S11 E2 Creating a Culture of Honor in Education: An Interview with Andratesha Fritzgerald

7:55PM Sep 12, 2023

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Carolyn Teigland

Andratesha Fritzgerald

Keywords:

learners

students

barriers

universal design

learning

work

udl

inclusion

inclusive

experiences

create

support

words

learn

honor

outcome

classroom

talk

design

culture

Hi friends, I'm Tim Vegas from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you were listening to think inclusive, our podcast that brings you conversations about inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. It's good to be back with weekly episodes of thinking inclusive. Last week we talked with Dr. Shelley Moore about the five P's of inclusive education with a focus on what inclusion looks like in secondary schools. Make sure to check out episode one of season 11 after you hear from our amazing guest, Andratesha Fritzgerald is the founder and lead consultant of building blocks of brilliance educational consulting firm. As an international speaker Fitzgerald exhibits an audacious perseverance that calls organizations to evolve into inclusive anti racist safe zones for all learners. With over 20 years in education, she has served as a teacher, curriculum specialist, administrator, and director, her award winning book anti racism and Universal Design for Learning. Building expressways to success has been a catalyst for UDL to ensure safety and radical inclusion in every learning community. For this episode Andratesha, discusses the importance of creating a culture of honor in educational spaces as opposed to a culture of power. She explains that codes of power are rules created by those in power that limit the access and opportunities of marginalized individuals. In contrast, codes of honor empower all members of the learning community and invite their voices and experiences to the table. Fitzgerald emphasizes the need for intentional efforts to break down the limitations of the culture of power and create inclusive environments where every learner is seen, heard and supported. Thank you so much to our incredible sponsor for this week's episode, changing perspectives, an international nonprofit that partners with schools and districts to create inclusive and equitable learning communities for all students. They offer customizable teacher trainings, family workshops, and curriculum resources. They've already helped over 300,000 students, 12,000 teachers and 500 schools, visit their website at changing perspectives now.org To learn more, and schedule a free meeting. Oh, I am so so excited for you to hear our conversation today. And just for a little bit of context, under Tisha and I recorded this interview on June 30 2023, the day that the Supreme Court issued its biggest rulings of the year, so just know that the weight of those decisions influenced our conversation. Make sure you hang around till the end of the interview with Andrew Teesha, where we both answer this episode's slightly morbid mystery question. And for free time this week, we have our very own Carolyn Teague Lindh CEO of MCIE II. Carolyn and I talked about working with partners who are in states and districts where there has been an effort to stamp out language like diversity, equity and inclusion. After a short break my interview with Andrew Teesha Fitzgerald.

Andrew Teesha Fitzgerald, welcome to the thinking cluesive podcast.

Thank you so much for having me too.

I just want to address the elephant in the rooms that we're recording on. And not so great day, news wise. So I think both of I think if you hear a little bit of in our town, that's probably where it's coming from. So I just want to acknowledge that however, this plays out this conversation. But Andhra Teesha, I had the pleasure of listening and watching your keynote at the 2020 23 supporting inclusive practices conference, inclusion from the ground up, and it was fantastic. The first time I heard you speak so it was amazing. So thank you for thank you for your thoughts. And you talked specifically about the distinction between a culture of power and A culture of honor. And I know our audience doesn't have a context for that. So I was wondering if you could just share what you mean by those terms, because I thought they were really fascinating.

