THE BOOK OF LIFE - Catnip for Librarians, Smart Kids Talk About Books
10:13PM Jul 1, +0000
Speakers:
Sheryl Stahl
Heidi Rabinowitz
Ellery
Hudson
Tracy Lopez
Pamela Ehrenberg
Keywords:
book
jewish
characters
people
read
pj
author
hudson
important
graphic novel
ellery
kids
writing
libraries
world
ban
love
bit
bat mitzvah
agree
[COLD OPEN] An author, like, takes part of their soul and part of their world and puts it out there for people to see when they're writing a book and it's not anybody's business to say this part of you doesn't deserve to be experienced by others. You don't deserve to share it.
[MUSIC, INTRO] This is The Book of Life a show about Jewish kidlit, mostly. I'm Heidi Rabinowitz. Today we have kids talking about kidlit, a couple of graduates of PJ Our Way's National Design Team. 10 year old Hudson and 13 year old Ellery joined me to discuss their love of reading in general and Jewish books in particular. Their enthusiasm is catnip for a children's librarian like me, and I'm sure you will find them equally delightful. You may also enjoy Hudsons interview show on YouTube, The Hudson Hangout. I'll put a link in the show notes. Enjoy.
Ellery and Hudson, welcome to The Book of Life.
Thank you, I'm super excited to be here!
Yeah.
Ellery, where do you live? And how old are you?
Yeah, I live in Massachusetts. I'm 13 years old. I'm very excited about being a teenager.
And Hudson, how about you?
I'm 10 years old, and I live in Los Angeles.
Now, both of you, I met through PJ Our Way. And as listeners may know, PJ Our Way is a program that sends free Jewish books to kids through the mail. And you've both actually even participated not only as readers, but you've been on the design team for PJ Our Way. So can you tell us a little bit about that?
It was really incredible to kind of be part of the behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Like, people making this thing that I love. It was a really incredible experience. And I loved kind of getting to see how this amazing setup got put together.
Yeah, it was awesome. And it's just really fun to do stuff that you know lots of other people are going to see.
I agree with that.
What kind of stuff did you do for the design team?
We wrote polls, reviews, videos, lots of different things.
Sometimes we got to interview authors. That was always incredible. I once interviewed an author and then later I found her work in this magazine that my mom loves. And it always felt like so special to me. Like, I know her! I got to talk to her!
Yeah.
Awesome. What do you think of PJ Our Way in general? What do you like about it?
I just like it. I don't really know.
I love books.
Yeah.
I love learning more about Judaism.
Um hm.
I really, really love books. And so first and foremost, any place that like provides me with books is just incredible to me.
Yes.
Yeah. And I've actually gotten some of my favorite books from PJ Our Way.
Yes.
Plus, it's great to have a source to learn about, like, I was getting ready for my bat mitzvah and some of the PJ Our Way books and characters kind of gave me a little bit of guidance. And that was incredible.
Yeah.
So I know that both of you are avid readers. Why do you like to read so much?
I've always thought that writing a book is like, kind of putting a piece of your world out there for everyone to see. I love seeing kind of what's inside of people's heads. And I love seeing the worlds that they create and the worlds that they live in. Reading books is a great escape. When I'm feeling kind of crazy and anxious and what the heck is going on, it's like, Yeah, I'm Ellery, I love to read and this character is getting her tuba lesson, and so let's just think about that for a minute.
Right. I think yeah, it's an amazing way to like escape everything that's happening around you. Yeah, I like seeing what's going on in people's heads, that kind of stuff.
What do you think makes a great middle grade book?
Well, actually, I think it depends a lot on your opinion of what you like. But for me, personally, I think something that has some sort of adventure or something in it.
I love books with great characters. For me, even if like the plot isn't great, if there's a character that I want to root for, or that I want to like, learn more about, that will make a book just amazing for me, even if the entire book is just about like two people walking up a hill, if I love the characters that brings it through. And it also works the opposite way sometimes, like I've read books where the plot was amazing, but I just didn't like the character and so I just couldn't enjoy the book.
Um hm. Right.
Good point. What do you wish authors or publishers knew? What do you wish they would do differently or do more of?
That's a really good question. I mean, I love to talk.
Yes.
And sometimes in public, I've gotten quite a bit of reactions of like, "a kid who can talk?!?" And so I think that I love, I love it when an author sees the kid is someone who understands concepts. I think I'd like authors to know that kids are pretty awesome and pretty smart. And we can understand just about anything you want to throw at us. Other than that, I'd like them to know that they're doing a great job. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, I agree with that a lot. And I think they should also know that most kids these days, keep up with current events a lot more. And I feel like in some books, it's just like, kids don't even know what's going on.
