You're down to numbers. And the end of the day you need to have a business structure, you need to have a business plan, you need to move your step in a way that they're not random at the beginning. They are because you need to find your path.
Hello, and welcome to the Business of Architecture UK. I'm your host, Ryan Willard. And today I have the great pleasure of speaking with Venmar, who are an award winning multidisciplinary DESIGN LEAD practice, they've got an extraordinary portfolio of work which spans across multiple sectors from retail to high end residential. And it's all guided by a very clear design philosophy which becomes very present in the sophisticated realisation of their beautiful projects. It was very interesting to speak with the two directors Jan Lucan and Jeanne and Elena Mariska who got in contact with us here at Business of Architecture, because they're very keen to share their story of starting a practice, I think they started back in 2019. And in this conversation, we really go into a lot of depth for some of the challenges and the successes, how they overcame them, and what it's actually like to start a practice in today's climate. And I think it's, you know, there's a unique set of challenges in this particular era of starting an architecture practice, which they cover, they talk a lot about being a married couple, and what that's like, and I think that comes with its own unique set of challenges and opportunities. And I really want this conversation to serve as a reminder to lots of other young practices that are in emerging practices, that you're not alone. And often, when we talk about business, particularly when architects are talking about their business to other architects, it's not always as a transparent conversation as it could be. And we always only ever see the kind of shiny looking finished products on Instagram or on websites, which is all beautiful and wonderful. But it negates the real stories and the challenges of, you know, how do you make projects profitable? How do you go about winning work? How do you mark to market your practice? How do you deal with a client who's changing their mind all the time? And we keep on finding ourselves saying yes, how do you deal with overwhelming stress? How do you still manage to have a work life balance whilst running an architecture practice that comes all consuming? How do we get around this tension, or this apparent tension between the business side and the creative side of our businesses? So this is a really interesting conversation. Jen, Luca and Melinda were very transparent, very open and kind of gave a lot of insight into what they've done and the things that they're still facing. And I hope it serves as a really fantastic conversation that we can continue here Business of Architecture. So sit back, relax and enjoy. Jan Lucan and Jeanne and Elena Mariska of Nemo. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the inflammation Gianluca Atlanta. Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm very well thank you and your own.
I'm very good. Thank you. Good. Thanks. Fantastic. We're
having us with a
absolute pleasure. Very excited to be speaking with you guys. emerging practice in the UK doing some absolutely incredible work beautiful portfolio of residential projects. You're under the name Neymar then ma, no. I was getting the football in my head there for a moment. And I think that you know, we were just talking before I hit record here about you know, being a young practice and you guys set up Jen Look, you're saying 2019?
So I set up my so I used to work before our practice here in London, really good practice. Busy in Notting Hill and I decide to go solo in 2018 and open my own practice. And then in 2020, we start up our our joint venture between Murray skin tears that was part of Delena skin tears was Elena's and Elena sister practice where they were focusing on interior design and are dealing so because in terms of their heritage, their hospital and how Brazilian so they used to do a lot of like a Brazilian are dealing as Italian one. And we found ourself in the middle of two projects to be project one is the new building Trancoso and and the other one is the penthouse in children in Switzerland. And we really enjoy to work with, I mean, together. And that's, I mean, usually architects really hate interior designer, but I think I think it's really important to. So our message is really to deliver a product or service from conception to completion for the end user, that that's really our, our aim and our goal.
Amazing. And so and so you guys, generally you started 2019. And then Elena, you came in a little bit later.
Yeah. So basically, what happened was that we had our own company, and then we, we merged, we merged, the, my studio was mostly arteriors. And then juluca has its own studio called the GN architecture. So we merged the two company in one to give like the 360 service to the client, because we these two project, we understood that it's also better to engage these kind of two professional figure that you work together since the beginning to the end of the project. Of course, we started not in the really beautiful period, 2020, but we manage after COVID, Brexit and everything else that happened to deliver some good project, and we are happy that our practice is going in, we think the right direction, we for our kind of style and goal.
