Today we love means affirmation kind of regardless of whatever choices are being made right so To love is to affirm.
Friends welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. If this is your first time listening, we are so happy you are joining us for a quick summary of what to expect. On this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness beauty and for this week love of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA. And I'm joined today by my friends and colleagues, Dwight Vogt, John Baltimore, Luke Allen and Tim Williams, guys. Great to be with you today on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to our topic today. And just having a great discussion with you we
are are going to our topic today is love. And we decided just to have a small little topic that we could, we could wrap up in about 45 minutes and just kind of explore all the depths of it, in short order. Joking on that one, but I, I do you know, what prompted us as we were discussing today's podcast was the fact that we're now into June and into this in the United States anyways into what they call an out Pride Month, which is kind of an amazing thing. When you think about it, no other event or holiday receives an entire month of attention that I'm aware of. But now because of the fact that we're into our fully postmodern secular, you know, Western life here we have an entire month to celebrate the LGBTQ plus movement. And and, you know what, as I was looking at that, I was reminded guys of the hashtag love wins. And I went back and did a little research on that, because, as you know, the the movement itself has taken that as its brand. And you still see that very often. You know, you see that on bumper stickers and hashtags on social media love wins. So I did a little I did a little research on that this last week and just kind of what what's the history of that this is not old history. This is this is history that just goes back to 2015 and the Obergefell versus Hodges Supreme Court ruling in the united states that legalized so called same sex marriage, as the law of the land in all 50 States for the first time in our history. And the Human Rights Campaign are the HRC which is the largest it's the world's largest LGBTQ activist organization. They're the ones that take credit for developing that hashtag hashtag love wins, and, and they caused it to go viral as a way of celebrating that that ruling. I'll just read a little bit from an article that I found on that. The Love Wins hashtag was the dominant message around the Supreme Court's marriage equality decision in June. And by the way, that's why we celebrate, so to speak, celebrate anyways, in June, Human Rights Council received overwhelming support and engagement from countless individual citizens prominent celebrities, including Taylor Swift, political leaders like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and businesses such as Ben and Jerry's ice cream. They all sent supportive messages about so called marriage equality to their millions of followers on social media using the hashtag love wins. It was not only written but it was spoken on countless news outlets throughout the day that that was announced that Supreme Court ruling everywhere people turned whether it was on the front page of their local newspaper or national news or nightly news or their Twitter or Facebook feeds, hashtag Love Wins appeared. And it became it became associated it really became to define the same sex marriage During the LGBTQ movement, and anyways guys, you um, you know all that history but I, you know I, I, I, there's something about it that causes me just pain, you know when I see it because they've taken the word love, and they've made it the centerpiece of their movement, and then the quote, it just raises the question, what do they mean by love? And how is that different from what we learn about love what love actually means in the Bible, and that's what we want to talk about today. But before we get into what the Bible says, I just want to ask you guys what, when when the Human Rights Campaign uses this hashtag love wins, and of course, everyone else now uses it as well. And it really has come to shape. I think in a powerful way in the culture, how people think about love. What what does it bring them on? What is what is what did they mean by love when they say love wins to describe it describe this movement?
Yeah, I mean, hashtag love wins. I remember that. I don't see that one as much anymore. But But I see the love is love all the time. You know. And I think that's the way they kind of defined it, you know, is Love is love. You know, we often talk about redefinition of words, I think a lot of times when you, when you in a postmodern world, when you detach yourself from truth, you're not actually really redefining words, you're just, you're just breaking them down. And there's no real redefinition that we see. At least, as far as I see. You know, like in what is a woman documentary that came out last year, there's no definition of woman, they've just kind of ruined the old definition. I see that here too. Love is love. That's a circular argument. That doesn't really mean anything. Sounds nice. Looks good. But it doesn't really mean anything. I think it's really interesting that that was only 2015. Also, because you mentioned Brock Obama and he ran originally back in 2008, saying he was against gay marriage. And then, you know, now we are here today. I also think it's interesting, the way that we came in 2015 from the whole Obergefell movement to now today talking about, you know, that almost seems like old news, you know, homosexuality, now we're on to all these other things, transgenderism, and you know, the, the list of the LGBTQ i A plus s something something, it keeps getting longer, you know, it's just, yeah, no, that's,
that's right, Luke, I do think they have, even if they don't define love, they have a certain understanding of what that means. I mean, they're using that idea. And maybe they're not explicitly defining it. And they're using circular arguments are circular definitions, like love is love, which was particularly helpful, but but they have something in mind, you know, what did they have in mind, guys for this? What is love? What do you think their understanding is?
It was interesting. As you're talking, Scott, I was thinking love wins. And I'm thinking I can buy into that hashtag love wins, because I say God is love. And I know at the end, God will get you a t shirt. And and yet, then I also know, yeah, but but but that's a great example of how I can say something and mean something completely different than another person can say the same, which is what we're talking about. We're saying, How can we be in agreement, but not completely, not in agreement, because we have different definitions. And it's just,
I would just say this at the outset, we we, as a society are now kind of using love to justify what we think, rather than the word love in the real depth of it, humbling us and realizing the true calling of love, is something that is so incredibly sacrificial and powerful. And and so we've diluted the true meaning of love and the true pursuit of what is true love. By doing this, and this is very typical of things in society. Today, we're reimagining something and redefining it based on a wider reimagining rather than pursuing the true full meaning of, of love and the sacrifice of Christ and in loving us. Lots more to unpack there.
Yeah. And just to clarify, when I said, when they tried to redefine a word like this in a postmodern world, and they don't really offer a definition, I think they do offer a definition but it's just such a watered down, diluted cloudy version, I think, you know, we see this with beauty. We see this with truth, these justice, justice, they're there. They're not there. They're redefining it, I guess, but it's just such a knock off version compared to you their original roots. Yeah.
