609: What Architecture Schools Don’t Teach—And Why It Matters with Peter Barker of Ryder Architecture | Otter.ai

609: What Architecture Schools Don’t Teach—And Why It Matters with Peter Barker of Ryder Architecture

Enoch Sears56min

Speaker 1

00:00

The pathway to being partners, about leadership of a team, delivering projects, ie delivering design projects. Hello

Rion Willard

00:07

and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and today I'm delighted to welcome Peter Barker, a distinguished figure with over four decades of experience in the built environment and a particular mastery in technical design. As a founding director of BIM Academy, a visionary partnership between rider and Northumbria University, Peter has been at the forefront of driving digital transformation across our industry, from 2010 to 2021 he guided internal consultancy projects, advising clients throughout Europe, South East Asia and Australia. And in recent years, Peter has channeled his expertise into pioneering work based learning initiatives, most notably the award winning plan B apprenticeship scheme, which is now flourishing in London, Manchester, Newcastle and Vancouver. In today's episode, we will be discussing workplace learning, some of these apprenticeships, like Plan B and architectural education. We look at succession planning and leadership within a large practice. We also discuss alternative pathways becoming an architect and their advantages to employers, as well as looking at the innovations around training team members and actually having that as an alternative or additional revenue stream that rider has been incredibly creative with. So sit back, relax and enjoy. Peter Parker, this episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architecture's flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information we are looking for architect developer stories for the Business of Architecture podcast. So are you an architect developer with valuable insights to share? We're always on the lookout for passionate voices in the industry to join us on the Business of Architecture podcast. If you're ready to share your journey, lessons, strategies with our global audience, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us to explore being a guest on our show and help inspire other architect developers on their path. We'd be interested in hearing your story, whether you're at the very beginning of your development story, or whether you have $100 million portfolio of projects already in the bag, completed. We'd like to hear from you if you're working with the developers, or that you've developed a number of small houses, or you're working at a larger scale. Peter, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you? I'm

Speaker 1

02:56

pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. Nice to be here to our discussion. Very good.

Rion Willard

03:01

Good to see you. So you are one of the partners at Rider architecture. You have been there for nearly 30 years. Is that correct?

Unknown Speaker

03:12

That's correct, yes.

Rion Willard

03:16

And you guys at Rider architecture, you have quite an extraordinary portfolio of work you're based up in in Newcastle, and perhaps we'll start by my first question was, what does it mean to be a partner of an architecture studio like rider?

Speaker 1

03:36

Well, first point of slight correction is, our origins are in Newcastle, but we're very much a UK practice and an international practice with strong connections outside the UK as well. But we're very proud of our heritage and origins in the North East of England. The practice has been in existence for over 70 years. It was founded by two modernists, Gordon Ryder and Pierre Yates, who are pupils of Berthold lebetkin, and founded a essentially a multi disciplinary practice in the North East of England back in the 1950s and I joined the practice when the practice, I suppose, was at a bit of a crossroads, that Gordon rider had retired and Peter yet had he died a few years previous to that. And we, we have two new partners take on the business at the time, Mark Thompson and Peter book and and we were, I was, I was working in another practice in the North East of England, where I had a very strong technical design background, and I saw an opportunity to join Peter and mark in the growth of a, I suppose, a revitalized version of rider. And we literally had 14 or 15 people in the practice at the time, and I've worked very closely with with the team here. Ever since to really grow the practice into what it is today, which is we have over 370 people in Newcastle, London, Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol and also Vancouver, and a strong network outside the UK as well. But I think our origins in an approach to essentially an integrated approach to design, which, which, in the early days of rider and Yates practice was involved engineers and architects working collaboratively under one roof on drawing boards in those days. But you know, you know, going back to the you know, the origins of the term architect is really about master builder and somebody who understands the various disciplinary aspects of design, not just the spatial and esthetic side of things. So I think that ethos of being an integrated design practice has really stayed with us,

Rion Willard

06:01

and your your your role. How did you become a partner at the firm? How long did that? How long did that take? Was it something that you had always had in mind, or was it something that happened more organically?

