Retention is an Inside Job with Evan Wildstein and Michelle Flores Vryn

9:53PM Jan 30, 2024

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Michelle Flores Vryn

Evan Wildstein

Keywords:

nonprofit

people

retention

talk

michelle

sector

organizations

conversation

evan

culture

feel

survey

bagels

great

years

jon

data

job

donors

good

Hey, I'm Jon.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. What's up, Becky?

I'm so happy that we get to talk about retention today. And y'all guess what, it's a little break for you because we are not talking about donor retention. Today, we're talking about you. And we are knee deep into the nine nonprofit trends that matter for 2024. And these are really the themes that we see that are really cresting over the sector right now, they are really what we call like tipping points. And those who are brave enough to see it and can grab on to making adjustments making changes within themselves and their organizations are going to be the ones winning not just in 2024. But in the long game. And so Jon, I want you to like talk a little bit about this trend, because it is extremely near and dear to our hearts.

It really is. And it's something that we've we've lifted, obviously you can't hang around fundraising shops and not talk about retention, right. It's kind of the lifeblood of all of our development programs. But I think the eyebrow quirk moment, you know, that we've had in the last year plus of conversations is retention is the elephant in the room. But it's not just about our donors, like all of the data. And we'll talk a little bit about that points to we're having a hard time as a sector, retaining more donors than we're keeping. But we're talking about retaining the people inside of our mission, we feel like it's like this, this piece that no one's talking about is retention inside of our walls. We're going to call this trend retention is an inside job, which means how can we focus internally at fixing and creating missions that are vibrant? And so think back to all the conversations we've had about building a culture that's magnetic or a marquee culture like Mark Miller and Ted Vaughn came into our house to talk about how can we create that type of a retention culture that becomes a magnet to people outside of our walls? And in the same way, how can we expect a donor to stay if we can't even keep our staff wanting to stay and wanting to pour in and build their careers. And so I think this is the elephant that we want to talk about whether it's sparkling or not, like this is a topic, we want to lean into more and more than this season specifically.

So let's talk about some of the key takeaways around this theme. And if you've been following the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, that data keeps showing us that we continue to lose more people than we are retaining and I we have another data set and a survey that we're going to be talking about with our incredibly special guest and experts who are going to be diving into this. And I think the sector is just starting to like sort of sit up and take a little notice. And the question that we all need to be asking ourselves is how are we building a culture that retains and grows our talent from within? How many of us are just tired of looking externally for consultants for tech answers, when really the people who understand our mission, we say this all the time are right there on the front lines. So if we're going to build a retention culture, we're going to need a couple things. So the first one is from our good friend Tim Sarrantonio, has this great quote me says that remember that data is people. We all know our retention numbers for our donors. Are we looking at those retention numbers? For our own staff? Are we talking about that as frequently with our board with our people with our rabid fans about that as much as we are donors, because those are the people powering the mission? We also need to get curious if we're going to build a retention culture, we need to start paying attention to our people and not just asking, Hey, how you doing and hearing I'm fine and their head goes back down. We need to really create a habit of checking in and going beyond, you know, just those basic check the box things because people are not okay, we understand that we're in a capacity crisis. And it's going to require having some tough conversations and empathetic conversations. And the last thing I would offer is that you really need to build an intentional plan and culture around retention. We had an excellent podcast about this with Aila Malik, who the Venture leadership Consulting Group does such an amazing job of infusing this into organizations. And Isla goes in how you can break this down how to put rituals in place. How do you have this attitude of gratitude? And how do you express it to not just your donors and your volunteers but to your actual people that can be game changing?

Okay, that Aila episode is fire and that is one of them that we've included in our specific playlist around retention is an inside job. And I mentioned some of the others. But this is all available in the show notes. Because the heart of these episodes is not only just to like, get you inspired, and maybe like a little fired up about the topic, but to start, like unpacking solutions and like ways to get activated, click through that, and, you know, kind of queue up some ideas that's gonna get you really amped about retention.

And we don't want you to just think this is Jon and I's thoughts. So we went to the community, and we were diving really into this topic and asking the community how retention is affected them. And I think one of the prompts that we put out there, which was probably my favorite prompt, and it came from Evan Wildstein, has said, What's a traditional nonprofit darling project that you're willing to sunset in order to redirect financial resources toward finding and retaining talent? Which yes, we want you to know that you have to put money into finding and retaining people. And there was just so such an overwhelming amount of chatter around sunsetting, high stress, low net events. I mean, I want to give a shout out to Paula McLaughlin, who said that they retired their gala, and moved to something significantly less stressful, and they were completely shocked to find that it was as equally successful as the gala. It was just reimagined.