Yeah, I think, you know, they're redefining it to be something that's religious say reduced to, you know, strong emotional feelings towards another person, you know, kind of Eros, you know, just I'm, you know, this kind of level of I feel passionate towards somebody. And so that's what love is, you know, it's just a strong feeling of attachment, you know, that you might have towards another person or even people I suppose, or even things, right. I mean, this is the thing. It's also secular in the sense that God, I think, is really removed from this, there's not any connection to the Bible or truth, ultimate objective truth or moral truth here. And so it's whatever we want it to be, you know, and so there's really no limits or constraints on it, you know, I suppose love winds could apply to my dog and I could marry my dog, right? You know, or whatever it is, I mean, who's to say or whatever, right? I mean, there's no boundary, there's no boundaries or more moral boundaries on it. Because it's disconnected from, from God and from truth. And it's kind of reduced to very strong emotional feelings. And honestly, that's not, that's not you know, if that's the case, that's not unique to the LGBTQ movement. I mean, you know, that's true for all people, right. And you you see this reduction of love very often in heterosexual relationships, where people get into a relationship because they feel super strongly passionate about that person. And, and then, you know, we temporarily, temporarily and we get married, and then all of a sudden, we get divorced, because I don't, I don't feel in love with her anymore, right. So I would say this is not, you know, unique to this movement, but it's something along those lines in my view. Anyways, that's what they've kind of reduced love to when they say love wins.
Hi, friends. Thanks again for joining us today. If you're enjoying the discussion, don't let the learning stop with you. Please consider sending this episode to a friend. If you'd like to learn more about what we do here at the DNA the disciple nations Alliance, I receive occasional updates on what God is doing in and through the DNA family around the world, we'd encourage you to sign up for our newsletter. To do so visit the link in the show notes where it says stay connected. And by the way on that newsletter, we will keep you updated on the progress of my dad's newest book. The working title is 10 words that transform culture. These as we're talking about today are 10 important words that have the power to transform culture. Words like love, justice, marriage, freedom, authority and truth. Speaking of books next week here on ideas have consequences. We will be releasing one of my favorite interviews that we have ever recorded with one of my favorite authors to talk about her newest book, The toxic war on masculinity. And yes, that is the one and only Nancy Pearcey, who is back on the show. Last time that she joined us to talk about her last book, Love thy body, the episode became the number one most listened to episode that we've ever released. So I know you guys won't want to miss next week's show that will be released next Tuesday, June 27 at 5pm Pacific Standard Time. And now back to today's discussion.
Well, Scott, I know you've done some extensive thinking on this and writing on it your new book, The 10 words book, and you mentioned loving your dog here recently and marrying your dog but we do love our dogs. So what does love you know, what, what?
What is love? Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that, you know, as I was researching for the 10 words book on this subject, why? I think because I'm coming out of an evangelical subculture. I think most evangelicals when we talk about the word love, we associate it with the Greek word, the New Testament Greek word agape, which is this idea of kind of selfless, self sacrificial action for the good or the benefit of another. And obviously you see that in the cross of Christ and so Absolutely that's you know, that's that's central to the biblical idea of love. But this idea that hey, I love my dog or I love my wife or I love pizza or I love taking hikes in the mountains that you know idea of love is a bit different that's kind of I get great joy you know, or I get great joy out of something or I I delight you know, I delight in something and love Yeah, and that actual what I found and this surprised me a little bit honestly, guys, is that, you know, that's really Will love in the Bible as well. Right? That kind of love is also spoken of quite commonly in the Bible. And so it did set up for me this kind of thought of, how are those two ideas connected? You know, are they connected? Or are they to really separate ideas? You know, I think most evangelicals today because the culture is kind of reduced love to the first one. This idea of love is pleasure, delight. Whatever brings me happiness. We've kind of said, no, no, that's not love. That's, that's a counterfeit. Real Love doesn't have anything to do with emotions or feelings. It just has to do with this raw choosing to do good for another even if I don't like them. I've often I've often heard that, like, I don't have to like you. I
just have one love you. It's like, just go read Song of Solomon.
Right. Right. Right. So anyways, yeah, that's what I was finding. Do I you know, that, that both of these ideas are actually in the Bible? So
I think I grew up on German love, just do it.
Just do it doesn't matter. If you feel like you want to do it. Just do it.
Yes. Just be nice.
Yeah. So I do think, yeah, I think maybe we can talk about these two things a little bit. Because I, you know, I was kind of struck in the Bible about where, you know, that first kind of love is, is spoken up, there's several places where it's referred to there's, you know, the entire book of the Song of Solomon really is kind of devoted to that kind of love. But you see it in a lot of other places as well. And I think this kind of love is the kind of love that it's not the kind of love it's it's the understanding of love. That's common to actually all cultures around the world, frankly, like, you know, I can be almost anywhere in any culture, and people would understand me if I said, I love pizza, or whatever it is, right? They think, oh, yeah, yeah, I love I love pizza, or sushi, or whatever it is, you know? Like, that's pretty commonly understood, right? What do you guys hear when I say that? Do you agree? Is that something you see in the scriptures? How do you see that? Give me your thoughts on that?
Well, I was thinking of the idea of pleasure and delight, you love something that gives you pleasure and delight. So you love coffee, and you love your dog. Right? And that takes me back to Genesis one where he says any God made the trees and they were pleasing to the eye. And so God in His creative work, created all of these pleasures, and delights that we get to enjoy. So it's coffee, and it's strawberries with cream. And so he set this up that we would experience that kind of love. It's not just there for no reason. It's actually sourced in his design. So that that's kind of remarkable. For me.
It is remarkable to I'm glad you brought that up. I agree. And, and it's not just that he set up a system where we would take delight in these things that God has made. And I obviously, in God himself, you know, first and foremost, but he it takes delight, right? Exactly. So God being a God of love is a god. Part of what that means is that he takes delight in his creation. He takes delight in his relationships within the Trinity. I think there's great delight. You know, Jesus says, in his high priestly prayer before the cross, he's praying to His Heavenly Father, and he says, this kind of remarkable thing. He says, You loved me before the foundation of the world, there was this idea of love it pre existed creation itself, and there was a delight in that relationship within the Trinity. And, and then that extends to to us remarkably God. There's a lot of verses actually, that talk about God taking delight in people. And especially in his, you know, his chosen people that he's redeemed, you know, he takes great delight in them. And so, yeah, I just think that's kind of a remarkable thought that is worth pondering a bit.