Speaker 1

06:15

I think organically is a good term. My My interests growing up were very much in history and languages and humanities. I did actually ancient languages at school, Latin and Greek and also ancient history. I was always more drawn to to to that side of things. I suppose my father was an architect, and then when I was growing up, he said, do one day, do you want to be an architect? And, well, not really more interested in studying Trojan Wars and things like that, but, but I've so I did a degree in classics and really enjoyed it. There's certain there's a certain thing around about studying ancient languages, and this sort of construction of those ancient languages, and which is sort of in bed to sort of questioning and interrogate retired mindset where you were looking at how things are put together and how things are analyzed and communicated. So I do think some tentative similarities there. But I graduated at a time when the UK was going through a pretty bad economic patch in the very early 1980s it was a three and 3 million unemployed for the first time in since the 1920s and 30s, and I really struggled, struggled to get a career going with a degree in an obscure humanities subject. And I ended up, I ended up, my dad said, Look, you can't, you can't just kick around do nothing. Why don't you come and work in the office part time to do odd jobs, I suppose. And I always ended up working at a very low level, helping with organizing, printing and things like that. And then I got gradually drawn into the design process. And I could have made a decision then, at the age of 23 Shall I embark on again, on a completely new architectural degree and architectural qualification pathway? But to be honest, the prospect of next seven more years study before potential registration was very, very intimidating, and I took what I thought was an easier option, which is to study as an architectural technologist, which is to was to analyze, you know, the technical design aspects of buildings. So I decided to do that. Ironically, I did it. I did it as a part time subject. I learned most of what I learned in the office, very practically out on site, working with people who knew how things were put together. And I enjoyed it very much. And I basically progressed through a technical design career. I did 10 years in a different practice before I came to rider in 1995 so I've come at it from a slightly different route, but it's interesting. Some of the work I'm doing at the moment, looking at architectural rationalization of architectural career pathways, is trying to solve that problem of, how do we make architecture, architecture as a career, more more inclusive and more more diverse and more less expensive, because it's such an intimidating thing to do at the age of 18 or 23 or whatever it is to do seven years of a very linear, quite complicated, slightly fragmented qualification, but, but, so that's how I got into the the and that sort of began my journey working with rider, and it's probably in the last two or three years, because I'm close to close to retirement. The. But I've really focused back again on how we can, how we can improve pathways into built environment, careers, not only architecture, but others.

Rion Willard

10:10

Was it, yeah? Was it a a struggle? Or did you have or did you have advantages having come at architecture from the route that you did.

Speaker 1

10:24

I don't think I had it any easier than anybody else. To be honest, I consciously didn't want to go down and sort of nepotistic root of, oh, my dad's got me a job in architects office. It was very much start right, literally at the beginning, in the print room, folding prints, paper prints, sure. And I basically started again. And the guys I went to the, I went to Newcastle Polytechnic, which is now Northumbria University. And in those days, you know, polytechnics disappears, essentially in the in the UK. But I was working alongside 1617, year olds who were who, you know, were bright people, but they were three or four or five years younger than me. I suppose what I did have was a the I think the training I got through studying a languages degree in a humanities theory allowed me to start think very analytically about how things are put together and how things are structured, and a sort of problems or problem solving mindset. And I've always had an interest in the history of things and buildings and objects and human it

Rion Willard

11:30

sounds it sounds like quite a perfect education, in a way like that, having the interest in in in the history of of things and the growth of people, and how people are interacting as civilizations, as quite that's kind of a big component of architectural study. And actually, then actually coming from it, from a very practical in the workplace perspective, like, again, this is a good way to learn the learn the ropes, and also, you know, from, certainly, from from today's perspective, when we look at architectural education, I know we can talk about this in a little bit. You know, there's a lot of criticisms about the over emphasis on just the more theoretical design aspects of architecture, which which then negates either the construction science and certainly the economic realities of how architecture is practiced, or just the fact that architecture is practiced in the context of of business, like you have to win a work, you have to win projects, you have to to work with clients, etc.

Speaker 1

12:39

Yeah, I think, I think architecture has unfortunately managed to sort of narrow its scope down to what is in a lot of people's minds, and some, I'm not going to name any names, but, you know, there's some probably architecture schools who feel that architecture is all about spatial organization and esthetics, rather than design being something that actually grapples with really understanding the science of materials and component sorry, construction techniques and construction methods of building, as well as the societal side of things, the economic side of things, the business side of things, the ethics side of things, you know, all of those things are ultimately about design. And being a designer or an architect is actually synthesizing all that into a solution, you know, and in way architecture is, it thrives when it's based on, you know, responding creativity to constraints and seeing opportunities in those constraints as much as having, you know, the last thing you want is a complete greenfield site with a blank piece of paper and say, I want to it's got to respond to something. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what makes it fascinating, very exciting.