Yeah.
Right.
That's interesting. So you think that kids are being portrayed as not as savvy as they actually are in real life?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting. Is there any topic that you're just sick of reading about, that you wish publishers would stop creating books about?
This is a slightly different answer. But I've seen a lot of books that fall into what I call sequel syndrome, which is like, the book didn't need a sequel, and yet they made a sequel. And the sequel just doesn't show anything new. It's just kind of, they stretched it out on purpose to make another book that didn't really need to be there. Just because like, fans demanded it. That's definitely something that I don't think anyone should write a book just for the sake of writing a book. I think they should write a book because like, it's something that is awesome to be written. I mean, my personal opinion is that I could maybe read a little bit less of like, school drama, but that's just my opinion.
Um, I feel like yes, with the sequel thing, when the book is good, and it has a pretty good ending, you don't need a sequel. And usually the sequels are pretty bad.
It's true.
Yeah. And I also feel like there's a lot of books already on like, this is a really common thing, where a person goes to slay a dragon so that they can save the world.
I'd also maybe like to read a little bit less of characters having something that they desperately want in the beginning, and at the end, they get the chance to get it and they say no. It's difficult because it's a really good way to show that the character has changed and evolved. But as readers, sometimes we just want to see the character get what they want. Like we want to see Percy Jackson say yes to being a god, we want to see Peter Parker, this is a random movie reference, but we want to see Peter Parker say yes to being in the Avengers. And we want to see the character say yes. Even though it can be a huge way to show character evolvement. Like as readers, we wanted the character to be happy!
Right. Yeah.
I love that. I also am a big fan of happy endings. So... what's your opinion of alternative formats like graphic novels or audiobooks?
Oooh. Well, first of all, I've like never listened to an audiobook. So, but I really, really love graphic novels, like I truly do. Because I feel like if there's already a real book about it, that yes, the real book is very good. But I feel like in a graphic novel, you can actually see how the characters react and see what the characters look like, and see their facial expressions, which I think is very important.
Yes, I definitely agree with that. I think that graphic novels are amazing. I love them a lot. I always get super excited when a book that I love has been made into a graphic novel. I also just love graphic novels in general. When I was a kid, I I mean, I'm still a kid. When I was a slightly younger kid, I would spend like an hour in the graphic novel section of the library, just kind of basking in the amazing gloryness. That's a word now. Gloryness.
Love it.
Also, I think that I remember when I was really little having a conversation with this other kid. I was kind of arguing with him. I was like, you don't even read! and he was like, that's not true, I listen to all these audiobooks! And I was like, that's not reading! But now I think I definitely disagree with my younger self. I think that if audiobooks is the way you want to enjoy a book than I'm not going to stop you. I think that if that's what works for you, go ahead. I love listening to audiobooks in the car, or when I have a headache or when I just don't feel like making my eyes work. You're still enjoying the book. It's not any less of a experience.
I agree with you.
Even though I've never listened to one, I think it would also be good if they had like voice actors or something. Because it's sometimes important to hear like the, like the tone of voice that the person would have.
That's true.
All right, excellent. So here's kind of a serious question. What do you think about all of the book banning that is going on these days in school libraries and public libraries?
I think that it's really, really terrible. I think that, like I was saying earlier, an author like, takes part of their soul and part of their world and puts it out there for people to see when they're writing a book. And it's not anybody's business to say, this part of you doesn't deserve to be experienced by others, you don't deserve to share it. I think that everyone deserves to get to voice their opinions, even if some people disagree with them. And if I read a book about someone's opinion that I disagree with, I'm not going to say, Well, I'm poisoned forever, I'm going to say, I'm not going to finish this book, maybe. And I feel like people should just be able to accept that they're not going to agree with everything they read. And just because a book, maybe has a message that they disagree with, or talks about content that they aren't alright, with, like, I noticed that a lot of books containing LGBTQ characters or characters of color can get banned. And that's not okay to me, because those people deserve representation. I think that everyone deserves to have their stories be told. And I'm gonna say something a little bit like a hyperbole here. But I almost feel like book banning is not that far away from book burning.
So I agree and disagree. I feel like on some topics, yes, it is okay. On some topics, it isn't, because like, on some topics that are literally telling flat out lies about historic events, then yes, you should ban those. If someone says, like, something like the Holocaust did not happen, you should maybe ban that book. But books that are talking about something like people are banning now, like those are not okay to ban because those are real historic events that actually are scientifically proven that happened.
That's a really good point. I didn't think about that. I guess the only tricky part there is that who gets to decide which books should be banned. And then that's where it gets a little bit messy. But yeah, I didn't think about that.
