know, when you see a blogger wearing something you love or maybe something in their kitchen, a product they might recommend, you can just typically click on it, and it will take you straight to purchasing the item. And of course, they get an affiliate kickback for referring you to the item. So that's really interesting to hear the different roles that each of them play. And I'm really glad Heather, that you actually brought up the two members of your team who may not necessarily work in the business all the time, but support your life to allow you to have the capacity to work in your business. I think it's so important for entrepreneurs, especially women to hear that it's okay to hire help not just in your business, but also in your personal life. I'm curious out of these nine people, how many are full time versus part time? And and are they all employees? Or are most of them contractors like what is what does that structure look like?
Yeah, absolutely. So Alyssa, that I was talking about that as my right hand gal, she is full time sometimes bless her heart, if we have a big project or deadline coming up, she's sometimes over 40 hours, they are all independent contractors. And Lindsey that does not childcare, she might end up working 10 hours one week, but then 20 Another like if I'm having to go out of town for something just helping my husband at work, and then staying overnight and all those things. But there are only two full time employees that work anywhere from 35 to 40 hours a week. And then the other girls range anywhere from five some weeks to up to 25. And the main reason that I think that that has become our structure is because when I started with interns, a lot of times it was college students in the beginning. And now I'm finding that I'm getting a lot more moms and so they want to be able to work while their kids are at school or, you know, just in different pockets of their week that they have where their kids are not around as much.
That makes sense. Just to make sure I understood you clearly the two that are full time when you said their employees. Did you mean that they are W2 employees or they're still independent contractors?
So great question, Ellen. They are still everyone is an independent contractor.
Okay, awesome. Just wanted to make sure I understood your structure clearly. So that's really cool to see again how expansive your team is today. But if we go back and look at the beginning of this case study when you made your very first hire, tell us when did you realize I need to make a hire? And who was that first hire and how did you find them? What were their tasks that they started with? Like give us kind of like the whole behind the scenes of that very first crucial support role?
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that what's so wild is when you look at how long I've been doing this now, when I first launched a blog, it literally was a blog. It was a WordPress blog. And that was pretty much all I had to maintain. I uploaded to Blogspot at the time now I'm on WordPress. And then that was pretty much it. And then it became okay, well now Facebook is a thing. Okay, well now Pinterest is a thing. Okay, well, now Twitter is a thing. And then it got to the point where I was like, Well now there's Instagram and so then you're realizing Okay, so I'm supposed to keep up with my Amazon affiliate links, my LTK affiliate links. I'm supposed to be growing an email list, a Pinterest, a Twitter, a Facebook, and then this was even before Instagram stories were a thing. Golly, that's a toll on base. I just so mylifewellloved.com I would say that I got my big break in the blogging industry when Pinterest came around because I was an early adopter of Pinterest.
So I had a recipe go viral. And because it's chicken and spinach pasta bag if you want to look it up, it's delicious. But I started to realize is okay, like, there are so many things just falling off my plate. And I'm realizing that, number one, I'm not able to serve the business and the way that I think that I could serve it and grow it, number one. Number two, at this point, I was like Eric, and I've been married for a few years, we know we want to have kids soon. I don't want to spend all my time where I'm just constantly behind, I can't keep up with the emails. I can't keep up with the social media. I can't keep up with the blog posts and the SEO and all the things that go into it. And I think Ellen, what's so crazy is when people don't work in this space like you and I do. They're just like, oh, you're a blogger have fun. And I'm like, No, I'm just another entrepreneur, I truly, I still am like doing the taxes. I'm still invoicing, I'm still, you know, all those SEO things that are just mind blowing to people. But I'm having to wear 20 hats in one day versus you go to your job, and you put on your one hat of I am a customer service rep. So once I realized I can't keep up anymore, that was my tipping point of like, okay, something's gotta give, because I'm just going to quit, because this is impossible for one person to do alone, successfully from a whole health perspective.
That's such a great point. You know, there are certain periods of your of your life where certain things take priority over others. But to your point, none of it is sustainable at 100% in all lanes all at once. So you realize you were super time strapped things were falling through the gaps. And you decided to make your first hire who wasn't? What was the role for? Where did you find them? And why this role first?
Yeah, absolutely. So at the time, I thought, Okay, well, I know, I'm only making, you know, maybe 1000 or $2,000 a month right now, and I am doing this very part time. So how do I just get someone that can help me when I need to answer an email or someone who can just help me pull links or someone who can just help me schedule posts on Instagram or Facebook. And so I didn't know where else to turn. And I didn't, I didn't have any people in my circle at that point who were also entrepreneurs or bloggers. So I went back to the only place I know to go to which is Samford University. That's where me and my husband met. That's where he graduated from. It's here in Birmingham, Alabama. And I went to my prior professor who ran the Journalism and Mass Communication department and I said, Hey, I'm looking to hire an intern.