I think it's actually, you know, starting a practice during a global pandemic, or during a recession, these, these are pretty difficult situations within which to actually, you know, start a business however, however, on the other side of it, there is a kind of silver lining, if you like, in the sense that if you can survive. Me You're exactly, exactly. And it's and it's, and really we talk about it in business a lot, this idea of adversity, and how important it is because you got to develop a thick skin somehow, because running a business isn't for everybody, it's not for the faint hearted, it demands a lot of a lot from you, you're taking on enormous amount of risk, you're the one accountable for everything, you're the one being held responsible, you're the one that if you don't get the work done and completed, then you don't get paid, you don't pay your rent. You know, if you're when you start taking on team members, now you're responsible for paying their mortgages, we don't you know, people forget this is the, this is the large responsibility that kind of gets placed on a practice owner. And it can, and it can take its toll if you like, and it's not for the faint hearted. So there needs to be this kind of resilience that's built up. And sometimes we just don't have it, we don't have that kind of resilience. Sometimes people have had, whatever adversities they've dealt with. And they've got that kind of emotional fortitude. But I do think like setting up a practice, in a difficult situation, if you can survive those first few years, we've seen it in 2008, so many really strong practices that, you know, we speak and look at and admire. Now, they all kind of forged, if you like, in the fires of the recession of 2008. And so many of the business lessons were learned in that period. So what were some of the kind of challenges for you guys?
In the funny thing, I mean, because I mean, when you start with that kind of situation, you really start from scratch. So whatever is happening, I mean, it's worst, I mean, but I mean account worse than that, that's the main point. Like a keyboard is, I mean, meaning in terms of business way. I mean, when you start from the very beginning, I mean, within the pandemic, and then you got of course, like a Brexit and of course you are, you're Italian so you are in, in, in, I mean you are in, in a kind of region and a land where you don't know anybody. And so you need to actually make you need to make your space your own space and then start with connection so to actually gain trust because I mean trust and resilience, I mean, those those kinds of keywords are really really important when you start up from from the very beginning. So yeah, so I think there was I mean, the first btw was to actually put in place and our way so that was our main goal at the very beginning. So understanding how do you want to be seen from from the outset, so start from the foundation and then to build up the company that was our main main goal. So and I think I mean, the pandemic helped us a lot because we could focus on that and, and then in terms of like our website and brand strategy, and We work with a really, really good company, studios small that they're, they're amazing. They're really amazing we went to them and they really help us through to actually gain what we want to, to convey to people. So that I mean, yeah, it was hard, hard time. But at the same time, we I mean, it was helpful, Virtus karma, right, because I mean, sometimes when you are inactive,
because for in that period, for instance, for us, our clients, the first client that we got, it was friends of friends like that you go to dinner, you introduce yourself, and then you end up meeting with new people and that guy needs to do the job. And we'd pandemic zero that was happening. So from a certain point that you open your practice, and you think that it's gonna be hard, of course, but you think that the 80% of your time, you're just gonna do whatever you your job, like, be an architect, be an interior designer, with the coat pandemic situation we in like, one month, we had to be lawyers, economics, social media manager, PR and event. No, something that we didn't have any clue how to do it also like this Instagram, not Instagram, social media, no social media, that we start every day is a school day for us in that period, because we said, Okay, now, as you said, before, we do money at the end of the day is going to survive with hair. So how can we find the new clients where when you can go out, because we our name, we we hope that in 10 years time, our name is going to be super well known that people they're going to just call us because of our style? And our, our service or why our Why yes, but today, we are not saying no one because John Ward, but we are a little practice in a notion of practice, they're doing similar thing that that we are doing. And now that we also this also kind of social media kind of situation that we've got at the moment, the competition is even higher than before. Because when you when you were talking about 2008, they didn't have all these issues you've got today, because before the competition was local, you, you were like competing with, if you were from London, with the practice of London, we are competing with the practice of Kuala Lumpur, Ghana, Mexico, Italy, Milan, because people are, are bombarded of images all the time, they can choose from everywhere in the world. So this is what
I mean, it got worse, I mean, in terms of publication, etc. So it gets harder and harder. I mean, obviously, you are choosing to publish that kind of project. So everything, of course, is much more simpler from from the eyes of, for example, my parents, so for that kind of degeneration. But I mean, really, I don't know. I don't know.