Yeah, I mean, that's the power of like growth mindset. It's not set in stone, like there's ways to evolve and grow. And then we got a shout out Lindsey Fuller, you know, she's in your playlist too. And we're gonna talk about her work through the teaching. Well, she chimed in with this beautiful quote, I tell you one of my biggest mantras, I pay people not rent, bye-bye brick and mortar. Hello, powerful compensation and benefits. When can you have more of those kinds of conversations in this space. She's like leading the charge and doing such great work. And then Brooke Hodnefield, she's with Slingshot. She said, choose people over task every day. And I think bringing back the humanity to our work, understanding that we're humans and treating each other like that is going to really connect with some of the data points, we're seeing that we're going to unpack with Evan and Michelle, coming up on Episode Two.

Amazing. So let's talk about who's doing it well, because I know you're probably saying this may be something that we really want to dive into, but we don't know where to start. And friends, please reach out to any of these individuals that we ever mentioned here. We are all growth mindset. We are failing forward. We are bringing each other along and the first one I want to mention you've already kind of lifted it is the mother Cabrini Health Foundation. Please go back to that Shannon Lucas episode. And listen to what they're doing to build in support for their team investing in therapy, investing in their mental health and wellness, having bigger conversations about what leave means. I think the teaching Well, you mentioned Lindsay fuller is doing extraordinary things that is also in the playlist. I want to throw a curious one out here especially for you, Jon as a retired barista, or I guess you're not retired, you're doing it everyday.

Once a barista always a barista.

Okay. Do you know Torani. Am I even saying that right?

Torani. Oh, it's like the flavored syrup.

The flavored syrup. Are you aware that they have the number one employee retention in the country? And it's because they are constantly having a conversation around? Are you happy? Is this fulfilling you? What else? Can we take off your plate? Where do we need to reorganize something there is a constant flow of communication about how can they help their people rise to their fullest potential and then they follow them and say, How can we help get you to your next great job. And guess what those people want to stay? It's incredible. And then last shout out to a nonprofit Teen Lifeline, tiny little nonprofit in Arizona. They're just an incredibly small nonprofit that is excellent at retention and they use tools like culture index, to be really mindful of their hiring and positional fit, so bravo to them.

Okay, so I mean, we're throwing a lot at you, but I feel like the B team compared to who is coming in as our special guest on this episode.

We are totally the JV team because we have brought in some powerhouses. And I want you all to just hold on to your butts because this conversation with our experts is going to take this conversation to the next level. It is my positive joy to be able to introduce Evan Wildstein and Michelle Flores brand they've been on the podcast before. They are storied alums and y'all when they talk, we listen. Evan is a nonprofiteer with 20 years of experience in fundraising and strategy. He has worked with amazing organizations like Juilliard School Asia Society, Rice University and the Houston Grand Opera. And he is such a fabulous fundraiser. He understands the heart and the mind I could not have this conversation without saying you absolutely need to go check out his book on servant leadership which is the 2.0 of servant leadership. We will look that up in the show notes. He is also a native New Yorker and lives in Houston with his amazing wife. Hi, Huda and his darling son Zane. And of course you could not have this conversation with Evan without bringing in Michelle Flores Ren CFRE, who has been a 15 year nonprofit fundraiser in the social change space, she's worked in communication, she's worked in fundraising. And if you're following any of her thought leadership, or Evans on LinkedIn, you're gonna see all of this play out. She's also on the board's Mission Capital and AFP Global. And she regularly presents a marketing strategy and nonprofit innovation, I cannot begin to overemphasize how incredible these humans are. But I will not emote because we got a lot to get to. So my friends, welcome back to the podcast, we're a little excited, you're here.

Excited to be here as a duo.