Well, I'm so excited to speak with you today. And I know that there is, as you said, the elephant in the room that will no doubt make its way into the conversation when we think about codes of power, versus codes of honor codes of power was a term from an article written by Lisa Delpit. In 1988, I think what breaks my heart about what I'm about to share with you about these codes of power. And she talked about issues of power that are enacted in the classroom. And I wished that this 90 Aba article was out of date that it was no longer contextual, that it didn't make sense for educational spaces, but it still does. And so from this article about codes of power, I propose creating intentionally codes of honor. And so codes of power are where issues of power are enacted in the classroom, where those who have the power, create these roles that those who are not a part of the cultural power may or may not have access to. If you are a participant in the culture of power, then you know the rules and it makes it easier for you to navigate, and unnecessarily to gain power but easier to navigate. And those who have the power will be less likely or less aware to acknowledge that this power, or this culture of power even exists, and what the codes of honor that I propose we have to be intentional, we have to put in effort and time to break down the limitations of the culture of power and create a culture of honor. How do we do that? We are purposeful and intentional. And explicitly naming were the codes of power placing limits on those who are marginalized historically. And traditionally, we have to empower members of every learning community daily in our supports, and choices and structures, we have to make an effort to make sure that every member of the learning community is invited into positions of power, which means that in a culture of power, I make the decision for you, I decided with the consequences, and you just have to deal with it. Because we've made the rules. Everyone plays by the rules, whether you know them or not, we hold you accountable to those rules, and a culture of honor, we co create the environment that we are holding ourselves into accountable to, there's a humility, that even as a teacher, I take myself out of that power position, and allow you to make decisions for yourself that govern your best outcomes. Of course, I facilitate and support and create structures. But there is an element of CO design that invites your voice powerfully to the table, but not just your voice, your experiences. What you know, for sure, what you struggle with is all welcome in a culture of honor. Because I don't want you to have to decompile decompartmentalize, the most important aspects of yourself to be the picture of success because of my power. I want you to bring everything about who you are, and what you want, and what you need into this space. Because I honor you. And together with that honor, we co create a learning community where learning is safe, welcoming, inclusive. Those are the only kinds of environments where the brain can actually learn anyway,

where do these codes of power even come from? Is it just this is historically how we've run schools, you have the one teacher, and you have your 20 ish students, and then whatever the teacher says, that's it. There's no more discussion. I mean, like, where's it all come from?

When I speak to teachers, professors, designers of learning experiences around the country. The number one area of pushback that I get when I introduce this culture of honor as a way of shaping instructional experiences is what if I'm not taken seriously as a teacher? What if they take over what if they don't? What if they take advantage of the structures or being able to make choices and when you unravel all of those questions and those what ifs, there is fear and a culture of power. There is a comfort in knowing that what I say won't be challenged. If it is if it's a nail that sticks up our hammer it down. I will be in control. I will be in charge. I will be the authority, power that operates that way is comfortable, because what they like and what they need and what they say is the moving factor in there. Learning Environment, not what the students need, not what breeds learning, but what breeds their comfort. And so fear is not a good driver, it's a great indicator to let you know, hey, there's something going on something to look into something to lean into. But it is not a good driver. And we're in educational spaces where fear of the students that we serve, have been a driver. And when those students have been Historically and traditionally marginalized, so our black students, or Brown students, our students with disabilities, students who identify as LGBTQ, there is a fear of who you serve. And when you are afraid of your students, you can't truly teach them there is no transmission of content, where fear is a barrier. And instead of addressing that barrier of fear, it's a lot more comfortable to just say, it's the students or they haven't done this, because it maintains my power. But in a culture of honor, it requires humility by those who are charged with the responsibility of creating the learning environment, and that humility, so we can create this inter accountability that allows us to co design so that each of us has what we need. Usually, when I'm thinking about honor and power together, I think people can hear the difference when on the first day of school, when we are sharing our responsibilities, whether it's a syllabus, or whether it's those little sign off forms that we have in K 12, that we say take home, have your parents signed off. There's a very different environment, when I say hey, it's the first day, here's what can happen here. Here's what can't happen. This is what I'll do. If you don't, here are the rules. You either follow them or you must go. That's power. But if on the first day, when you come in and say hey, there are some things that I would love, in order to teach, there are some things that each of you will meet, in order to learn, let's co create a set of, of expectations that we can hold each other accountable to for the entire school year. If we need to revisit them, we will. But we need to make sure that what what happens when I step on your toes. What happens when you step on my How can we create some expectations together to make sure that we are community? That's honor, honor and power, sound very different. And they play out very different and creating an environment that lets the brain know You are safe here. You Are Welcome Here you are wanting to hear, and you don't have to be perfect to exist here and become the picture of success for yourself. And for others.

That's the kind of class I want to be in. Yes.

