Welcome to Louisiana Lefty, a podcast about politics and community in Louisiana, where we make the case that the health of the state requires a strong progressive movement fueled by the critical work of organizing on the ground. Our goal is to democratize information, demystify party politics, and empower you to join the mission. Because victory for Louisiana requires you.
I'm your host Lynda Woolard. This episode is the second of a two part interview with Logan Atkinson Burke, the executive director of the Alliance for Affordable energy. If you missed our previous episode, Greater Powers than You Know No. 1 with Logan Burke, please give it a listen, and then come back to this episode as we pick up where we left off with a wide ranging conversation on how energy impacts every aspect of our daily lives, and how each piece of the power puzzle is part of an interconnected web that requires a thoughtful and holistic approach.
Logan, we talked before recording the podcast about nuclear energy. If we're trying to get off oil and gas, moving to nuclear energy is not really a reasonable move. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I know we talked about it, like I said, on the video, we posted to Facebook, but what's the Alliance's stance on nuclear? And why is it so dangerous here in Louisiana?
Sure. The Alliance's position on nuclear is unchanged over the 35 years that we've been around. And it's really complicated, not only because of the potential environmental costs, but also the built costs. We pay a lot of money for nuclear power plants that don't always show up for us. And, you know, we've talked a lot here about distributed resources, making sure that people have power where they need it when they need it. And nuclear assets are just the opposite, right? They're the traditional, you know, 20th century electric system, that puts all the power literally in one place and then moves that power across distances with transmission and distribution. And so when these power plants go down, like Grand Gulf has in the last number of years... Grand Gulf, by the way, is a nuclear plant that is in Mississippi that is owned by an Entergy affiliate. And so both Entergy New Orleans and Entergy Louisiana customers have been paying for it, whether that plant runs or not. And unfortunately, that means that over the last handful of years, when it hasn't been nearly as reliable as it should be, we've been paying through the nose for it. And furthermore, when that plant goes down, that loss of a very large amount of power deals a blow to the larger energy market, meaning other things have to turn on to fill those gaps. And what we see happen in energy markets is, it's a classic supply and demand in a very short term sort of fashion. And so it means not only does the demand for power go up from other plants, it means the demand right now as long as we're depending largely on natural gas, for gas goes up that therefore sort of feeding that not so virtuous cycle of increasing costs for gas and electricity.
None of that even touches the problems that come with the lifecycle of nuclear power. You know, nuclear fuel comes from a number of places. Here in the US, our nuclear fuel, largely comes from land that is indigenous land in the US Southwest, and the indigenous communities have been impacted by that over the course of the last half century.
A piece of interesting news that came out just this week was, even as the Biden administration put into place these oil and gas, not just sanctions but saying that we are no longer going to import oil and gas into the US during this war in Ukraine, it did leave the window open for us to continue to import the nuclear fuel that we receive from Russia. So even as Russia is using Ukraine's nuclear fleet for nuclear terror, whether or not those impacts are immediately felt in a nuclear fallout kind of way, which we are hearing is not currently a threat, it is nonetheless a tool of terror for Russia. And at the very same time, our administration here in the US is saying, but we're going to continue to fuel their economy by purchasing nuclear fuel for our nuclear power plants.
So, Lynda, it's really complicated, because the the argument for nuclear, in some ways is a really sound one, in terms of the fact that it is carbon free, right? To have a nuclear power plant means that we aren't burning fossil fuels and releasing greenhouse gas emissions. This is absolutely true. It's just that there are a whole lot of other things stacked up against it. And the question is, are there other things that we can be doing in the short term that can fill those needs? As you've heard me say a million times, the first one is always going to be energy efficiency. We've got to deal with our energy waste, first and foremost. And then we acknowledge the fact that we have got tremendous solar resources in our region. And if we can build out our transmission and really invest in our opportunities in the Gulf, we can be a leader in offshore wind. So you know, these are the things that that we think we should be focusing on, not only for the environment, but for long term, our bills, and for our working economy.