I had an if there's one piece of advice I can give anyone that is listening to this, if you are in college still or even if you're out of it, is take the internships as much as you can. And as many different businesses as possible, get your feet wet, learn all the things I did an internship or to or had an internship and a job every semester I was in college, because that's what how you learn what you don't like, and you do like, so I went back to him and I was like, listen, I know you offered me internships. I don't have a budget. Can I list that? I'm looking for an intern on the Samford portal? Or can I send it out through the email listserv? And he said, Yes, of course. He said, Just send me Oh, my gosh, what did he say? He said something like, send me what you're looking for right of pay, or if it's unpaid, the amount of hours and you know, like two or three other things.
And I was like, Oh, right. Now I had to figure those things out. Like, okay, so I went back and just started brainstorming, you know, what do I like, what do I not like? What am I looking to hire for? He sent out that email that I was looking for an intern to help me with social media, and I immediately got a bite. And so then I thought, oh, right now I had to interview her. I've never conducted an interview before. So then I was like, Okay, I gotta figure out an interview this girl so I started brainstorming questions. We met I can't remember was that Sanford are at a coffee shop here in Birmingham called Oh, Henry's. And I interviewed her and offered a job to her on the spot. And then she started with me. And then I was like, oh, right now I gotta teach her how to know what to do. So did you ever have an any interns Ellen?
Yeah, so fun, fun story. Our current Podcast Producer, Sabrina and content manager who's a full time employee started out as an intern for our business when she was in college. And it was actually of her own volition that that came to be because she approached me after I guess, lectured at a class that she was in and asked if there were any internship opportunities. And then we actually have another intern that's working with us right now. So shout out to Danielle, who's helping edit our YouTube content. So we'll be working on this interview. And she also reached out to me, she goes to school in San Diego but found us you know, through Google and reached out and asked if we had an internship opportunity, so I couldn't agree more.
I think internships are such an amazing place to build relationships and to your point to explore different facets of a business and understand what you like and don't like and my first full time job out of college was also formed from an internship relationship that I created in college so Yes, all the nodding heads in agreement. As you're talking, I am curious, you said, you know, you went to this professor and said, I don't have a budget. But I'd like to provide experience right to the students, when you actually invested $5,000, to see that $35,000 in profit that 45% gain in your revenue? Where did that $5,000 come into play? Like, at what point did you actually start investing dollars, I guess, into your team?
Yeah. So I would say that I had the first intern, and then a second intern. And then I finally got to about my third or fourth intern. And I thought this girl is really worth keeping on. And so I said to her, Hey, I am now seeing that you look like a really great fit for me. And I will say, I usually make my intern sign an agreement that they'll stay on with me for a minimum of either three or six months. And I've always been told, you gotta hire fast, you gotta fire fast. So like, we get started in that first two to four weeks, and it's just not a good fit. I'm like, Hey, thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it. This isn't a great fit for me. But I'm gonna have to ask you to basically go ahead and exit. And so I've learned to hire fast, fire fast.
And when you find someone, it's really great. I want to extend the internship longer, because now we do have a great working relationship. You know how I work, we can bounce ideas back and forth really easily. And so I would say was probably my third or fourth intern where I asked her to stay on. And then Ellen, this was really eye opening moment for me too. But I had my probably my fourth intern looked at me in the as one day and she said, Heather, this is too much work for just me and you to do. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that was such a lightbulb moment for me that this little college student was able to see it. But it was almost like I had these limited beliefs of I only need the one person. And so I was like, okay, she's probably right. But I didn't know anything else than intern.
So I said, Okay, well, you help me find one of your friends. And so she posted in her Facebook sorority group, I got my second one on. And then once I had two, three interns, I was like, Okay, I cannot operate anymore with a two to three. So then that's when I saw one that was really rising up and above the other, she had started helping me out with Facebook and Pinterest scheduling, that is Alyssa, that you now know is on my team. And she has worked her way up from working as an intern all the way up to hey, I can afford to start you at $10 an hour. And then we've moved up from there. And then you know, now I even have payment increased structures, where if they're helping me with brands, then they can get a percentage of how many deals they close. So really trying to be wise and the way that I'm investing in my team.
And you ask what I have them get started with a lot. We really look for the holes and how we need to fill them at the time. So usually, I feel like a great low level place for them to start is just scheduling the tweets, the Facebook posts, the Pinterest pins and tailwind or what have you. And then once they prove to me that they're trustworthy, then I feel like I can trust them with more passwords and more ways to log in and help me just manage the sheer amount of volume of direct messages and things that come into my inbox day in and day out.