Rion Willard

14:01

So, when you first joined rider in in the mid 90s, you were describing there what was your pathway to becoming a partner, and how would you describe the role of a partner in a firm, in an international firm like rider,

Speaker 1

14:22

I think, first of all, talk about my, suppose, my pathway, which was essentially coming and doing, doing what I was, I suppose, recruited to do, which is, was really have a strong technical design knowledge, with a focus on, I suppose it's the entire design process, but the tendency to focus on sort of schematic design onwards into technical design and construction and operation, but very much seeing it as part of a of a whole in the design is a virtuous circle of starting with. Strategic briefing and phase which takes the occupational phase and feeds that back into the next project. But my focus was very much on improving how we can take some of the conception of design or client briefs and turning that into a buildable solution. But in doing that, one thing I really valued about the practice at the time and since is that we we haven't discriminated against. You know, some people have strengths in different parts of the of the workflow, if you like. And but what I'd like to think everyone has, hopefully within riders is a really good understanding of the entire workflow, even though they may have a particular enthusiasm or a skill in a particular part of that workflow. So so my background was, was mainly that stage of the project life cycle, I suppose to start with, but in my journey to that point, I'd also done a lot of work on sort of creation of, I suppose, management systems and procedural stuff to try and make people's life easier in terms of how getting consistency and quality in terms of how we deliver projects also often known as sort of quality management systems, which has got a bit of a bad press, but at the end of the day, those types of systems of its own right can allow architects to design buildings consistently and in better quality in a much more considered and structured way. So I had a strong grounding in that. And it was also around the time that the UK Government brought in a whole set of new legislation around building safety, called the construction time build construction Design Management Regulation, CDM, which we're trying to create a greater awareness amongst designers, not just awareness or almost coercion of designers to be more responsible at the safety of the buildings they design. And ironically, that's again come full circle with the with the the aftermath of the Grenfell fire and the Grenfell inquiry. So I had a sort of strong involvement in the early phases of that so that those sort of, I suppose, skills together was where I sort of got my entry point into the practice, and really enjoyed building that capability within the practice, but obviously working alongside my colleagues who have those strengths in those different parts of the phases and I think I've had a strong sort of desire to communicate lead, trying to get everyone working off the same page in terms of how we deliver projects. So that led to a sort of team leadership role we were also doing. We've always tried to diversify the sector specialisms we have within rider. So when we don't necessarily put all our eggs in one basket in terms of a client portfolio, because obviously economic, economic variables out there mean that, you know, one sector may suddenly be the be impacted by economic changes. So we've always been pretty diverse, but we did have a lot of public sector work in the mid 2000s involving all those hospitals and schools, healthcare and schools projects. So we were doing multiple public sector schools projects where and I was involved in leading the delivery side of a lot of those projects which then harness a lot of that, that was organizational skill and technical design expertise. But then around, around this time, we saw an opportunity to really drive further productivity by the adoption of digital tools. Right? And rider had been one of the early adopters of CAD software in the 18, sorry, 19 eight, and myself and Mark Thompson, who's a managing partner rider, were very, very keen to adopt an emerging platform, Revit and obviously BIM, which was an emerging term at the time, and we worked closely with an American practice called HKS at the time, and with them, we saw an opportunity to really drive quality and productivity by the by the structured adoption of BIM software. So around 2008 nine, we really invested a lot of time in retraining people in that platform or those platforms, and we did a number of research projects to really get ahead of the game and understanding the possibilities of BIM. And then that subsequently, by happy coincidence, the UK government got behind it around 2010 because again, we were into another economic downturn. Of the government that came in in the UK at the time, so I think it saw him as one of the silver bullets to try and solve the productivity challenges in the obviously, it's not. You can't just have one silver bullet. So that hasn't necessarily had a particularly the impact it maybe could have had, although it has, progress has been made. So, yeah, so I gradually build up a range of expertise across a number of things which ultimately have the heart a drive towards quality, productivity, efficiency, and ultimately, you know, driving profitability for the practice. But that isn't just practice wanting to make lots of money, because you can't be a successful practice unless you have a profit to to back up so you can reinvest in your people and your systems and you and exploring new, new sectors and opportunities. So that's really been that was sort of my route to to being a partner. Part of that journey, also for about 10 years, led to a spin out business that we created with Northumbria University called BIM Academy, which really built on that expertise we accrued through practical use of BIM software. And so we actually created a successful consultancy business called BIM Academy, with with Northumbria, which, which I ran for 10 years, and is now again thriving. We've done there's projects International, projects around the world. The company's rebranded recently, the Oana, which is again diversified into other fields such as building, safety and sustainability, modern construction. And I handed that initiative over to colleague Graham Kelly two or three years ago, and I've now, I've now been focusing, as I mentioned earlier on, looking at how we can reshape educational pathways in the built environment, which is where