Yes, please. I really, I took a course last summer, in a subject area that was not very familiar to me. And it was one of the first times that I've been in a classroom that was not universally designed or really from that education viewpoint in a very long time. And what I found is that when I have the tools as an expert learner, meaning I know what I need, I know how I learn best that even if the environment is not created for me, and I was very aware that this course is created as what higher education loves to brag about as a weed out course, that I can universally designed the course for myself to ensure that I'm successful. On the the end, even if the course was not universally designed, then I had to put in a lot of extra time and effort to make sure that my outcome was successful. But I knew how to do that. Anytime I'm working with students, whether they are in ninth grade English, or teachers who are furthering their education, I help them to learn more about how you learn, so that you can be your best advocate in any learning space. So even if the classroom is not universally designed, we hope that it is. But even if it's not, and many of our students, especially black and brown students will go into places that are designed for their failure and not for their success. But if I know what I need, then no one can take that away from me. When we talk about expert learners. Those are learners who are empowered with information with resources, but also to know how to ask for support and where to find it, even if the course is not engineered for you to succeed. So how do

we how do we get expert learners then? You know, like, this sounds, it sounds like these are the kinds of learners we want, especially in higher education. But you know, we have to train them or we have to support them to get to that place, right?

We have to train and support them while we push the system to become what learners need. I believe we have to work on both sides. And so with universal design for learning, and you know that UDL is a framework that takes 30 over 30 years of brain research to protect how humans learn. So instead of having students walking To the Roman expecting self regulation, we designed our courses to build the self regulation muscle to have students know what helps me to focus, do I notice what happens in my body, when I'm not focused? Am I able to bring myself back quickly. And if we are not designing courses for learners to begin to think about who they are as a learner, and we only design courses for them to think about who they're not as a learner, then the failure is on the instructor. And so I love that Universal Design for Learning has this research on how humans learn, we have to be diligent to match that with an anti racist approach to to protect the humanity of those humans who are learning with us. And so anti racist strategies require humility require us to look at the barriers, to look at racism, and ableism as a barrier to learning and instruction. And when we are more aware of our biases, more aware of the lack of diversity in our scholarship, more aware of where we can set up structures that will lead to success for students. It cannot be cookie cutter, because every term, even every day, the students who are in front of us, the learners who are with us are different. That means that the barriers are going to be different, that what they need in order to learn and grow from our content is going to be different. I cannot prescribe to you what you need. But I can certainly learn more about how my design impacts your success and your outcome. That is an inter accountable exchange that has to happen in learning. And I find that the Universal Design for Learning Framework invites us into that conversation when we acknowledge this dynamic of power, and intentionally move towards a culture of honor.

So you've written a book called anti racism and Universal Design for Learning, building expressways to success, you know, you touched a little bit on it, but you know how our anti racism and UDL connected

when we look at that body of research in Universal Design for Learning, the three principles of UDL are multiple means of engagement, which really means that there's more than one way to experience support, and that we design our, our lessons and our classrooms around helping learners to know what they need to keep focused, to keep motivation to find purpose, even in things that are not necessarily interesting to them. So how can I take what I know about myself, and apply that in a classroom setting to keep myself moving toward the goal. So universal design for learning, ask us to as instructors to think about how to design those aspects into the core. So recruiting interest, that means that what you're interested in has value here. Now from an anti racist lens. What that means is, even if our cultures are different, or our backgrounds are different, or interests are different, my interests are not supreme, to the learners in the classroom. And so what I have to do is be intentional about Miami for what is a value to you, what is important to you, and allowing that to be brought into the classroom in a way that enhances your learning also enhances mine. That means that I'm constantly learning how to reach you how to bend the curriculum toward you, intentionally and purposefully, and who you are matters here to your focus, to your motivation, to your purpose. That means I need to know a little bit about your outcomes, where do you want to go? My book, anti racism and Universal Design for Learning has a subtitle building expressways to success. And in this book, I encourage teachers not to determine the outcome for students not to choose the destination for them. But kinda like Driver's Ed. Once you learn the skills to drive for yourself, then that means that you choose the destination, you know how to get there, you know what you need, you know, what comforts are important to you what music you'll select, you get to decide when you're in the driver's seat. But without the skills to do the driving, you can't get to your destination. I don't want to choose the destination for you. But I want my instruction to be powerful enough for you to learn so much more about yourself as a learner, that as you take and apply this content, these connections, this motivation and purpose to your overall goal. You have a Y in mind, and a purpose that I come alongside to make sure you get to where you need to go. So multiple means of engagement really pushes us to focus on the student and the barriers that the student identifies as well as the ones that we can perceive along with them. To help them figure out how do we decrease these barriers? How does my design eliminate the barriers to make sure you're on the road to where you want to go? Not where society thinks you should be, not where someone else has decided for you, but for where you truly want to go. And every learner, whether they're in pre K, or a GED or higher education, they know where they want to go, that may change that may evolve as they learned themselves, it is our responsibility to yield to the learner, and engage them in ways that will push them toward their future.