You know, and the fact that God, I think of Acts where Paul said, and we're his offspring, he's not just talking about Christians. He's talking about all humanity. There we are God's creative offspring. And he made us which is what you just said. And then you think about I've got a 18 month old grandson in my home right now. And as soon as he was well before he was born, even but but he is the delight and pleasure of his parents because they created him, they they made and you always see that in a parent, you never have to, you know, for a mother to birth a child and it's just automatic. There is love and delight and pleasure in that that little human being she just gave birth to. And I think that's built into us, by it the God of the universe.
Absolutely do it. And it's just, it's a beautiful thing. I'm so grateful that God created it. In this way, you know, that we can we can take we can find joy and happiness and delight, and all of that's kind of tied into this concept of love. But it's, yeah, go ahead.
I was just thinking of another example, as an in romance, your first The first thing you notice in someone else, is it's a feeling it's an emotion. It's It's love on that level, Oh, I love this about this person, you know. And that's, that's the spark, the thing that catches your attention. Of course, as we're going to show in this conversation, it needs to go way deeper your understanding of love, but it needs to start somewhere to, you know, you couldn't. If love was only, you know, well, we'll define it here in a bit, but just, you know, service for someone else, or, you know, seeking the highest good and someone else, you wouldn't really have that first attraction and romance of, of noticing someone. So it's both.
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's right. Dan, or, yeah. Any thoughts from you on this, this aspect that we're talking about? Because I think I don't know, I just reflecting on my own evangelical upbringing, I think I've been kind of trained to kind of dismiss this, you know, and to say, this is an important. This isn't real love, right? This isn't that sacrificial love that loves kind of, despite, you know, any kind of feelings or emotions. But But I, you know, as I looked in the scriptures, I thought, No, I don't, I don't really see it that way. You're,
you know, as we're having this conversation, my thoughts are really circling to where Augustine talks about the way our loves should be ordered. And I almost feel like it kind of brings the two together. Because in God, he's the creator of all of this, that brings us pleasure, he is the source of everything that that brings us pleasure, as James says, Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. And so all of this good is, is there in him to be enjoyed, you know, not merely for some scripted mundane action, but he is a God of delight. And if we put him in his in his proper place, and if we look for things that he intends for us to truly enjoy, now we can, you know, find devious things to try and love and to enjoy, and they will inevitably disappoint us. If we put God first and seek what he has designed for us to love, then we will have that delight. And then because his character is one of service of commitment of covenant, then it also demands that same outcome. So if he's, if he's our source, if he's the root of our love, of both our delight, then he's also the source of our commitment, as well.
Jim, excellent, that was so well said. And I, you know, I think that you're bringing up St. Augustine is helpful here. Because, as I understand him, he he was, he was saying, yeah, just what you said that, you know, that we take great delight in many things in this world. You know, beauty and food and, you know, relationships with, you know, with people, but if you keep pushing back, there's a source, right, there's this source, this kind of ultimate font or, you know, wellspring of all of these good things. And that's God Himself. And that's, you know, like, you say that, that's, that's the, that's because it's the source of all that's good, it's the highest, it's should be the highest love and if we put our love if we, if we kind of rest on anything short of God, we'll end up being disappointed because it's not the source. Right? You know, it's, it's, there's a deeper source and so we have to go all the way back. And I think that ties into the great you know, the great commandment, you know, and really the the, the first couple of commandments in the 10 commandments which are all about loving God, right? That's, that's the supreme duty, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And when it's understood in this way, that's not because God is some kind of egotist, who, you know, needs us to love him. It's because he knows that our greatest delight is only going to be found in that one source, you know, God himself. Amen. And so, one last thing on this, you know, I, when I do these research research into these words, I will often use the Webster's 1821 28 Thank you 1828 dictionary, the whole American Library, old homeschool dictionary, which I love that, you know, because we used it a lot in homeschooling scholars always have that on the shelf. It's so funny. No, it's such a powerful dictionary, because he uses biblical definitions in you know, in understanding these words. So I, I was curious, I went to his definition of love in the dictionary there and, and it always focused, it was so interesting, he led with this understanding of love, love as delight, as pleasure as that sort of thing that gives us happiness. And you didn't, there wasn't even like, I had to kind of dig down pretty deep to find anything about the kind of our understanding our contemporary current evangelical understanding of agape, you know, this kind of self self sacrificing, emotionless choice. And just wasn't there was that's not what Webster had in mind, actually, which I thought was kind of interesting. Anyways, it just got me thinking too, about how, you know, even as Christians were shaped by the times that we live in as Christians. And I think because I think again, because love has been so reduced to just pleasure, right, as we were talking about the LGBTQ movement, love wins. You know, we kind of almost discounted that. And so that's not important at all, you know, we need to Yeah,
it's kind of like, you know, in 1828, it was assumed the commitment was assumed. And now it's kind of the opposite for us where, like, we've swung the pendulum to the other side, because commitment is no longer assumed. So that's our emphasis and love the affection and attraction. That part's obvious, so we don't necessarily speak it.
Yeah, I think that's right, Tim. But that said, I mean, there is this whole other aspect of love that, you know, that I really, you know, that's true, that is, you know, what people understand as a GOP A, this kind of idea of sacrificing or giving of oneself and up regardless of how they respond almost, you know, giving of oneself for the good of another. And to me that this is also like an incredibly powerful idea. And as I was reflecting on love defined in this way, or understood in this way, it really struck me that you don't find this kind of love. This is not common to all people in all cultures, okay. Right. This is not innate, in our fallen sinful human world, right? You don't just see people acting in this way, self sacrificing for the good of another. You know, we do kind of the opposite, right, you know. But, but but this idea is sourced in God alone, like this is this is, you know, when the apostle John says, God is love, I think it's talking about this, that in God's very nature is this desire this, this willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of others. And, and we don't see we don't see this, I think anywhere except for the God of the Bible and his revelation, right, and the sort of cultures that have been shaped by the Bible, over many generations, you'll see some, you'll see this, right, you'll, you know, people will, will live this out at some level. But but it's only in those places, right? It's just again, it's not like, for example, when I lived in Japan for a few years, I, they had a concept of love. In Japan, it's not a nation or a culture that's been heavily shaped by the Bible, you know, but their understanding of love was that you had a phrase or an expression called own gitI which, which is kind of like I scratch your back, you scratch my back. So they would love right, but they expected something in return. Right? So it's a very much a gift given culture. And so they would express love in the form of gifts. But yeah, you're expected to kind of give back right that was kind of expected. And I thought that's very that would be very common to people all over the world. This kind of like I'll do something good to you. But you got to do something good to me this idea that no, even if you do nothing good, I'm still going to love you. Right? That comes from A Bible that comes from God and His character nowhere else. So let's talk about that a little bit. Because this is a really remarkable, very powerful, biblical idea. Go ahead.
