Hey, it's your host Ellen Yin. Welcome back to another bonus episode of cubicle to CEO, the podcast where we ask successful founders the business questions you can't Google. Joining me today is my friend, Brittany Herzberg. Brittany is the SEO and Case Study copywriter service providers call when they want to show up as the answer to a Googled question. Since our Monday episodes on the podcast always feature a guest case study, I thought it would be useful for Brittany to walk us through her proven process for how to create a powerful case study of your own. You can actually do this in real time with us as you're listening to our conversation. Pull up a blank google doc on your laptop and let's get started.
Hello, friends, I am excited to welcome a loyal listener and a friend of mine to the podcast today for us to riff about a topic that I feel super passionate about. So I'll get to that in just a moment. But Brittany, welcome to our show.
Thank you for having me, I'm super excited to be able to talk about case studies.
We love, Brittany and I love nerding out about case studies. And one thing I so appreciate about Brittany is almost every episode that we post, like you are so good about giving feedback, you're so good about actually telling us hey, this was what I pulled out of this interview, or I really liked the angle that you approach this from or this particular thing stood out to me. And I can't tell you how much that means to me as a host. Because you know, a lot of times listeners are hearing our content, and maybe they're impacted by it for the positive. But we don't always get to hear that feedback. And so the fact that you take the time to reach out via email, or DMS to tell us how our content is impacting you is just so meaningful.
So thank you, thank you for saying that. I mean, as a host, I completely appreciate that, because it is nice to hear the feedback. So I'm always I'm always doing that. It's nice to hear it's appreciated.
You know, it's a great practice. And one of the best ways actually, this is like an underrated tip that I just wanted to throw up early for our listeners, because you do such a good job of this. I think it's really underrated how much gratitude can be a visibility strategy. And what I mean by that is, if for example, if you're listening to this podcast, and maybe there's a mentor on your radar that you really want to work with someday, or maybe there's someone you really admire that you would love to be a collaborative partner with. Or maybe there's a brand whose attention you want to get. One of the easiest ways to make yourself known in their world and their sphere of consciousness is to actually just be really consistent with the gratitude that you're sharing with them through different avenues, whether it is DMS or email or showing up to in person events that they're a part of, or hosting. That repetition, I think makes it so easy for someone to remember you and then start to pay attention to you and go oh, this is like someone we need to, you know, have further conversation with.
So anyways, just just an early tip I wanted to throw in there it was there anything you wanted to add, Brittany,
Just that it's funny that you kind of like interesting that you mentioned that because you're not the first one to mention it. And when people bring it up, I'm like, oh, yeah, other people don't think to do that. So it's for me, it comes from a very genuine place. And it's nice to be reminded that that's not how everyone else. So thank you.
Of course no, make yourself one of the rare ones always lead with gratitude. And for today's case, study conversation. So Brittany and I were riffing about this in DMS. And I thought it was such a great topic to bring to a bonus episode because as you know, if you're a loyal listener of our show, every Monday episode is a case study interview with a guest where they're bringing one specific strategy they've implemented successfully in their own business. And then they're walking us through the step by step of how they executed that strategy, what the financial impact or results were surrounding that strategy. And I realized, even though we talk about case studies in that manner, every single week, I don't think we've ever had a person come on the show, where the entire conversation was about how to actually create your own case study.
So I was like, Ooh, and Brittany is the queen of SEO optimized case studies, which if you don't know that term, it's just search engine optimization, meaning like, how do you rank higher in Google search results when someone's searching for a keyword or phrase related to the work that you do? And so I thought it could be kind of a fun experiment if we brought Brittany on. And she walked us through her case study framework so that you can almost treat this like a real time masterclass. And like literally pull out your laptop and as she's walking you through the framework, start filling in the blanks and you could potentially create your first or your most compelling case study within you know, the next 20-30 Minutes with Us.in real time, so how does that sound? Brittany? Should we dive right on in?
Let's dive I'm over here like
Antsy to get started. Alright, so tell us what what makes a compelling case study and start walking us through that framework of how someone can build theirs.