It's more challenging.
It's interesting. It's interesting as there is certainly greater fiercer competition and talent, and technology has lowered the bar in terms of, of who can be educated. So education, you know, on all areas in all sorts of arenas of business, for example, and architecture, you know, you can you can watch Harvard lectures, for example, online, these days, or there's untold amount of business education and resources that are now available with the click of a few, a few buttons. And the cost, if you like, of actually starting a practice is lower than it's ever been before. And you know, you've got access to outsourcing. Work to, you know, to take advantage of like a team who's working in India, for example. And I find this quite interesting when we're seeing, you know, lots of young practices being very creative and how that they're, they're kind of assembling different parts of their of their business and using and utilizing technology, and also coming up, you know, a fresh with a fresh pair of eyes of how to package and market architectural services. And you know, and also the kind of crossover collaboration like what you guys are doing with interiors and architecture in the same under the same roof, if you like. This becomes quite interesting. And of course, there's a there's a wider pool of competition as well that accompanies that. So I guess the Question is like, what was some of the innovations that you started to look at to help differentiate yourself from other practices?
So in terms of like, social media, we found ourselves that we are, I mean, we are, it's quite tough in terms of social media, as we were saying, because I mean, it's difficult. I mean, even the algorithm of Instagram, it doesn't really work nowadays. So in terms of like, I mean, it doesn't mean if you don't get likes, you know, I mean, we used to have this kind of thing in mind, you need to get likes in order to actually get higher up in the rankings, and then to be to be seen, but it's not that easy anymore. So in terms of uniqueness, so in our, our, we approach in terms of in terms of marketing, we spend a lot of our sources. So I would say the good 50% of resources, we invest in marketing, but marketing can be, it can vary a lot. For example, we had few projects that didn't go through, but we really, really happy about that kind of proposal. So we decided to go and do CGI is so then we have our collaborators that we are working together in order to actually get the right CG eyes, and then to convey to people what could be, you know what I mean, and then, for example, approach to somebody else, that could be on the same kind of branch of let's say, if he's a retail, and say, I mean, that's, that's our project and do like some some of design features. So that kind of line of Mark. So we invest a lot on that. And, and it's working, it's working, because at the end of the day, even if you didn't build the project is really the idea. And, and how you how you solve a problem to somebody and how you actually create are crazy stories from their brief and, and the constraints of the of the space itself. That is very interesting.
Great. So how the first kind of clients that you've kind of started to work with, how did they come into the office? And how are you finding work now.
