Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, my friend, what's happening?
Can I take us back a little bit before I introduce our guest, I because our guest is giving me some 2022 vibes. Do you remember what our number one trend of 2022 was?
I'm bad at We Are For Good trivia. I don't know.
I didn't. I had to look it up too, but it was, culture matters. And we talked about, how do you create an inclusive and welcoming internal culture that is so vibrant and so strong that it draws talent, donors, and just an entire community around you. And it's like, I read the bio of our incredible guest, and I was like, she's been saying this and preaching this for years. So community, it is my great joy to introduce you to Laura Buckley. She is a coach and consultant, and her area of expertise is creating these cultures where leaders and teams can thrive. It's that simple, y'all. And Laura is a former Army officer and dietician. There is so much here that I want to unpack, but she's right, right. And so now she's turned into this leadership consultant with extensive experience and facilitation leadership development, culture change and organizational assessments. But she works primarily with nonprofit organizations, and her joy is found in helping leaders and their missioned center teams make the small, tiny, incremental shifts needed to create these cultures of thrivability. So I'm going to give you this quote from her, because I thought it was really profound. And she said, I'm on a mission to change the culture of work so that our work and our well being support each other, instead of competing with each other. And the best part is, when people thrive, organizational success skyrockets. I want to live and work in that world. I hope you do too. Laura Buckley, welcome to the We Are For Good Podcast. We are really excited you are here today, my friend.
Oh my goodness, I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for that intro. You know, it always just feels so special and so warm to have somebody else you know, acknowledge your work. And so thank you. I really appreciate it.
Well, I just I believe so much in what you're saying, and it feels like this is a drum beat that we really want the community to hear. And so we really want people to start embracing this idea of incremental impact, of habits, of playing the long game and investing in their people, in their teams. But before we dive into all of this, we want to get to know you. So take us back, kind of help us get to know little Laura, and how did she come to be in this work, and how did the winding road of army and dietician lead you here? I'm just curious to know it all.
Yeah, it's such a I was actually been reflecting on this a lot lately, just thinking about the work that I do and why I do it, and all of the pieces that have gotten me to where I am today. I always say, like, as a child, one of my nicknames was boss lady. Like, I've always been, like, a little bit bossy, and I've always been really curious. And they're like, there are these two pieces of me that I feel like have really shaped all of the different opportunities I've embraced, or places I've found myself. And then the third thing I was reflecting on was like, gosh, I've always just been in this place of, how do we help people, you know, from like, begging my mom to bring a pregnant cat home so we could foster her and the kittens to, you know, just like, just like, always finding ways of like, how do we help, how do we teach? How do we grow people? And I think a lot of that is what led me into the army, is just, I've always been really drawn to leadership. I've always been curious about ways that we can get opportunities to lead. And the Army's a very leader centered culture. So it was leadership centered culture, I should say. So that was just I was very drawn toward that. And the same thing about being a dietitian, you know, it's like as a young girl, I struggled a lot with my own relationship with food, my own relationship with my body, how to balance fueling myself with the pressures of, you know, social norms. And one of the things I thought was like, Okay, this is something I've struggled with. How can I help other people do the same? And so I'd say, like, that's my common thread. Is like, what have I found hard? And then, how have I found ways to also help other people find their way through it so.
Amazing.
I'm just so glad you keep chasing that, because I think there's so much wisdom in that. And I talk to a lot of people in our community, and it's like everybody always has so much to offer. You know, I don't think you always realize it, but the journey you've gone through, the experiences you've had, like there's so much healthiness in sharing that and being a beacon to people that are, you know, a few steps behind you. So thank you for leading into that. I want to talk about workplace dynamics with you, because it feels like things are changing. I mean, at least even on the corporate side. I mean, a huge announcement from Amazon yesterday, everyone's got to return to the office, right? And there is uprising happening, yeah? But I mean, like, the dynamics are changing in our nonprofits over the last, I mean, my gosh, since the pandemic, things are just very different, you know, and we have different needs. What are you seeing? How do you see the dynamics changing? Kind of set the stage for this conversation?