Rion Willard

22:07

I'm Wow. So So rider owns essentially a another business, which is a purely educational business, originally starting off in in BIM and CADS training, yeah. And then now has sort of expanded into into other parts of the of the building trade or the architectural

Speaker 1

22:26

we have close links with Northumbria University, because obviously, what are they're based in Newcastle. They have campuses internationally as well. But so you know that is our home turf, as it were, so because of the close relationships with some of their academics who who were specializing in this area and our practical use of the tools. Around 2008 2010 we saw an opportunity to create something which was, I suppose it's a blend of training, educational and consultancy expertise, because we could see there was an opportunity here to to, you know, there's no point in using a BIM platform in isolation. It just doesn't make sense. It's about collaboration and integration. So unless the rest of the industry rises with with with the same capability, you know, we're not going to go anywhere. So I suppose we regard it as a business opportunity as well, which it ultimately was. But, yeah, it was essentially boom Academy. Was a blend of a training, a consultancy and a thought leadership organization which specialized in so as BIM and citrus for most of its life, but probably from around 2020, onwards, we've looked at bringing other expertise into that, and ultimately that's led to the creation of a completely rebranded business, which which does more than just the PIM site, which is why we've rebranded it as O'Connor, but that's essentially we, we had a great relationship with Northumbria University, and still do. They decided to focus more on academic procedures, so we've rider now essentially own arcana and operate that as a parallel business, which is very complements our core architectural expertise as well. So

Rion Willard

24:11

do you have all of your own team members trained through certain parts of Arcana, or you have very good training internal training systems available?

Speaker 1

24:20

Yeah, we did that. That's an internally a very close relationship, and also it allows us to access that expertise quite readily. So that's that's been a really beneficial aspect of that, of that relationship as well. And

Rion Willard

24:36

I think both these things that you've kind of illustrated, the Arcana and your own career trajectory of kind of coming out architecture from very much within the workplace, opens up the conversation about apprenticeship, education and what rider has been doing to be one of the kind of forerunners and really be pioneers. In, in that in that area of the the the training of the next generation of architects, perhaps you could speak a little bit