The Alliance for Affordable energy advocates in the Louisiana Legislature, with the Public Service Commission, and the New Orleans City Council. Those are the big three. The New Orleans City Council is sort of unique in that they are the rare local government that has energy regulation involved.
Yes, this is a huge deal. The New Orleans City Council is one of only two municipalities in the country that has local regulatory authority of an investor owned utility. Now, this is different than a municipal utility, like Lafayette and Alexandria and even Ruston, here in Louisiana have Munis, where the city council or a local power board makes decisions about electric power. But the city council here in New Orleans has this authority. And it means that we are able to move on more progressive energy programs and policies here. You know, by the way, the only other municipality that has this kind of local authority is Washington, DC, because there isn't a state public service commission to pass it up to, right? And so it is really novel that we have this power. And it's down to a long tradition of home rule charter, that we have this authority. And so as a result, the New Orleans City Council, which, as its job as council members, and not just energy regulators, has a really broad mandate, right? Their interests are not just about energy. They're also about housing, and jobs, and land use, all kinds of things that typically energy regulators don't think about. And so we think that that gives the council a really special way with which to look at energy policy. And it has meant, for example, that we have much more robust energy efficiency programs in New Orleans than the rest of the state. We have much lower average energy usage per household in New Orleans than the rest of the state. And as of last year, the New Orleans City Council approved a renewable portfolio standard, the first in the region, which the state does not yet have. And so what we're able to do is prove these things out and then take them to the commission or elsewhere and say, "This is working for people. Let's move more on this."
It was fascinating to watch last year after the city council approved this renewable portfolio standard, the solar and wind industries said that move made a very clear announcement that there is an opportunity for these things in Louisiana, because industries need market certainty. They need some certainty that there is a place for them to sell their their products, right? Because there has been a lack of that very clear opportunity through the Public Service Commission, it was a huge message sent to the international clean energy industries that Louisiana is open for business. So we think that the commission should really hear that loud and clear.
So the Louisiana Public Service Commission -- I think that's a foreign body to a lot of voters here -- but you do a lot of advocacy work with them. And you actually even do a training for people to educate them on what the PSC does. Can you tell me a little bit more about them, and your relationship with them?
Yeah. So the Louisiana Public Service Commission is the regulator of not just electric power, not just gas, also privately owned water companies, and common carriers in Louisiana. That means also, telecommunications, but common carriers, including moving trucks that that run within the state, taxis that run within the state. Even intrastate oil pipelines fall under the jurisdiction of the Louisiana Public Service Commission. One of the more interesting ones that not a lot of people are aware of is prison phones, which means that if you are incarcerated in Louisiana, the costs to you and your family to stay connected are down to the decisions that happen at the Louisiana Public Service Commission. What's wild is that there are five of these commission seats, and very few people know who their commissioner is. And these seats also are very often uncontested, which means for a seat that has a six year term, let's say I run and I'm seated, and then I am finished with my six years and I run again, and I'm uncontested, which happens a lot, it could be 12 years before people see, have an opportunity to vote for, know about their public service commissioner. In fact, this is happening right this year. Out of five seats, two of those are open for election, district three and district four. District three covers part of New Orleans, up through what we refer to as cancer alley or the industrial corridor, and into Baton Rouge. Then the other one is Lake Charles, kind of the heel of the boot, up into Alexandria, and over to Toledo Bend. And these two seats are really important when it comes to the work of climate action. If you think about it, these are the two regions and districts in our state that hold the great bulk of our industrial emissions, which is of course where so many of our greenhouse gas emissions are coming from. So this year is a huge chance for people who are thinking about the future of our state, thinking about what we could be in terms of a clean energy state, to pay attention to the Public Service Commission.
And the third body I mentioned was the Louisiana Legislature. This will air as legislature is just picking up. Do you have things you're looking at in this year's session?