Absolutely. So you're starting them off with the repetitive tasks that a process essentially can solve, right? Like if you create a process or a system, someone can replicate, duplicate the actual task. And then it seems like most of these roles kind of fall within fulfillment. But you did mention that there is this, you know, pay structure that you've since introduced into your business where if your team members are helping close certain deals that they're getting a percentage of the pay. So at what point did you hire, or allow someone to kind of move from the fulfillment department into more of marketing and sales? How did that transition happen?
Yeah, so it basically I'll just give you a little background. So we're talking specifically in this case study about 2018. And so I was investing about $1,000 monthly at that time and paying team members, I didn't start out with a team of 10, like I said, that would just been completely paralyzing just to figure out payroll and expenses and how to tell them what to do and implement it. So again, I just want to encourage you start with just one person working part time and see if you have that synergy like we talked about, then from January 2018 to July 2018. So seven months without a team, my total revenue was $20,000, less than the total revenue from August 2018 to December 2018. So just five months with a team. And then I figured out if I continued with a team based on the average revenue earning each month, January and July, my projected take home would have been $40,000 less than what it ended up being for the year. So when you deduct that $5,000 I initially invested with that team member that is where my earnings increase for the $35,000 a year.
And so I think that what is incredibly mind blowing to me is that having someone give me the mental freedom and the mental space to be able to not be chained to my computer all the Time and to be able to be with my babies that aren't just my business baby and to be able to have the freedom and the flexibility was just incredible for me. So to give that background now, Ellen, back to what was your question? Sorry, I just blanked?
No, you're totally fine. I really am glad you gave that context. So just to recap, basically, that year, the first half of the year, you operated without a team, it was just you, then in the last five months of the year, you invested $1,000 a month, so five grand total for the remainder of that year. And during those five months that you started bringing on, well, just that one person at the time Alyssa, right? You were able to increase your revenue 40,000 More than you would have projected to earn if you had not brought on Alyssa. But then of course, subtracting the $5,000 you invested in hiring her, it was 35,000 net profit. Okay, cool. So we're on the same page there. Because when you brought in a list, I'm assuming those those first five months that you had a team member, you were doing mostly or delegating mostly fulfillment tasks, right, the things that we talked about, like repetitive things. At what point did you transition? Any team member, whether it was Alyssa or someone else into more of that marketing sales role, where they were actually starting to close deals for you and able to earn a commission on the deals they were earning for you?
Yes. So I will say I feel like I kind of had my hand force in this. And a lot of times, I think that's the biggest hang up that entrepreneurs have when they first start hiring people as you just feel unsure of how can I ever get there, I can't trust anyone with my baby and is scary and intimidating. So we'll talk about this later on. But I have so many things in place now where they have them sign agreements when they first get started with me. So I know I'm protected also with these people have my logins.
But so I was pregnant with Finn my second little boy. And I just thought what am I going to do because before when Layton was born, I had PPD so postpartum depression for those that are unfamiliar. And I literally was just not myself, I was down and out for six weeks, my daughter told me you're not allowed to walk to the mailbox or further for six weeks, like you have to sit down on the couch on a doughnut, like I had a horrendous delivery. And back then though there was not Instagram stories. So my fear was, well, what am I going to do when I can't show up every day again, on my Instagram Stories, if something like that happens, the second baby, and I knew I wanted to maternity leave, which is a whole thing when you're your own boss. So I just said to Alyssa, listen, I need to know if you're all in or if you're out. Like I cannot spend the amount of time and effort and money and resources to teach you everything that I know and get you ready to take on my life. Oh love while I go on maternity leave unless I know you're bought in like I need to know you're here. You're in it with me. And so we had those hard conversations.
And she is a literal Rockstar. She loves the Lord. I trust her implicitly she is I always joke. She's my work wife and Eric knows that my husband. But she basically we were on the phone for hours a day. I mean, she was nannying. So at the time, part time and I was still working part time doing pure Barre and helping a real estate agent marketing. And it would be like, I'm going in between helping with showings, and I'm on the phone with her. And she's like, Hey, we got an email from XYZ brand. they're proposing $2,000 from Instagram and feed, how do I respond? And I'd be like, Okay, say, Dear so and so thank you so much for your interest in partnering mylifewellloved.com Our current rate for that is $4,000. But if you're willing to do don't do that, and just like worked her through every single email, the deliverables, what to look for in contracts, every single thing.