And you all have such a heart and passion for this topic. And I think the power of thought leadership is we were watching your data unfold, thank you for gathering data, by the way. And if for anyone that took the survey, that Evan and Michelle put out, thank you guys so much. And if you haven't, we're going to link it up in the show notes again, because we want more data. But it was because of this passion and this red flag that you were waving, saying there is something inherently wrong here. And we need to talk about it. And we need to double click on it. So I want to kick it to you give some tone setting to us. We just love to hear you all go deeply into how you became aware of this topic, why you kind of dove into it. And tell us what you're seeing within your own organizations and communities right now as it relates to staff retention.

Yeah, I think one thing that both Evan and myself pride ourselves on are being nonprofit practitioners. So we really feel and are a part of like that on the ground culture. We have so many anecdotes, just from all of our connections and networks. And I think both of us were beginning to feel like this collective rethinking of, is nonprofit work working for us, you know, and we, we were thinking this, we hear people coming to us asking these questions. And when it becomes just such a cyclical conversation, you begin to know like, there's a here here, right? Like there's something happening collectively. And we also felt like, there's a lot of surveys, people do a lot of surveys, but most of them aren't from a practitioner standpoint. And also, we felt like they weren't really getting to like the heart of what people were feeling. And so I like to sum it up, just from all the anecdotes, and my own personal experiences is saying, I think we're feeling that people used to fit their life around work, and now they're fitting their work around life. And that makes us act differently. Yes. And we're really beginning to ask ourselves, like, is this job this culture? Is it good for me, and I think that many of us are saying no, and walking away from things that, you know, maybe five years ago, we wouldn't have walked away from which on one hand is a great thing. On the other hand, it creates this new trend and massive action that we need to account for in our nonprofit systems.

I mean, you're hitting the nail on the head of why we love and value both of your insights so much. I mean, if you're not following these two on LinkedIn, by the way, like a provide this kind of thought provoking conversation, and Evan brings in some dad jokes, too, which is going to help the situation. But I love that y'all are speaking directly from the inside, because it's easy for us as podcasters to go to people that have they already have the headshot, they already have the bio ready, and they're ready to do with their talking points. But to talk to people in the work and doing it and wrestling through the hard questions, is why I super value y'alls counsel and your wisdom on this. So, Evan, I want to kick it to you to talk about what are some of the unique challenges about this whole retention idea that the nonprofit space is really struggling with? I mean, what makes it unique to our space, and then we need to pour into.

You know, we just need better bagels at the office parties.

We need a slide and a pool table.

You are so a New Yorker if you've picked bagels, that's amazing.

I know, I know, I do want to really push a bit more on what Michelle said that you know what worked for us before and let's think about all the things about onboarding about pay about things like that. Michelle, and I come very strongly from the philanthropic she's sort of the Marcomms philanthropy space, but we've also done a ton of board work, we've done other things and the things were, you know, in the past let's program director one leaves end of December, you know, they were making $65,000 a year forever. That person would leave at the job reposted in the next person in that iteration. Deposition will be posted at like $58,000 You know, that we used to go down. Now we're in this market where you know, I love this minor gift officer one I wish that title existed minor gift officer one, you know, leaves December 31. They were making 71 grand a year and they left because of you know, myriad reasons, but they said you know, I really we have child care and we have things and like I can't quite swing this Is there any way? You know, we've been talking about arrays for a while? Can we talk about the salary increase? Can you do 5000 More the powers that be say, can't do it budgets been set can't do it. $71,000 minor gift officer leaves December 31 position gets posted haphazardly. And then they're looking for an $80,000 candidate. And I've heard people say, I just reapplied for my old job because I had to do that. And this doesn't happen a lot, I think. But I've heard people say, I just left and reapplied for my job. And I came back as a boomerang employee, just for the money. And it's like, think about that, you know, Penelope Burk, and others have all this research on the cost of like departed fundraisers in the heart indirect costs of program people leaving all those relationships go, y'all, we just need to have some really, we make these complicated things like budgets and expenses, we make them complex. And there's a difference in complexity and complication. And we just make it, we've got to go to the board for that or something. It's like I see you spending $6,000 a year on these bad office bagels? I know I made that joke earlier. But can we just think about how to redirect some of those things. And I, that's stuff we're seeing, I think Michelle and I have been around enough to have heard that anecdotally, from people. And for this particular research. It's weird calling your research but like, we just wanted to know what people would say when given the anonymous opportunity to do it. And in a safe space, we don't you mentioned LinkedIn and stuff, go on LinkedIn, see how many practitioners are getting as loud as Michelle and I, maybe we're stubborn, maybe or something. But Michelle and I all the time here, like how can you say that? Like, isn't someone gonna from your job, or from your board gonna see you pushing and that like, I heard someone say, I was on one to Tasha and David's The Nonprofit Hive, as on one of their chats, and like the person I was chatting with said, Gosh, you've been around for 2021 years, you have pushed back capital that I don't have. And this is someone who has been doing their work for five to six years. I'm like, we need to hear you know, we older folk don't know what y'all are talking about. We need here, we need to have space to understand it. So that was that was really important for us to hear from the practitioners with no, no, no hidden agenda there. No, like sales pitch to sell them after. It's just good quality data.