Yeah, I think one of the biggest dynamics, and I did see that, I saw that headline, like, Amazon, January, everyone's coming back. I was like, oh my gosh, let's dig into that, because it's actually something I think a lot about. When I work with teams who went full virtual for the pandemic, the number one thing they tell me is that their well being was much better because they weren't commuting. They didn't have to leave their house. They had space in their day to take care of their life and to then balance that with their work. And the number one challenge they share is the opportunity to connect in a more organic and natural way. So how do we collaborate? How do we build team? How do we build culture when we're not sitting together and overhearing each other's conversations? And I say like learning about the organization through osmosis. You know those conversations you pick up on pieces of the culture in the organization, because you're just hearing people when you walk past them or when you bump into them. So when I think about how the dynamics are changing. I think so much about how do we continue to center well being, while also can like really finding ways to build those connections and to build those opportunities to engage with the culture when we're not all sitting together. And I know a lot of organizations are thinking the only way to do that is to actually come back together in the office. And I do think building connections is easier if we're just in person, we're face to face, but I think a lot of it is actually more about how we spend our time together. So when we are spending time together online or when we are in virtual spaces. How do we make the best use of that time so that we can support these dynamics of people wanting to feel connected and also wanting to have that balance of what's important to their personal life and to their well being?
Yeah, I think, I think you hit the nail on the head when you're talking about balance. Because, I mean, when I hear come back to work full time five days a week, I mean, my nervous system goes into overdrive right there, because there's no balance in that. It's all or nothing. And when we kind of look at the stats of what's happening in the world, specifically in the impact space for nonprofits, for people working, you know, in social services, and at the front of end of all of these issues, you know, we're trying to reduce burnout, we're trying to improve work life balance. We're trying to help with focus and productivity. And it's like, where is that balance? And I think that's what a lot of people are trying to pour into right now. I'm a working mom, you know? I work at home, so there are other elements of that, like I can't I sometimes sit in my chair too long when I would have walked away. And so I think what I really want to know, Laura is, how can we build that bridge between the work and the well being, because I think we have had, after 560 something episodes, we've come to understand that you cannot separate the work and the personal. They're going to flow into each other. So talk to us about that bridge, and help us figure out a way where we can make both the work and the and the life work together?
Yeah, I love that question. And I think, you know, it's something I think about all the time. You know, one of the things I think so much about, and I like stop saying leadership. I'm like leadership, or, as I like to say, how we human together in the workplace. It's like, every time I say leadership, I'm like, how we human together in the workplace. Because when I think about building that bridge between our work and our well being. It's really thinking about, how do we center the human side of work? You know, one of the things people are struggling with so much that leads to overwhelm and burnout is that we're really over capacity. So when we think of. Building that bridge between work and well being. Part of that piece is saying not just like all of the things we want to get done, like, what are all of the things? But it's also saying like, what is the actual capacity of our human resources, and how do we have enough, you know, constraint in what we say yes to to to allow people space to get up and walk away from their computers like, you know, you think about some of these things that interfere with well being. There are some really deep like interpersonal dynamics and conflict and things that, you know, we that are a little bit take a little bit more effort to address. But there are so many simple shifts we can make to make sure people have space to get up and get outside during their work day, that people know what their priorities are, so they can focus their energy and their time in a really effective way that we have real conversations with people and get to know them so they feel seen and heard and valued. These are the pieces of work that really support well being. It's finding that connection. It's feeling like people care, and it's having that insight into what people are working on as leaders, you know, asking you, hey, what's on your plate? What are your priorities this week. How can I support you? Do you have capacity to take on one more thing, right? And giving people a voice in that is such an impactful way to create more space for their well being. You know, one of the things I really think about is like, how full is somebody's plate? I don't know. I think you should be around 70 to 80 to 90% full, when so many of us are trying to function at 110% so we're cramming things in. We're trying to do two things at once. We're working past our work hours. All of those things really have an impact on our well being, primarily because of the work.