Speaker 1

25:08

about that, yeah, you know, I must start by saying, you know, there's many schools of architecture in the UK who deliver, you know, excellent an excellent program, excellent programs with excellent results and candidates graduating from those programs. But I think the ARB, the architects Registration Board, recognized recently, in those two years that there needs to be a radical shift in how architectural education is delivered, because it's essentially too long, too expensive, too complicated, and there's an awful lot of consist inconsistency in how it's delivered. Now, it's not saying every every school of architecture should be exactly the same, but there's recognized problems with it, and it's because it's expensive and it's long, it's become slightly exclusive, or a leader, Stephen, if I can use that word, and it prevents those from necessarily under under representative, under privileged backgrounds, from it, from entering it as a profession. So that's one consideration. But from my own experience of I learned so much in the period from probably when I was 23 when I started down this route to when I was completed. But Newcastle poly was sorry, 1987 888, almost everything I learned was in the workplace, on site, working alongside experienced colleagues. I probably the greatest insight I got from purely from academic side, was learning about learning about contracts and appointments and contract law and risk management. I suppose that was that was really well delivered in an academic context. But everything else about design and implementation regulation was learned from the workplace. So having a program which blends practical experience with with academic learning, it's really got to be the way forward in my, you know, in my estimation, the other thing is that we, probably around 2013 we this conversation about, you know, within the UK, about architectural education being at a crossroads, or at a point where it needs to be rethought has been going on now for many years, but around 2013 it was our, I think, was our 60th anniversary as a practice at the time, because the practice was found in 1953 we started talking to some of our built environment consultancy peers in the North East. And I'm talking about businesses like Arabs, Sir Robert, McAlpine, Turner, Townsend, Faulkner, browns, not small organizations. But you know, have a have a UK international reach as well. And I think we all felt that we all wanted something more from architect for suffering, build environment education. So we decided to collaborate, collaborate and design our own program, which was a blend of practical experience and academic learning, but very much based on, you know, learning in the workplace and designing something that would allow candidates to not have to take out student loans, and could learn and earn at the same time. So we developed a program which is now known as Plan B, which the reason is called Plan B. It stands for plan for built environment education. That's the acronym. So we launched this officially back in 2016 we managed to get it off the ground. Our original aspiration was that it would lead into a degree program. We did speak to a number of universities at the time, and for whatever reason, it was difficult for them to align their funding or their structures to respond to that at the time. So it's currently run as a pre degree level program, which is for those familiar with UK educational structures, it's level four, level five. But basically what it involves is, is an apprentice joining the program, normally from from a levels in the UK, or T levels, which is level three high school, and then being employed centrally by an apprenticeship agency, which then will place the candidate or the student in a six different work placements over two years. So they'll do four. Months working in a variety of businesses. It could be an architectural practice, an engineering consultancy, a contractor's office or a site the Quantity Surveyor, cost management business, project management business could be a building services, mechanic and electrical engineering business. So it's a variety of experiences over four months. Each paid a salary, and they will study one day a week in a college academic environment. And they will gain a huge amount of experience during that time. They will not end up with any debt as a result of the program. And once they graduate, they can then normally progress into an advanced entry into a career in architecture engineering, construction management, cost management, and we've had over a well of 105 I think, 100 under five graduates from the program since we launched officially in 2016 and the program now operates in Newcastle, Manchester and London, and we're very proud of that. And as all the other family sponsors, the likes of Ericsson, we've now got over 60 businesses in the UK supporting that program. And basically, the sponsor business will will pay the salary of an apprentice, and they will host an apprentice during that two year period in rotation. In brief, that's how the program works, and we're very keen to spread the word about that program. We, through our Vancouver office, we've managed to establish an affiliated program with British Columbia Institute of Technology in Vancouver. It's not quite the same structure, but it follows the similar principles, and that's now in its second year in Vancouver. So we think the model of the template works, works. Well,

Rion Willard

31:49

that's extraordinary, yeah, how? How, once people have kind of gone through that process, what's the pathway to registration as a as a professional.

Speaker 1

32:02

It varies depending on the subject area that they're interested in pursuing, and ironically, architecture is probably the more challenging in terms of the number of hoops they have to jump through. If I could maybe start with civil engineering or, say, construction management, it's normally possible for a Plan B graduate to drop into the second, sorry, the third or fourth year right of a degree in those subjects. And then we'll normally they will progress into a master's and ultimately gain chartership of the child Institute of Building Services engineers, or Institute, Institution of Civil Engineers for architecture, those who've done Plan B and want to do architecture, normally, can drop into the second year of a degree, which is the sort of traditional part one. So they will, they will jump ahead slightly. Then need to do two years of a part one, and then do a part two. And then they'll need to do the professional practice before they can register as an architect, but they gain a huge amount of practical knowledge and a broader perspective on the built environment as a whole than those who just done a straightforward

Rion Willard

33:17

Yeah. I mean, that's not the texture I would imagine that being an amazing experience, it's just being able to actually be inside the offices of other sorts of consultants that you might be working with, and just the practical element of it. Do you see students wanting to continue that practical part of their education when they kind of go off into the second or third years of their university degrees.

Speaker 1

33:44

Yes, in ways frustrating that it's very difficult for if a Plan B graduate wanted to do architecture, then normally, the only option they have is to do a full time two years of a full time part one. There is a level six degree apprenticeship in architectural assistant in the UK, but only two universities deliver that, and that would provide a degree of continuing practical experience. But it's very it's a very rare sort of offering. And so, yeah, I do think there's a there's an opportunity to continue and again, the ARB reforms, known as the tomorrow's architects reforms, which were published last year, do encourage learning providers to try and design new programs which have practice practical outcomes throughout the duration of the program, rather than just being seen that COVID on at the end. I mean just on in terms of work based learning the other set. Separate from Plan B, but related, I suppose rider will one of the early adopters of the degree apprenticeships that were introduced around 2018 in the UK, and we've been heavily supportive of the level seven degree apprenticeship in architecture, which is essentially the masters or part two equivalent. And I think we've now had 18 we've supported 18 candidates on them on the level seven degree apprenticeship, and that's probably across five or six schools of architecture in the UK, again, those who've done that have found it incredibly rewarding. Obviously, they there's there's the advantage that they are being paid a salary while they are studying, but they are studying whilst learning either three days, two days. In some cases, some schools operate a system where it's a block block release, so they will go away and do an intensive program for two weeks, but then go back to almost full time work and print practice between times. So each each program is slightly different, but we found that and those who have been on the program within rider funded, pretty beneficial, really,