And I mean, we did this day in and day out, because so by the time I left to go on maternity leave, it was like, she just knew how my brain was going to work. Because I just been in our ear all day, every day. Now that thank god, there's Voxer. So we get to just voxer all the time back then. But at the time, we were on the phone, just back and forth. And I think that it really takes a special person, especially when you have a small business like what you and I have and it affects your your family's way of life. It affects so many things outside of just like I show up to work. Like if I worked at a dentist office, you really have to have that synergy with that person be able to trust them. And I always told her there's no stupid question how could you know my brain? You can't. So we're gonna have to get you as close as we can before this baby gets here.
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I would tend to agree that it really takes that hands on job shadowing, essentially, to for someone to really learn, like you said, not just the process, but like how your brain uniquely thinks about that and how to duplicate that. So that's really interesting to hear how that came to be how she started, you know, negotiating deals, I'm curious, the timeframe that we're talking about where you invested $5,000, in Alyssa, and your company generated an additional $40,000 in revenue was that before or after Alyssa started being in the inbox negotiating with brands.
So I mean, obviously a spread out over amount of time, but I had the baby in August, and she was already starting to do a lot more pitching and follow ups than I had been able to do in the past. So I even feel like our system of keeping our relationships up to the standard that I have. It was like, well, she was able to do it so much better, because in my mind, I'd be like, Okay, well, I'm sitting down at 10 o'clock at night, and I'm pregnant, I'm exhausted, I have time to get five emails out today. Whereas her Asana task is gonna roll around that was like, pitch 50 brands by the end of the week, then, you know, she's gonna make it happen, because it's almost like she was forced to do the work that I knew that I should, but I didn't have the bandwidth the time to do if that makes sense.
Right, right. No, it's It's not like, Oh, if I have capacity, it's like, you've carved out the time and the role for someone to actually follow through consistently on that. That's interesting. Okay. So you think then that the majority of that increased revenue just came from increasing the capacity of how many pitches you guys were sending out and how many you were able to respond to essentially, that's where that increase in revenue was driven from just so I understand correctly.
I do believe that. And then I also think, like I said, the betterment of the nurturing of the relationship. Whereas before, I might have pitched you like, literally, my old system was so broken, where I'd be like, well, last February, I worked with these eight brands. So I'm gonna pitch those eight brands, again, the following January, before that February, and then just maybe 20 random ones, if I can throughout the week. Whereas she was saying, like, no, no, what I've learned, and she actually while she was doing her internship for me, she was also getting her master's and business. And so to me, it was incredible to have systems that she could bring into my life that I'm like I said, I'm just not an organized person. I'm really not, she makes me look good. But I'm like, she had so many spreadsheets and systems that made us start being in contact with them more. Whereas I had kind of been flying by the seat of my pants. I was good at it when I did it. And I knew how to negotiate like nobody's business, and I'm a people person, but the systems is what really took us to the next level.
So talk to us a little bit about that retention cycle, because I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs ignore. You know, I've talked about this before. On the podcast, I've mentioned that it's much easier for us sometimes to focus on trying to acquire new customers and to keep our current ones happy. So you've talked about how you know retaining those relationships really drove increased revenue without having to start from scratch each time you sent a pitch. So what system did you and Alyssa develop together then, like, what did that follow up system look like? How often were you touching base with these brands that you had started relationships with or had worked with in the past?
Yeah, so it's, it's multi layered. I'm like, we could literally do an entire podcast on that. I'm like, she should come on with me and talk about it to get in the nitty gritty with you. But 100% She has a spreadsheet, and it's categorized by the types of brand if they're travel, or is it like a certain time of month that they like to work with us? Are they a holiday brand? And so then she knows what part of the spreadsheet to go through to follow up with and then we also know that In general, we want to come up with one new type of pitch every six weeks or so.
So, for example, like Mother's Day is coming up. So that was obvious, like this cycle, it's going to be, hey, we'd love to include your mother's a gift guide, you know, so on and so forth. Well, then if they write us back, and they say, like, Okay, thank you so much, we're gonna pass we don't have budget for this month, but we know that we'll get more advertising dollars for q2, then she goes in our separate spreadsheet where we're keeping up with our budget, and she writes down on that spreadsheet, reach back out to so and so. And then also, we have a really good system I think for I don't know, Ellen, have you ever experienced this, so many of our contacts turn over so much more than they did? Pre COVID to now.
So it feels like we are constantly on the hunt for email addresses again. So what we found works really well is that instead of just emailing and emailing and bouncing, we will finally go back over to Instagram, DMS that company and say, Hey, I've been emailing Cassie at Sugarplum.com. And I haven't heard a response in a while is she still with you guys. And then I usually times though they will right back at that point, I oh my gosh, no, she left a few months ago, here's the new contact for you to reach out to. So we've really started to get smarter about the way that we bounced back and forth between DM and email as well. Because a lot of times we land in spam or the promotions folder. And so we just want to be wise about that system. But then we also have this backlog of they said not to talk to him again until this quarter.