Yeah, so I'll start sharing a few things like all case studies, in my opinion ,that I see being really successful, really compelling, they need a few things. So I'll lay those out. And then we can dive into the nitty gritty details, but they definitely need some connection points. Because you're a human, we're humans, we're looking for other humans to connect with. Even if someone is buying a product, they need to connect with you, and you need to connect with the story. And you can do that in a few different ways. You can definitely do that by highlighting their quotes, you can certainly do that by including images, little details, like where does someone live? What do they like? Do they have like a certain phobia? Or do they have something that you know, they do, I don't know, annually, like they take an annual trip to wherever, what are those little details, because people are going to grab on to those latch onto those. And that's going to be a really good connection point.
A case study should also have links, because like you said, not only is it good for SEO and helping you show up online, where your people are looking for you and looking for the solution that you provide. But it's also great for your own brand, because you are showing up in all those places. So it's helping people it's helping your case study to actually perform well. And it's helping the people that you want to help anyway. And then we also need some numbers, whether that's stats, whether that's data, whether that's goals, yours even any kind of numbers you can throw in there, that's helpful, because we have people who are very analytical, and they're going to be looking for those things. We have the social bubbly ones like me, who are going to be looking for the images and the quotes. So we want to be able to kind of throw all these things in there. And then finally, we definitely need like a beginning, middle and end to help people actually navigate the case study. So we can dive into that much more with the framework. But before I go on, I know that was a lot.
No, that was super helpful. I was actually going to jump in and ask you about, you know, with these four components that you just mentioned, what would you say from a visual perspective, you had called out, for example, that quotes like you can pull out quotes, you can bold them, maybe put them in a different font. I've seen that before when reading case studies that sometimes like quotes are in like a thought bubble, or like they're just really bolded in front and center. But I'm curious some of those other examples of connection points that you mentioned, like someone's phobia, or someone's like annual thing that they do traditions? Do you see those visually pulled out in the same way that quotes are? Or are they kind of more just, I guess, dispersed throughout the text? Both?
Both are possible. Both are great. And specifically, as you're asking that question, one image was coming to mind. There was a case study that I wrote about someone who all of her social media accounts were hacked while she was on vacation with her family. Right. So that hits home and you're like, oh, my gosh, we immediately put ourselves in that situation. And you're like, This can't happen. There was a picture of her dancing around Disneyland with her daughter. So yeah, I mean, of course, right? They that brings that that moment to life, not just with words, but visually as well. Yeah. Plus, I mean, we both know Erin Perkins, I always think of her when I think of accessibility. And whenever you can bring something in in multiple formats, you're making it come to life, in whatever way, a person a reader, you know, that can work for them, whether it's visually whether it's with words, whether it's like with audio. So yeah...
No, that's actually really helpful, like making sure that I think your explanation helps it make more sense, like bringing context to the connection points you choose to pull out, right. So it's not super random, like you're reading about, I don't know how you helped detail someone's car and then like, you're pulling in this like, random phobia of spiders, and it's like, what does that have to do? Actually, maybe it does have to do something. It's like, if you don't clean your car, well, maybe there's hidden critters right in your backseat. So who knows. But that that's a really helpful example. I did have one more follow up question on one of the components you mentioned, which is links. How would you help someone discern the best links to include because, I mean, we can all get a little link happy, right? Like, let's just put everything in there. But you want to be strategic about what links you're including? And then also thinking through how your links are, I guess supporting your other content, like other pieces of content in your ecosystem? Are you doing backlinks to your own content? Can you just give a little bit more expansion on that point?
Certainly. And this is definitely something that comes up whether I'm helping people write their own case studies or if I'm writing them for someone. This is a very interesting topic because most people are like, I only want to link to my stuff. I just want to keep it in my world. And it's like, okay, let's explore this possibility of maybe even let me see if I can bring this example to life. If I want to write about my client who is a copywriter who learned to write case studies, this is very meta, but just hold with me,
I would want to be able to link out to her work, because she took my program, she worked with me, she learned my framework, and you know, the things that I teach. Now she's out there doing her own thing in the world, I'm really proud of her. And that gives, you know, credibility that lends credibility to what I do, and what I teach and how I show people what to do. So I would want to link out to her stuff, I would want to if I interviewed her on my podcast link out to that episode, I would want to link out even to her social media, because I can't tell you the number of times I'm sure this happened as you as well. You go through a program or you work with a person, and somebody else sees your testimonial or sees that you've worked with them. And instantly it's like, Alright, I need the 411 What actually happened, what was this experience. So the case study allows you to actually pull that out of the DMS. But also you can help that person navigate to the person being featured in the case study, so that they can still go ask those questions and get that one to one like, alright, spill the tea, what was up?