Yeah, actually, Lynda, this is one of the first times the alliance has really been very involved at the legislature. And I'll tell you the reason we got involved. We recognize that because of the federal dollars that had been put aside through the the infrastructure bill, not to mention the work of the Climate Initiatives Task Force, a lot of the things that must happen to reduce people's bills, to make our state more resilient, to take advantage of these federal dollars, to take real climate action, the things have to happen at the legislature. So we are really watching closely, for example, some work around a solar and storage rebate incentive, that could get a lot more solar and storage onto homes, and businesses, and hopefully, even critical facilities. Places that that act like distribution centers and cooling centers, churches, fire departments, community centers. These are the places that we all depend on after a storm, and even on very hot days, even when the power is on.
We're hoping to see good use of some of these dollars that came down from the American Recovery Plan, the Biden administration's COVID dollars, that were released nationally, and that Louisiana still has some to spend. So this is some some recovery dollars that we have to put toward making people's lives better post COVID. And what's really important here is that if what we're doing is also situating ourselves to go get some of the competitive dollars associated with the infrastructure bill. The Biden administration really wants to see that we're focusing on climate, on equity, on jobs, and on Made in America. These four cornerstones of how the infrastructure investment will roll out can be used as guideposts for this year's Louisiana Legislature, if we want to send a signal to Washington, that we are ready and and prepared to really use this infrastructure money wisely. We would be thoughtful if we use some of this year's legislative session to signal that and to make these kinds of decisions in that direction.
I did want to ask you specifically about something that came up on Sheriff Newell Norman's radio show after Hurricane Ida, because you've specifically mentioned some of the Biden initiatives, as well. I know, electric vehicles and infrastructure around that are a big part of what he's pushing. When we were out of power after Ida, the former sheriff was suggesting that that was the reason we shouldn't have electric vehicles, because we wouldn't be able to power our cars. Now, of course, this is at a time when we had long gas lines, and we were having trouble getting gas in here, as well. So do you have a response to that? Because in that moment, I'm thinking that doesn't sound right. I feel like this is a soapbox that he gets to be on unchallenged, on his radio show. But it didn't sound right to me, Logan.
It feels to me like a knee jerk, "Oh, well, in that case, we we shouldn't actually move forward with the future that the rest of the planet is doing." What is true, to your point is that, you know, was our gas infrastructure any better or well prepared to handle these kinds of climate fueled weather events? I think the answer is no. Unfortunately, what we saw was, as you say, gas lines. We even saw interpersonal conflicts at gas stations. On the other hand, we are also not yet prepared with the kinds of charging corridors on our highway systems, which is what we're really going to need to make sure that this can happen. Now, that said, previously, we've spoken a bit about thinking holistically about our homes when it comes to resilience. I mentioned that we don't just want to do solar and storage. We also want to make sure that our homes are energy efficient, and therefore throwing away less of that energy that we're generating.
Another piece of this is, how can we also use electric vehicles as part of that holistic thinking? So for example, you may have seen after the winter storm in Texas, there was a bit of news around Ford's new F 150 -- they're calling it the Lightning, it's an electric truck -- and their ability to use that truck as a backup for homes. So rather than plugging into a diesel or gas generator, you could just plug your truck into your house. Now what has to happen is also that we're planning to be able to move power from the house to the truck, right? So that you've got solar on your rooftop, and your truck or your car can be working in tandem, if we're planning that way. My biggest worry is that we're not necessarily planning that way. Not every car does have the ability to move power from the car to the the house or to the grid. This is what we call the bleeding edge of the energy transition right now, which is grid to vehicle or vehicle to grid. Are all of the cars that are electric going to be set up in a way to move power back and forth? So far, not every car is able to. Certain cars are, I mentioned the Ford. But not every car will be able to do that. Again, this is that kind of whole system that we're having to rethink.
What would a hybrid car be a better answer for the moment?
I currently have a hybrid. I like my hybrid very much. It means that I can go back and forth to Baton Rouge two or three times before I have to put gas in it. It is a good option right now. If I were to buy a car, right now, I would buy electric. What I would suggest is, if you're on the verge of looking for a car, sure, a hybrid is a really good solution. You might also look at a plug in hybrid, which kind of moves the goalposts closer to full EV (electric vehicle), but might reduce what they call "range anxiety." If you feel some concern about not being able to plug in, that might be an option for you.