So we've been really lucky at the beginning. So we, I mean, because of luck, in our practice, in our, in our field, in our industries is really, really important. Because I mean, you need to get dressed, you need to, I mean, in order to actually get dressed and be known of what you actually have, what's your why you need to have somebody that gives you a really big amount of trust. And at the very beginning, we had like a friends of friends for the house, for the new build house. And then friends and family. I mean, at the end, at the end of the day, that was the our our plan tail. And so we have those two big projects, and then from then we actually generate a really good two outcome, where actually we get a lot of press, we had a lot of press on chilena. And we had the really good press on on on the new build house. So and So we invested a lot with with a PR agency in order to actually get out there. And that was really it at the very beginning. Yeah, because
Sorry, sorry to interrupt. At the beginning, we make the decision that everything not everything because we need to survive, but good 50 60% of our income was going directly to this kind of or PR marketing, even like paying Instagram or whatever that was putting yourself out there. So at the beginning, like the first like, period, the amount of money in our wasn't so high, because we decide that at when you're young you need to invest because, for instance, we saw a lot of friends of ours that the same kind of course of study that we did, especially Gianluca that is an architect, that the end of the day they're not even doing architecture, because it's so hard for them one to open a practice and find the client that as Gianluca was saying give you the white canvas to make you express your talent. Because a lot of time clients want just a puppet. And when you're really young like us, they think is easier because you're not so well known that they can come to you and they just want you to do what they want. That's it without your input whatsoever. So a lot of them they decided to change completely job and to something that is not even related to architecture because they found herself with a dream that he was crushed by these kind of events. So luck as your Luca said it was like one of the main topic point that we had at the beginning because you need to be lucky as well that to find two clients that they give you like not white canvas completely but a good at risk. sent off, give me your idea. You're young, I trust young people, I want to encourage young people to create to express themselves. This is something that is really hard to find. And we managed to do it.
And then resilience and don't give up. I mean, that's really I think, the main, the main point, and then always be open to learn. Because I mean, it's, as you as as your podcast says, is a Business of Architecture. I mean, it's not I mean, you need to really detach yourself from what is architecture, or some point, I'm more of a dreamer between the two. And Elena, she's more the reality check. Director. So, but it's really important, I would say that is more than 60% 70% of your time is
it so it's really encouraging to hear that, you know, you, you were savvy enough to invest 50% of like, what everything you were kind of earning back into marketing and creating, you know, marketing collateral and hiring a PR agency. You know, that that kind of stuff, if done? Well. And I'm sure you can tell from your websites, you hired the best photographers and did you didn't cut any corners with that kind of no work. And that's, that's something that we see so often, particularly when in startup practices, you know, the project fees were so thin, there was barely anything to hire a photographer. Now, okay, you finished a piece of work. And, you know, certainly as well, if you've, if you've been fortunate enough to bring in and as your first couple of projects, something where you're able to put a personal stamp on then. Absolutely. Now, now's the time to kind of capitalize on that and then take it to magazines and and publications. You would say in there as well, that there's a kind of a learning curve that emerges in terms of the business aspects of the practice, what have been some of the things that have been surprising to you, shocking, or unexpected?
For me, from the sense that from the very beginning, I mean, accountancy numbers, I love numbers, I love proportion. But when we talk about numbers and financial number, I'm the one I'm the one. She is the one. So I leave I leave it to you, Elena. Yes, sir. Just like
so basically, when someone opens a studio is related to art and design, I'm just speaking about like this kind of creative field, he thinks like, it's like, opening like a pottery kind of studio that you just they're doing your things, and then you go home, and you're happy. Now, this is not what happened here. So is just, just opening a shop is opening something like whatever kind of practice all over the world. So not, you're down to numbers and the end of the day, you need to be a business, you have a business structure, you need to have a business plan, you need to move your step in a way that they're not random at the beginning. They are because you need to find your path. So at the beginning, you need to try a few roads, and then assess yourself. But you, I mean, our luck, it was that also my one of my background is studying business. So I knew how to do it in a way I knew how to create a business plan. I knew how to liaise with this kind of kind of taxes and all this kind of contract that you've got in place. Because to be honest, if you give a contract like that, or like this kind of number, without any help to people that study something completely different than economics and business or low, it's quite hard to understand them. Because at the end of the day, you need to give it to the client. And as you said before you realize you were real reliable of everything is on you. The contract needs to
there is no much of like, I mean, any kind of class during the university. I mean, I speaking about architecture, I mean, I studied in Italy. I mean, there are lots of like, all the finance around and the QS sing about the project in Italy, we do it in university, for example. I don't know if we do it if you do it here as a part of your studies. But, but in terms of like how to run your practice, of course, it's not something that they will expect from somebody that leaves architecture maybe maybe in the past, but not I think I mean, they're not really focused on give you that kind of input. That I think it's really really, really,