No, that's so smart. And actually, that's a interesting other underrated visibility tip that I think was first brought up in my interview with Laura Belgray, who some of you may know as talking shrimp, you know, with with her newsletters and whatnot. But it was funny, because I can't remember which program she said she was featured as a testimonial for but she got like so much visibility from being on that sales page that you know, whoever the person who created the program was driving so much traffic to and so people would like come into her world through this random testimonial, you know, and I've seen that happen totally for me to where like, if I've been a testimonial on someone else's program that I get a lot of DMS exactly what you said like, Wait, tell me the real, like, what was your real experience? I'm like, No, that was my real experience. I wouldn't want to like create like a false image of what my experience was obviously, in sharing that as a testimonial on someone else's page. But it's always great to be able to dig a little deeper and ask like some of the questions that you know, a three sentence testimonial can't necessarily capture.
So all excellent points. Thank you for clarifying that piece. And let's talk about like you had mentioned beginning middle end. So like if we're starting right from the beginning, what is that framework? What is the first thing that we've got to put in this case study?
First of all, you have to start with the person who is it that you want to feature and this can trip up some people I would say about 75% of the time when clients come to the door, or if I have someone come into the program, they already have a rough idea of who they want to feature, they might want to just finalize it or kind of check it and be like is this really are my you know, is my train of thought on the right track. So the way that I help people navigate this is you want to help them choose someone that either is bringing your framework to life, they're like living breathing proof of this, and I just read a case study last week, that was this. This was her framework. And she's like, this person is like the walking, talking breathing example of this. And I was like, perfect. So that was the angle that we took.
It could also just be someone like me, who is out there evangelizing about your program anyway? Or maybe I haven't even taken your program. But I know that you're amazing at what you do. I'm blabbing about you anyway. Pull me in, highlight me as a case study, these people are going to give you amazing answers. Not necessarily tooting my own horn, but like those people, they just like rave about you. They have the best one liners, they bring things to life. They're examples and analogies are just on point. So that's another thing. Yeah. The other thing could be their story is just really kind of dramatic. Maybe they had all of their social media profiles hacked. Maybe they were battling breast cancer, maybe they were, you know, insert other examples. So whatever that might be for that person for that story. It might just be like I said, really dramatic, very, like breathtaking.
I love the different like clues almost that you've laid out for listeners to think about who they might be able to pull into for the case study. So like, as they're actually sitting at their laptop, perhaps writing this in real time as they're listening to a how do they open the case study? Like if they've selected their person that they want to feature? Is it more biographical in nature? Like Are we starting with something like Brittany Herzberg is a you know, SEO case study writer and da da da? Or is it more like you open with a story or you opening with a quote, like help them visualize what they should be writing right now?
Yeah, all of those would be good examples. The other thing I want to back up and make sure that I mentioned before I go too far, these people also might have really good data. They might have like big numbers, whether that's income or people coming in the door. So that's another example. But to get your case study started to actually open it up. I use my framework. It's called the PET framework. And Brenna McGowan helped me name this because she was like, Oh, this is what it is. I was like, Oh my gosh, I have a cute name, I have a dog I'm so about this. Plus, it's just me like being fun as part of like my brand and how I show up in the world. So it just made perfect sense.
So to break that down, P is for problem. It's the before it's where they were stuck. It's the quote unquote, pain point. Where were they blocked? And why did they start looking for solutions? Why are they suddenly open to solutions? So when I start with a case study, I might start with that problem. I might start usually I start with the story anyway. But I it's like, what moment am I dropping them into. So you want to bring that to life. Also, early on, you kind of want to point out, this is where we're going. So this is where we're at. But also, this is where we're going. And that can be a little challenging to do in a few sentences. But the more you do it, the easier it will become for you. And definitely starting with that, like here was the brick wall they ran into, and then leading into, like, they found me this way. And they decided to work with me because of this thing. That's the beginning of it.
Do you have a concrete example in front of you that you could maybe even read out loud on the podcast right now of like an opening line or an opening few sentences to kind of give people an example.