How many times Jon, in your work in nonprofit, did someone ask you, do you have capacity to do this?
Oh, right.
Like zero. We are not asked that at all. But I My point is that there is this culture of just get it done, of grind it out. And this is what we're talking about, upending. And you're talking about these little shifts of just asking different questions, even asking that question, really made my nervous system like settle down a little bit. It made me feel like I had ownership over my work, which is something we should all have so fabulous. I'm really loving this.
Yeah, I mean, we're feeling guilty talking about this, because I think I relate so much to small nonprofits. I mean, we meet like executive directors that are sometimes the only staff, paid staff on a team, too. And it's hard, it's easy to talk about these things. It's just hard in practice to realize, where do you shave off the edges of things when it's too much, you know? And so I want to talk about culture specifically, because I don't think it's something you can manufacture. It's like a series of so many decisions and interactions that build this dynamic thing. And I think of that quote that Ted Vaughn said, Remember that audible pause? Whatever he said this. He said, culture is a tension to manage. It's not a problem to solve, and it just jives with what you're talking about. Laura of that when we can each thrive, that's how our cultures thrive. So how do we get to that place? I would love to kick it to you to say, how do we start internally? You know, what are the things that we need to be doing individually to build that lead to this great culture?
Yeah, it's, I love that, and I love that quote, and because I think so much about culture, and I think about, how do we grow a culture, right? We're not trying to, like, a lot of like, leaders hear that word, and I'm like, uh, right. Like, uh, someone's gonna try to come fix me or tell me I'm doing something wrong. And I just want to acknowledge that culture is something to manage over time, and it's something to make intentional decisions about and to make small shifts toward. And I also really want to acknowledge what you said is that people, especially in nonprofit world, and if you have, like, an executive director with a small team, it's hard, right? It's hard to know exactly, like, what are we saying yes to? What are we saying no to? What's the impact if we do say no? I don't know if we have capacity, but I'm also sure, not sure I have capacity to say no, right? So just really want to honor that. Because when we think about making these shifts toward cultures where people can thrive, it is just like one small step at a time. And so when I think about these steps we can take at the individual level, you know, I think a lot from the leadership level and from the staff level, and I think from a leadership level, just even pressing pause before we say yes, right? Just taking one minute before we say that we'll commit to something, to know that at least acknowledge it's an option, right? And to be able to ask that question This is where I do think strategy and strategic plan is so valuable, is to say, like, is this truly aligned with where we're going, or does it need to go into the folder of like, let's revisit this when we have a bit more space, right? It doesn't always have to be like yes or no. It can be like yes or maybe later, really just allowing that to even be an option. The other thing that I really think about is, how do we engage people in their own work, in their own development? As leaders, we're so taught to have answers, right? Have the answer, have the solution, have the project, have the next step. And we're moving into a culture where, especially people who are newer in their career, they want to have a voice, they want to have an impact, and they want to have it now, so we can engage that conversation, instead of me having to have the answer to tell you what to do, to say, hey, what do you think? What have you experienced in the past? In just acknowledging somebody's expertise, regardless of where they are in their career journey, it empowers them to have a voice in their work, and people want to have that empowerment. That is, we empower people. We're automatically setting the stage for people to be able to thrive, right? Of course, there's more that goes into it, but like, that's how we set that stage. But the other thing it does for us as leaders is it, like, actually takes it off our plate, right? So now I'm gonna thrive a little bit more, because I'm not trying to solve everything. I'm giving some of that to empower my staff to make space for me. And it's an individual step we can take to be able to create that opportunity for people. So I think a lot about thriving so corny, like thriving and striving like humans are built, like we are meant to strive. And when we get that opportunity and we feel empowered in it, and we have some autonomy and some agency in it, then we create that opportunity.
I just think it's so brilliant in its simplicity. And I think about this concept of just share the work. Like leader, you don't have to take it all on. Nonprofit professional, you don't have to do all of the tactics. Person working in a social enterprise agency, you don't have to do all the strategy like there is a community around you externally, internally, and people who want you to thrive. And so I want to move into team building, but I have to, like, preface this with something hilarious. I saw on Apple TV the other day. Are y'all watching Loot with Maya Rudolph? I'm bringing this up Jon.