I don't want to let folks off the hook from conservation, and this is perhaps a bizarre source of information, but Queer Eye was doing a makeover for a young woman who worked for the Sunrise Movement, and one of the things she said was that cars weren't really the biggest users of oil and gas. So I'm just curious if there are other things we need to be doing, that aren't car related, to wean us off of oil and gas.
Oh, Lynda, you might be surprised to hear that the largest gas user and largest emitter of greenhouse gases in our state is a fertilizer plant. This is something that it really blew my hair back when I learned this year just how many ways the fossil fuel industry, in particular oil and gas, act as feedstocks for other things. So first, I mentioned fertilizer, but also all the plastics, right? You might have heard of the Formosa plastic plant that has been proposed for St. James Parish. That plant would be an enormous emitter of greenhouse gas emissions, and a huge user of gas as a feedstock to plastic making. And so when we think about the the whole system, it really is our industry here, and our industry that's not just not just refining the petroleum that we're then sticking in our cars, it's so much so much bigger than that, when we think about all the things that we use in our lives. So when we think about conservation, it's not necessarily immediately evident the connections between things like plastic use and - not just recycling - but reducing our plastic use, turning to things like metal for water bottles, using other resources rather than plastics for events, and so forth. It's those kinds of things that are also going to be the hardest for us to transition away from.
I will also say, though, that it's those kinds of things, what I would call consumption of convenience, that is still relatively new in the era of humans. I mean, frankly, how long has it been since we've just assumed we would have a plastic bottle of water? That's new! That is only a few decades old. And so we really need to just remind ourselves in the blip of humanity, we've been able to stay hydrated in plenty of ways without having to resort to these kinds of fossil fueled products. And I want to be clear here, I'm not saying that it's up to every individual -- although that's a piece of it, and I know it can feel overwhelming, you know, "What can I do?" -- but it's also about the systems that are in place to prop up those petrochemical plants. It's about the money that our state is spending to entice them to come here. And that money, keep in mind, is frankly, a subsidy of the fossil fuel industry. It's a subsidy of the plastics industry. If the plastics industry had to pay all of those millions of dollars, that instead we give them as a state, plastic bottles for water wouldn't be nearly the as ubiquitous as they are, right? We have to think about how all these pieces, including the ITEP (Industrial Tax Exemption Program) are associated with our climate goals. We can't be subsidizing and supporting the fertilizer companies and the the plastics companies and the methanol companies and the LNG (liquified natural gas) terminals, if we have goals to reduce our carbon emissions. Thinking about how all these pieces lock in together is is a big part of that.
And the infrastructure plan has ways to address some of our water supply system. If people could just drink from the tap, that would make a huge difference in that plastics piece.
Yeah, I mean, it's not a small number of people who use plastic water bottles in our state, in our country, as a result of having lead pipes. I was up in Detroit just a few years ago, working with a group who is dealing with a water crisis in in Michigan. It's not just Flint, it's Detroit, too. Unfortunately, the short term solution is pallets and pallets of bottled water, to respond to the realities of what has happened from privatizing our water systems. So I really hope that that by investing in our infrastructure in smart ways, which is getting the lead out, and hopefully investing in transit, as opposed to just new roads, you know, these are the things that will get us going in the right direction.
Can we talk about our Louisiana wetlands for a minute?
Sure.
I guess I'm going to ask what we should be doing to protect them, but I also want for us to just revisit the things -- and I think I got this directly from y'all's Twitter feed -- the things that wetlands actually accomplish for us. What y'all had tweeted was they store two times the carbon of all global forests, they safeguard our coastal communities against hurricanes, and they regulate water flows to prevent floods and droughts.
Yeah, our wetlands are incredibly powerful and unique. You know, not only are they beautiful things, but they have provided safety for South Louisianans well before we called people who lived here Louisianans. Unfortunately, we've all heard the stories and the numbers about how quickly they're going away. But part of it is just that our wetlands are being attacked by what I call air, land and sea, right? Everything from just global sea level rise, to carving into them for further oil and gas exploration, and if carbon capture sequestration pipelines are built through our state, they will go through wetlands. It's all of these pieces together that if we were to just back up and say, "The thing that we need to protect is the thing that is protecting us," we wouldn't continue to invest in the things that are just harming us and only benefiting a handful of investors.