Okay, here we go. I've got one. This is about the Mind Shift podcast. And it was for Leah Bryant. Darrell got 16 plus hours of his life back each month, when he hired the best producer for the mind shift podcast, Leah Bryant, when Darrell's executive assistant asked him on a random Tuesday why he was still editing his own podcast, 'because' was his best response. All my parents will totally resonate with that on a deep soul level. While that argument does hold some sway with our toddlers, it's not helping your business at all. And that's exactly what Darrell learned when he took things a little too far.
Hmm. I love that you pulled in like, an identity very subtly, like that is the answer. Because right, it's something that will really resonate with parents. I'm just curious, why call out that identity like was this case study like the person that it was created for this Podcast Producer? Do they primarily work with parents? Or was that just one of Darrell's identities that you thought might be relevant to, to pull into that opener?
That's a good question. And I actually pulled it in because of Leah, the business owner, the guide, if you will, through the case study, she is a toddler mom. So I'm actually friends with her. So this is one of the themes that I hear. And one of the threads I hear a lot in her Voxer conversations. And so I knew that that would speak largely to her personality and her life. But also, yes, probably some of the clients that are going to come in the door or people who just want to be in her world? That's a very good question. And I'm so happy you picked up on that.
Yeah no, that's so interesting. So you're kind of starting to, like reveal a little bit about the guide, as you call it, or the person who is representing the business that the service or product is being provided from. Okay, very interesting. So P problem, we've illuminated the problem, if I guess we can carry on with this case study, or you can pull in other examples as we go. But like in this case, you've highlighted that Darrrell is editing his own podcast and doesn't really have a good reason for why he's still doing that. So then what is the E in your pet framework stand for?
Yeah, the E is for experience. So what was that during what was the actual experience like working with this service provider or even like using this product, if we want to tie that in as well, because I know some of your audience members, some people are service providers, some people are product based. And this totally works for either. But we want to bring that to life. And this is a great moment, especially if you are a service provider, or even even an ecommerce provider, product based business, you can demonstrate your framework, you can demonstrate your product and how it actually helps someone in their day to day life. We want to bring those moments to life.
And this is something I was reminded of this yesterday, I love being interviewed because people are they shine the light on things that we just kind of forget, because we're so in our work all the time. So one of the things that I've realized this year by working with other people and having them highlight this is that I very delicately straddle the line between personality driven copy and keyword driven copy. Because you will read some things where they're bone dry, they're boring, you get nothing out of it. You don't even really want to keep reading whatever it is that you're reading. And then you have some that are like, super amazingly written, and you can definitely tell the person's personality. But it's probably not being found by search engines, because we don't have the keywords necessarily. It's not really a strategic thing. It's, it's an afterthought, or it's just part of their messaging, which is great, but we can make it a little bit more strategic. So that was something that was illuminated and I was like, that's just really brilliant and good to hear.
No, that's such a great point. Because, you know, we've been we're kind of newer to the blogging side of our business. You know, we started in different content medium, but for blogging and for YouTube, especially for video content, since we've now added the video component to our podcasts, we have had to be very mindful of SEO. And it is frustrating because sometimes, you know, the keywords that you want to rank for might be too competitive. So it doesn't make sense to you. So then you're like, Okay, I'll choose this other keywords, but it doesn't quite like it's like, what is it trying to put a square peg into a round hole, it doesn't quite fit the content or captured what I'm trying to convey with this content. But it's the best chance we have actually been found, to your point. And like, what's really the point of the content if no one ever sees it? And so it is writing that that fine line? And I'd be curious to see how that plays out actually, in in a real life case study. So I know we were just using the one featuring Darrell Is there is there another case study where you can kind of just pull out maybe a few lines during the E section, the experience section and kind of show us even call out like this is the keyword that we were trying to optimize for, and this is how it's being used. But then here's how we still layered in personality so that it didn't feel like reading a textbook.
Yeah, I can definitely do that. This actually, I'll share this before I go in search for that. But even recently, I had a friend who is very well known in the brand voice space, reach out to me, they had already worked with an SEO provider, but they were left without really understanding what it was that they were given and how to use it. And new headlines were written for their website pages, and the personality was stripped. And this person is in the brand, voice copywriting kind of, it was kind of like, um, this is not good. So I told them to change their headlines back because that was really the main reason they reached out there like, am I gonna get, you know, cursed by the SEO gods if I revert back? And I was like, No, in fact, I highly recommend that. Let me do some different keyword research. And then I'll walk you through how to actually use the keywords in there.