Yeah. That said, I still think that and you've alluded to this, it's imprinted into us though, that idea of serving and giving to those we love because I think of, again, I'm going back and watching my daughter love her son. And he doesn't always return love to her. Oftentimes he doesn't. But it's built into her to, to do what it takes to help her little boy grow up and grow healthy. And so she sacrifices asleep, and he sucks practice sacrifices or health. So I mean, we do see that in the real, yeah, real world is sourced in God that that, you know, and Darrell makes a big deal out of this and his grand design teachings that it's God has seen in the maternal heart of the woman towards her children. And it's sourced in God ultimately. But yeah, I think Agape is It's powerful. It's powerful. And that should, that should always be our expression, from delight, and pleasure. How do I then I
stand corrected, Dwight, I appreciate you bringing up that kind of maternal love, especially and paternal as well, but I do think that is kind of inbuilt. Right. So even in cultures that aren't heavily shaped by the Bible, you still see that right? I mean, there's this kind of, I'm going to do what's good for my child, kind of no matter what, and, you know, and but it's not perfect, either. It's not perfect, correct?
You know, yeah, I think you see it, but in Christian civilizations, you definitely see it clear, you know, countries that were based off of Judeo Christian values, after a war is over, for example, they'll go in and help rebuild that country. You know, if they go take over a people group, they'll do it differently. You know, you see that as well. It's interesting, you brought that up with a mother though, the white and how this this concept of love, I would say is kind of common grace, we do all have a written on our heart to an extent. And I heard once in an atheist argument with evolutionary biologists, and they said it was a Christian, he was like,
proving that humans weren't evolved animals in the fact that you'll never see an animal anywhere in the world, go out and help another animal that it doesn't know at an expense to itself, you know, this is not, they're not creating the image of God. So they're not gonna do that. It's kind of clear. But so this is something unique to, to humans. As we're talking about this, one of my favorite definitions of love. This, this type of love is St. Thomas Aquinas. And he said, To love is to will the good of another, I think you I think you mentioned that earlier, dad. But that I think that's such a clear definition. And you could add to the end of that, to love is to will the good of another, even at a perceived expense to yourself.
Yeah, we in Grudem, in his systematic theology defines love as self giving for the benefit of others. And so that's very similarly to what you're seeing there with St. Augustine. So that's a very biblical, kind of deeply biblical idea, this idea of self giving, for the benefit of others, and, you know, I was reminded of, you know, the parable of the Good Samaritan, which we're all familiar with. And, you know, this, this setup for that, for Jesus telling the parable of the Good Samaritan is all about love, right? Because you have a teacher of the law come up to him and say, you know, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus turns the question back to him, What do you say? And he says, Love, right? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbors yourself? Right? And Jesus response? Correct. You know, that's, that's, that's the right answer. That's, that's it. Just a pause on that for a quick second. That's the foundation of everything you love. It's at the foundation of everything else, the greatest commandment, you know, that's what we gotta get him. Right. Yes, that's exactly right. And that's
why that comes first. We're not able to truly love our neighbors as ourselves unless we understand that, that that love of God, and true to the sort of true charity comes in as well. Compassion, right? Yes, I think I learned when I read Marvin Alaskey his book The tragedy of American compassion, that compassion means to suffer with, well, many how many people are willing to suffer with, you might express love in the sense of boy, you feel bad for someone, but it's truly other centered love. It's truly compassionate love, it's truly being willing to sacrifice and self giving for the benefit of another To serve someone in, in, in great need, and, you know, in sacrifice your own comfort, or whatever, and so that that's the kind of true charity that only gospel centered love, love can lead us to.
And that we're charity, John is is love. I mean, it's a synonymous word with love. And you're right. I mean, so going on, you know, with this parable, you know, the, the teacher of the law says, Okay, well, who is my neighbor, if I'm to love my neighbor as myself, who's my neighbor. And it's, you know, on that occasion that Jesus tells the parable of the Good Samaritan. And that's just amazing, because this is this picture in this story of what love is, right? Here's this man who's been beaten up and left to die on the side of the road, and that represents all of humanity. And at some level, right, that's, that's, that's in this broken, condition, dying, you know. And here comes this Samaritan. And well, first of all, you see these religious leaders, you know, passing by, right, they're not expressing love, they've got an agenda, they're busy, they don't have time, that it's interesting, the they don't look, I think this is kind of fascinating. They don't look down at the man dying on the side of the road, they just keep their eyes focused ahead of them on whatever they're doing on that particular day. And that that kind of self selfish kind of thing is not love, right? It's the opposite of love. That love, here comes the good Samaritan, he's going to demonstrate what it means to love your neighbors yourself, which again, is at the core of everything. So the first thing he does is he stops actually, when he gets up to this person dying on the side of the road, he stops. And he looks. And I learned this too, from Darrow Darrow talks about this Hebrew word, yada, which means to know. And sometimes it's used kind of, to as a, to describe sexual intercourse, you know, Adam knew his wife, right? And they can see the sun or whatever it is. It's this word, yada. But it means it's not really just, it's not, it's this idea of seeing someone deeply seeing them for who they truly are. Right? looking deeply. It's this kind of it's In this is love, right? It's looking at somebody looking deeply, kind of getting yourself into their shoes, trying to understand what life is like, in their circumstances, in their shoes deeply. And this is what the Good Samaritan does, he stops he sees, he enters in this John, you're exactly right, by defining compassion is suffering together with he takes action, right? You know, he doesn't just throw some dollars at the guy he, you know, he suffers with him in the sense that whatever he was doing that day, he put aside, he picks him up, you know, bandages his wounds, puts him on his donkey takes him to the end, leaves money with the innkeeper comes back to check on him, right. And Jesus is telling us this story to tell us this is what love is, right. I mean, this is that's what he's doing. This is love. This is what love looks like. Right? This is what it means to love your neighbor. Right? And then again, this is very much a this is coming from God, this is the way God loves, right? Because, again, we're all very much broken on the side of the road, and God could have stayed up in heaven and just said, Oh, my God, it's too bad Darn, you know, but he didn't he entered into this brokenness, and you see this with Jesus, he comes right down and enters into the brokenness suffers together with you know, the paralytic the blind person, the leper, and weeps with them, and then eventually goes to the cross and dies, right for all of us. I mean, that's, that's love. I mean, so when John in the Gospel of John says, you know, we're to, unless we, unless we do that to our neighbors, right, unless we demonstrate that kind of love, that compassionate kind of love. We're not truly loving, you know. So sorry, guys. I'm kind of on a ramble there. But you this is just such a powerful biblical idea that again, I just think you don't get it anywhere else. Go ahead. Well,