You know, one of the things that strikes me about what you guys are saying is like, you're literally giving nonprofit practitioners a voice, in their own care, in their own career, in their own health. And, you know, we we sometimes get labeled as toxic optimists, which, you know, I'm here for, and I'm grateful for it. But I think we also have to talk really, frankly, about this topic. Because as you were building up this retention data, we were collecting mental health data, and it was just asking somebody, how does this feel? How are you valued? How are you compensated? How is your body and your mind feeling? How does that affect your ability not only to show up for your job, but to your point, Michelle, show up in life, talk to us about what you're studying, and tell us what you found. And I want the good, the bad and the ugly hit us.

Okay. Everyone gets your big coffee cup. comfy chair, sit up, right. We put this questionnaire out, we use an anonymizing tool to put it out, we want it to be clean, you all help to get the word out. We work directly with nonprofit organizations and their people a couple other networks. You know, when I speak with that the organization I work with Every Texan we have a great data scientist who like kind of guided me on like the you know, if you get a sample of 30 or more, you're doing good, like to be statistically significant. We got hundreds we got hundreds of responses. And what if you flipped to the end, as Michelle and I were talking through these with, you know, recruiters, nonprofit tears, hiring managers and stuff, I think like the headline was the results being disappointing, but not surprising. And we asked a bunch of questions we said, you know, what corner of the sector are you coming from? Is it healthcare, education, arts and culture, et cetera, et cetera? How many years experience do you have? You know, zero to five? Are you 30 Plus, we asked Are you looking for currently? Or will you be looking for a new job in the next year? And then what are the reasons why we give a great list and then had an other category in there same thing for people who are not looking? Are you happy? Are you not looking for a job? What are the reasons why? What was also I feel important to us is you know, we often talk about nonprofit stuff with nonprofit people and we you know, not that we'll run it like a business thing but like we really don't there's not a dyad between us and like that other world we are the third especially in the US we are the third largest employment sector but we don't often quite act like it so we looked a little bit about like how things compare to like all businesses, you know, there the Bureau of Labor Statistics has research out there on all industry averages, and so they they find, BLS, that something like 65% of people and all industry average are looking for new work and that's actively in a delete however you wanted to find it. So we looked at this survey that nonprofit HR did a couple years before COVID. That found 45% of their respondents, were looking for new work. And 23% of those people were looking for work outside the nonprofit sector. So like almost a quarter of the 45% were like, I'll just go make coffee. In our head, we said, the number is either gonna be way better, or way worse. And anecdotally, we think we know so we asked these questions, and a staggering three quarters of people came back is that the right three fourths of people came back 74%.

75%

Just shy of that. But it's we round up, said that they are currently looking for considering a new job or will over the next year, that's compared to that 65% All industry average. So we're in the social sector, 10 percentage points behind in a quality perspective, where all businesses are. What was deeply more interesting for us I think, is when we looked at those people who were looking for new job, two thirds of them said they were either not looking to stay in the nonprofit sector, or they were unsure. And the unsure number was the great, big, angry middle, something like only 34% said, Yeah, sure, we're sticking in the nonprofit sector. So when you think that three quarters of people who are looking or actively will be looking this year, and then the number of them who actually want to stay in the nonprofit sector. There's a couple things in the survey findings that I want bosses and consultants and hiring managers to like really listen to. But if you think one of the things we say in the survey is imagine you've got 16 people, one six, at your, you know, mid to small size nonprofit, make the assumption that 12 of them are going to be gone in here. And that you have created such an environment that a third of those people no longer want to work, or two thirds of those people no longer want to work in the nonprofit sector. So if very few other things are heard, in the annals of this survey, think like take a moment, if you're an organization that doesn't have like a function for talent, people culture, whatever that you know, thing that often gets delegated to like the CEO of EA, who is also like the office manager, and also the HR manager, think about that. The top line reasons that the people were looking shared with us is and I'll get into the percentages too. The big top one, which I don't again, disappointing, but not surprising, they have too much work, and not enough support to get that work done. There's a lot that we can talk about, about how to like read redistribute resources to make that possible. Right after that. They didn't feel like there were a lot of clear obvious growth opportunities. And in this sector, we often I always point to Kim Scott who talks about and we did one of Kim Scott's books for the We Are For Good Books.