Or they said that they're saving all their budget for q4. And so it's almost like by the time we get to the next month, we turn the page and we're like, Okay, here's the top 10 hot leads that we've been talking to they told us to reach out here. And then we're gonna go through, we have a whole system on Instagram where like if I see a brand I want to work with a send it to a DM we have titled brands to contact and then Alyssa and her assistant are in there. So then they'll go and message that brand and be like, hey, you know, we've been using bah blah, if I give them context for two years, we love you guys. We'd love to connect with you about doing a campaign. Who can we email. So then all those people are getting filtered through. So it really has. I mean, it blows my mind the level of organization and the system. She has ended around it now. But essentially, she has one brand day a week where she is like mass pitching. She's tweaking slightly to that brand offering the new thing Oh, that in like Mother's Day, so let me offer them right now we're running a special on tick tock and Instagram rules packages, would you be interested in that instead? And then she's running through that. And then she'll catch them as they come in the rest of the week. But Tuesday's the big brand day for us.
Oh, this is so fascinating. But I think it really just reconfirms this overall theme that I've been talking about this year that sometimes you have to take the initiative to present someone directly with a solution, right? So many people are afraid of pitching. But really, it's it's so key that you take the initiative to say, Hey, I think this would be a good fit for you. And here's why. Like I've done the research on your behalf. And I'm saving you the time of having to look through all the available options, and instead coming to you with a very clear and direct ask. And let's continue that conversation from there. So like you said, we could have an entire conversation around pitching. But I do want to further look at the the piece where you said in your cadence with these brands and the follow up that retention cycle, you try to send them something new every six weeks is every single six week check in point give or take always related to an A pitch a new ask or a new package that you're offering? Or do you sometimes check in just to share something that isn't related to trying to pitch a new campaign?
The only thing that I will say that we do different is a lot of times we might just say like, Hey, it's a new month. It's It's May here at my life I loved we're getting ready for Finn's graduation next Thursday and lighten you know, get somewhat school two weeks later, we're traveling to this place and we just wanted to check in and see what your plans are for the summer. Do you have any upcoming campaigns that we would be a great tie in for we love working with you last time on XYZ project. So just like touching base, essentially. And then also we'll do were like, let's say that I did an Instagram post last week. And we're like, oh, we mentioned so and so and so and so in there that we haven't worked with now or talk to in six or seven weeks. So we're going to email that brand and be like, here's a link to an organic shout out we did just wanna make sure you saw it. We love working with you guys just wanted to see if you have anything new or exciting coming up we should know about support your brand and so really just being creative, but then also leaning back on the foundations like you said of those cycles of all the marketing things that we all know to do. But it's almost like unless you have that like reminder popping up in Asana or your phone or whatever calendar system use. It's hard to just remember to do it all the time.
100% and I think this is a great takeaway for anyone listening whether or not you work in media like Heather and I do or you have a completely a different business model with service based clients or even if your E commerce and you sell physical products, I think just thinking about how can you build a follow up schedule into your routines? And how do you figure out how you're going to do that, whether it's more mass automated through email marketing, or whether it is that personal touch base, but making sure like Heather is, is demonstrating that you can stay top of mind on a very regular interval. And I love Heather that when you do those more like nurture based check ins, how you actually include pieces of your personal life, I love that you do that, because people often forget, especially when they're working in our space, and they're pitching brands or bigger corporations that can easily feel like you're talking to an entity rather than a person. But really, it's the person on the other side of the screen that is advocating for you to their team that they should spend their ad dollars with you. So I love that you're allowing them a peek into who you are as a person outside of work, and also trying to get to know that side of them too.
Yes. And I think that that goes back so much, Ellen to no matter what business you're in, people are always going to know like and trust someone that they feel as authentic and being real and true to who they are. And so a lot of times brands do come to us. And when we're getting pitched at work with a brand. They're saying, I stumbled across your Instagram. And I just thought it was so happy. You look so joyful, like our brand wants that type of face attached to it. So how can we find something to do together. And so I think that just don't forget, even though you're a brand and you're an entrepreneur, people want to connect with people. And that's why tik tok and Instagram are so popular. Because you do get to see the little nuances about people, they want to know if you're a deep thinker, or if you're really thoughtful, or if you're really intelligent, and you get to share tidbits that you find interesting, like don't just settle for the status quo go above and beyond because it stands out to brands, and it sends out to your followers every time.