when we were talking about this, we're gonna talk about this subject on the podcast, I started wrestling with this idea of the Agape love your near enemy, love the unlovely. And then this idea of delight and pleasure, and I'm like, Well, how did those possibly connect there's times where you just divorce it completely. You have to just and then I'm thinking, right, is that is that true? And then I'm thinking, Well, I had an interesting situation. Last week, I, I, a young lady called me and asked for help with her car. And she's the daughter of a friend of a good friend of mine who died of cancer. And my response was, Oh, my goodness, I would love to help you And my heart just swelled with the privilege of helping his daughter. And, and I think, well, she's not my daughter, you know, I mean, I like her. She's a nice girl. And she's, you know, we don't see very often. But I knew that that my friend Jade, delighted in her and took great pleasure in her. And I think there was something about knowing that she was his delight, and he was the person I loved. It transferred to me somehow. And I'm wondering if that's not how we love our enemies, that we can somehow go back to this image bearing concept and go, this is a person who God delights in, and I don't, but they he does. And he's gonna, you know, he died for this person. Anyway, that's how I started rustling in my own mind. How do I, how do I connect, loving your enemy with God's delight and pleasure? And I'm thinking, well, he does delight and pleasure in his children, even my enemies, and somehow that helped a little bit. So
I really am glad that you were wrestling with that Dwight, because that's that's what I was wrestling with, to like, how do these ideas that seemed kind of on one level, so different, you know, the light pleasure. And then this kind of self sacrificial, it's self sacrificial parable of the Good Samaritan kind of love, how do those fit together, the Bible talks about them as if they do, but they can seem so different. So I appreciate you wrestling with that, you know, they they
go back to the image bearer, you know, God created that person. Somehow.
That reminds me of, Tim, when you were talking about ordered loves, and how God's love for us should be the basis of any other love. It reminded me of that, you know, famous thing is, right now is love yourself, you know, you know, every Disney movie out there. And you know, if you have a problem, anything, just love yourself more, and choose your own destiny, that kind of stuff. Yeah. But to an extent, we should, we should love ourselves, you know, honor your body. That's Biblical. But if you just, like look into yourself, to find that love for yourself, you're not going to find it. You have to you have to direct it to the source. You have to see who you are to, as God sees you. You know, you were made. When God made us, he said, You were very good. He takes delight in us. We are image bearers of Him, He created us where his art pieces, you know, that's where you derive a love for yourself. Not just looking inwards and staring into the you know, sinful nature of your of yourself.
You know, I, I thought how Yeah, when you think about an enemy, and you know that, how can you derive pleasure or delight in loving an enemy? I mean, those things seem really contradictory. But I was thinking about that famous story of Corrie 10, boom, you know, and which has had such an impact on me. And you know, obviously, you guys are many, many others as well. And, you know, Corrie 10, boom, this famous Dutch Christian woman during World War Two, right, who her family hides Jews in Holland. And as a result, she's eventually taken and put into a German concentration camp with her sister who she loves. And her sister gets sick and eventually dies in that concentration camp because of mistreatment at the hands of the Nazis, and particularly one guard. And then, after the war is over, she finds herself back in Germany ministering to German Christians and others who are so broken and destitute. And she's talking to them in one on one occasion about forgiveness. And up comes that very guard who doesn't recognize her, but she recognizes him. And, you know, he says something along the lines of SR. I'm so grateful for you telling us about this biblical concept of forgiveness. What an amazing thought that the God of the universe would forgive us for our sins, you know, and he's thinking of what he literally had done during these concentration camp years. Would you forgive me? I mean, he literally asked her that, would you forgive me for my sins, you know? And she says that her first response was just this revulsion. Like, there was nothing in her because she he's an enemy, right? He was responsible for the death of her beloved sister. There's just this revulsion like I will never forget. I mean, that's the initial reason I will never forgive you. I could never do that. But But then she just had talked about it right? How God how God does this, right. He loves so of course, she's in this dilemma. And she prays, right I need power from you God to love him because I can't And right I don't have it in me to do this. But you know, she, to her credit trust that God can give her the power to do it. So she preys on the spot, God give me power to forgive this man. And then she talks about how she lifts up her hand to him come almost involuntarily, to shake his hand. And when they shake hands, and she says, I forgive you, she, she talks about how it was like electric, like there was this electric current that flowed through her. And it brought her with this is this is the point I'm trying to make her go abroad, her incredible joy, like delight, like, like, oh, my gosh, something so powerful. So supernatural happened in this moment, and it brought her incredible joy. And so that Dwight that tied it together for me a little bit, right? So. So somehow, I guess, in God's design, that when we love sacrificially, and you brings joy, it brings the light, why, I don't know God created it in that way, you know. And even Jesus talks about this, when he talks about, you know, in the gospels, for the joy set before Him, He endured the cross, right? He, he died, even for enemies, his enemies, rebellious human beings, for joy, for delight, is delight that was set before him, you know. So they are tied together, it's kind of remarkable, actually, when you think about it, it's really, it's really remarkable, actually,
I would make a comment to say that, you know, love desires, what's best for people, you know, so love is, as we talked about loving our enemies, we don't love them for the sake of what they're doing for what they're in the midst of. But we love them, because God loves them, because we, we know from the scriptures that they are trapped, you know, by, they've been deceived by the enemy, and that they're not happy and that they're not flourishing. And that, yeah, we want, we want what God wants for them. So we seek that and pursuing this,
this, this gets the concept of love is a choice, as opposed to love as a feeling. And it's only because of the power of Christ in us that we can make those kinds of hard choices to love that way. And God honors that and rewards us with that, with that deep joy and satisfaction, and blessing the other person being in being a witness like this. So it's all part of His love for us. And it only emanates from his love for us, that we can love others that way in such a such a such a powerful way. So attention
exactly, John and it changes the world. I mean, this is the kind of love that is revolutionary, that's that's that when you see it put into practice like this. There's no answer for it on the human level. It's only finding finding its source and God and it really does bring about powerful change in people's lives and entire nations or cultures as well. Yeah, like
to say love is the most powerful force in the world, we want to think of other powerful forces, and weapons and things like that. But, you know, love is the most powerful force in the world. And because we're fallen creatures, we don't live in a world that way. And we have the kinds of conflicts we have. But there is no doubt that that the Lord's love for the world is the most powerful force ever. And he has implanted that in us that if we are faithful to Him, we we too, can be that kind of love to others and be that kind of perfect love the cast out the fear that we might have to do otherwise, or the punishment that we have in ourselves by not not being loving.
