My vision of the future kids don't have to come out. Because being any gender you want is part of what is actually happening. I live in Brooklyn, I have privilege in being a city that is more inclusive than others. But as an adult coming out as trans means that you, you took a leap of faith into jumping out of the boat. And you didn't die. And you fucking striving. And you're free. And you discover this other way of living, that is not blocked, constructed, like, controlled, and the power in place, they hate that. Because you're free. You free your thoughts, and you convince other people that they could have freedom in thoughts. And that's why there's so many control and hates, and no one had kids to have gender expansion. And try to experiment because that's not what's gonna make good white citizens in America. Hey,
what's up everyone? Welcome to Works in Process. The podcast about uncovering creative methodologies from people doing inspiring work. I'm excited to announce for the next three episodes Works in Process will be in collaboration with tech circus as a media partner for the what if summit this October? What if design can change tomorrow? What if organizations put D AI first, what if you can represent the underrepresented? These are some of the themes that will be discussed at this virtual summit which brings together dei experts who aim to create breakthroughs, and promote inclusive futures for everyone. During the lead up to the Web Summit Works in Process will talk to summer presenters and explore the methods behind their creative decisions and ways to prioritize the principles of diversity, equity and inclusion within organizations, teams and professional practices. I'm your host designer and educator George Garrastegui, Jr. and join me as I continue to elevate the creative process by shifting the focus to how we work over what we produce. On today's episode, I want to welcome Maximus yo, Max, who is using they then pronouns exclusively works with organizations to embrace a justice focused mission rooted in social change and anti racism at their core. They believe in reparations, and the liberation of underrepresented communities, Max hosts workshops and how to support trans and gender non conforming folks how to overcome impostor syndrome, and how they get started with Inclusive Design. Also, there a senior inclusive UX strategist for all of us research program with the National Institute of Health. In 2022, Max published a nonfiction book that shares their life as a trans person, and their process of overcoming impostor syndrome. You don't suck how to overcome impostor syndrome. And they are currently writing their first memoir. Hey, Max, so happy to get you on the podcast?
No,
hi. So good to be with you.
Thank you, thank you, I appreciate you spending your time and I just realized, and you just let me know that you're, you're local, too. So you know, maybe one time we need to just kind of like see if we can link up.
That wouldn't be
awesome. I always like meeting in person, right? Yeah. So much.
Exactly, exactly. So I really want to get into your book and incorporating the DEI a into your design research. But before we do all of that, let's just do something fun and clear your mind. Yeah. Are you ready? At the beginning of every episode, I do these little icebreakers. And so it's just a series of this or that questions? Coffee or tea?
Oh, tea. Yeah, I don't drink coffee. I don't like the taste
and toast or bagel
toes.
Like I'm French. So I like any like big goals, but to
their graphic design or service design. All right, all about
service design. I started as a graphic designer, but service design is really in my DNA,
strategizing or consulting.
I mean between, like, I did a lot of consulting, but now I'm really into strategic so I like Yeah.
And look or intention.
Intention. Round was an intention. Yes.
And Now secondly, I do a quick word association. Right. So the first thing you think of when you hear these words, okay. Creativity,
respiration, like aspiration, aspiration. perspiration. Perspiration like sweat. Yeah. Okay,
Roof. What I have in mind is incarceration, like the opposite.
I get that I get that. Mistakes, growth skills.
I can think of a ladder, make
history,
I want to say fake. Like how we don't know, like we've been taught the wrong history, like it's been white, washed, read Superman say for
opportunity.
I don't think of jumping, jumping into an opportunity. Nice. Accessibility. I think about that as like, the base. Everything should be accessible. First, a great future. When I think of future I think about the exciting, exciting.
Okay. And last but not least, process.
My word is love. I love process. I love improving my process, learning about processes, but also from anything, how they make crayons, you know, like processes or like, how administration works, how they created these events. So yeah, oh, yeah.
The behind the scenes is always really interesting. Yeah. So thank you, thank you. I just always like starting my episodes with this kind of fun way to fire our brains. And so now I want to give my listeners a glimpse into how you were introduced into design and creativity. And I call this section origin story. So where did you grew up? And were you creative as a kid,
I grew up in France, specifically Normandy, and I was a very creative kids, I created a lot of things crafted a lot of things all the time by myself, like I was a very like, introverted kids are always trying to build things. So the most memorable thing I built was dollhouse almost from scratch, building the whole walls and wooden floor with like little pieces of woods and putting some quarters on it. Like, really like doing all the details. I went back to that recently, I like, I did some more miniature models to have that mean to doing Tyrians. And it's really bring me back to how I've said, as a kid, as like a good way to bring back my imagination, creativity.
Yeah, that's awesome. Who, if any, has been one of your biggest supporters in your creative career?
It's a tricky question for me, because I have a very difficult history in my life, where I had had a mentor for many, many years, who I separated ways with, maybe five, six years ago, because this person, I realized all the time was really controlling. So I became the person he wanted me to be and to support his work. So you've already modeled me and managed me to be what he needed. So when I started to, like, grow more, and like, Hey, I also want to be a creative director. That was a big no, like, I was shut down. And this is where I had to get out of that and heal from that. And having a lot of impostor syndrome of like, can I be a creative director cannot be managing more things, instead of just being a UX UI designer, because I was treated as I was not good enough to do it. And not being able to grow under these mentors. Like, shall like I was really put down. And that's a lot of the work I did in the past five, seven years. I like going into myself. So yeah, that's tricky for me, because I very good support, but he was very diminishing when I started to grow too much.