Radical Candor, it was awesome. Highly recommend it.

She's amazing. Probably names Michelle and I will drop on this podcast and everyone should listen to it. But we often think of growth on people can't see but in the you know, associate to manager to director to Vice President we think in that upward trajectory, but like, what about the prospect researcher, or like the program manager who just like really kick butt at that and want to do that for the entirety of their career, we don't know what to do with those people, because like, they're really good at it, we could send them to a conference, but like, we're not making it clear for them how they can grow. And so that was reason number two, why people are looking for new work. And third, no surprise that they have inadequate benefits and compensation. Not the easiest thing in the world to do. But again, less bagels, redirect some of that money to salaries, harkening to Michelle's vision to include the people who are not looking. Big, big, big surprise for me personally, but not really. And we've spoken with some organizational behaviorists about this. 82% of people said, if they're happy where they're working, it's because they have flexibility with remote hybrid, you know, things like childcare access, like the companies that forever charged you to pay your car park, at the office, where you work, maybe there are things you can offer that are not very expensive, upfront, but oh my gosh, so 82% of people that was a big, shiny reason. So if you're a boss, and you're dragging everyone back to the office, freely, they're also think about the people that you're going to be creating that black hole of anger with and you have a reason that they need to be there. Second on that list, they wanted supportive leadership and management. Again, you've heard Michelle and I talk about those are two different things, managers, and leaders but that 64% of people said if they're happy where they are, that's like almost two thirds of people, because they have supportive boss and supportive leadership, then third on the list that they have adequate compensation and benefits and that's really catching up. I think that people are finally realizing oh, we can't, this really is a $86,000 a year job. We've been paying 50 for forever, and that person, they're gonna go have coffee. So that was a lot and there's more but I do want to pause and just see what what y'all think.

I mean, I feel like you're just trying to rile us up like the fire in my belly hearing these stats. First. Thank you guys for pouring into us. Thank you. If you're listening, you poured into this survey like it wouldn't be powered without candor, and like people pouring into this so huge gratitude there. But which I really struggle with like You know, we're all Seth Godin fans here. And I'm Michelle and I have like, you know, rift about this. But he dropped this book song of significance that I think came at a perfect time that it's like, we have a superpower in theory to me in the nonprofit space. So it bothers me so much to be like, we're this beacon of significance of a place to work that you can find value in. And this is what comes out of it, we should be beating that just based on what's possible, you know, and the vision we can pull people into and the uplift that it can provide people's lives. And it's so sad, that, you know, scarcity, or whatever the blocks are, or tradition, or expectations are literally holding us back. And it's driving talent away from solving the world's greatest problems. Like, I'm just so riled, you know, and he did that 10,000 persons survey and kind of backed it up with people, that's what they're looking for. So okay, get in there be you gotta respond to.

I mean, that was such a beautiful way to frame it. I feel like one, I'm not surprised. I'm just real sad. I'm just real sad about it. And even when you were saying that people were saying, Oh, I may be underpaid, or I may not be paid well enough, I just think that is so subjective. I just think that when we're looking at the trends of what's happening in business, what's happening with Gen Z, and millennials, they're just not going to come. They're just flat out not going to come to this sector one, if they're not going to be compensated well for it. And I think the compensation piece is a huge piece capacity building starts with giving your people actual money, and compensation benefits and seeing them as human beings. But, you know, I do think that this doesn't have to be our story. And that's where I'm sitting at is, we are such heartwired people, we are here for the change for the book for what we can affect. And it's going to take a huge movement of people all in who are in lockstep and saying the same thing, saying, we're not going to do this anymore, and we're going to have to wake people up. Because I am very fearful of what can happen if we don't. And let's be honest, there are incredible nonprofits out there who are doing amazing work with their employees, they're paying them well, they're giving them incredible mental health benefits. But we have to address the fact that this is just not our culture. And we've got to do a hard about face to change the tide. And honestly, I think it's going to change the tide on everything. If we can actually pay our people, give them leverage, give them joy of coming to work, support, psychological safety, I think everything changes when that happens.