I was thinking for what you just said, maybe the government should choose. But that can also get messy because stuff can happen.
Yeah.
And governments are just made of people.
Right. People have different opinions.
It's not like they necessarily know better than other people. But it's interesting, because Hudson, what you're saying sounds like you're thinking more about nonfiction.
And for fiction stuff, because it's fiction, then why would you need to ban it?
Yeah.
Unless it's fiction about a historic event telling lies about those historic event as a fiction book.
What do you think of the argument that some adults make that they are protecting children by banning books about topics that they find problematic?
This is what I think: they're probably just lying so they can get those books away.
I think children can protect themselves.
Right.
Children are not fragile enough that one word of something that is bad, I'm putting bad in quotes, will just break them. Children are strong, and children can form their own opinions. Like, if I read something that has an opinion, I'm not necessarily going to make that my opinion, because I have my own brain. And it's a real brain. And I think that you're not protecting us, we can protect ourselves. We deserve to get to make our own decisions about what we want to read. You can't decide for us.
Right.
All right, beautiful. How important are libraries to you personally? And how important do you think libraries are to society?
Well, to me, libraries are very important because they supply me with books, because that's their whole point. But I think to society, yes, it's important because for some things they're really important to read.
Libraries are so important to me. I love libraries. I've always formed a huge connection with whatever school librarian happened to be librarianing at school. I think that libraries are so important to society as well. Books are so important to society and libraries give access to huge ranges of books and opinions and voices and worlds, to everyone. And that's what makes them so incredible because they they provide you with books. I mean, how is that bad?
Right.
You know, as a librarian, I'm just eating this up with a spoon.
Oh, yeah.
So, why do you think it's important for Jewish kids to read Jewish books? And why do you think it's important for non Jewish kids to read Jewish books?
I think Jewish kids should read Jewish books so that they can learn more about their culture. And I think non Jewish kids should read Jewish books, so that they can learn more about other cultures.
So I think that it's really important for Jewish kids to read Jewish books, because, honestly, I think this for all different groups, no matter what we're talking about religion or race or gender, it's important for kids to see themselves reflected in media, as important as it is to get a taste of all different kinds of people, at the end of the day, it feels good to just read about people who are like you and makes you feel valid. I also think that Jewish kids reading Jewish books, it gives them a chance to learn about their heritage, and more about their religion. And I think that's really cool. But mostly, I just think, because it's important to give kids a chance to see themselves reflected in what they experience. It's also important for kids to see other types of people reflected in media, right, so that they know that like, it's not just people exactly like them in the world, and it might build kind of a more accepting inclusive mindset. Plus, especially when non Jewish kids maybe are learning about more serious things like the Holocaust, having books to explain that in a truthful way, might make them understand a little bit more just what Jewish people have gone through and the way that being Jewish influences lives.
What are the best Jewish books that you've ever read?
Well, first, I'm going to say, if you ask someone who loves books, what their favorite book is, they're going to want to mention like 15 books, I'm gonna cut back. But Sweep was a PJ Our Way book that I loved. It was about a chimney sweep named Nan, who ends up making friends with a golem. And it also talks about child labor, which is really interesting, but it's got amazing character moments, and it's just a really great book. I also loved Becoming Brianna, which is a book about a girl having her bat mitzvah.
Same.
Yeah.
Good book.
Yeah, it's so good. It's in a series that I love.
Yeah, I like that whole series.
It's called Emmie & Friends. I think another book is coming out pretty soon, actually. I'm really excited.
Really?
It's like something Rosie, I forget what the title is. But um, it actually really helped me while I was getting ready for my own bat mitzvah, specifically the part where I had to write by d'var torah, because the character was having trouble writing her d'var torah and procrastinating, and I was procrastinating. And so I ended up being able to take some guidance from that. So many good books.
Yeah, so one of my favorite books was Anya and the Dragon, which was really good, just because it's a certain plot that I like. Another good one was the Max Einstein series. That was a good series.
Well, I'll just mention that couple of the books you just talked about have actually been featured on the Book of Life podcast. I interviewed Jonathan Auxier about Sweep
Oh, really?
And I also interviewed Sofiya Pasternak about Anya and the Dragon.
No way!
So we agree on the high quality of those books. Awesome!
If you're still in contact with them, can you tell them that they're amazing? If they're listening to this podcast, you're amazing! I love you so much! Not in a romantic way! Can we edit that part out? But I love your writing. And I love your talent, and you're amazing. Keep up the good work!
Yeah!
I'm sure they're going to be really thrilled to hear you say that. So we just talked about a few specific titles that you like, Do you have any particular favorite authors of Jewish books or have just books in general?