Right? It almost seems like kind of that impetus moment of realizing a lot of that stuff. And you know, sorry about having, you know, a mentor that kind of was really self serving and not really supportive.
So what was your first creative job and how did you stumble into it?
The first first one was back in 2001, there was a beginning of HTML, there was the West full force into Flash. And I was he was after high school and I did like two years into product design like industrial design, and then one year around more graphic design. And during that graphic design course, I was working halftime so it was like, fellowship kind of thing. And I tried to be super creative like I was but I was working for the biggest Pyro special like workout chips in France. So I was like, that was hard for me because I would like Mr. Something great and innovative and they they were very tight. Can engineers. And I was like 19, like no. And I very, very quickly realized I would work better as a freelancer. So that like, maybe when I when it was like four years later, I was freelancing, and I freelance for like, more than 15 years after that.
So after all of that, when did you first consider yourself a creative?
You know what, I think I was a creative way before that. I'm very lucky that my parents supported me into going to high school for the arts, there was like a high school where I was spending like 20 hours a week doing art, like creating art history. And really, like the vibe was really already what some people might have experienced in college, for our class, where you just do your project and ask the teacher to help you. So I was already a creative when I was like, 1213, in my mind, in my parents minds, I have a grandfather who was a painter. So they have a lot of like, I took classes at the bazaar, they both are in France, since I was nine. So was really like, I was a creative for most of my life. And because I was in France, or you don't have to take a loan to go to college. You don't have to pick like the specialty that will bring me back money after. So I know it's a privilege. And I realize how it is different from other folks I know who like, had to go to business school, and then do some art on the side. So I was trading very early on, and my dad had to fight the middle school.
How do you call that? Consider
the one who was like helping you to decide where you should go for high school? Yeah,
we have like a counselor, right? Yeah. And my
dad had to come to school and throw that person to stop bugging me because they were like, Oh, you have good potential, you should go into science, you should go into HRT, you're like, and my dad can like, No, you're gonna let my kid do arts, or there was my kid will never graduate. And I learn letters, because my dad was not supported by the school at all as being more sensitive kids and kids. And he was like, No, you're doing it, you have my full support. And I think that was a big, big piece into me, growing into that field and feeling very confident.
That's awesome to have that support and have, you know, a parent fight for you like that, especially noticing what kind of talent their kid may have. So amazing. Amazing. So you know, I do that, right. And I think it's a great way for us to shortly get a lot of information about who you are, where you come from, because the heart of the conversation is coming up. So we know that this is where you've been. And now we want to talk about where you're at now. So we've heard that you've been in the industry in freelancing for about over 15 years. But I noticed when looking up some of your information, right, you're doing healthcare. And when you think about design, health care, for me is not one of the first industries you think about going into. But you focus on health care and organizations that are justice focused, and rooted in anti racism. Can you explain what it means for an organization to be justice focused and rooted in anti racism?
I came to that conclusion. That was my purpose in life. I started to work with a lot of startups when I started freelancing. That was beginning of the iPhone. And all of that made me very excited about apps about startups. So I worked with a lot of high tech, tech startups. Almost a lot of them were like, owned by Cs white dudes that had a lot of privilege. That was okay for me. So I was just like, oh, yeah, it's exciting. Let's revamp, let's disrupt, that's this, this and that. And I got very excited about projects that were like, just, yeah, are we really going to do something about the world by just fixing something that nobody cares? Like, I feel like I wasted some of those energy or resources for products that don't mean anything. And so it took me a while to understand why I was feeling so off and why I was feeling I was not good enough. It took me many, many years to like, accept that. And realize that there's something else than the tech startups, Silicon Valley world. And it was very, very scary to get out of it. Because I didn't know what I would do because the money was there. Everyone was like in this big bug or this is where the thing I was really feeling very proud of being working in. Like I worked for banks. I worked for like Credit Suisse, I worked for Goldman Sachs. And I was like, Yeah, reach the top of what I could do. You know, like, the people are wanting to work with me. But then I was feeling oh, like I was feeling dirty and feeling not really accomplished, like something was missing. And I started to look around where other people were doing. And I was really into trying to work with governments are like, the one that I really wanted to do remember was like, What about helping people to have food stamps, benefits? Like how can I help real people, people are really in need of something, rather than wealthy fools who just going to have another tool to invest and sell and buy millions of dollars. Like, there's something as I wanted to touch and I couldn't be useful. So I joined a few networks, like design group for goods, stuff like that, I started to like, be more open being to different communities. And I realized there was a lot of other options. I look around new job listing that were not start like for like, those types of startups that were like looking for work stars, ninjas, and more like, How can I enter that world of being more meaningful, and I think more impact, like I was working with a video game company for like 18 months, something like that, out of Palo Alto, I was in New York working remotely. And I ended up having I could be Grand Island's I couldn't work for three months, had high fever, I had to stay in the hospital for like three weeks, something like that. That's where our resets, full resets. And I start to work again, with the central bunny after like three weeks, I could not understand anything on the screen, like my brain was overwhelmed just opening my laptop and looking at sci fi, I was happy designing like I was building a very complex tool for telling stories through text messages. And I was and I was designing the whole interface. I was working so many hours. And CEO was slacking with me at any time of the day. And I was super proud and excited. And I had a lot of like, momentum. And when I had to come back to work to that my brain was like, no, no, you're not going to do that. So literally, I looked at the computer screen, and I couldn't understand anything, or what was on the screen. And this is where I started a long journey of healing. And during that healing, I also really thought about, wait, what I want to do, who I want to work with who I want, where is the impact I want to have. So I it took me a few months to like being able to move to that fields.