I've seen a couple episodes.
I just finished season one, like, literally, like, last week
If you're not watching Loot, it's Maya Rudolph is a billionaire who is working with her nonprofit foundation, and I laugh out loud at least once an episode because of how accurate, actually, yes, but there is a scene in one of them where the ED is trying to set culture by allowing everyone to have one minute to tell what they did over the weekend, and she has a clock, and people are powering through what happened to them, and she will cut them off right in the middle of the one if the one minute goes off. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is such old school team building. I mean, I'm seeing people in suits doing trust falls off the conference table, and it's like, help us. Laura, help us. Please. Like, how can we reframe team building so that we can start to build these thriving cultures? Give us some tips there.
Oh my gosh, it's such a funny visual. I think I've been management consulting since 2012 so I've been doing this for a long time. And as soon as it does, it doesn't matter who you're talking to. As soon as you say team building. People are like, I am not doing a trust fall.
Out. Peace out. Yes, totally.
People feel really strongly about the trust fall.
It's like, I'm not doing a trust fall and I'm not singing Kumbaya. And I'm like,
Yes, see this is how cliched it's become.
It really, it really is, and it's, it's funny. So I think about team building as like, doing good work together. So one of the things I think people hear team building, they think additional task, right? Like additional thing I need to spend time doing, and that's really not what I've seen makes the biggest impact with team building. The thing I've seen make the biggest impact is bringing a team together and working on solving a problem together in a really intentional way. So sometimes that includes doing some exercises that are a little bit outside of the norm, like, you know, drawing a picture about what the vision for the project is, or vision for sometimes we go as big as. Culture, but whatever it is we're coming together around is taking a piece of the work and engaging all of our voices and all of our vision and all of our perspective in how we're going to make it a reality. And it's such an interesting way to build team, because you really get insight into people's creative creativity, or into people's values, or into what people what's important to someone based on their role or their resources. And then we can move into a conversation around like, hey, what challenges do you foresee from your role? What challenges do you see from your role? What opportunities do you see from your role? What opportunity, you know, it gives us this opportunity to build connection with each other, but also with the work that we're all doing to support one organizational project, mission, vision, outcome, and so I think about team building very much in terms of doing good work together in a pretty organized and intentional way, where people can walk out of it, feeling like they understand the organization better, they understand each other, better, they understand how their role fits in to both of those things, right? Which is then something that is very energizing for people. One of the things people really want to know right now is like, How does my job in the work that I'm doing serve a bigger picture, right, especially in nonprofit work, and so this is part of how we can create that, while also moving the work forward. That's one of my favorite ways.
I love that so much, and I'm I'm taken back to early years Becky and I were running galas for a long time.
We call them galas. Oklahomans, sorry.
Yeah, galas. Whoever's listening. But I remember early years before our team really clicked and locked together. You know, the the show would be over and the fundraising staff would leave the building, while several of us were left to, like, clean up. And if you want to think
The team that put on the event, woohee.
If you want to think about culture. It's like if we're in this together, those are the moments a few years later when it was like the most celebration when everyone stayed, when we're all celebrating, we're all laughing, and we're all collecting stuff together. At the moment, it's like it is built in how we do work together. And I think the small thing is, really do translate. So I'm loving this. Can we talk about meetings, though? Because we have to talk about meetings, because a lot of us are in meetings, like a lot of our life, and I feel like you have this really interesting view of it's a blend of art and science that moves us toward collective action. So I want to talk about, you know, how can we better do meetings?