Um, well, a favorite author of mine is Chris Grabenstein.
That's such a hard question. I love so many authors. Neil Gaiman is not an author of Jewish books specifically, but he's one of my favorite authors. He co wrote Good Omens with Terry Pratchett, which is a very not Jewish book. But um, it's actually one of my favorite books. And he also wrote books like The Graveyard Book. I've actually taken part of a master class of his, it's about writing. Neil Gaiman, if you're hearing this, you're the best. And I also really like Terry Libenson, as I was mentioning earlier. When I was a little bit younger. I love this author named Brandon Mull. Now, I still like him, but he's not maybe my favorite author anymore. I have so many favorite authors. Yeah.
Are there any particular books that you want to make sure to recommend that other kids like you should read? And I'm thinking of Jewish books in particular.
I could list so many.
I know, right?
Yeah. Well, one of them was actually recently on the Book of Life podcast called Whistle.
Yes, that was a great graphic novel superhero story.
Yeah. There's so many, I'm like literally just looking at my bookshelf right now.
I'm in a room that actually, it's one of the few rooms in our house that does not have a bookshelf, but it's also the quietest room in our house. So I also use it when I need a tiny bit of privacy, but um, I don't have my supply of books. I don't know what I'm going to do! But if I'm going to recommend one specific Jewish book in particular, I quite liked The Renegade Reporters, I believe was a PJ Our Way book.
Oh, I haven't read it yet. But I got it.
Oh, it's incredible. It has great character moments and a great character arc. It's amazing story that's partially about misinformation, and partially just about these awesome kids. It's a great book. It's written mostly in like ordinary text, but also partially in the form of like, scripts for this TV show that they're doing. It's really great. I would recommend it to anyone who loves books, specifically people who like making and organizing groups, making change in the world, recording your own shows, doing news, being a news anchor. In general, I think that if I wanted to hugely recommend any books, I would say either books that had amazing characters, books that dealt with like an important issue, or books that had diversity.
Yes!
This book kind of hit all three. So I definitely recommend it.
I also read The Renegade Reporters, and I was very impressed. It was a great story of activism with these student journalists, as you mentioned, they find out about some misinformation that's being spread. And they, they step up to the plate and they try to stop it, they really make change in the world. And I like it also that it's a casually Jewish book is what I would call because it's not about being Jewish, it just happens to have some Jewish characters in it. So I like that kind of representation too.
I feel like that's kind of one of the best sorts of representation because Jewish characters don't need to have their Judaism define them. It doesn't need to be the only thing that exists in their world. So I love that.
Do either of you still read picture books? And if you don't, why did you stop?
I do. I totally still do. I feel embarrassed about it sometimes. But you know what? When I'm having like, really rough moments, sometimes it's just kind of exactly what I need.
Yeah.
It brings back amazing memories. And it just kind of feels good. It's like book comfort food. They're fun. Like, there's no reason why older people shouldn't be able to enjoy like Elephant and Piggie or The Pigeon Drives the Bus.
That's a good series. That's a really good series!
Oh, it's so good. Yeah.
So for me, I agree with you very much, Ellery. When I'm having troubled moments, there's a couple of books that I just love so much still, like sad, but still like, heartwarming all at the same time. And when I'm in like, a tough moment, I love reading them.
Oh, yeah, that's amazing.
But also for some picture books. Like, I don't really read them anymore, because my reading level is just much higher than them. I just read different books.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's interesting, because, you know, obviously, I'm grown up, but I read picture books, and not only because it's my job, but I really enjoy them. I think that they are works of art. And sometimes they're very poetic, or they're very funny, you know, people have to work really hard to only say that much like, you know, as you are speaking, you know that it's hard to say less, it's easy to say a lot. It's hard to say just the right amount. And so I think writing a picture book is a real skill.
I definitely agree with that. One time I had an assignment, I had to write a paragraph on a specific thing. And I wrote like two pages, except I didn't put any, like indents or anything. So I was like, it's one paragraph. It's just a very, very long paragraph. It worked.
How important to you is the cover in terms of making you want to read whatever's inside, if you don't already know the book?
Well, there's the saying don't judge a book by it's cover.
But everybody does, right?
Kind of.
In the words of Mary Poppins, the cover is not the book. So open it up and take a look. And under the covers, you'll discover that a king can be a crook.
Yes, I look at the covers, but I still pretty much read the book, even if the cover looks like, annoying. And what I find is usually if the cover is like, confusing, it doesn't make any sense, then the book is usually pretty confusing.