Right. So let me ask you really quickly, right, you were having a moment where you noticed that you had to heal, and then even going to work was very anxiety driven, right? Like you literally couldn't interpret what was on the screen. When you realize that, you know, you're having this moment and your body knows that it's time to take a reset? Is that just job related? Is that life related? Or is your body telling you one thing your mind telling you a different thing? How is that happening at the same time life is happening with you, Max?
This is? Yeah, I think this is the climax of why I needed to shift in a lot of ways, professionally, and also my own identity. So what happened is that this specific moment when I burned out was a mix of three things I can see like too much work, but also their work. And this insight voice that was always this mentor that was really abusive and controlling, telling me that I was not good enough that the work I was doing was not reaching the levels or working with international companies or whatever, like whatever that goal to be enough, as a designer that's unreachable. That's something I would have never been able to reach. But I was forcing myself, always thinking what this mentor would have thought of me doing this. So I was not working with that person anymore. But his voice was still there and very present. And the third which was also very strong that I started to my body and my mind were completely disconnected. Because until that moment, I was a woman. I was born a girl. And I was raised as a woman until I turned like around 30 536 years old. And I was still fully in my mind a woman until that point. So those months of healing. Were also V being in the mess of like, started to be traumatic to woman. I was married with a Sis sis guy. For many years I had a kid with that person like shade that I carried and gave birth to and a lot of shifting and my identity happened that specific moment So during the month of healing from the burnouts, I spent a lot of time also exploring, I was really attracted to looking at what trans people lives were and like, very committed to super trans people and like, why, like, I was always like, yeah, LGBTQ folks shouldn't be accepted and, and I was like, Why do I care so much about trans lives in that winter, I traveled to Australia to see a family member. And I decided to go for haircuts. I had like a blob, and I wanted something shorter. And all my life I heard my mother said, my mother would say, don't get it shorter, because you have a very wrong face and you make you're gonna make you look ugly and fat. So I never have this. And that I was in Australia after like two months of really figuring things out in my life. And I you know, that's maybe that's the time I should have a short haircuts. So I asked that. And during the cutting of the my hair, I looked into the mirror, and I saw a glimpse of who I am now, as Max. So I was a mother with my kid pushing the stroller in Australia, and I was wearing a dress very feminine. But in that moment, for like, three full seconds, I saw him as much as and that's freaked me out. And I didn't know what to do with that. So I just closed the door, like, what's that? I had a very intense moment where I couldn't take it anymore. And I needed to see a therapist that I found. And the night before, I was interested in our therapies, the service arounds, this therapist is trans. That's interesting. Why would I pick a trance therapists? And that was it in my bed the night before the appointment, I would like both back I am trans. Oh, wow. And that really like started a whole different life, a whole different way of saying a lot of things. And that's where I changed also my work. This is what I owe. That's my calling. This is it. This is inclusion and trans inclusion. I started making different projects. And I, I ran the trans inclusion company for like, two three years called eyebrow collective that I co founded with someone else. And I stopped doing UX UI design for just playing mainstream. I started like really about how can we make better experiences for trans folks. And I explained that to all underrepresented communities. And I feel so much happier. Just being myself. Finally, I found myself it makes so much sense for all the years I spent as a kid as a young adult, as like an adult. And for the work is like everything is aligned. I know why I'm here. I know what I'm doing that work. And I know I have the impact I was looking forever. Yeah, the burnout was the beginning of something very important.
One, thank you for sharing, I really appreciate you being that vulnerable during this conversation, but to I think it was really impactful to hear how you were able to notice those moments, and really kind of start to consider little things like the hair cut, or who you chose to be your therapist, right? Like these things are happening without you planning them. And then they're helping you reveal and feel more comfortable in knowing what you should be doing next. Yeah, that's amazing. But I don't think a lot of us tend to look at those moments, we may kind of consider that as a Oh, it's just an idea or this or it's not a big deal, right. And sometimes we dismiss those opportunities in the things that we do, because it's not the way we're used to thinking not the opportunity that we heard, you hear somebody else's voice in your head telling you XYZ, right. And it takes a big person to be able to kind of look at all those things and see how something needs to shift. Right. And it almost seems like the burnout was necessary to allow you to start to uncover a lot of this stuff. Right. And you mentioned Argo, this consultancy firm, who are your biggest type of clients, and how do you get them to really embrace diversity, equity inclusion, and of course accessibility into their practices like what are the first steps like how do we do that?
That's what I wanted to figure it out. There was like doing hosting workshops. And that's really also like something already a thrive in helping people use their own creativity. And as a collaborative group, figuring out solutions, we wouldn't have not found by ourselves, so my take on it was like, this won't be trainings, this won't be like learning trainings, it's going to be workshops. So I use all my service design workshop skills into inclusion. And the most interesting was like the one I already do ask versus the pronouns is like, I have activities on how to make people who are cisgender, Ronald trans realized important importance of respecting pronouns. So I built a framework with that with the scenario, and questions and groups and sticky notes, and how to find solutions around trans inclusion in their own team or company. And I have another one when I was super excited to deal with agencies, where I have them map out the user journey of someone going through their main product that they have, and pain points where there is exclusive, not so non inclusive moments. And then what can we do about it? And every group, like if it's a big team, I put them into small groups or breakout room, if it's online, and they work into solutioning. What could be done at this point, what can be done like that. And the bigger one is what I do that is also part of like, building a diversity, inclusion, equity accessibility, like framework strategy for the whole company. And all that is pure service design workshops, it just instead of like, building a new tech up, you're building inclusion design frameworks, strategy for your company. And that's how that was so exciting for me is that there wasn't mixing both of my purpose in life. Yeah.