Rion Willard

36:23

what as an employer, what are some of the advantages that you see in students when they kind of their, when they kind of finish their university education, with those students who have had Workplace Learning, or a very kind of large component of it as workplace learning or or even them who have been through a kind of apprenticeship scheme. What are some of the advantages you think those students have, you know, in their careers, moving forward, and what, what things is it very advantageous for you as employers to see students having,

Speaker 1

36:56

I think it's not a few things. I mean, there's the, I suppose, it opposed a maturity and in understanding that how multi disciplinary or cross disciplinary team working actually works in reality on projects. That sounds a bit around the house, but yeah, just the realities of how you work with other consultants and other members of the project team and the client and our stakeholders in the communities we serve, how we worked as a team, you know, they will have gained some of that knowledge, not all through, all of it through working in the in practice, while also studying whereas, you know, I would, I would suspect in a number of purely academic architectural programs, there's not A lot of exposure to that, and probably, you know, not a lot of exposure to working with other disciplines, such as structural engineers and building services engineers and liaison with regulators, local authorities, planning departments. And that I'm not criticizing. You know, those more academically focused academic programs, but some of them do have interventions with practice, whereas an apprenticeship or a program like Plan B does really actively compel the candidate to work alongside others in a real project environment. The other advantage is a very, very practical level understanding how to use some of the tools that we use, everything from Revit through to collaborate, digital collaboration, tools like nervous work, source libri, using, you know, things like Miro to collaborate on in design exchanges. And then you know, the simple practical things about maintaining records of decisions that are made and things that some people think are boring but actually incredibly important to make sure project runs smoothly and keeps you out of court if things go wrong. So those everything from the you know, the tools, the practical day to day stuff about managing and operating a project, through to the human side of interacting with your colleagues and peers on a real project and sort of seeing what works and what doesn't work in in reality. Yeah, so those are the skills that we see being acquired from an apprentice, apprenticeship model,

Rion Willard

39:28

excellent. What about the kind of understanding of, perhaps the business in commercial context? Because this is something obviously, you know, we speak about here on the podcast, a lot is the negation of the business context, or the commercial reality that often happens in architecture school, which I feel I wouldn't necessarily want to see business education at school, but just the lack of acknowledgement that that's like there is an economic context that exists. For architecture. It means that then people, people unintentionally become very uninterested in it. And this has a lot of problems, certainly when we see people set up their own smaller practices, and there's an aversion to anything to do with finance and money and the negotiations, yeah, how do you see that kind of being addressed in apprenticeships? And the advantages of apprenticeship model? I