John, I just want to I just want to say something about your comment there about love being the most powerful force in the universe, because that's so countered to what, what we believe predominantly in the west today, right? You know, I was thinking about that, because, you know, in my book, why social justice is not biblical justice. You know, I really took this deep dive into kind of the contemporary woke or Marxist kind of worldview, that's, that's really predominant today. And what you see as kind of the ultimate kind of what's the what's at the center of everything you definitely don't see love. What you see is power, right? That's, that's its power. It's in its power to oppress for the benefit of others, right? It's this kind of idea that, you know, I'm going to take advantage of you you're or another group You know, in order to get privileges for myself or my group, and if the tables can be turned by that group, that's what they're going to do. But at the end of the day, that's all there is. And what struck me as I did my dive into that was that there's no, there's no, there's no basis for love like that, that love doesn't factor into that worldview or system at all. And it's just so it's, that's what makes it so horrible and so destructive is that it's at the end of the day, it's all about, um, you know, it's, it's gaining power, so I can impress you, right? Or vice versa. Right. That's all there is to it. And in Yeah, that's a horrendous lie, right? Because just like you said, John, power isn't at the at the source of everything. It's love. You know, it's it's love is the most kind of powerful thing, if you will, that exists. So sorry, a little comment on that. I just, I think I just, I think today in our contemporary worldviews we don't, there was no real basis for it, you know, this idea of love, at least is we're talking about here, this biblical idea of love.
I like to go back to something Tim said, and you as well, Luke, you're talking about Aquinas and OT willing the good for the other person or doing what's best for the other person. And I think, you know, many of us grew up worked in food for the hungry, and we saw a lot of helping going on. But helping isn't always, you know, sometimes helping hurts. And
it's got he wrote a book about that somebody
did some friends of ours wrote a book about that, but, but I'm just thinking, of the importance of wisdom being tied to love, so that when we love we love well, and if you're, if you're moving towards somebody's best, God's best for them, it takes a tremendous amount of wisdom, especially whether you're a parent, whether you're a leader of an organization, you know, that that need for wisdom, so that you love well. And I don't know that we always think about those two together.
No, Dwight, I think putting it into the context of contemporary charity, I hate to say this, but so much of what motivates contemporary charity isn't like, truly the good of the other, the person that we're trying to help. It's how that act of charity makes me feel, right. This is kind of the this is kind of the the corruption of love. Right? You know, it makes me feel great, you know, it brings me I guess, where it's the reduction of love to just delight, it makes me feel happy and delight, I'm delighted to do that kind of holy, regardless of what actually happens to the person that I'm trying to help, right. So you can, you know, you can do things that just create dependencies, or whatever it is, and it doesn't really matter. It's kind of what I don't how do I feel about about it. And that's not true. That's not true love is your sanctuary.
And as an example of that, that's one of the understandable but unfortunate outcome sometimes of short term mission trips that aren't properly thought through and, and all they don't, they don't really empower the recipient. They make the people who go feel good about going it's nothing wrong with feeling good about going but that's not the ultimate objective. That's a that's an that's a nice result. But that's not the purpose for for going in the first place. Yeah, you know, it just tells us loves love has so many practice, it's all about the again, self giving for the benefit of others just want just one other example, I'm not even sure there's a little bit off track, but Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, fame, he counseled people, to be really careful about doing jobs that you're passionate about, if the opportunity isn't there, and you need to get to work. Or maybe you really haven't looked at your giftings properly or whatever he he says something like, don't, don't do the job you love, love the job you do. Learn to sacrifice learn to get good at it, learn to be committed to it, learn to have to defer gratification, and you will learn to love the job that that you do. That's so mean meaning meaning you'll take delight in it, that delight in it. Yeah, you'll take a lot and you'll learn to, to love the sacrifice and the journey that you've gone on. And the outcome of that rather than just the emotion of it. You know, I like designing something, I don't like building something. Well, no, you're called to build it. So, again, that might that's not ideal. That's a that's a that's a
that's a great example, John of how those two tied together, you know, we're back to this question. How do these two things kind of come together these two ideas of love self sacrificing and taking delight in you know, and I think that that's a great example of that. It's it's really powerful. Yeah. I want to bring up one other thought, guys, you know, we can continue to talk. But I do think it's really important to bring this other aspect of love into play that the kind of love that God has is a kind of love that, you know, is there's a faithfulness that goes along with it kind of a persevering rate, kind of a commitment, if you will, I'm going to kind of commit to you, regardless of what what you do or what happens, I'm going to be faithful to you, that that's kind of central to this idea of God's love. And you see it expressed in the biblical idea of covenant rights. So I'm going to, it's kind of the idea that God's going to set his love, he's going to choose to love a people, not because they're worthy of that love, you know, because they're particularly good or anything like that, but But it's his choice. He's going to choose to do it, and he's going to do it in a way that is committed. And you see this in the New Testament with the people of God, the church, you and I, in famous passages like Romans eight, right that, you know, nothing can separate us from the love of God in our Lord Jesus Christ. You know, neither death nor life nor hardships, nor you know, does somebody have that verse memorize, I really should never, you know, it culminates with nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord, You know, Tim, are you about ready to quote that from memory? They're almost, almost. Well, at one point, I had that down, I need to go back and refresh. But but it's that idea, right? That this, this, there's this, there's this, I'm, you know, I'm committed to you. I'm not, there's nothing that's going to separate you from my love. Yeah. And you can rest in that you can be assured of that. And I think that's a really important aspect. And, you know, the place where we see that in human relationships, that reflection in human relationships that God sets up is the marriage covenant, right. And, again, that marriage, marriage is that relationship that's created by God before the fall, right, the marriage of Adam and Eve, you see. And so it's predates the fall, it's part of God's design. And marriage includes that kind of covenant, right? That kind of covenant that promise, kind of, I'm gonna love you, for better or worse, right? But it's, even if things get bad, really bad, I'm gonna stick with you, and you can rest in that you can take, you can be assured of that. And I think marriage is actually a place to going back to eight of how these two kind of seemingly opposite ideas can kind of come together. I think marriage is another example of that. Because like you said, Luke earlier, you know, often marriages begin with romance with feelings, right? I feel attracted to you, right? And it's in the Bible doesn't like say, oh, that's bad. It's, I mean, again, the whole book of the Song of Solomon is just kind of this. You know, just look at look at how wonderful this is this romantic love, you know, it's, it's wonderful. It's fantastic. It's how God created us. But, but then that is to kind of culminate into this commitment, right, this kind of covenant with the marriage ceremony and the promise, right, and the exchange of rings, right. And so then it moves into this other kind of love, which is more like agape, like, I'm gonna be committed to you regardless. Even if you get sick and you're in the hospital, or you're a paraplegic, or whatever it is, you know, I'm still you know, you and I, I may not fit, you know, right. It's that that's not love of feeling that's love of commitment there, you know. So they tie together. Any thoughts on that? Guys? I think you see them both there.