This actually might even be a better way to answer this for the listeners, because you don't want to feel like you're losing your personality. And you also don't want to feel like you're trying to force the square peg into the round hole. So what do you do? What I recommend doing is actually writing the headline first, what is the catchy personality driven thing that you want to include? Then go do your keyword research, find those keywords, whatever your one to two target keywords are? And then how do we weave that into the headline without losing the essence of the headline?
Can you give an example of that, and I know you're about to pull up one for the for, you know, walking us through what the experience section might look like. But if either the same one or a different one comes to mind for a headline, like if you can remember what the original headline was, and then what the keyword you found was and then how you inserted it into the headline that would be really helpful.
Let me see what I can find.
Sorry, I'm putting you to work. I know.
It's good. And I'm like, it's funny too. Because my my first few case studies, it's not that I'm not proud of them, but my skills have definitely gotten stronger. Okay, and that's going to happen. And so I would love for people to remember that too. Yeah, they're only gonna get better. I don't remember if there was another version of this headline. But this is one of the headlines from a case study that I wrote for my friend Brenna McGowan. So she has the pre launch plan program, which I'm in now and I'm so excited. But she had me write a few case studies for her. And this is one of the headlines.
UX copywriter and strategist Susan sold 30% of her program spots before the cart even open. So what are we getting out here? We're pulling in UX copywriter and strategist. Because copywriters there's a ton of copywriters in Brenna's world, they're naturally going to be in her world anyway. But this will be a way that they can get to this case study with a Google search. We're also leading in with, you know, before her cart open, pre launch. So we're indicating pre launch without actually spelling out pre launch. Interesting.
So like in that case, pre launch might have been too competitive of a keyword to rank for. So you kind of found a workaround for how to deliver the same idea without, like you said, saying it in so many words, right?
Yeah, and definitely part of the SEO strategy sheet that I create for people or even like guide them through how to create on their own is, what are some synonymous supportive or similar keywords that we can weave in because if you, let's say I just wanted to hammer home case study copywriter. If I say that all the time down the page, you're doing something called keyword stuffing, and search engines don't love it when you do that they actually deprioritize your content when you do that. So you don't want to do that. Which is why having the variety of keywords to pick up on can be really helpful.
Interesting.
Also, another point, my brain just started ping ponging around, having several different case studies to be able to reference for a variety of reasons about your work and what you do and how you help people and what you're known for, you can play on these different angles. So the last one, I was able to highlight copywriter and strategist, which Brenna is, and has a history of being and is pulling in those people, this next one will actually hit something different. So this is a different headline for another case study, this seven figure business owner got over her fear of email marketing and had a $230,000 pre launch, we've got pre launch in there. So this time, we're calling it forward a little bit more. But we're also saying, business owner, and it's a different identity as well. So you're able to kind of tackle it from a variety of angles, which can be good, then you get to be a little bit more creative than you get to like speak to different people pull different things out of your program, or highlight different things about your product.
That's super helpful. And both of those examples for the headlines were for Brenna outright for this same business or business owner. Okay. Awesome. That is really, really helpful in allowing us to see how you can utilize headlines in a way that's creative, but still gets to the point still make sense for what someone might type into Google or type into YouTube. Going back to the experience, were you able to find the case study that you want to highlight for the E process of your pet framework?
So the example that I'll use for the experience is I'm actually working with Dallas Travers on a case study right now. And I just created the first draft like it's, it's at her doorstep right now. But this was such a good example of bringing that experience to life. Because we were able to highlight the different lessons that are in the hive, which is Dallas's mentorship program, we were able to say, this person, Randy has been with her since the beginning, she will not leave even one of her quotes was like, I love the hive. I'm not leaving. I'm one of the original members like I'm here, which I thought was perfect. And that speaks to so many different things. Clearly, like there's a good group of people in there. Clearly, the content in the training is actually laid out in a way that is so helpful for people and they feel supported. And that was another thing too. Some of the quotes are even pulling in like I've seen other people feel like blank. So it wasn't just about her experience, she was highlighting others as well. I just thought it was so perfect.