So is it more internally driven or front facing? Or is it hiring practices? And who you hire when you're working with companies? What are they most interested in?
It's both honestly, I haven't worked with a company, Hornet. It's an agency. And we did both. Like we split the teams into who were the product designers, who were the people were more internally. And then I had two workshops on different days. And then we had a collaborative all together, about how do we do that together as a company. And I enjoy both of those, because you cannot just work on one and not the other at all, it has to be like, level up, you need more trans people, queer people, you need more black folks, people of color, people with disabilities in the team's like, company has to be more inclusive and more diverse in who are in the company to do better products who are inclusive, like, it's not just like, a quick one on one class around how to add products to your forms, that can work for like a fix at the beginning, you know, but then No, you need to have engineers that are actually not just CS, white stripe dudes to have better perspective and growth through like more community centered design, thinking of other people who are not included in their product yet, thinking about how people are treated in the company, like in very intact companies that don't pay attention to that. There's like very little woman in engineer and development because they stay one year. And then they like just leave the columns. Take it more from the toxic masculinity in the teams. So there's like a both are like very important. So my goal is like always trying, which which port of entry should we go with? And I challenge the leadership people also like, if it's only sis, what's the dude in the leadership? How can you imagine women people of color people with disability, queer trans people imagining them? themselves? Like, because it was managers? Yeah.
Right. Right. Playing those roles is, is something that needs to be really embedded in those cultures, in businesses. Obviously, they're hiring you to do these workshops. So what is the reception to that? How has that been? Yeah, so
it took a while for us to like, get more clients because we were both very excited about training people having those workshops. That was tough. Like my regret is like we spend too much time into trying to convince people we're like, so far, in the exclusion way of being and after a while, a long while, we just go okay, what if we just go to companies who already have some type of inclusion incentive ways like people who already have on prem resources ribs for queer people also, black people like, what if we do like, like aim for like, the less difficult entry points. And we had the best scenarios where when we had someone who is an employee wanting that service, but also had the support from someone who is handling the money, like someone who's actually can say yes or no to a training. So that's narrowing down a bit of like, Who can we get a contract with? Life is tough, I was so committed today that I really I stop taking clients on the side, I would like to have a bit of money on the side, I'm going to do it, I committed one other person to it. And after two, three years, we had success. But we had recovered all our expenses, like we managed to pay ourselves quite well read all in there. That was not sustainable. Like, we are not like we're not a big company, we don't have a lot of resources, we're not wealthy. So we're just doing that with our own savings. We decided to stop trying to get this company up and continuing. So I still do some of those workshops on my own. The specific workshops, we like, decided, okay, we need full time jobs, when they pay the rent, and it's down. That's how the thing is right? It's like, you need to be so wealthy or have access to money to be able to stay afloat. When you're like trying to build something that is not an easy, you get pushed back. And you have to, like you need a lot of Treasury to get build up on that we work with schools, like with New York, New York school, school, I think if we had more money, we could have like, make it last but much time for like contacting someone. And by the time we say, hey, yeah, we should do the training. And by the time they come with their manager, their manager, and then the company and the budget, we have people contacting us. Oh, yeah, we talked to you 10 months ago or a year ago. Can we do this workshop now? Yeah, sure. It's like, so yeah, the first two, three years, we're like, we did our best and we couldn't survive. Like we don't have it. Yeah,
yeah. It makes it really tough when the passion that you have for some of these things are need to be rooted in making sure the business survives, right? That's a very challenging thing. And I'm glad to hear that, obviously, you'll still do workshops. But unfortunately, the company in the in the big drive is a little bit different. The motivations are different, just because the economics need to be there. So that seems to be why you start to focus on all these other services on industries. And like we mentioned, I think it was out of the all of us, right for Yeah, yes.
So what happened after that is like, I don't have any regrets, really, because, you know, I came out as trans. And maybe, I think it was like, two months after I came out four months after I came out. I had this light bulb or like, oh, I shouldn't make service design and inclusion. Then by four months later, I was doing my first workshop. And I was still learning what queer means was being part of the queer community means what? My identity as trans doesn't have to be the same as anyone else. Like I didn't know, I was like a baby queer, baby trans. So I also challenged my own white privilege. Also, like I had to like, I had to learn so much, and more about underrepresented communities and how to like care for people who are not don't have any kind of privilege. So I learned through that as on my personal life, while I was doing AGA collective. So when we decided like we could continue to do it. My man was very different from when I started it. And this is where I don't, the time was so good, because I was really at a time when I was able to join the fellowship at the Blue Ridge labs from urban hoods. And I spent like six months with them, working 4050 hours a week on building communities, and learning more about community centered design and really doing that every day and building my own knowledge and skills and network of people. And that really was the aha moment to have like, oh, I needed to know a lot more about Black Lives. I needed to learn more about people with disabilities and people of color. Like, I was looking at everything as a trans, queer, white person. When I was doing Argo, I started to shift while doing it. But my anti racism started at the end of that I'm like, Okay, well, I might not be the right person to do Argo collective because there's also racism, and it's very, like, it's just intersectional. I grew from that. And then when I started to do more community centered design, I wrote Do you want to do healthcare and this is where you asked earlier right is that for me healthcare is more like access to health care, and how different committees are not really the same way. And there's more death rates for black folks black person giving birth, or like, so highly different from white folks giving birth, and stuff like that. So I was like, I got into led from projects that were around healthcare, and I made my way to, in this job I do now I do it for a year now. And I, so I worked for