Becky, I'm gonna jump in there real quick, because you said something I've been wanting to mention. Like, we have to see that like this right now is not our culture. And I bring us back to the beginning of the pandemic, to where we literally changed, you know, like the way we washed our hands the way we went outside in a matter of like three weeks. So I really like remembering that because when we have collective attention placed on something, the amount of change we can enact is radical, you know. So I really love like that reminder that if we all just focus on this problem, and go to a direction that we're all rowing in the same direction, I think we can do so much more than we even think. And Jon, you mentioned, Seth Godin 's book. I love that book so so much. So if you've not read The Song of Significance please pick it up and read it. But this kind of moves into like the answers or like the solution making to the survey. So I can hop in there because you like actually teed me up beautifully

Please do. Go for it.

So for me, in my mind, like there's two levels of answers. There's one level to where, like, these are things organizations should do tomorrow, and that's at the nonprofit level. So I'll start there. These are like the easiest ones, I think, to really digest. Two things come to mind. One, we have to really think about sustainable growth for our organizations, because a lot of the stressors that people are feeling when we back them out and reverse, like, why is this stress placed on this person at this time? It all does back out to what we're considering, you know, scale and growth, which is tied to our concept of success. So I want us to really interrogate for each nonprofit, like what does success look for you? What does it mean for you? Like, how do you gauge that? And I think in this, this race to scale, we're losing so much of the things that are meaningful to us, you know, including protecting our humans, right, like we're losing that. And so that's like one thing is think about sustainable growth. What does that mean for you and your organization? What does success mean for you and you know, it's not an easy answer, but it is something you can like tactically do. Another tactical thing you can do is really acknowledge your need for organizational slack. I don't care what nonprofit you are like you need organizational slack. And organizational slack is just admitting that you can't kind of go all out 100% with all of your resources, maybe you can only schedule 80% of your resources and leave 20% for like things that pop up. So you can't really like push things to the max with a resource you have, you have to have some slack built in intentionally, because things happen, right? Like, that's just life, you know, things come up last minute. And so if people are already maxed out in terms of the amount of work they have on their plate, they have no room for extra stuff, which I think so many of us are feeling right now. So just build in organizational slack, like as part of your strategy. And those are two very easy things, even though there are big things. I think the second level of answer is more like on a sector level. And so I think the questions to move us forward are less about deciding what to do and more about deciding who we want to be. And these are like deeper as existential questions, which I find really exciting to move into unhealthy, unhealthy, unhealthy. And I've been thinking about this, there's a systems guru at MIT, his name is Otto Scharmer, S C H A R M E R, we can link him in the show notes. But he's just like a fantastic systems thinker. And he talks about how we have this need to upgrade or operating system. And I love this example, because it's so much like we can all we all know, operating systems from our cell phones, right? Like, cuz you have to update your system, it's annoying, like things get reset. But if you think about, why do you upgrade your operating systems, you upgrade your operating systems, because if you don't like you have enhanced security risk, like developers, you know, regularly find and fix security holes, like protect you against viruses, you have new features that rollout so if your operating system isn't upgraded, like you won't get those. And you also have compatibility issues, right. So you can't put like car parks for a 1960s car on a 2000s model. Like it just it's not compatible, right. And so I think that this is such a great way to kind of wrap your mind around this nonprofit system of like, we need to upgrade the whole operating system to where, you know, it's more updated, like things can be applied, we can think more about taking care of people. But ultimately, I think it'll be a more regenerative space for staff. And that's the question like I really want to move us into is like, on this podcast, but also just, you know, this year, right? Like, how do we upgrade our whole operating system in the sector, because we're past due, you know, things aren't working. And if you don't think about it at that system's level, then you're just talking about singular issues like retention donor, you know, donor attrition like, and it's more than that, you have to look at the whole connected piece of it. Because if you don't look at that, then you're just you know, updating an app here or there. And eventually, just like the whole, the whole thing isn't going to work, right. So that's where my mind is going in terms of solutions.