Speaker 1

40:27

think the sort of sharp end of that you know, the apprenticeship apprentice, will gain an insight into that at a project level by if we manage it correctly and give them the right opportunities to be exposed to this by understanding the financial aspects of a project, the fact that, even to the point of, you know, being invited into a fee, the fee review meeting, where we now understand the basis of our fee, you know, how that's been derived, how it's been planned. You know, we will, we will plan if fee isn't just based on a percentage. It's obviously a percentage as a percentage of the construction value as a consideration, but you should always really on the stress test that fee to make sure that it's achievable with a resource that you need to do the job and plan that through and taking an apprentice through that. Now this is how we arrived at the fee. This is how fees broken time per work stage. We've assumed, with these things will happen in these work stages, therefore, and we need to, you know the importance of filling in your timesheet, because otherwise, how do you track how profitable you're being and whether you're making a return on that stage of the project or not? Because ultimately, these little things, all these things, impact on us as a practice, because, you know, developing a profit margin which we can reinvest in our people and doing things better in this in the future. So I think they will learn at a project level. But we as a we as a practice, and I know some of the practices do this as well. We also involve invest in internal training and awareness on how the business works as a business, and we'll run internal seminars on a almost an annual or biannual cycle for everyone. So this is how the business works. We will have clients coming in to say how they decision, the financial aspects of their decision making, what informs them, you know, making a strategic decision to build a project in the first place. Commissioner building in the first place. So we've invested in a lot of internal awareness raising training, if you want to call it that, to to broaden that perspective and not just see it as a this project's making profit, and this one's not, you know, it's about the broader picture, and even the economic side of things like, you know, what are the changes? What's the fallout from a budget, UK budget? Have on, have on us as a, not just us as a business, as a sector, in the built environment, but that's, and I know many of the practice invest in that. But what, what, what I think is encouraging from the reforms that the ALB have announced, and have not, not just announced, actually imposed. Them are, you know, a set of competencies for architects, which, which, clearly, I've got them written down in front of me here, actually, as a reminder. But what you know that there's, there's a group of competencies around management, practice and leadership. You know, those things are many of those things already exist in architectural programs, but, you know, there's a set of competencies around that, and really they're looking for learning providers to really reconfigure their programs and make sure that those competencies are clearly addressed, whether it's through academic training or practical training, is sort of up to them, to a degree. But you know, the stuff in there also about professionalism and ethics, using processes of Research and Evaluation in the design process, as well as design as a topic itself. So and then, you know, just to be complete about it, there was a contact, contextual and architectural knowledge as well. So it's refreshing to see there's a, almost a reboot, reboot of architectural education, which reminds providers that, you know, the management practice side and the leadership side of things is is really important as well. And I think a lot of that skill can be, can be acquired through an approaching model.

Rion Willard

44:24

I think it's amazing that you guys have, like, an internal kind of set of of education, like an education program, if you like, where you're revealing parts of the business side of the of the of the practice to the rest of the team, and even in even inviting clients in on those kind of conversations, that's, that's pretty innovative.

Speaker 1

44:48

Yeah, we've, I mean, we've, we've developed a couple of other programs as well which and we've done them because we think it makes good business sense to make sure that everyone is. To operate at the best of their capabilities, you know, and and it's, you could argue, it's one of them, which I'll come on to a second, is really attempting to fill the gaps from the from the educational programs that those who have joined us. Have joined from we've developed a program called technical Design Essentials, which is 25 short modules on everything from how to plan your design deliverables through to how to waterproof a basement substructure, through to the basics around fire strategy, or, you know, drywall and petitioning systems, you know, everything you could possibly think of in terms of the planning and delivery design information through how buildings are put together. And that's been we've done that because we found that some people have joined us, whilst they're talented, people have got major gaps in their basic understanding, you know, and so we've, we've created that with think Group of 25 senior, reasonably experienced architects and technologists within the practice, working together to create program, which we've then rolled out in our own time and our own cost. And I think we've probably 120 people have been on that program now within the practice, and we've found it the money well spent, because those people now have managed to fill those gaps. But you could argue that maybe those gaps shouldn't have been there in the first place, but we didn't mind doing it, and it's been good fun doing it, and we enjoy doing it as well.

Rion Willard

46:41

Do you find that in terms of like performance reviews or kind of career progression, people find that this kind of internal education really valuable, and are keen to kind of stick around because they feel like they're being invested in as a team?

Speaker 1

47:00

I think I wouldn't want to make a sweet generalization, but I do, yes, I do think that that is well, well regarded, regarded and appreciated by a lot of our people, that there is an investment in supporting them and their careers. You know, some may well design, decide to move on, and sometimes they come back and rejoin us, which is great, but it's, I don't think it's appreciated, and it just makes, it makes good business sense, and it, you know, it's, it's nice to have a group of people working together who feel mutually supportive, yeah,

Rion Willard

47:38

in terms of the leadership of rider, and say, for example, we started this conversation talking about your own journey to becoming a partner. And obviously being a partner in a firm is quite a unique position. It's not for everybody, but there are certainly maybe kind of core competencies of the partner of a business that you would expect to have which are different from a kind of practicing architect, or somebody who was in a project architect, a solely project architect role. Could you talk a little bit about what do you think are some of those competencies that a partner of an architecture firm needs to have, and do you have when you're kind of doing succession planning. Do you have a similar sort of education for people becoming partnership partners in the firm? I