the National Institutes of Health, and I work for the specific program Research Program, all of us. And that has been so rewarding, because the core of all of us Research Program, right is to enroll people living in the US who are from underrepresented communities, so we can gather their health data. And researchers can make discoveries using data that are not just from white sis, straight people, which has been all the time since now. As medication they like, a lot of things that are only have been created for white people, and able able white people. So there's a lot of things that we take into like into, of course, we take that pill with that specific dosage. But if you're like, more heavy, if you have black ancestry, those that don't work the same way. And you I need something very different. So there is a program is all about that. And it started five years ago, and I'm very honored and proud that I joined this program and I, I work with an amazing team of folks. My goal is my role is about onboarding is like, how do you contact? How do you enroll people who are just curious about it? How do you manage the black community being very scared of governments and research from all the trauma in the past? That's fascinating. And I work with all the divisions over there, the columns, the Engagement Division, or the My work is a lot of workshops. It's a lot of like, getting those siloed divisions to work together. And one of the main product I did since I joined was redesigning the homepage of the website. So it's John Oliver's dot org. And I work with like many divisions, and I push really hard into having copy that is really inclusive, that really like, how can we care for people who are not, like, can't read easily, don't have all the knowledge that people are afraid of what that means? It's a lot of work. It's a lot of politics, it's a lot of like, managing people's expectation, ego, and fear, fear of like not doing right, right. And it's an absolutely amazing journey. I plan to work for that as long as they want me
know, it's so interesting, because one of our last guests, I'm Jessica Odie, she's a disabled graphic designer from Canada. And she did an illustration for I think it was National Disability Day for Yahoo, and just talking about her process of making sure she includes disabled people, non abled bodies, different skin tones, different cultures, ways to understand that it may be trans representation, wheelchair representation. Ableism. Right. And I think part of that, when you're looking at the homepage of the all of us website is to make sure that you're including people, right, so that if you're going to be taking research from the black community, there should be black people No, like, there should be disabled people on the homepage, it should be not only cisgendered people on the homepage, right, so that it feels inclusive, it is talking about equity and things like that. And I think a lot of that is just to be seen, or hate when you feel seen, it feels a little bit more comforting to be part of some of these datasets where you know, we do need to have more information because, like you said, the body does not go through things the same way, culturally, emotionally, all of those things, and I think we always look at through one lens, I think that's one of the major problems we tend to have is it's a very binary lens, it's either this or that male, female, you know, it doesn't take into consideration so many of the other nuances that go into it. And like you said, the mortality rate of black women is so much higher than that of white women and very rarely isn't ever discussed. So I really just, you know, thank you for being part of that and helping you know, to continue to push the representation and inclusivity of other Non sis white male forms in design because I think it's such an important thing. And I'm looking at my notes and I heard something which it really struck me right, which, when you were thinking about Argo, and you were like, I may not be the right person to do this. All right. And you're an author of a book dedans called you don't suck, which talks about impostor syndrome, which is basically that quote, in a nutshell, right? I may not be the right person. for.dot.we heard a little bit of your challenge and the shift and the way you change thinking, which I think is amazing, right, but how did you start to connect the dots? That that was like being an imposter? creatively? And what is the process of starting to overcome that?
Yeah, I want to go back to like, I might not be the right person to do workshops around inclusion. It's also because I'm not black, because I'm not part of people of color communities. I'm mostly able, I like to say, because I have some health issues. But one of the 10 principles of design Justice Network that I'm proud of, is do not create something that's already been created by communities. And my mistake was Agha was I know it all, I'll do it so good, that I didn't take the time to like, hey, is there anyone else doing that work? That all you like, well, doing it part of different communities. So that's why when I say I might not have been the right person to do that, it's more about the couple. There being humbled and let other people do the work. If they're already doing and supporting them. I could have been like a good supporter of that. But for the imposter syndrome, the thing that happened for me, the really ha moment that I started to think about imposter syndrome was, I was struggling with impostor syndrome my whole life. And one day, I was like, like, I was depressed. And I've been diagnosed bipolar since that, that's part of the discoveries I had in the past seven years, right. But I had very deep depressive episodes, very high manic moments. And on those very depressive, that moment that could last weeks, it was hard for me to really enjoy life. And I appreciate the hard work I did and the good stuff I've done in the past. So in a very clear moment of my mind, I'm like, What, no, whatever I do, every time something good happens, something I'm proud of something that I did, I'm going to write a sticky note and put it on the wall. And so I did that for like a week, or a month, I forgot. And the next time I was very depressed, and couldn't do anything and felt like I was a failure. I just looked up on the wall. And I saw all those blue sticky notes everywhere, on like, all the stuff I accomplished. And eerie like was like a big one for me like, oh, wait a second, I'm actually doing good stuff. And it really helped me not to go too deep on that depressive moments. And I started to like, think about how this brain and how it helped me. And I also thought about how in work, how my values could be, I could listen to my values when I look for a client. And like someone who is overtly racist, someone who doesn't care about communities, I should not work with that person. So I started to have like, a framework that I got inspired by draws IA from Chicago, I forgot the name of his company,
but good studios, very good design studio. Yeah,