Yeah, I think especially I was thinking of the marriage relation as well. And, at least in my experience, that the covenant allows, I mean, in real human relations, you have challenges in conflict at times, but with a covenant, you can go back to a place of love and affection. And so many times in marriage, it's like, okay, we differed on this, we struggle with this, we got through it, but then there's a bond that grows in there, and that delight and affection often is there again, and but it was made possible.
You know, exactly do it. It comes back in a powerful way, this delight, but in a different way than it was at the beginning when it was romance, and it was attraction, right, right. But in some ways, deeper and more profound. I've noticed this amount, right, and
the covenant makes that possible, because otherwise you would never go there again, or you wouldn't get there.
I heard you
go ahead. Sorry, Tim. I was just gonna say it also gives us as individuals opportunities for personal growth that we don't otherwise have, you know, when you have that committed relationship when you're married when you got somebody in your household, you know, they're, they're gonna hold up the mirror to you at times, you know, help you understand yourself and your own growth opportunities are going back to something you were saying earlier, Scott, I mean, it just the prophetic message of Hosea I feel like is another, you know, opportunity for us to see God's commitment to us even when we are yeah and faithful, unlovable, pursuing our our own misdeeds.
Yeah, that's part of God's love this kind of this faithfulness, this persevering, faithful love. I mean, you see these words appear in you know, the famous chapter where the apostle Paul describes love right, and love perseveres, right. I mean, it's one of the words, it's used to describe true love, it's, you know, kind of hopes, all things, believes all things, trust all things. So, yeah, but I was talking back to what you're saying to I, you know, I was talking to a young couple, they've just been married maybe a couple of years. And they were talking about how they were in that phase of their relationship where they, you know, the romance was gone, I guess, are largely just kind of gone. And now and it's just stages over honeymoon stages over right. And now they're kind of into the grind. And, and they were just talking about, oh, well, now, it's just all just gotten it out, you know, this commitment, you know, this kind of this. I know, you know, like, no more delight, right? We just have to get it out. And I thought I thought I think I can see why they're saying that at that point. But what they're missing is, like you were saying, Dwight, you know, that kind of long love of faithfulness, brings back even greater delight, right? And so they've got that to look forward to, but they don't see it. And I just want everyone to kind of like understand that, like, delight is part of this thing, you know, all the way through, not just at the beginning. Amen. Yeah, it's different. Yeah. Go ahead, John.
I had a friend that he's always had people come up to him and say that a marriage is a 5050 proposition. And I need to learn how to get to that with my wife. I'm too impatient. And I'm too selfish. I need to get to that 5050 proposition. And he in those people would be waiting for my friend to say, Yeah, I agree. And he said, Absolutely not. Marriage is not a 5050 proposition. Marriage is 100, zero proposition. You know, whoring yourself out for the other one we'd never will get there only God can do that. But but that's the idea is that it's a sacrifice for one another, it's not just finding a happy ground in the middle, because you won't, you'll have a gap chasm there in the middle of you, if you think that's what it is really, certainly
modeled for us, you know, in Christ. You know, 100, zero. So yeah, as much as you know, marriage is a model for Christ and the church and a husband and a wife. We need to be prepared with that same mindset.
Yeah. And what's so cool about that, though, is back to what we were just saying is when you give 100% of yourself, when you when you desire to live in the way that God created us to live to live in his order in his instructions, it brings about actual, you know, pleasure, like emotional pleasure. It's awesome. There's contentment, there, there's joy, there's flourishing. You know, a lot of people when they have this shallow definition of love as only feelings, they're like, how is the loving God, give you guys so many rules to follow. And the response there is because he's given us a structure, a framework for how to live life, knowing that if we actually do that, it brings about actual joy, it brings about deep flourishing, it brings about happiness, true happiness, the
benefit of order that we say,
and the miracle of the Corrie 10 Boom story that she can, she can do the right thing. She says, Okay, I will forgive this guard. And bingo, God blesses her with the gift of joy. You know? Yeah, doesn't always happen that dramatically. But it's, it's what he does.
It does, though. You know, it does. I've seen this in even minor conflicts when people make the choice to forgive and to love. There's this incredible you know, joy that that happens. And God is glorified in that too, which is very powerful, you know. So, guys, this is really great. Such a good discussion. And so we've been talking about these two aspects of love that you see in the scriptures. Love as pleasure, delight. aid the source of happiness and joy. And this idea of love as self sacrificing service for the good or the benefit of another, and how those aren't really, you know, they're different ideas, but they really are. They come together in this, this kind of holistic picture of biblical love. And I just think it's so, so profound and so powerful, but I'd like to, to kind of bring us bring us home here, guys, how, how can we encourage folks that are listening today in a practical way? What are some takeaways that we want to have people have on this discussion of, of love? And again, this is very different from going back to the very beginning of our podcast, the Love Wins idea of the LGBTQ movement, which, which really, isn't this a, it's not a biblical understanding. It's not a biblical idea of love here, but but, but we want to kind of counter it and contrast it with what the Bible teaches. What are some takeaways that we can leave people with today? What are your thoughts?