I love that I love that analogy. I'm a former educator, former special education teacher, I worked in public schools for 16 years, in my teacher ed program, you had a mix of authoritative and authoritarian styles of what you should be portraying. And I feel like in the special ed, education, kind of field and sphere, I was most often instructed, never let them see you cry, never let them you know, never let them get away with all of these things. And it was much more that you were the ultimate authority in the classroom. And you had to make sure that your students, you know, that's why I mean, that's why we talked about classroom management, right? Behavior Management, we are managing the students behaviors, but the longer and longer I was in education, the more I realized that dynamic wasn't, wasn't really positive. It was, you know, fear based, right, which is what you're talking about. Why is building relationships with your learners figuring out what they like, what they what their passions are, figuring out where we, where they want to go? Why is that really important?

It honors them as human beings, to say that there is something of value that you bring, just because you're present. When you come into the room, I think we there has been some School of Education, some schools of thought that see students as empty vessels waiting to be filled. I believe that our miners come to us field for fully human. And it's up to us to design an experience to engineer solutions alongside of them, that really brings Belle's cultural Funds of Knowledge, the things that they know, that helps parents to connect powerfully with the curriculum in ways that they can see those connections. At home, I remember, my son had a, an assignment. And the assignment was, it was just a cut out of a right angle, find as many right angles in your home as you possibly can. And so here we are all around the house with this right angle, and it is just the cut out. But it gave us a chance to say I know what a right angle is, of course, you know, we knew, but for my son to say, I get it, I know what a right angle is, I know where to find them. And if they're all over the house, I get the fact that there's something important about them, we can connect powerfully to experiences and backgrounds and culture and humanity. If we are intentional about doing so, that means that we have to be diligent to place ourselves in the position of learner. And just as we expect our students to come in and place themselves in the position of learner for content, we also have to reassure them and create systems and structures, they say you are also teacher here, you are also expert here. And when we stop trying to be the expert on others, I am not an expert on who you are, or how you're experiencing today, or what you went through last night, or how you feel in this moment. What I am an expert on is myself and helping to design this experience so that your expertise, and my expertise is not in battle, but that we can honor one another, even on days when we aren't getting along the best that we have a way to honor one another that I invite your brilliance into this space, that I believe that you are competent. And you show me those competent ways and will find ways to blast any barriers that are holding you back from moving forward and you're learning and you're leading. And you're teaching and you're growing. There's a destination that you have that you want to get to. And even if you haven't shared that with me fully, we have to first have a relationship so that we understand the roles that we hold in each other's lives, and how we are expecting each other to grow together this year. The role that is not just most important between teacher and student but building a community so that students get to see other students as experts on them. else as well as on the content area. And we can share that space of expertise as a community. But it doesn't happen by accident. It happens with intentionality, and effort. That means we have to be cognizant of the barriers that exist. We have to be honest about history and marginalization, we have to be honest about where systems have not been built for all students. And inclusion is not an option is not something that you opt in, or opt out, but that every student not just feels included. But it's actually included in decision making, and policies, and classroom organization, and setting up the expectations and navigating how they attack assignments are which assignments are most salient to them. This is what Universal Design for Learning is. But we have to attach that universal design for learning to an intentional effort to be honest about what schools have been for particularly students of color for students with disabilities, for anyone who has not been the norm in any way, shape, or form for disrupting normative language in that way, to make sure that every student sees themselves as the picture of success. And that the possibilities to the destination their true that they choose are endless, and support it in ways that traditional education has not done. But with universal design for learning and anti racism. We are intentional, and putting all efforts knowing that this must be done no action.