it has also had this framework of like, I call it the very engraved like, I think like what are your values with this client or job? And so with this value or not, yes, no, yeah, no. And the end, you look at the well, it's more checkmarks. That's where you should spend time and resources on. So I had those two things in my mind. And a friend was struggling, not the same thing. Like they were not doing enough. And I said, You know what, let's hang out. And I bring some sticky notes. And so we hung out, I had them do the exercise of the varying grades. And I told them to do every day writing what was good and put it on their wall. And they were like, completely changed. Like I literally had dinner with them yesterday and that was five years ago and the way they thrive and as an author and everything and play writer now it just like amazing to see. So I started to like do workshops doing that for more people are like, Oh, if that helped one friend, well, if it's going to have other friends started that for like six months. And these are like you know what? Maybe if it's a book, maybe for those exercises in a book, so more people can access that. That will be cool. And I didn't realize how hard it is to write a book but I would like my living room was covered is sticky notes everywhere with all the stuff I wanted to put in that books, I created more activities. And I started to rock my life, right to explain all of that we talk today. Like how I reach that moment of like, oh, imposter syndrome, I should manage to shut it down. How can you be friends with your imposter syndrome? And like, Okay, I hear you. But you know what I also did this 10 Amazing things today. So shut up. I wrote this book pretty quickly. I got into other writers or authors like I studied during 2020. I had a lot of time on my hands, and a lot of anger from the world from the murder of those Floyd's like I was like, really like burning all that anger fire. So I just spent all my time doing that. I had some I work with a client, but I was doing that a lot. Like, I was very focused. And again, I was not diagnosed as bipolar yet, so I had like, four months of high manic excitements. And then I was very depressed for three months. That wasn't my creative moment or like, so Yeah, nobody will go in that very high moments I cover in my sticky notes. I had a table with everything I wanted to say very well organized. And then I started to write, and I didn't stop. So I share my life. I share those exercises. And then I, I got an editor, I am self published with a publisher that helps people to wear their first book. And yeah, so like, I started, I think, like maybe June or July 2020. And I released it last year, like March 2022. So like, two years, and not bad, so bad. I wanted to release it the way shorter and then my publisher could like, hold on, there's so many things you need to know and to do. So that's not gonna happen this year. But next year, yes. So yeah, that was like a big, big amount. And like also like our water book, right? Talking about crushing your imposter syndrome. Like, exactly,
I did that. It's here. It's a big post it note. Yeah. And
it's like it's exist, like, it's a real thing, right? It's like, I can't avoid that. I did that. So that was like a bee. Yeah, I'm still struggling with impostor syndrome, you know, time to time we do all but have techniques, ways to like, accept and move on.
I mean, one chronicling all of that, using sticky notes, also understanding the highs and lows of bipolar and when to be more productive, and when to know that your, your body is not going to be productive. That's literally the low of bipolar. But working into that, right, like using the manic stages to get everything out. But then hopefully, you know, at some point, looking at all the posted when you're in your low stage and kind of at least having some like, Oh, this is what I'm doing. Right. But why is creatives? Are we so scared of being an imposters of something? And who puts that in our heads?
I talked about this in the book, not enough. That's what I'm doing my regrets is society, white supremacy, capitalism. And I think, because of the pandemic, and people had more time in their home, the lucky ones, the people who don't have to be saving people's lives, literally, that people like we're working in companies, and maybe not like corporate companies, tech startups, started to feel like, you know, what's, what if I just take it slow? What if I actually think a bit harder when another black guy get killed by the cops like, people are starting to think more and having more like, time to think, and this is exactly why capitalism and white supremacy want us to stop, not work nonstop, always have something to do always have a mortgage to pay, or it's like be focused on like, you have to do more and more and more and more more. Because if you stop and you think it's like The Matrix, like you're like, wait a minute, doesn't make sense. This is wild. Why would I do that? And I think we sit on that 2023 There's still like, a lesson to the essence of like having a job like what having a job means like, I'm not going to work after hours. Just more thoughts around why my body is used to make wealthy people richer. And I think that's part of also why I also use that time for using all my thoughts about life and I had more confidence doing that. But yeah, white supremacy and capitalism are the reason why we are the imposter syndrome. Not because we didn't do enough not because we are gonna go to the specific college like we all are creatives, we all have potential to change other people. was lives, which I think is it's a goal like that's my goal in life is like Awakening people and having them pursue their own destiny like not working nine to five. This is not anyone's destiny. nobody's supposed to work nine to five, until they're like 60 or 70. So I am, I feel I didn't talk enough in that book, because I realized a lot of that while writing the book and publishing, but I talked about it now. And my friend Sarah told me like, oh, you talk about it in the book. So I guess I do, but I keep. That's the thing was, like, ah, that's one book, but I wish I had put more stuff in it.
That's a second book, you still don't suck? Yeah, like,
this suck.
They suck, you don't suck. They suck. That's great. So who do you think, should read and do the activities in this book? And what is it trying to help them with?
So I definitely thought about that a lot. It is a perfect book for someone who was like me, was someone who was like, I worked for hours for this job, but I don't feel fulfilled. I don't know what to do next. I feel burned out something is wrong with me. And I want to help those people realize that nothing is wrong with them. And they can build that confidence in themselves through the activities and find their purpose, right. It's like you actually have a purpose. That is more than getting your your salary and pay your mortgage. I tried a lot of things in my life, and I love trying things. And I'm not scared of change that some people are, and I want this book to be someone like holding someone's hand, or like going through that journey of like, I'm scared, because what I'm doing now is making me feel awful. It makes me feel depressed, it makes me feel burned out. But I don't know what to do. So I'm gonna stay there because doing something was too scary. For that, it's like change lights. My friend Rowan, who is I named them as the book doula in my book, because they helped me like, get their dirty things that I had to get out and like, overcome my own trauma to be able to make that book. So they told me like two days ago, that they gifted their own copy of the book to a friend because that friend was like, struggling into finding purpose in life. And this friend was sending my friend one send me screenshots of like, how this friend was feeling so changed after reading the book. And that's why I wrote the book, like I want people to like, have a ha moment into you're not alone, you already have all the tools, they're in you. I'm just here to open them to you. Because space for you to like, access them.