And then when you look at this research, what surprised you like what are some of the things that bubbled up to the top in terms of discoveries? What didn't surprise you? What what are those opportunities? What's something that that you can give kind of a 10,000 foot lens on what people are saying and thinking?

Well, let's go 100 feet in the air, we always talk about like airplanes. And like that's, that's so, so, so high. The thing that was surprising for me, it's because like when we looked at LinkedIn, at LinkedIn, and we listen to things, and we read, I think a lot of us who are nonprofit people, nonprofiteers in the sector, we kind of think like, it's toxic and terrible everywhere, because that's the volume of the voice. But in the research in this report, people came back and it was 48% of people said that they're looking for new opportunities, because they're in poor, toxic environments. That's still half y'all. That ain't great.

A lot of toxic.

Yeah, but on the list of things that were driving people to look for, consider new jobs in the short term. It wasn't as high as I thought, like E for effort, you know, we can work on that to Michelle's points, like all the time, we can work on that. But similarly, like when we look real when we bring down to like one foot on the ground. There's a lot of talk everywhere AFP Case and these other organizations about fundraiser turnover. And so I kind of thought like when you broke the data down and you looked at the fundraisers who were looking for new work, I thought that would be quite high. In reality, in this survey response, we found that marketing at 81% and public programs people at 94% were the two most in danger of looking or immediately looking for new work and the industries that they worked in were advocacy, public policy, and arts and culture organizations. So I think if I were to be cheeky, if you are a manager or CEO or something of an advocacy or an arts, culture, organization, drop everything, and go run down the hall and checking on your marketing comms and public programs, people buy them, one of those $6 Bagels, just go do that.

Michelle, do you want to say anything that surprised you about the research?

There is one thing that we touched on, but I will underscore it again, is I think the reason that people are leaving, because of lack of hybrid work, is something that feels like we can really own that we can do, like more flexibility into these roles. And it's just I think we know what's really important to people, so why not like, just give it a little more thought on how you can build in more flexibility. So that's something very real that you can like, chew on, you know, look at and that we know, that means a lot to people. So make sure that you're giving that option at your nonprofit, and you know, nonprofits, we never can never, but oftentimes, we can't compete with competitive salaries and for profits, but we can give more flexibility. So we should definitely do that.

But we should be competing on paychecks I like just want to start changing that narrative, we, I think we should be the most highly paid people, we are serving the biggest problems in the world, and y'all can just pat my head and say like, oh, Becky, you're so sweet that you have that dream. But I really do believe that we need to move that way as a society. So you know, we're going to wind up this conversation, and I really want to wind it up with hope, and with activation. And so I'm going to just give a little twist to our one good thing and I want to ask you both. What would be your one good thing you could leave with the community for somebody who could get activated in this cause right now, whether they're a leader, whether they're a brand new professional, whether they're exhausted and burned out, been in the sector for 30 years, what is one good thing that somebody could do today, and and I'll start with you.

There isn't, I don't know when it's gonna come out where it's gonna come out. There's an editorial piece that I'm working on where I wanted to talk with people, the people and culture, CEOs, et cetera, et cetera, looking around the social sector at nonprofits in particular who are doing things right are attracting great talent. They're keeping great talent. If people leave, they're off boarding them in a human way. Erica Keswin, who's a great organization is wrote this book Rituals Roadmap. And the new one Retention Revolution talks a lot about the boomerang employee, people that come back. And one of the things that I found in speaking with the organizations who I find are doing it right, and this is very practical, very tactical. They're doing what I call listening and listening again, and like the tag that I have to that is pentimentive listening. If you think like painters, painters do this thing called pentimento, where it's like, they paint, and then they paint over it. And like over time, the top layer kind of fades away, and you can kind of see underneath it. And so listening and listening again, is this thing, like, let's talk with our people. There's one great organization here in Houston that I spoke with who did this thing? I think they call it like connection cash. Because during the pandemic, they said, like, are you feeling close to your coworkers? And if not, what can we do about it? And people said, like, we can you make 20 bucks, you know, a quarter available, so we can go get coffee, and I said, boom, we'll do it. They listened. And then they listened again, six months later, whatever the time period was, people were like, we're a small staff. We've all connected. So like connection, cash is no longer valuable for us. We appreciate that you keep making it available. But listen to us again, let's talk about the next thing we want to do. And that thing, it's sort of like well, 99, we, we did a staff pulse survey with Gallup. And people said they wanted Sorry, I'm being silly, but like, you know, people said they wanted bagels. And so for 28 years, we've done bagels and it's like, you know, everyone on the staff is gluten intolerant. And but no one's told you. So, that's what if you are in a position of authority, and that's like if you've got colleagues in your orbit who listen to you, if you are blessed enough to be a manager, I think it's one of the best jobs in the world. Listen to your people. And listen, again, make that an active part. If you've got standing weekly meetings, management team meetings that occur with any cadence, keep, like don't just do checklist check ins do stuff that's like a round the people and listening keep listening, asking those open ended questions. You two, Jon and Becky are so flippin fantastic about this. That is something I think people can really lean into tomorrow. You're gonna check in with one of your teammates. How are you doing? Great. So I was working on this. No. How are you doing? It's Friday. What are your plans for the weekend? Oh, great. Do you have a dog? Let's talk about that. Write that down. Listen,