really, yeah, no, I mean, this is this is definitely one of our criticisms here of our Business of Architecture of architectural education in general. I mean, there are some very forward thinking universities in the UK, University of Manchester, I've been credibly impressed with in terms of their business, you know, what Rob Hyde has been doing there, and their kind of business education and just showing the breadth of innovation of business with Then within the architectural world, I think is absolutely imperative and how business influences architecture and how everything that you do as a designer is inside the context of business. And the London School of Architecture as well, another progressive school, that's kind of opened up a much more healthy conversation around entrepreneurialism and running a business. And you know, how it actually, you know, how how the functioning profession sits inside of a commercial reality. And, you know, in general, in architecture school, I mean, I'm a big kind of critic, if you like, of saying that most architecture, schools are a business themselves, and they're trying to put bums on seats, and they need to fill up the courses, and they make the courses popular. Therefore, they do what they think is the fun stuff, which is primarily designed, but and it's often led by academics who aren't professional who aren't practicing always, but there's a big chunk of and it's, and there's a kind of attitude that prevails of like, well, we're at university, we've got to protect creativity. Therefore, let's not talk about money. Let's not talk about all these other sorts of real life, things that happened in architecture, you can deal with that when you're out in the professional world, and you're learning there. And for here, now, let's have fun and, and kind of keep a purity of an idea which there is, there is there is a lot of sense around that as well in one hand, but it also misses out on enormous amount, and it ends up making us unintentionally. Business averse. And when you've come to set up your own practice, then it's like, oh, goodness, I wasn't. And now I wasn't expecting. That's
great. I agree. Totally agree. Nobody. I mean, I've been for example, some some go out there and
know that I mean, like a lot of friends of ours also, like they've tried to open their practice. And after they bump in this kind of problem. They said, No, I need to freelance for someone else, because I mean, Ethan's different. Nobody here I was speaking a year in London. And then I was speaking like, people that we know, here in London, they said, look, we've tried, but it's so much, because also in terms of time consuming our consuming these and I'm telling it because I've studied and for me, maybe maybe I'm not saying that I'm genius of it, but it's easier to understand numbers because I've started them. But for someone like for instance, Gianluca I'm speaking from for yours for for you, but you struggle wonder is like, like that you struggle. So you were like spending hours straight to understand the mechanism behind the beyond this kind of huge Excel with all these numbers, and you're like, Oh, now, I mean, I need to hire someone to explain to me what happened. And maybe you don't have the money, you don't have the time, you don't have all the energy to do all the information. And I think, as you were saying is massively important that when you're in school, they're gonna teach you at least the basics. Because my dad works in like business and everything he said to me, like, you need to have economical basis to do everything in life, also running the house and, and everything, like, you need to know the basics of it. And then you can do whatever. But if you don't know them, or you don't know the painter in the law of the jungle, and you want to leave like that super happy in the nature, or whatever you do. At the end of the day, if you've got X amount of money, and you spend more than that, or you do messy stuff around with taxes and everything else, you're not in a good, really good position. So if you don't teach people how to do it, it's really hard to open a business and succeed.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's interested in, you know, the kind of dictum of form follows function, you know, versus form follows finance. Yeah. And, and I think that's the kind of that's when you become very aware of like, when upon entry into the profession of architecture, that there are all these other forces at play. And the biggest one is money. And I mean, fee
structure to do a, like a fee proposal. I mean, I mean, that's, that's mantle. I mean, took like, I don't know, how many should get it right. And I don't think we got it right. Now, I mean, that's the main problem because I mean, when you're when you when you approach it, I mean, it's going to be too much should I invoice now, I mean, that that kind of situation where I mean at the very beginning, it's, it's really it's really hard to to give a reason behind it and to have a sort of like the goofy structure behind it. It's really important, really, really important and also because what did you
got there, please can continue
Notice that that also with this kind of creative word that we are working in, always speaking about money, people don't value your profession as yet or profession. So when you're asking for money, they're like, are you charging so much? Like, I mean, yes, I'm charging that much because I study, I've got like, X amount of years of practice on my back. And because they think that you are something that they can use for worse, they don't see the business value that adding on that you're giving to the property to the commercial space to two things, they they see it with maybe huge names, because it's the i Okay, cheaper for needed, so the house is gonna value 20% more, but the design lead kind of practice that we are, they don't see this kind of investment in our fee, something that they can
unless you explain it, unless you explain the fee, a fee proposal stage. Yeah, that that is what is sometimes we do because I mean, you need to actually trigger that, that kind of It's a mindset as well, because they don't know. And that's the main problem in general of what is around, they don't know what an architect that what an architect can do. What is the time spent for just as simple as coming up to planning? Or I mean, just, it's, it's insane.