Beautiful, beautiful. No, I think that's what we creative tried to do is to put it in ways that people understand that give them the opportunity to see themselves in places. You know, you're a strategist and a researcher. And I believe that what you're doing is a shift that the industry in education needs. And so either as just in the way that you do workshops or tips that you have in your book, what are some insights that you think can help the industry and the education move in either to dispelling impostor syndrome or being more equitable?
All right, this is a tough one. This is a tough one, because I don't believe they don't really have the education in the US as been created to educate people. I believe that's they've been created, like schools originally were created to like, brainwash and make little brains very exclusive, like, follow what the society what the government, when the power in place, wants to do. Education in the US is propaganda. And we see that even this year, like with all the banned books, they're right theory, like all the bills going everywhere are like we should not use the terms you should I'm talking about this, because it does not support the power in place. So we should not educate kids to have free thoughts. I'm very I'm very sore, like sour, like very. I'm beyond anger. I'm anti cops. Because this has been treated for the same reason is to protect the power in place not to protect the people. And this I see the schools as the same. I have a kid she's nine. She's at a public school. I think just color is amazing because they are anti racist. I'm proud of the anti racist committee over there. It teach all about Native Americans, we have stolen lands. I love that specific school, but it's very, very isolated school, like most of the education is not about educating people. It's about having little soldiers. So that's my take on like, schools.
Agreed. I mean, I think it's very difficult. For me, as an educator, I think one of the things is to get people to have their own version of thought, I think, like you said, the most powerful thing that somebody can have is an idea, or even the ability to think on their own. So it goes against and it's kind of productive to the power structures, like you mentioned in this country. And I think, though, it's what helps drive invention, ingenuity, conceptualization, and I think you hit it right on the money, where you're like, all of these book bands, you know, dismantling affirmative action, are just ways to keep the status quo, because they're not really interested in and progression. It's just, you know, maintaining power structures. So, yeah, totally agree.
For me, that's also why there are so many bills on tight trans legislation and bills, that's the saying is, because I've been through that, the leap of faith, when you're like, I'm taking on young people, we're like, coming out as adults, right? Because kids, my vision of the future kids on have to come out. Because being any gender you want is part of what is actually happening. In my own world. I live in Brooklyn, I'm like, very, like, I have privilege in being a city that is more inclusive than others. But as an adult coming out, as trans means that you took a leap of faith into jumping out of the boat, and you didn't die, and you fucking thriving, and you're free. And you discover this other way of living, that is not blocked, constructed, controlled, and the the power in place, they hate us, because you're free, you free your thoughts. And you convince other people that they could have freedom in thoughts. And that's why there's so many control and hates, and no one needs to have gender expansion. And try to explore that, because that's not what's going to make good white citizens America, that's going to vote for keeping the power in place. And so being trans is already a revolutionary, because you took the step, and you're still alive, and you're thriving. And that's something that I I feel so like, when I came out, I was not feeling that. Like I was really feeling down and everything shifted. But over the last years, I connected with a lot of trans elders, transistors, people who like were trans before us. And people like Iraq, sharing about why gender is freedom, like freedom of gender is revolutionary. And I believe that, and I believe that, like I have a picture just above me, that says trans people will save the world. And that's what I believe. It's like, so we have to protect trans kids because they're going to be the one free world.
Yeah, I love I love the idea of healthy living in a world where somebody doesn't have to come out. You know, that's got to be very liberating. A concept for that.
My kid was gender expensive. When she was younger. She was using he him pronouns for a while she was assigned birth, female at birth, but she was exploring gender. And I never said anything. I just said, yeah, do you. And then when she was like, seven years old, she came to me as like, Daddy. I think I'm a girl. And I was like, good for you. Good for you. And this is hilarious, because it's like, she had to come out as a cisgender girl to me. And I was like this, this is perfect.
But at seven, they feel comfortable enough to do that. You know, I think
three, four years old, like three years old, she asked me to come to the pre K. I talked about pronouns with a teacher and the kids and I, she gave pronouns to all her classmates.
That's awesome. So, but as we get closer to the what if summit that's going to be in October. I want to ask you a couple of questions more specifically to that summit that's happening. Why should organizations be prioritizing? Dei?
I think we've seen a big shift in the past decade I would say. It used to be always about money, always making more money. So you would just go into where the money was, which is always white people most of the time through gender straight people. And there's a bit more consideration that happened. And now I really see, there's so many more talks about the Gen Z, people who are like, growing into like being adults spending money. And there's like, draft that I use when I do workshops, or like, so many people are in between gender in between sexual orientation and exploring. So there's more diversity in that aspect, there's gonna be also way more biracial adults coming up, there's like, the world is going to be more diverse, there's a very simple word for like something more complex. But like, all of that, also, we don't have more trans and queer people, we've always been here, we've been killed by people murdered in the past, that's why they are less now. And a lot of people died of AIDS, because the government didn't do enough in the areas. So all the people are should be now by all sides, elders, they're missing in those numbers, because they don't live anymore. So what I see is that the Gen Z and my kids generation going to grow. And they're going to have a high percentage of being queer, or being trans being like, having different gender identity, gender expression, and I don't want them to be killed. And they will really repopulate all the queer and trans people that were killed. And there's going to be more people asking for more diverse products and services. So it will become more like financial need, which I think is the only one that's going to make companies corporate companies make the change. And I see that already. Compared to when I started, Argonne. Right. Like, there's more, the companies are like seeing that need for money, that this should craft products and services for people going to pay for it. Which is sad. But it's also capitalism. So what did we expect it? Like? What did we expect? Like? Exactly, it won't change because of value ethics, equity itself? Because of money? Like companies or trust? Yeah.