Every time.

And listen again.

Do you have a gluten intolerance. We could get different bagels. That's magic, the things that happen.

Michelle, what about you? What's your one good thing?

So my one good thing is based on the theme, I feel like of this conversation, which we're really talking about moving the sector from survival to abundance. And one quote I've been leading on heavily in this realm of thinking is by Grace Lee Boggs. And she says, movements are born of critical connection, not critical mass. And I just love that reminder. Because I feel like we forget that and even I was doing some research on the Renaissance. And you know, it says that fewer than, like, 200 core people, what kind of really brought the Renaissance on, right. And I think that we're, we're really trying to think about people at the top leading this change. But really, it's all of us. And what you do need to find it, there is a community of people that are interested in what you're interested in, because you need that critical connection. community centric fundraising is one that We Are For Good community is a second. So those are two things, go look at it, we just need that critical connection. Not necessarily critical mass, but we have that connection piece, and even just the people you've interviewed on this podcast, all of these people, I think we already have, we have the ideas. We have the vision, we have the ambition, we just need the infrastructures, the enabling infrastructures to make it happen.

This is Evan again. It's almost like if you do this, right, there could be some sort of like uprising of impact. I just came up with that.

I mean, I feel like we paid y'all to say that

I know I'm like remember when Michelle comes in and drops her one good thing of like, the We Are For Good community but P.S. totally come because we will love on you. And we do want to invite a bigger conversation. And Jon, you know, I have been on this soapbox for the last year that I just believe the reason we are here on this earth is to evolve, to learn to grow, to get better to and this is a huge part of it. This is such a moment, I would love to be at the forefront of changing the nonprofit sector for good valuing human beings. I am here for this revolution and the Renaissance. Thank you, Michelle.

I know my art history minor in college is just so thrilled with all this art references in this and y'all I mean, Michelle, Evan, thank you. I mean, y'all are literally lights, balm to this sector. I just really am so grateful for you. And y'all, we can do this. I feel like I want to put on my like Ted Lasso coach hat like, we can do this. It's going to take each of us, influencing, talking, sharing these conversations, starting the conversations with wherever and whoever you have influence with. So y'all, how can people connect with y'all. Let's link this up. How can we get this beautiful research that y'all did? I want to give you all the floor because I already told you to follow these two. And if you're not like where else to hang out online.

I would say my number one place is on LinkedIn. You can also check out my website, MichelleFVryn.com. But I'm on LinkedIn often. So if you want to chat more about this, just drop me a message.

And we will link all that up. And Evan, what about you?

LinkedIn is great. The joke I think I made last time on the show is I'm the Evan Wildstein with a beard. There are a couple of us.

Okay, great.

There's another one. And we'll we will have sort of an infographic. Not fully substantial, but a couple page report on these findings. And y'all will have that all in these notes for people to just share and you know, print it out sort of like gently leave it on your boss's desk like don't let him know where it came from. That kind of thing.

socialize it with your board. Like I'm going to drop this link for everybody. It's thenonprofiteers.com/SISR, that is your scissor. It stands for Social Impact Staff Retention, and it's a wealth of information. I can tell you this is only the beginning of this conversation that we're having in this community. It is going to be ongoing, it's going to be growing as the movement continues to grow. Thank you both for your hearts in this you're literally started with the one and it is going to ripple I believe in it. And I believe everybody is worthy of it.

Love you both. Thank you so much.

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