I've been really interested in the connections folks are making with our food production system and climate change. You specifically mentioned a fertilizer plant. One of my favorite politicians, Cory Booker, talks a lot about how this is part of the reason he's a vegan, not the only reason. Do y'all have any thoughts on that, because that does touch on workers rights, farmers rights, racial justice, climate justice issues, ecological issues, animal welfare issues... Our food production system touches on everything we talk about.
Food is human fuel. We must have it. It is fundamental. And, unfortunately, it's connected with our fossil fuel industry, with our hypoxic gulf. I think about the fact that, here in Louisiana, because of all the initiatives to bring industry, especially gas fueled industry to Louisiana, we're making all of these fertilizers, we send them up to the Midwest, the Midwest then spreads those fertilizers on acres and acres of corn to be used for ethanol, which by the way, is not great for our air, then many of those fertilizers come down the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico and create deadzones, which then impact our fisheries. So we're in this really terrible loop, where Louisiana is getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop coming and going. And we don't have to!
What I think is really exciting is the the work being done by organizations that are looking at regenerative agriculture and composting. In fact, I know some folks who are working on some legislative recommendations this year around municipal composting, because here's another piece of the greenhouse gas puzzle: a lot of our waste that goes into landfills turns into yet more methane. If instead, we were to capture the waste that would otherwise become more landfill gas, and use that as part of a composting network, we could actually reduce the amount of those fertilizers that we're otherwise using fossil fuels for. Even better than that, it could make our soils more prepared to sequester more carbon as a natural carbon sink. So all of these pieces can fit together if we just so choose.
I have one more question before we get to the closing part of the show. The U.S. intelligence community has just listed climate change as one of the top five threats to America this year, along with China, Russia, Iran, and health security, largely around COVID and pandemic issues. Shouldn't being listed in that company make Americans think a little harder about how we address climate change?
Yes, and not only that, the fact that our military for a while now has been saying exactly the same thing. So much so that our military, for bases around the world, has been strategicallt planning and designing them for sea level rise, in order to prepare for these impacts from climate change. We know that all of the systems that people depend on for safety, that includes food that we've spoken about, that includes water, that includes stable land for our homes to sit on, it even includes things like insurance, and finance, all of these pieces are deeply at risk. And, unfortunately, because we have ignored the problem or dusted it under the carpet for so long, we have gotten ourselves to a position, so says the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, that a lot of this is baked in now, and for at least the next two decades, it will continue to get worse, even if we turn the taps off right away. That means, at this point, we're also in harm reduction land, which is all the more reason we must think about how best to protect people, health and safety. And whether that means making our homes more resilient, raising them, making them more weatherized, ready for extreme heat and cold and humidity, making sure that we have access to clean power that is distributed in our communities, and also owned by people and communities, not just these large corporations that are making economic plays. We absolutely must be doing that. I really hope -- in fact, I said this just yesterday to the governor's Climate Initiatives Task Force -- I really hope that we can resist the messaging from the industries that are taking this war in Ukraine as an opportunity to push more fossil fuel investments, because it will only make us less safe, and it will only make us less economically stable. We have to learn that the banner of energy and independence cannot be about energy we're shipping overseas, it must be about protecting people where they are, and not just linking all of these things to an an international energy market. We've got to keep it here at home. And it's got to come from a place of, at this point, self preservation.
Logan, what's the People's Power Hour?
Hey! The People's Power Hour is a weekly show here on WHIV FM, that's 102.3 FM. It's a local community radio station. And the purpose of our show is to connect people with with what's happening with the energy transition, but also to empower people. I really like to, in our show, talk to people about how they got involved, what their pathway was. Because so often, you know, people come to this work from working in a restaurant or you know, working as a costume designer, for example. And it might not be immediately evident how you can get plugged in and involved. But there is space for everyone in this movement. And that is what we like to talk about on the People's Power Hour on Tuesdays at 1pm.