No, that does sound like that should be plastered on the sales page. Like I'm not leaving, like, that's the level of depth and connection that the members or clients have. So anyways, I'll let you all to read.
Alright, so it reads like this. Randy was one of the very first members of the hive, which has grown deserve more than I'm still waiting on the number of coaches. Quote, The community is everything. I'm one of the original members of the hive, and I just won't leave. It's true, as is this. Inside the mentorship program, we have coaches at every different level, we have coaches from newbie status all the way to coaches who've been in business for years. And just like Randy says, wherever you are on the roller coaster, someone else's there, someone else has been there, and they will catch you when you're on your way down and give you the push to get back on your way up. As I mentioned at the beginning, that Randy is the perfect example of the ripple effect system in action. So let me share more about what this is. And then we dive into that actual framework and how it comes to life inside the program.
So people can like really visualize themselves being in the program experiencing this doing the, you know, or following through on the framework, I guess.
Yeah, and this is a beauty of the case studies is, it's not just a try before you buy, it's like almost like you're experiencing it before you get into the program. So you really do get to test drive it and see if you want to take the car home, do I like it enough to invest? Do I see myself actually going around and doing the work and enjoying the community and getting what I need out of it?
I like the way you phrase that. try before you buy, I guess I've never really thought about case studies like that. And in some ways, I almost think of case studies as a just a much more expensive testimonial with a lot more detail and data and whatnot. But you're so right. It is like a way for someone to truly preview or test something before they choose to invest. So love that mindset shift the last letter in your framework T What does that stand for?
So T is for transformation. And it's all about the after? Where are we at now, what's possible. And something I love to bring to light in this section of the framework is that there are internal and external wins. There are internal and external transformations. What do I mean by that? Internal is more like emotional. How did the person change on a deep inner core level? And then external is more like what can we track? What do the numbers show us? What does the data show? You know, are there were visitors to their website? Are they selling to more people? Are they getting more people in their program? What are those like outside things? Every story is going to have an internal transformation every single one and I actually say that that's the stronger transformation. So if that's quote unquote, all you have, you actually have a really good case study, because we're all looking for that we want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to know that we can be helped, we want to know that there is hope, right?
From the external transformation thing, though, I've written case studies for people where they've just gotten out of the program where they've just, you know, purchased the product. So they don't really have a whole lot of results to point to yet from an external standpoint of like, I don't really have numbers, I haven't really tried my pre launch yet. And that's okay. It's kind of like at that point, you can point to what's possible. And you can focus on this was how they were changed on an internal level.
That's really encouraging. Because I do think that's what sometimes makes people feel not as confident in writing a case study because they feel like maybe they don't have concrete metrics to include just yet. But I think earlier, you mentioned that you have a really helpful example that you could show to highlight this portion of the framework, that transformation piece, I'll let you go ahead with that.
Yeah, definitely. So one of the things that I like to remind people that you can do is, especially anything relating to SEO, so many of us forget, though, which is optimization, which means that you can go back and you can update and edit and add to the case study a blog, or web page, whatever it may be. So with this example, I happen to be in the same circles with these two ladies. And I saw that Emily had a six figure launch for the first time ever. And I had written her case study already, but I saw her mention this. And it was after the case study was originally published. And I reached out and I was like, congratulations. And can I steal 15 minutes of your time so that I can grab more quotes and get more data and get more specifics and then go and add this to the case study? And she was like, Yeah, of course. So I did that even before it front. I did eventually reach out to me. And she was like, can we get more quotes, I was like, I'm already on it.
So this is, I'll just read a little bit of a section of it. But we went back and we added to it. So this is how this little section goes. I left the best for last. Her goal was 20,000. But she hit $48,000. Quickly, she blew her goal out of the water. And then it got better. When all was said and done. Emily had a $73,000 launch successful course launch achieved caliber of students improved, a way better to launch revealed and then we even go into like how I got even more better than that. More better. Yeah, we're gonna go with that.
What are words when we say right?