Great advice. I want to go back real quick to this point that you made earlier about your interns because I feel like that's the part of your team building that's most interesting to me in this case study, because I don't think any of our past guests who have come on to talk about team building or how they've grown their business, through their team necessarily leverage internships to the level that you do. So you mentioned that when you bring on interns, typically they're staying with you for a term of three to six months. And then some of them obviously, you have hired on as paid staff, once they've kind of I guess, graduated their internship these days, are you still bringing on a new intern like every term or every, you know, school year? And is it always with the intention that if they're a great culture fit and a great role fit that they have the opportunity to receive a paid job offer after? Or is it kind of not necessarily stated as an intention at the front end? But you're, you know, maybe making those offers, when it makes sense to like, how does your thought process around the internship role play in your business today and 2023?
Yeah, so that's a really great point that you brought up, because I do think that back in, I would say, you know, 2019 2020 2021, even, that was my intention, like, I want to bring on an intern every three to six months. And if they're great, I want to hire them on. And I would even say that upfront a lot of times, and I ended up actually having so many great interns that I was like, I don't have the I don't want to get out over my skis and hire too many people. So then I did have to scale back and be like, Okay, I now have, well, it's kind of crazy. I'm thinking about it. 1234, 4 of the ladies on my team that worked for me, they're part time or full time now started out as interns and they're still here years later. So it's super cool.
And so I quote this in my course about team building. But as I having a team who fully believes in support, your mission is life changing, and where you see true growth and success. And I still fully believe in that. Now I will say in 2022 and 2023, I feel like we have slowed down a little bit just because we want to be mindful of where the economy is going. And we know that there are things that have been said by, you know, people at JP Morgan and really, you know, high UPS about potentially what the economy could look like. So we have slowed our hiring for sure. And I would say that I'm not actively looking for interns right now because I'm having to almost like box in a little bit more and just be precautious overall with just how we're spending our time and resources because even though the interns start out for free, I'm still having to pay my other employees to train them and bring them under their wing. So I'm hoping that next year we can get back to bringing back on interns and and be a little less cautious, I guess, or conservative in the market.
But yeah, that's kind of where we're at right now. But I'm super thankful for the for the women that started as interns and I still go back to Samford, sometimes when I'm looking for an intern, or what I've been doing more recently is posting in Facebook groups, either in my neighborhood or even on my Instagram stories like saying, if you're interested, please don't DM me, you don't have to be local or you do whatever the case is, at that time, please fill out this Google Form to apply. And then that way, it allows me to get to know a little bit more of a snapshot of who they are, if they can fill the hole I have. And then also, you know, I'll start out by saying it's unpaid. But if I see someone that I'm like, ooh, actually, like, we need a graphic designer, and this girl has that skill, then I'll hire her spot on from that form.
That's amazing. So essentially, the the people who kind of start in this unpaid internship roles are typically, I guess, not specialized to a specific skill set like graphic design, they're kind of coming on as a blank slate, and you are investing the time and the resources to train them in a, I'm assuming a wide variety of skill sets. And then the ones who are good fit culturally may stay on as as paid, paid team members, I love that half your team started out as an intern, I really do think that's so unique. And I hope this serves as inspiration for others listening, who maybe have not ever tried that route of, you know, bringing on an intern that then grows into a paid team member. But I mean, it's worked really well, for our business as well.
And so I can definitely see the merit in that, I do want to ask you a hot take on this, because you brought up a great point that even if in those first few months, the intern may not necessarily be adding to your budget expenses, you are still having to pay for your current team's labor and time to train them. And if the average intern, let's say stays three to six months and doesn't transition into being a paid team member, all the essentially the time the money that you've invested in them kind of goes away once they leave your business, right? So if you're playing devil's advocate here, someone on the outside listening in might think, well, that kind of is not that different from if you actually did hire a paid team member, train them, and then they left her company, it kind of models that high turnover rate. So my hot take question for you is knowing that there is going to be that high turnover built into this model. Why choose to still go with interns, versus just hiring paid staff members out right up front?
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think for me, there's a lot of women and moms in my community that I know, either are doing MLMs, or they are wanting to become a blogger, or those type of things. And I will say that I think probably at least five of my interns that have come through have gone on to become bloggers themselves, or they were baby bloggers, and now they're able to monetize. And so to me, it feels like a little bit of a way that I can give back to my community and to pour into an invest in women who want to be entrepreneurs, and or just want to invest in learning more for their family bettering their side hustle income. And so to me, it's something that I love coaching women in social media and in blogging, and so it provides a way for me to get to scratch that itch. But also in the past, I have not had the bandwidth to offer. Like professional like I took away my consulting option for a while I brought it back in the past year. But that was my outlet to get to still, like hear what questions people were having. And still to stay up on like, what are the trends are wondering about how can I still serve that audience? So that's my hot take. But I would love to hear your thoughts on that. What do you think Ellen?