I think one would be to go look at the grand design online course and look for the lesson on maternal love. It's more than just maternal love. It's It's the it's the story of God's love and how that is expressed through us and in us. And that'd be one way.
The Grand Design, so that's an online course you can find it. Yep, disciple nations.org. And Luke, we can get a link up for that. And I think what we're talking about resources, too, I'll just mentioned that, you know, part of our, our training from the very beginning, you know, is very much about, you know, lobbying action, its truth through a biblical worldview and living out the truth, but in doing it in love as an expression of love that largely comes from Bob Moffitt and the teaching of the harvest Foundation. And Bob has a marvelous tool called the disciplines of love, which is a reminder that, you know, love is a choice that we have to make, to learn to walk in love with the people around us, in our homes, in our workplaces, in our neighborhoods, on a daily basis, and it's choices that we make to work for their good for their benefit. It's one thing to say it's not the thing to do it. And that requires some intentionality. And that's what this tool is about. Be intentional. What are you going to do in those? Who are those people? What are you going to do in one of those relationships over the next 24 hours to demonstrate love? You know, it gets very practical. But we I need that I think we all need that. Right? Because it's one thing to kind of say it philosophically, it's another thing to do it right. And so this is a tool that you can find. And we will put up some links to the disciplines of love. And I would encourage people to check it out. And and maybe give it a try, you know, and see what happens. Yeah, thoughts? Yeah, I
think another takeaway is that, I think this discussion is so important, especially during this month, like we said, at the beginning of the podcast, as Christians, we really need to route ourselves in what is love? Because if we don't, what's going to happen is what happens a lot of Christians as people come up to them and say, you know, you're a Christian, right? You're for love and yes or no question. Yes, yes, then you should accept me in my lifestyle, you know, in these decisions I'm making about what my identity is now. And that will trip up a lot of people I know for myself, that's put me on my heels a few times. And it's just because we have this shallow understanding of love. And what they're saying is they want you to accept them so that they don't feel bad about themselves. That's not a love at all, you know, and differentiating between that is really important.
Yeah, that's such a great point. Luke today we love means affirmation, kind of, regardless of whatever choices are being made. Right. So To love is to affirm, you know, to affirm somebody in a same sex relationship or transgender, you know, changing their sex, whatever, you know, they're doing a surgery is to love them is to affirm them. And you hear even that in the church so much. But that's very different than what we were talking about. It's working in, it's sacrificing for the good and this is Dwight, back to your point that working for the good. Sometimes, you know, it's it's going to tell people something that they don't want to hear because they're doing something destructive, right? And to work for their good. Truly, that's truly to love. Maybe saying things they don't want to hear actually. So it's, it's really yeah,
sometimes that's the most unloving thing you can do is to accept someone in their sin. That is the most unloving thing you can do. But that, of course, brings up a whole nother discussion of how what our mean shouldn't be about going about this of, you know, correcting an unbeliever and that kind of thing. As a quick note on that, though, I would say it's really important to differentiate between how should I phrase this between people that are advocating this and people that are cotton is in the way you treat those two different people is really important. So, good point something maybe for another discussion. But yeah,
my thought to offer would be to seek forgiveness and grant forgiveness, we really imprison ourselves and others when we harbor unforgiving thoughts and we don't clean, clean ourselves up. So we really need to pray before the LORD when we harbor these kinds of things. And boy, what an expression and an outpouring of love, not only to the person we haven't forgiven or sought forgiven from, but other people see it and what what, what an amazing stream of love that that can be. That's practical, but it's super hard as well. So we just, we just have to very prayerfully consider that before we are we go and do it that lot. It's such a relief when we do that.
Right. Yeah, such a great point. John, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, just are you in a relationship right now where you're you're, you're choosing to be unforgiving and to harbor bitterness. You know, don't do it any longer, right? Repent, you know, and choose to forgive. That's an expression of love. And I just think about what that means. I mean, what would the world look like without forgiveness, if there was no forgiveness, you couldn't have relationships, we all need to be forgiven. And it's such a powerful biblical idea that that forgiveness exists and is available through Christ and that we are called to forgive others, as well. So great, great, practical application there. Well, guys, that's probably enough. I mean, this is a topic that we are just scratching the surface on. And we're going to come back to it, this is one of the 10 words that we're writing about. And you can expect to see as our 10 words project continues to develop, and it's going to be coming out. In fact, this is the last of the 10 words. And as I was, you know, taking a stab at fleshing this word out, this was very intimidating for me. Because this is such a powerful concept. It's so central. As we said, in this, you know, this podcast, it's the center of everything, it's at the center of God, it's at the center of his character. It's at the center of the universe. And so boy to get this to get this one right is kind of important. And we, we will continue to try to get it right together and with you guys, and we'll continue to flesh it out and future podcast as well, I'm sure, guys, great, great discussion. Great comments. Really fun to be with you today. And I hope everyone was encouraged by this. And I will see you again all in a future episode of ideas have consequences this the podcast at the disciple nation.
Thank you so much for listening. Like my dad was just saying he's currently writing a new book with the working title 10 words that transformed culture, and it is currently in its manuscript form. But as the publication date approaches, if you'd like to stay updated on the progress of the book, and the accompanying video series that we will release with it, you can join us on our newsletter for updates, or follow us on social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and now Twitter. If any of you enjoyed my dad's last book, why social justice is not biblical justice, you're gonna have an idea of what to expect with this 10 words book, because he's pretty much going to be using the same comparing contrast analysis of these 10 words, and like he did with justice, grounding them in the Bible, and then contrasting that definition to our culture's common definition. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on social media or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and we're hope you able to join us here on ideas have consequences next Tuesday, as we talk with Nancy Pearcey about her new book, The toxic war on masculinity, how Christianity reconciles the sexes. Thanks again for listening