What other tools are you using to educate the public?
So we use all the social medias. We do a lot of tweeting, a lot of Facebooking. But we do learn-in sessions. You mentioned the Public Service Commission. We like to make sure that people have an opportunity, not just to receive information, but also to ask questions and weigh in and say what matters to them. And so we like to do things like webinars, but we also do candidate forums. So in advance of New Orleans City Council races, we do candidate forums to let people hear from potential regulators. We'll do the same for the Public Service Commission. We think that those are important learning opportunities both for communities and for candidates.
Is the best way for people to plug into your work social media?
I think it's probably the easiest way. There's just a ton of information. Our Instagram is on fire right now. There's always more information to be had on Twitter. You can also go to all4energy.org, and sign up for our monthly newsletter, which will give you all kinds of information about new ways to get plugged in, new information that's out there as a result of new research that we're following, and we like to connect to all of our networks that are out there doing great work.
What do you need most right now from people who care about these issues?
Whoo, that is a good question. We need people to follow along through our newsletter or social media, and show up, use your voice. Your voice is more powerful than just one small six person organization. There are millions of Louisianans who care about protecting our future, and we know you're out there. So join us. Reach out to your decision makers that are elected to represent you. And reach out to us if you've got questions.
Last three questions: Logan, what is the biggest obstacle to progressive change in Louisiana on the issue of climate and energy?
The real answer is a lack of trust in our democracy. I am hearing this from people, frankly, on the left and the right. But there is a lack of trust that if we show up to the polls, that it matters at all, that if we reach out to our decision makers, that it makes a difference. But it does. You know, I have spoken with folks all over the state who say, "Well, you know, it's baked in, it is who we are, nothing's going to change, it's all so corrupt." And unfortunately, the more we say that and believe it and just wash our hands of it, because that's what we believe, the more true it is. The more power you give away to the oil and gas interests, the more power you're giving away of your from yourself, from your community. And so we have to believe, we have to trust that if we show up, and we speak our mind, and these decision makers know that their jobs are in danger if they're not listening, then we can actually do something. I think that's really our biggest danger right now.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
That is it.
And the guest I had on before you made very clearly the point that we cannot be deterred when our desire for change is not met immediately, that it is a long term plan, and that it does take a lot of groundwork in order to get to the place where we can actually see change being made on a regular basis.
Yeah, and with climate, it is so urgent, it's a funny thing to have to keep reminding oneself is that we're not going to win it overnight, because it's at our back door now. And so that urgency is breathing down our necks. But we cannot be deterred, as you say, by short term losses. We must keep gaining ground. And so I'm not abandoning this place anytime soon. And I'm not abandoning this fight anytime soon.
So what's the biggest opportunity for progressive change in climate and energy in Louisiana?
The biggest opportunity for climate in Louisiana is for our leadership, that being our regulators, city council, Public Service Commission, our legislators, our governor, to hear from people that that's what we want to see, that there is a desire to do this. And so, you know, whether that's showing up at the polls, showing up at these forums and letting candidates know what matters. You know, like I said, we've got two out of five of the seats at the Public Service Commission open this year, and they are the ones who could create a renewable future for our state. So that's a big fat opportunity.
Excellent! Logan, who's your favorite superhero?
Oh, that's a good question. I guess it's got to be Wonder Woman. I always loved those gold cuffs.
The bling! You like the bling on Wonder Woman.
Well, that and the invisible plane, you know?
Right on, right on. Logan, thank you so much for joining me on Louisiana Lefty. I appreciate you giving me extra time out of your day. And you've just really shared a lot of great information that I think will be really helpful to the listeners.
Thank you so much, Lynda. I'm grateful for what you do, having these conversations and giving people some insight into how to really move Louisiana and how to progress.
Thank you for listening to Louisiana Lefty. Please follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you to Ben Collinsworth for producing Louisiana Lefty, Jen Pack of Black Cat Studios for our Super Lefty artwork, and Thousand $ Car for allowing us to use their swamp pop classic "Security Guard" as our Louisiana Lefty theme song.