So which direction? Do you see the future? Of the DEI landscape heading in? Do you see that in a positive or a negative direction?
Is that for me? Can we really improve a company that at its core, is capitalists? How much energy can we spend into improving those companies versus take care of credit new companies that are already based in core equity, diversity, accessibility, you know, like threads, the new social network launched by by meta Facebook. This is not accessible. They launched a new product in 2003. And it's not accessible. There's no like, alternative text for images that a lot of issues. Why credit new thing? It's the same bullshit, right? It's the same network for having people use it. So people pay for ads, people buy stuff from the apps, like, that's the same. What if we think about other ways, and that's what I do with all of us research program. Like, I want to believe that's what I do. We do a lot of research. We do a lot of like community centered research and testing. We like make the product and service for community centered we have also partners, I work closely with pride net is like the LGBTQ partner for all of us that care for trans and queer people. So for me, the route has to be community centered. And there's companies like that they are urgencies like that. Now, the formula future is like, I think that as a core and not trying to patch, either leadership of a company is still going to be driven by investors. That's the money is going to always be the answer. And the calls and all that. Yeah, I mean, down on hope, these days.
So let's bring the room back up. Right. Can you give us a little bit of a sneak peek about what you may talk about at the what if conference in October?
Yeah. So my talk at the what if Summit is going to be my process. So I really wanted to explain and show the process that I've been doing for redesigning the homepage of generous.org, the research program from the NIH, so I'm going to share all the steps that So we did to have a very inclusive design, community centered design. So I'm going to go through all the steps like we did user research with underrepresented people, Spanish speaking people, literacy folks, like, we like did an audit of the homepage, then I kind of take workshops with the different divisions taking, if each insights from the research, making sure everyone in the room like really understood the problem to solve right like this homepage does not provide enough information does not make people from underrepresented communities, safe and trusting the program, make stuff like that. And then high hosting workshops, collaborative workshops into solutions, in what should be in the new homepage, made a prototype got it tested, also, by underrepresented folks to have like insights on the copy the design, the visuals, we use the testimonials, all the stuff we put out there. And then we improved, like on into that testing, and then we translate it into Spanish. That's the only second language that the program is pondering now, but I'm pushing for more. That's part of my background, a word. And then we lampstands so that I wanted to share that it's almost like a one year project, one year long project. And that's the project I started when I joined. So it was also part of me learning how a big organization like the NIH works, how do you make people who are there for 30 years? How do you make them excited? Again? How do you make them concern about why the product is not inclusive? And why it matters to actually change that specific word like, until a little time they were using we are rolling 1 million Americans? And I was like, Hey, are we like, is it only citizens? We also earning people who don't have statues, people are on visa people are like, refugees, immigrants, like, so I every little thing I challenged. And then now we say 1 million people living in the US. And it happens again, like sometimes Oh, we oh, that's the word we use is American or like, No, we don't. So it's always like, so many people are so many, so many chefs in the kitchen. So many cooks in the kitchen. And so I'm like always like, no, no, don't change that. Don't do this. There's an intention between. Yeah, even the words I use for the buttons used to be like, see, watch. And I put like, discover, explore, learn more. Like even the word I use for buttons. I do my best not to add those words being analysts that I want to share all those details all the way I'd be working to credit corroborative and inclusive process.
Nice. Nice. That's amazing. I cannot wait to see what's going to be happening during that time. So now just let my listeners know where they can find more about you, Max.
Yeah, so I either website, it's Max major.com MX, and s, u or e.com. I'm also super active on Instagram. My handle is Mad Max Mazar. So same, like Mad Max is because I'm from the 80s. And then I'm on LinkedIn. Always happy to connect with folks. And, yeah, I think free best place to meet me or invite me to get an iced matcha. And I will be there.
It's good to know, that's good to know. I may just have to get invited to an iced matcha in Brooklyn. Yes. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. It was really one of these enlightening chats to kind of understand not only what you've been doing, but I really say thank you for sharing the shifts in you know, your own personal life in your career and how that's starting to transpire into more community driven things. So it was such an amazing conversation. I can't wait to see what you're going to do. And here are all of the homepage transitions for the all of us health care initiative webpage. So everybody check out the show notes and in social media to get any codes or tickets for the event. What if on October 3, and fourth, take care, Max, we really appreciated this conversation.
Thank you so much was a blast and I read pleasure to talk with you. Yeah, thank
you. This has been Works in Process. What a conversation it was such a great opportunity to hear Mac's talk about their journey, discovering about their own imposter syndrome, understanding what their purpose was as a creative and settings do work for the larger community and not just the select few. If you want to learn more about the various organizations, people or projects mentioned in the conversation please check out the show notes in your podcast player order website, w i p dot show. The Works in Process podcast is created by me, George Garrastegui, Jr. In the Content transcriptions and research has been done by or Szyflingier and this episode has been edited by RJ Basilio, you can find Works in Process and all media platforms such as Apple, Spotify, Google and more. And if you liked the episode, feel free to give us a five star rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Come on, be extra generous and write us a review. It really helps other people find our podcast. And you know what, just describe on the platform that you're listening to right now. It's that easy. Follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn to stay up to date on new releases of every episode. And as always, I appreciate you taking the journey with me and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Until next time, remember that our work is never final. It's always Works in Process.