I'm good at typing, I'm not saying them
Moments of rawness and realness on the pod. I love it. That's really, really helpful. And I love the way that it's almost like you're like, not stringing someone along. That's not the right word. But like, it's like you're building anticipation. It's like this happen, but then something better happened. And then even something better happens. So that was really exciting to hear it that way. Thank you so much for sharing your pet framework. I feel like that's such an easy to remember way of structuring a compelling case study.
And I just want to point out to our listeners to some of you may have noticed that we've featured our actual listeners on our show before as guests, people like Brittany. And one of the things that you can be thinking about if you ever want to, you know guest star on cubicle to CEO is we are always looking for compelling case studies in a pitch. So when people pitch our podcast, we don't necessarily want to hear your whole bio and your accolades. And like, Hi, I'm an expert on this topic. And here are my three expert talking points, right, because there's so many other shows that already covered that type of information. So on our show, the best way you can stand out with a pitch in addition to one easy way to lead with gratitude that I'll link below in the show notes because we recorded a bonus episode on like, one easy thing you can include in every podcast pitch to stand out.
But for our show, specifically, if you follow Brittany's PET framework and use that to craft a compelling case study, you can utilize that not only for you know, selling your services and products, but you can even use that framework to pitch a show like art. So I just wanted to pull that out as a bonus highlight and then kind of wrap up our conversation on case studies today, Brittany with a common question that I know a lot of people ask, which is how long should a case study be?
Yes, this is such a great question. And it happens to me all the time in my DMs and I love answering it because that was one of my first questions. So at the beginning, I was like, I don't know, let me kind of like see what the average is. And I've noticed that my average is like 1000 to 1200 words. Now before you panic if you're listening, you don't. We just talked about the fact that you can go back and optimize. So something that I will tell people and it just instantly I can see their shoulders drop and then just like take a sigh of relief. You need a minimum of 500 words per page. So if even if you're writing a blog, you'll go out and you'll Google things and you'll see everyone in their mother tell you that you need it to be two to 3000 words long. It does not have to be you need it to be as long as it needs to be to help the person that's looking for that information.
I would say start give yourself a mental goal of 500 words, and it's not that hard. If you're a copywriter like me, you know, it's not that hard. If you're not a copywriter like me, just trust me, it's pretty short. You could start there. And then you can always like beef it up and grow from there. But I like I said, mine average, like 1000 to 1200 words I've gone over I've gone under sometimes it depends on just like how much information I have to work with. Sometimes it's like, what is the goal of this case study on someone's website. So there's a number of factors, but start with 500 words, and you can always go up from there.
That's really encouraging to hear. I think iteration is such a key part of entrepreneurship and all facets. And so to also apply that to writing a case study and that reminder that you can always go back and optimize is so so important. Brittany, where can our listeners connect with you next, I think you might also have a resource for them, in case they want an easy way to access the information that you shared on today's episode.
I sure do. So you can find me as Ellen knows pretty much all the time on Instagram. It started out as a joke that I live on Instagram. And it's turned out to be the truth. So I'm over there. So feel free to say hi, I love having conversations in the DMS. And definitely ask me a question. If anything came up today. I love creating content based on actual questions that are asked. So feel free to ask one. I'm also starting to show up more on LinkedIn. And it's having some really good results. I got like a badge thing about being an SEO copywriting experts. Okay, hi, over there. Thank you. And the resource for sure, I will make sure you get the link. But it's my profitable case study roadmap. It's 10 or 11, page PDF, Google Docs situation, I probably should have charged for it. Like you get so much good information in here. And I cannot recommend it enough. And it's not just because I created it, it's it gives you a really good starting point. And then a roadmap to actually create your first or best case study that is so generous.
Thank you for sharing that with our community. All of Brittany's links that were just mentioned will be below in the show notes. So Fret not you can just go and click away. And if you do end up creating a case study with the framework that Brittany shared today or with the profitable case study roadmap resource that she's giving away to you. Please Please don't forget to tell her like tag her in the complete case study, share it with us share it with Brittany, just like we talked about at the beginning of this interview. Anytime you can actually provide feedback and show gratitude to the people who are helping you with a certain process or whatever it may be. It only helps you to like it's truly such a great way to get visibility. Because I guarantee you if you tell Brittany, hey, I use your framework to create this case study. She's probably going to shout it out. Right. So it's just a great way to say thanks but also to be collaborative. So anyways, Brittany, you're wonderful. Thank you so much again for joining us.