Inclusion often gets characterized as, like a one size fits all solution. And I've also heard UDL, and it's mostly just from people who don't understand what it means. And I love how you talk about the three aspects of UDL. How do you respond to this critique

of inclusion? Can that be one size fits all. And neither can Universal Design for Learning, because part of Universal Design for Learning is being very crystal clear about what the goals are. And so once we are clear on what the goals are for the learning, the second step is to really be honest and diligent to study and research, what the barriers are, what are the barriers, the barriers cannot be one size fits all, because we have variability in our classrooms, which is our strength. And so the barriers to learning for one student may be different from others, there are some that may be overlap. But once we get smart about the barriers together as a learning community, then we begin that process of designing, which keeps in mind the individual barriers The students are experiencing. But here's the part that I think people either misunderstand or misrepresent. learners get to make the choices, they get to make the choices. And so in that we have to the more we learn about the barriers, the more our design is informed to eliminate those barriers. And as we eliminate those barriers, students are free to make choices about how they take in information, make choices about how they show what they know, and even make choices about what they use as supports on their learning journey. This is the part that makes it individual that is not one size fits all. Of course, the more we learn about the barriers, the more options that we have to have available, the more options we have available. We don't prescribe is not like medicine, we don't say, Hey, here's your barrier, I have engineered a full set of solutions for you know, every learner gets to say, hey, there's a some strategies that I would like to try. And even if there's a strategy that I may have in mind, because honestly, there's like, Oh, I think this will be good for this one. Even if there's one that I have in mind that the student does not choose. They have a freedom to try different strategies to try different supports to drag try different seats in the room are always through the lens of did it bring about the outcome that you were hoping for? What would you like to do differently? And what have you learned about yourself as a learner? Again, that is always individual. What do you learn about yourself as a learner? How can we put that into play? Are there strategies that meet your needs? Are there barriers still in the way this process never ends? We constantly learn and we grow As a community again, it's not the teacher learns about the student, and then makes it happen for the student. But we're a community of learners where I'm learning about my instruction, you're learning about yourself as an instructor for yourself. And along with me, is my teacher meeting your needs? Is the curriculum bending towards you? Is there a disconnect? Is it culture is IT background is a support is a strategy, these questions become second nature and a universally designed learning environment where support is normalized, and that villainized everybody takes the space they need to be? Well, this is inclusion in the most powerful way, I don't have to come into the room and announce, I cannot hear well, please turn on the Closed Captions. Universal Design says, there are some predictable things that people will need. So I'm going to use closed captions. And let me use pictures, I'm going to use stories, I'll use words, I'm going to use experiences, you may be able to stand up when I'm talking to you may need a chair their roles, there are a number of decisions that you can make for yourself, why? Because I trust you to be the expert on you. And in those areas where you don't have language to articulate or maybe you don't know what it is that you need. This is where we enter into partnership. And we grow together until you have answers for you that show up in your outcomes. The outcomes tell us if we're growing together as a community. This is honor in action.

So this, I can imagine someone listening to this conversation and be like, you know, this sounds great for middle school or high school. But what about, you know, an elementary school and these kids don't know what they want, you know, they may choose the wrong kind of support or, you know, like, going back to what you said about before, what if they take advantage and, and so help help and educate talk down and educator who may be thinking those things right now.