So meetings are actually one of my favorite things. I mean, people are probably like, oh my goodness, who is this? Because so meeting facilitation is one of the primary things that I do. I support organizations with how they structure their time together in a way that can be really effective. And so I think about this all the time, and one of the things I think about is like our time is one of our most precious resources, and in particular, when we're talking about cultures where people can thrive. It's important that we think about meeting time as something we need to optimize so that people really get a lot of value from it, right? I don't think we ask the question enough in turn, like, how do we make the most of people's time inside of this meeting? Right? So just putting a little bit of an intention around, why are we meeting, what do we need to get out of it, and how are we going to get there, right? Like, those are the three questions I want everybody to ask before you even decide you need a meeting, right? Like, why are we meeting? What do we need to get out of it? How are we going to get there? And if the reason that you're meeting, we can start right there. If the reason you're meeting is to share information or to give an update on a project, like, you probably just don't need a meeting, right? Probably one of the most important things you could do is cancel a meeting, right? Like, if I always say, if it's not a conversation, it doesn't need to be a meeting, right? Like, if you don't need everybody's voice inside of that time together, find another way to communicate. Create a video message if you just feel like talking about it and you don't want to write the email, write the email. Like, do what you need to do so that you can preserve that time. Because then when you do bring people together, they will trust that it's been thought through, that they'll walk out of it with something they didn't have before they walked into it. And that's another piece of it's like meetings are the place where we can really help each other understand the work that we're doing, that we can give people space to share their insight and their perspective on whatever the topic is, and so we in our meetings, that's part of the science of it, is making sure we're making space for everybody to share right to I always say to leaders like, just do a round robin where you say to someone, hey, this is the topic. I'd love your insight. We're going to do a round robin so people know that. You know, we don't need surprise call. Call outs to people in meetings. Nobody wants that. But if we let people know ahead of time, I know, and it's like, you know, listen in this day and age of meetings too, people can feel like, maybe we get distracted on our meetings, if we get called out in when we weren't expecting it. You know, that can feel
Then you accidentally hit the leave Zoom. It went off. Sorry, my computer died. Dead.
Am I frozen, you know? But give people a heads up, right?
Yes, let them know ahead of time.
Yeah, let them know ahead of time. Give them an like, give that make it safe to say like, you can pass. You don't have to say something if you don't want to say something, but we want to make space for all of the voices. And I should go back and say one of the things that I think is really can cause a lot of disconnection in meetings is when you only hear from the same people over and over. And I think a lot of people jump into conversation in meetings because, like, one second has gone by and nobody else jumped in. So they're just like, I'll jump in, but it
Guilty, but I cannot handle awkward pauses.
The awkward pause, right? So I always tell people like that, pause is the time when other people are getting their thoughts together. So let's create space. Because, you know, one of the things we talk about, it's very common facilitator. You probably heard it before, but it's just like that seven just like that seven second rule where it's just like, if you count to seven after you ask a question as a and when you're facilitating a meeting, somebody will jump in right if you wait till three, you're like, Oh, nobody has anything. Okay, moving on. But if you give people just that seven seconds of space, you start to hear from people you haven't heard from. So making sure we're creating space, making sure we're creating opportunity for everybody to participate and to get their voice in in there is like something we can do to really improve our meetings. And one of the ways I do that, because if we don't set it up at the beginning, we're just going to repeat our patterns. So I encourage people to just start using some teaming agreement around how we meet, just simple things like share the air. Be concise with your share so that we're making enough space for everybody to have their voice into the conversation. You know, agreements around use of electronics during meetings, which is a whole thing that takes away from the productivity and the effectiveness inside of meetings, like just having those agreements right from the start helps us all be a bit more accountable to this time that ideally we feel like is good use of our time together. Does that make sense?
Sometimes I feel like we just have these conversations sometimes for ourselves, which is how I'm feeling right now, because I think what you're saying comes back to what you said at the very beginning, which is, we're caring about people. We're meeting them where they are. And the thing that I hear so much in what you're saying is we all work best in different ways. There's not one magic formula for a culture. It's like a complete amalgamation of everything, of all of us, all of our quirks, all of our habits, all of our behaviors, everything that comes in and allowing people to be that way and allowing them to your point process in the time that they need to process, or having ways that we share that space, I think it's going to give everybody equal voice and choice. So this is really resonating with me. I'm so glad that we came in and just had some heart to heart about this, because y'all this is a different way of working. We are in zoom culture, like this is just a different way to work, and we're gonna have to go with the ebb and the flow of these changes and speaking up, telling people what you need, telling your boss what you need. Leader, it's asking your people what do you need. And that is such a reframe for me, of how we can help people show up to be their best. And so thank you for bringing this home to me, Jon, I think we got some work to do with the we are for good culture.