Oh, well, I love that your hot take is it's a vehicle for mentorship. That's such a beautiful perspective. For me, I think intern, I think it's a personal thing for me, because I got my start in my career as an intern I, I think there's just so much value and getting real practice in a business in and getting to do things that you can't learn in a textbook. So I realized for you, as your business has evolved, some of your internship roles have gone to, like you said mothers in your community who may not necessarily be in that college stage of business, or sorry, college stage of life is what I meant. But for us, the interns that we've hired on our staff, and granted, there's only been two so far, but they've have both been college students at the time that they were, you know, hired. And even with our current intern, actually, we, you know, offer us a paid stipend now, in addition to the credit hours that they earned through their college. So it looks a little bit different these days for us, but I just I feel the same as you had there. It's it's such an amazing way to mentor and pour into someone who's at this stage in their life where their careers just starting potentially, and I think it's such a beautiful thing to see the transformation and personal growth that someone goes into over their time working with you beyond just professional growth, you know?
Yes, yes. 100% agree. Well, Ellen, one thing that I I've really enjoyed it. So for those of you that don't know, I found Ellen through my friend Ashlyn Carter, who actually went to Samford with me that's on Ashlynn. And so Ellen, I've just been so impressed with how you have grown your business. And I just, I want to affirm you. And because I just listened to your income report and how you made the transition to now being on the media side, and it's a toll on base. So I'm really intrigued to keep listen to your podcasts as well. Because your training me so much about I'm really good at the media side. And you've been really good at the core side. So I'm starting to dabble more in courses. And I'm like, it is such an incredible, incredible service that you offer to other CEOs and entrepreneurs and women who want to become that. So thank you for doing that. Seriously
Oh, my gosh, thank you for the encouragement. That means the world. And I mean, that's why this podcast exists, right. And I'm so grateful to guests like you, Heather, because every single one of our guests are coming on and sharing a case study of like a real, a real time strategy, they've actually implemented in their own business and their vulnerability. I mean, you vulnerably showed up and said like, this is what I did. This was the result of my business here was the good parts, here are the parts that I struggled with. And not everyone's willing to give such a transparent, you know, look at what's happening in their own business, it's really easy to teach theory, it's a lot harder to like, pull back the curtain and be like in practice, this is what it looks like the good, the bad, and the ugly, right. So, so, so appreciative of people like you who are willing to come on and share that hindsight. So we don't all have to make the same mistakes to learn the same lessons.
To wrap up our case study today. So we talked about how when you started, you invested $5,000 total, because we were paying $1,000 a month for five months, and how that led to an increase in revenue. Fast forward to today. How much are you investing monthly in your team now? And how have you continued to see that correlation between, you know, investing in team and growth on revenue or profit side in your business?
Yeah, for sure. So Alyssa, and I were actually laughing at this, I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't imagine now like only $1,000 a month, I would say that we probably spend close ish to 10k a month and employee, but it's also our business model is so cyclical, like I don't know about for you yet. But q4 for bloggers and influencers is huge, like blow it out of the water. And most of the businesses that I work with are allotting most of their budget to q4. So I know we're going to be leaner in the front half of the year. And so I'm trying to capture buddy's hours. Like, again, because I said I want to be wise about this, where the economy is at right now. It's been really scary speaking about like your messages and your mess.
It's been really scary this year, because some of my big brand partners that were month after month, year after year, they have had to say like we still love you. But we've made budget cuts. And so we don't have the dollars anymore. So I've had to really be intentional with trying to warn my team and forecasting like I'm seeing that this year is probably not going to be as big as what we'd been in years past, we're probably going to start capping hours. And so we have had to do that we actually have implemented and I hope that this helps someone out there, where each Wednesday, my team members message me and Alyssa on Slack. They say, Hey, I'm at this many hours, I say these tasks are left on my Asana, which ones would you like for me to prioritize to stay under those hours. So we have had to be more like lean and more intentional on how those hours are spent now than I would ever really like to be. Because then I feel like I'm forced to be more in like the day to day almost like micromanaging space. But I also believe that it's been a really good lesson for me that even when things are more flush, and q4, and so forth, that we will all it has taught me lessons of like, well, maybe I was too loosey goosey before on how they spent their hours like maybe I should have been wiser in not just setting up the automatic Asana task to keep rolling but be like, is that actually beneficial for this week or this month? If it's not, then let's just pause it and pull it back a few weeks. So that's been a really intentional lesson I've had to learn. But I'm now I would say like, I think it was two years ago, we had an almost half a million dollar year. And I assume that this year will probably not be quite as close to that.