Assuming the students don't know what they want, is assuming that students are not human. I have seen preschoolers articulate with pictures and words, where they've met the learning outcome, whether they would like some more help, or whether they have no idea what you're talking about. And they're able to share the level of mastery that they've experienced. There are learners, no matter what the age learners, we can structure our classroom in a way that gives learners an opportunity to try different strategies to learn more about what they want and what they need. And to be able to articulate that. And so if those early learning years are all about executive functioning, meaning that they learn how to make a plan, use a strategy and evaluate the outcome that empowers them in the higher grades to know how to organize information, how to advocate for themselves to say, I don't know, or I don't understand, we create these communities where it's safe, to not be perfect, where it's safe to need something different than the person next to you, where it's safe to try something and say this works for me, or this doesn't work for me. And this is what we're building. This is what expert learning is. And so if we are doing the cognitive heavy lifting as a read of him, it says in her book, the cognitive heavy lifting at those early grades, that we never give learners space to make decisions for themselves. We actually disrespect them into compliance to say, I decide what is best for you, and decide what you want and decide what you need. We can hear it in this conversation where it sounds like power. But we give ourselves a past when we make those decisions for our early learners in those spaces and say they don't know what they want. And they try. And so I would ask every educator to think about those areas where you've decided for or about someone else, without giving them a chance to decide for themselves. There is a podcast that I listened to him from time to time and it is from there was a young man his name was Nathan and he said nothing about us without us. And that has been a mantra that has stuck with me. And so when you are tempted to make decisions for and about the students, I will ask you to just queue up my voice and voice of Nathan take this moment to say nothing about my learner's without my learner's give them a chance to decide for themselves. Give them a chance to try. How are we refining failure? If this is a strategy that doesn't work for you, or you chose it because the person next to you likes it, look at the outcome. Did that work well for you? How would you like to try something different? And this is the time in that Pre K through two where students can explore and try, but also have the space to have those conversations are those moments of reflection to see what works for me? What brings about my success? Am I proud of how I've moved through this? Is there something that I'm not proud of? And how can I fix it? Even if there's not language, if there's pictures, if there's words, if there's a happy face or an emoji, that can communicate, here's where I am with this. Here's the skill I'm trying to build. This is what I know, this is what I don't know, how do we build their bridge together with them, not just for them, not just about them. But with them.

That's important. I'm just gonna let that sit for a minute. So I want to talk about equity. And I want to talk about equality. And I want to know, your thoughts about the difference between those two words and educational systems? Because sometimes the conversation goes, well, you know, I believe in equity of opportunity. But I don't know about equity, of outcomes. I don't you know, I've heard that before, you probably have too, you know, and how does equality fit in to this equation, if it does at all? So is there a place for both of these terms? Or how should we be thinking about this?

I'm so glad that we're talking about this today. And Catan g brown, Supreme Court, Justice Brown has a quote, and she said that no one benefits from ignorance. She was talking about this country, and the work that has been done in the past, and the present experiences that have been disrupted with this decision on affirmative action. I bring that up to say that when I think about the school context, higher education, K through 12. preschools, we know that there has been a dichotomous experience for learners of color, in a number of ways for learners with disabilities. And I highlight those because this is fresh on my mind, most of the time, but particularly today, when we think about this word, equality. What stands out for me is that I have two children, ages 16 and 15. Right now. And there have been moments. Equality was what I was seeking, just to view my children as humans, just give them the education that they deserve. And in that sense, every human being deserves to be seen as a human, to be respected, to have the space to have different emotions, to have the space to be happy and joyful, even in learning in his spaces. And in school. I wish that my children did not have to be fierce advocates for their education, even as early as three and four years old that they had to learn to fight for the equality that should have been afforded to them. But that is our reality. When I think of equality, I think about what every human life deserves dignity, respect, honor, when I think about equity, equity means that there is a mutual acknowledgement of the barriers that are keeping me from getting to my best. And when there's a mutual agreement on what those barriers are, then there's also a mutual agreement, to begin to demolish those barriers, to tear those down. So that my goal, and the goal that you have, as you see it with me, is meant there is a mutuality in equity. And so, equity means that systems and individuals see their roles, and that we fight for that equality in humanity that I just spoke of before. And so when we think about equity, it shows up in different ways because the barriers will be different for each of us, for every person, when there is equity. There is agreement between systems and individuals, particularly in the educational context for the learners that we serve, that we will be diligent to hear and believe the barriers that we will be diligent to listen to and believe the data and the outcomes and that the row for around where every learner is to where they want to be. And they should be that we work together with mutuality and respect to break down those barriers, wherever they may be in every system in every classroom, and I love that there's an organization cast that started the universal design for learning guidelines, their tagline is, until learning has no limits. And I love that until learning has no limits, equity has to be our focus.