Speaker 1

48:27

mean, for many years, we were none of this was sort of written down, I suppose. But as we've grown, we've we've actually tried to describe what we feel are appropriate behaviors for for for people as they develop in the practice. And I'd like to think there's a common thread, flows from everybody, as well as a system level, right through the partner. I think a lot of it is about, it sounds like a cliche, but it's about a culture and a feeling of, I suppose, team working and collaboration between the members of the practice as a as a whole, and as I was, a partners role is almost where those where those behaviors are probably should be up there. Absolute clinical is the wrong word. But where you know you represent those, those those behaviors, it's about showing support and leadership, leading by example, taking being accountable, being ultimately responsible for being accepting and acknowledging that you know the Bucha with you, and taking responsibility for maybe the failures of others, but the shortcomings of others as well, and doing the right thing. I suppose now we'd expect those behaviors to be exhibited, I suppose, by everyone, but at different degrees. There's values around enthusiasm and passion for. Our work, there's a there's values we have as a practice around being forward thinking and pioneering as well. And then I suppose the other value around you know, mutual support and empowerment well. Mutual support and empower slightly different things, but allowing everybody think that they are empowered to do what is right for the practice and what is right for them in developing their career pathways. And I suppose I find that financial awareness as well and but not just looking at the bottom line and maximizing profit at the expense of everything else. It's about a balance. So I suppose the qualities are, I suppose those, those qualities exemplified in a particular level. Do

Rion Willard

50:50

you have expectations with different abilities? Say, for example, in the ability and being able to win work? Is that become a responsibility?

Speaker 1

51:01

Yeah, absolutely. Interestingly, we did have a career pathway for many years, which it largely still applies, which is the pathway to being partners, about leadership of a team, delivering projects, ie delivering design projects. And that involves winning work we don't have we do have resource involved in business development, obviously, people involved in that specializing in that role. But a lot of work winning is done through personal relationships of of team leaders and partners in terms of but we encourage others within teams who are maybe at a more junior level to be involved at the earliest stage. And this comes about the empowerment thing of feeling not feeling constrained. And if they want to explore opportunities in in I suppose, winning work and creating opportunities to do that, as long as it's within the context of our overall goals as a business. And so yes, there is a need to bring work in. There's a need to demonstrate leadership, to demonstrate that, you know, the profit that we said we were going to secure on a project is achieved. And if not, there's a reason why not. But recently we've, we've had a discussion around other pathways into that level of of, I suppose senior already through through expertise and specialisms, other than necessarily being leading architectural projects in it, in a team environment. But I do, I do think that exhibiting a team, a team, working in a team, leadership ethos is important. And also, as the practice has grown, we are, we are looking at other ways of, essentially, democratizing the sense of, you know, of ownership within the practice. And you know, we do have, we have a performance based profit share scheme for which, which the majority of everyone who's passing the probation period is is eligible for as well. So, brilliant, excellent.

Rion Willard

53:14

I think that's a perfect place to conclude the conversation. They're very inspiring insights and and incredibly innovative. What rider has doing, I wonder, certainly, from my perspective, talking to a lot of architects, that just hearing the kind of innovations that you guys have had with training and even that there's an education company is is very inspiring and quite quite unique, actually. So thank you very much, Peter for for sharing that expertise and those insights.

Speaker 1

53:51

Okay, thanks. Thanks, Ryan, and that's a wrap.

Enoch Sears

53:54

Hey. Enoch Sears here, and I have a request, since you are a listener here of the Business of Architecture podcast, Ryan and I, we love putting this podcast together. We love sharing information as much as we can glean from all the other industries that we're a part of. To bring it back to empower you as an architect and a designer. One thing that helps us in our mission is the growth of this podcast, simply because it helps other architects stand for more their value spreads the business information that we're sharing to empower architects together, so architects, designers, engineers, can really step into their greatness, whatever that looks like for each individual. And so here my simple ask is for you to join us and be part of our community by doing the following, heading over to iTunes and leaving a review of the podcast. And as an expression of our sincere thanks, we would like to give you a free CEU course that can get you one professional development unit. But more importantly, we'll give you a very solid and firm foundation on your. Journey to becoming a profitable and thriving architect. So here's the process for that. After you leave us review, send an email to support at Business of architecture.com let us know the username that you use to leave the review, and we will send you that free training. On the training you'll discover what 99% of architecture firm owners wished they would have known 20 years ago.

Rion Willard

55:28

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