Always.
Work culture here, but Laura, we really celebrate story here, and we believe deeply in the power of philanthropy to heal human beings, heal communities. And we're wondering if there's a story of either philanthropy or generosity that has just stayed with you in your lifetime that you'd be willing to share today.
Yeah, definitely. The thing that's coming to mind is, yeah, I think a lot about philanthropy and how we give back and how we can give back with our time, with our resources. But probably one of the most impactful ways I got to engage with philanthropy was with a program called backpack buddies, something we have here in Anne Arundel County, where you can sponsor a child and then go to a school and you pack a backpack full of food for the weekend. So you work together with the group of other people, you pack these backpacks. But what's really so important to me, and I think is like kind of centered, and why I think about work the way I do, is that we didn't just pack backpacks for these children. We packed backpacks with the children. And I think being together and having them come and pack with us and get to have conversations and get to know each other, and it changed philanthropy from like me helping you, to us working together and getting to know each other. And I think that's the kind of philanthropy that just touches me so deeply is when we get to do it together, instead of just, like, kind of the separate between I'm giving, excuse me to someone, versus, like, getting to connect with somebody through the philanthropy. So that's really something that stands out a lot to me.
I love that.
Of course, the culture of giving stands out to you from this conversation, like it makes sense the experience that you had.
It's just such a great way to connect the community, right? It's like, I think sometimes we can think about it and like, as a dietitian, I think there's like, that sort of space of like, I'm helping, or I can tell or I can give, and it's like so much better when we just, like, get to know each other through it and
And know how to poke the bear.
I love that. Yes.
Every time.
Collective. I mean, Laura, this has been so fun. I love this topic. I think it's so applicable to everybody tuning in today. But you know, at the end of the episode, we always ask for a one good thing, and that could be a piece of success, habit that you've found along your life, or maybe a mantra that has stuck with you, something that just bubbled up, what's what's coming up for you today?
So it's funny. So I know you all ask this every episode, so you know, been listening, and I was like, Okay, I've got the thing, but is it going to be a little too simple, but here's what I'm going to say. Because we're talking about well being, and we're talking about space and we're talking about the human element. One of the changes I've been really working with people on, it's not like a lot of work, it's just a convincing really, is to schedule your meetings for 25 minutes or 50 minutes and always have space at the end to get up from your desk. It's one little thing that can actually support our physical and emotional well being, because we can. It gives us just a few minutes to get up, to walk away, to reset, and then to be able to come back and be present with the next person we're connecting with when we get back online.
So good.
It's literally that simple. I mean, I just
So simple.
No, I value simplicity. I think we have to get back to simplicity, because the work is heavy. Is heavy, the work is cumbersome, the processes are many, and if we can just get back to re centering our brains and our bodies and breathing you just gave exhale, physically and metaphorically with that suggestion, and we want more exhale in our work. So Laura, we know a lot of people are going to want to connect with you. Tell us where you hang out online and how people can best connect with you.
Yeah, I think the best place is LinkedIn. You can connect with me over there. DM me. Love to, love to connect. And then my website is just a great place. I have you can sign up. I have a newsletter on there where I send every about every other week. It's not a perfect system. I send out just some thoughts, some curiosities, some what I'm what I'm exploring related to leadership and well being.
Well, you are a gift, and I am here for this new level of work that you are really pouring into in the world. I thank you so much for coming into our community and giving us just the gift of recalibration, honestly and rethinking about the way that we do this work, it's a gift.
Thank you, and thank you so much for having me. It's been fabulous connecting with both of you.