Are you ready for the mystery question? After a short break under Teesha and I answer a very strange question

so the mystery question is oh, I just did that one. So I get to pick another one. I guess I should take out the ones I already did. If you decide to get cremated where would you want your ashes spread? I didn't make it up.

I know that I will not decide to be cremated so I just want to let my family knows if you're listening. Don't you dare don't do it. Don't you do if you know in the spirit of the question, if I was outlet want my ashes sprinkled? Oh, goodness in beautiful Lake Erie so Cleveland could feel me and experience we over and over again. I'm a Cleveland girl. Okay. And so shout out to both as a harmony they just might be nice and clear. Way books and so yep, so like Erie so the Cleveland could could benefit from my Spirit over and over and over again. I love Oh, I love where I'm from. We are lifers. Here in Cleveland, my husband's family is here. So we have a long legacy. My great grandmother migrated from Bessemer, Alabama, in 1924. And when I tell you we put down roots here in Cleveland, I love this place. I always want to see it grow and change. And I know that Cleveland sometimes gets a bad rap. But I would encourage anyone to come and visit and see the changes in the way that the city is growing and changing. So shout out to Mayor bib, fantastic leadership there lots of changes coming. Lots of innovation and education. And so the best is yet to come.

Oh, wow. That's you? What about? Gosh, gosh, well, you know, I was thinking about this just you know, as your as you were talking. And it's gonna sound really cliche, because I'm wearing my Dodger cap, but you know what? Might as well just go for it because yeah, so I'm originally from Southern California. I grew up in the Arcadia, Pasadena, St. Gabriel Valley area. I can still consider it my home even though I don't live there. We try to go back every year. But listen, just sprinkle me a Dodger Stadium. That's why I'm saying Chavez Ravine. You know, I mean, just frequently all around. And, you know, as long as the Dodgers are there, maybe I'll be like experiencing, you know, just be at the ballpark every day. You know what I mean? Yes, yes. Home. Home. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, la certainly priced this out, but we are. We have a lot of roots there. My, my dad still lives in LA Actually, both my parents still live in LA County. LA County is huge. So it's like, you know, from mountain to the ocean. So we try to get back there and in visit, it's always home. But you know, Atlanta is is where our family is and where we're raising our kids. And it was definitely the best decision. But listen, you don't put my ashes around the Braves stadium. Sorry, y'all. Dodgers all the way. Okay. You heard it here. Okay. All right. Listen. All right. I don't have a written down but it's on audio. So I can't take it back. Andrea, Tasha Fitzgerald, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast. We appreciate your time.

Thank you so much, Tim for having me. And I hope all the listeners remember that ally ship requires action. So get in the fight. By

that time, that means it's free time. And this week, I have Carolyn Tegan, CEO of the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. I caught Carolyn after a week of working with one of our amazing partners, school districts. Here's our conversation. Hey, Carolyn, how are you? Hey, Tim,

I'm good. How are you?

So I had this kind of burning question in my on my brain. And I've been thinking about it a lot. And so I want to run it by you. We're in a strange educational climate, right. With, with our partners, the, you know, the districts in the schools that we work with, but also just all across the country, if you're paying attention to the news and education news, there's a lot of talk about what you can and cannot say, you know, specific words. And I'm just wondering how as people who are working in school districts and school districts that want to be more inclusive, like how do we navigate, not saying certain words like equity or inclusion or diversity? How do we do our work without using these words?