But who knows. I'm like I'm hustling hard. And like I said, that's why I'm really working on doing like the coursing in the consulting, too. Because as an entrepreneur, you always had to be willing to pivot. So I took away the consulting because I was like, I'm not even making enough money consulting to offset how much I can make. I spend that same time producing reels for a brand. But now I'm like, okay, the brands don't have the amount of revenue that they had before. So that are in my wheelhouse anyway with health. So I'm like, let me instead shift over here and try something different. And so it's going to do fulfilling work to me from a heart level. And so it's just been a really crazy and cool journey.
Wes and I'm really glad that you share that real time insight of how you are navigating those two changes. Because you know, we always hear that advice, like, make sure you stay flexible and pivot, but people don't always share like, What do you mean by that? Right. And so I really like the the practical ways that you are engaging your team in that conversation and and allowing them that what is it that ability to contribute to the conversation, say, Okay, I understand where we're headed. And I understand that q4, there might be more abundance, right for us to come into. But in the meantime, how do we prioritize and respect everyone's capacity for how much time they're allotted, and what they need to prioritize?
And I also really liked that you mentioned the diversification of income streams and knowing when to pull back on some things like opportunity costs, what you mentioned about how in the prime seasons of brain campaigns, it would it make sense for you to offer consulting, because it takes away right your time now with it, adding an income where budgets may be lacking. And so that's just such great wisdom. And I really hope that for everyone listening today, more than anything, that this conversation encourages you that hiring support, and investing in people will only have positive impact on your business, both from the bottom line perspective, but also from your own personal growth. And I, I hope that instead of looking at it as a cost to you that you truly do see it as as an investment. And I'm really glad that you're able to be our real life case study or guinea pig for that, Heather.
Your message is always your mess, you know? Yeah.
So Heather, to end our conversation, I would love for you to share with our listeners where they can continue to connect with you. And if they want to learn from you, especially as you're getting into the course world, like tell us what you're working on and where people should find you.
Yeah, absolutely. So like you mentioned earlier, I am a podcaster. So I'm sure Ellen, you can link all this stuff in the show notes. But I'm Healthy by Heather Prown podcast, and then you can find me on that Instagram handle. I'm like, spoiler alert. I don't know when this is going live, but I'm changing my website. It's mylifewellloved.com, but it's my life on Instagram right now, which I'm actually about to change over to be Healthy with Heather Brown. So if you hear this brand new it SPOILER ALERT that's coming. And if you guys go to mylifewellloved.com, you can see my team building courses available, where I walk you through practically what Ellen and I just talked about, we talked about the ways to determine what is required of you and you love required of you and you don't love what's not required of you, but you love what's not required of you and you don't love and then how to fill in those gaps with the people that you need to hire. We talked about NDAs The first thing you need to have your people when they start with you do, we talk about your vision casting, we have so many worksheets in there. So it's about a two hour course where me and my COO Alyssa that I mentioned talk through How did she come in? How does she help me? How can you get started with that one person? What does it practically look like? So I'd love for you guys to take that course. And Ellen, I'm gonna give them what did you say the discount code would be again? Was it CEO?
Yeah, let's do CEO. And because Heather and I both work in paid media, I always feel like it's important to disclaim that I do not receive a kickback for this. So this is really just Heather's generosity and giving you guys a discount if you want to get further support from her.
Yes. So if you use the discount code CEO, it'll give you 15% off of any of those webinars or workbooks. And then also obviously, like Ellen offer coaching, where you guys can come in. And I'll put the link to that also in the show notes. But at the end of the day, what I really just want women that are in the space to get is that and this is my big thing is whole person health, you have to be spiritually healthy, physically healthy, emotionally healthy. And so often as women, we get depleted in one of those areas. And I promise you, it affects every other area. So if you need help with that, I'm also offering a Healthy by Heather brown membership, where we address whole person health, getting to root causes, how to lower your stress, how you actually can retain weight, and cortisol and all these issues because of trauma that's locked in you that you don't even know is there. So I'm super, super thankful that the Lord has allowed me to connect with people like Ellen, who are helping expand my vision and versions of what I can do in this space. And you can too So be encouraged that Ellen are here for you. If you need anything, please DM me on Instagram. I'm an open book.
You're amazing. Heather, thank you so much for your time and sharing your heart with us. Like Heather mentioned, all the links mentioned will be below in the show notes. So just scroll down and click away. And Heather, thank you for your time,
Of course a joy to be with you again.
Hey, Ellen here. Thank you again for tuning in to cubicle to CEO. If you enjoyed today's episode, follow our show on Instagram at cubicle to CEO for more bonus content and hop on the last Tuesday of each month to watch our live after show with recent guests. If you want to support our podcast, text this episode link to a friend, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts or rate our show wherever you're listening right now, please make sure you also hit the Follow button on Apple. It looks like a plus sign. Or click Subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you don't miss out on our new episodes every Monday. And friends until next time, keep dreaming big