Yeah. Although I do actually remember one case in which I really didn't like the cover of the book. But I loved the book, I actually read the book while trying not to look at the cover because six or seven year old me was like "must not ruin experience!"
I also hate books that have really confusing titles. Like there's a book that's like literally sitting beside me that just gave me the idea of a book that's called This Isn't What It Looks Like.
Oh, would that be by Pseudonymous Bosch?
Yeah.
This Book Is A Secret? Yeah.
I hate titles like that. They're like funny, but kind of annoying.
So I think that many adults have the idea that boys and girls want to read different kinds of books. Do you think that that's true?
No.
I think in some circumstances, maybe yes. But mainly no. Because I feel like there's some places where like, if the book is focused on like, a topic that only boys or only girls would really know about, then yes, but for most situations no.
I mean, I definitely have a little bit of mixed feelings about this. I know that we're always more attracted to characters that have more in common with us. So maybe like a girl will enjoy a book that has a girl in it. But other than that, the notion that boys and girls read different things makes me a little bit mad, because like, there are girls who like sports, and there are boys who like princesses, and that's kind of not okay to be like, girls can't like sports, because then that's just gender stereotyping. What maddens me the most is just the blatant separation and segregation of the genders. That maddens me.
Like how there's a survival book called The Big Bad Book for Boys or something like that.
Yeah. And also, I feel like I just need to drop in one sentence about non binary people that like, if we're gonna segregate books by gender, then what do we do about that? What do we do about people who aren't boys or girls? I just feel like the whole concept has a lot of problems. And I don't think it's worth it. Like, just let let the kids figure out what they want to read. You don't need to choose for them.
Right.
Well said. It's tikkun olam time, so this is your chance for a little bit of activism. And I'd like to ask each of you to share an idea for how to make the world a better place.
When I was thinking about this, I thought a little bit about, should I do something really big, should I talk about climate change or racism, or another like really huge worldwide issue? In the end, I decided to talk about something that's a little bit closer to my heart and just personal. I've struggled with anxiety a lot in the past few years. And I was really lucky to have just some amazing and supportive friends that were willing to talk to me about it. There can be a lot of stigma about talking about mental health. So I think for my tikkun olam, or call to action, I'd like to encourage people to ask questions, to learn a little bit more about someone that they care about, to show curiosity, to ask someone's perspective on something, to ask a question about someone. I don't want to encourage anyone to ask questions that someone isn't comfortable with. But I just like to encourage curiosity, because I think that if we all were just a little bit more okay talking about things, the world would maybe be a little bit of a nicer place.
Right. And I agree with you on that a lot. And I think yes, respecting people's boundaries is a very, very big thing.
Yeah.
Especially with all this stuff about racism and all that kind of stuff these days.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, good. And Hudson, do you have something that people can do to make the world a better place?
Yes. Recycle: reduce, reuse, recycle.
Yeah.
That's good advice. Excellent. Well, this has been so interesting to hear your thoughts. Ellery, Hudson, thank you so much for joining me today.
No, thank you.
Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for inviting me. This feels so professional and I feel like a real adult human.
Yes.
Thank you so much. There's still a part of me that's hoping that Neil Gaiman is listening to this. And if you are, you're awesome!
Yeah. Thank you so much.
[MUSIC, DEDICATION] This is Tracy Lopez...
And I'm Pamela Ehrenburg...
...authors of Detour Ahead. We'll be joining you soon on The Book of Life podcast. We'd like to dedicate this episode to transit workers and bus drivers in DC and everywhere.
[MUSIC, OUTRO] Say hi to Heidi at 561-206-2473 or bookoflifepodcast@gmail.com Check out our Book of Life podcast Facebook page, or our Facebook discussion group Jewish Kidlit Mavens. We are occasionally on Twitter too @bookoflifepod. Want to read the books featured on the show? Buy them through Bookshop.org/shop/bookoflife to support the podcast and independent bookstores at the same time. You can also help us out by becoming a monthly supporter through Patreon. Additional support comes from the Association of Jewish Libraries, which also sponsors our sister podcast, Nice Jewish Books, a show about Jewish fiction for adults. You'll find links for all of that and more at BookofLifepodcast.com Our background music is provided by the Freilachmakers Klezmer String Band. Thanks for listening and happy reading!
[MUSIC, PROMO] I suspect that you've never wondered what would draw together Janusz Korczak's Warsaw Ghetto orphanage and a village in the 1970s West Bengal. But Jai Chakrabarti not only pondered this, but skillfully join them together with an unlikely love story in his AJL Fiction Honor winning book, A Play for the End of the World. Join me for my conversation with him at Jewishlibraries.org/nicejewishbooks.