Well, that's an interesting question. And what I'm finding because we are all over the place. Now, as you noted, we're not just in Maryland, and Maryland tends to be a little more liberal in terms of the ability to use certain words, but not everywhere. But what I personally am finding is that when I am going to be speaking to a new audience, I always ask the question of district leadership, are there certain words or phrases that are going to cause people to shut down and not be able to hear the message, because for me, while I don't agree with the idea of trying to mass certain words, that means mean real things like, equity is a real thing. Diversity is a real thing. Disability is a real thing. But if we can't get the message to the audience, because they can't hear it, then we're stalled in our ability to get anywhere with a district or a school or whomever it is that we're speaking with. So I think that there is a balance between knowing your audience and avoiding certain words until you develop that sense of stability and trust, where then maybe you can begin to introduce words that cause division. But if we want to have a seat at the table, we have to know who our audience is, and how to get that seat and be able to remain in that seat. Because if we do something in a situation that causes us to not be invited back, then the work in that space is not going to happen, or at least we're not going to be given the opportunity to make that work happen. So I have an aversion to being told that I can't say certain words, because they're not politically correct. In that environment, I do think we have an obligation if we want to get this work to advance, particularly in places where there is reticence to acknowledge the fact that there are marginalized groups, we're doing a disservice to the people that were there to support and honestly, the marginalized groups in that space,

you're right, that you develop a relationship with, whoever it is, whatever, it's an educator or Fritz's district administrator. And there's a level of trust that needs to be established. Before we get into hard conversations. I can imagine a scenario where officially, things are not written out with certain terminology. But in conversation, which is a lot of what our work is anyways, is just having conversations with people, those words and the explanations of those words are part of that conversation.

Right? So it's, it's being able to read your audience and know when you've established the level of trust trust that allows you to be able to be more forthright. You know, I talk about we talk about not just I, we, as an organization talked about children who are educated in separate settings. And when I become comfortable in a space, I use the word segregation, because that is what it is. But that's not always the first, depending on the relationship that I have with folks, I don't necessarily go to that description of what we're doing when we isolate children away from their age appropriate peers to educate them. It is segregation. But that is a word that causes people to have a reaction. And sometimes we use it because we want to get every action. We want to highlight what it really is. But we have to be Be careful that we're not using words that then cause us To create a negative reaction that stalls or even stops our ability to further the work and the conversation with folks,

anything else on your mind,

there's a young girl in one of the districts that I'm in that she was in a segregated setting from the time that she was in preschool until this school year when she was in fifth grade. And it was all because her IQ score showed 49, a full scale score of 49. She comes from generational poverty, she's a black girl, who does not use the same language that we would use, she doesn't have the same life experiences that we have. And the more you get to know her, you know that 49 is not an accurate IQ score for her. But she was being measured based on an assessment that largely is biased against how she was raised and how she was spoken to and the language that she uses. And so decisions were made about her educational journey. It's segregated her all because of that number. And then when she became included, all of a sudden, there's all this competence that no one knew was there. Because all of a sudden, she's actually being asked to do real math. At me, it's really

amazing. Yeah, it's just amazing. And what's

interesting is when the educator see it, and then they're able to acknowledge, maybe I shouldn't be putting so much weight into these IQ scores. That's a huge for educators, we rely so much on those intelligence tests, and especially special ed.

So what do you think? What are your strategies for talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in places where those particular terms are being suppressed? Send me an email and let me know what you think you can reach me at TVILLEGA s at MCIE e.org.

For more information about inclusive education, or to learn how you can partner with us and your school or district, visit MCIE.org. Thanks again to our incredible sponsor, changing perspectives. Love, think inclusive, here are a few ways to let us know. Rate us on Spotify, or leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Become a patron for extra stuff. This week, I'm posting about six minutes of extra audio for my interview with Andrew Teesha. We talked about the recent firing of a Georgia educator for reading a picture book. Don't miss it. Speaking of patrons, thank you to Carol Q. Aaron P. Jarrett T Joyner a, Kathy B, Mark C, Gabi M and Kathleen T. We appreciate your continued support of thinking cluesive think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me to Vegas, Original Music by miles credit. Additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.

So is a senior and she's taking an AP research class. And so her research project is on banned books. Interesting. Yeah. And the only like the only reason why that is her research project is because of what's been happening.

Exactly my daughter, a group of students from my daughter's High School spoke out at a recent Board of Education Meeting in my district. She helped write one of the speeches. She was very concerned about this whole notion of banning books. And what that does to people who are represented in those books are the characters represent, you know, some of her friends and how concerning that is to her?

Yeah, yeah. MCIE