Did you guys have any mentors? Or were there any other architects who were you who are older and kind of, you know, it more seasoned? You know, they've had their practices for 20 years, who you've been able to go and kind of ask questions of or what have you what happens when you know, you guys have got questions to ask, and who do you go to?
So I go to my dad, I'm a third generation of I mean, my dad is an architect my granddad used to be an ark story this is perfect. And they're back into the so in Italy and it was totally different at the time right? I mean, my granddad if you think about it, he's registration um, was number two in Tuscany so
that's pretty that's pretty cool being number two architecting
to entice Cody. So they were like sharing the CDs I mean, as they want it, so you do that kind of do you do this plot? And I mean, in terms of like, it was totally different. And I mean, now Italy, Italy is not in a really great position. It's where design led architecture practice they're not really I mean, it's difficult it's a different is a difficult word. And a different difficult approach in terms of architecture unless you go in or North Italy in Milan, and big cities are where it's more international demand set. But just getting back to your question in terms of where do I go to I go to my dad that of course he got his experience is an experience based in Italy with lots of developers so it's not really a residential or high end retail client but I get the sense of it so it's it's really it is an answer from from from from from from his experiences so he
got it sounds like you both got some wise parents there have been given good gifts have been given good advice in
this way then tell them like all of it because otherwise they're gonna be like, a bit worried like, what are you doing and then another hour is all fine. No.
Another another question then obviously, you guys are both Italian. Why London as opposed to Italy and what brought you to the UK?
Oh, we've got two completely different stories on the database on both backgrounds like Gianluca is from is going to explain your is part I'm going to play mine. My family is really really really international. My mom is Brazilian, my aunt and uncle are Japanese and my mom came from Brazil She married an Italian guy that my sister both are living in Switzerland one with the Swiss guy national sample. We are all over the place. So when I was 18 I didn't have a choice we said like or New York or London you're not going to Italy like because if you're in Italy and you're in a small town I'm from Genova. You get used to stay in Genova. No one is speaking English, the mindset it's super close. And as a free girls with my sister, we struggled because we couldn't fit there. We said okay, but we know that there is something else and for them to resent. So I didn't have an option. There was the option A you go to London, which is the nearest one and you've got your at the time I had my sister here.
This is genuine Renzo Piano land. Yes. Correct. It says
so, but in terms of people that are living there, like in Italy, we've got each reason And each city is got his own kind of character in terms of people that are living there, and Genova is super famous that are super close. And if someone else from Genova is coming in, no one is going to speak to him. They're gonna like avoid the your presence. So my dad said, Okay, you're young. And the only thing that you need to do when you're young is travel, explore, you know, Brazil, because your mom is Brazilian. So if of our life we spent there, so try something else, my sister went to Australia, and then Switzerland, and I went to Brazil. And I said, I'm going to London, with my expectation was to save a few years in London and then move. But then after like, three, four years, I opened my first practice, and when you open a practice also is, are there now it's easier, like, as we were talking before, maybe to stay one month in Paris one month, and Trancoso, one month, whatever you want, but before it was more stuck the situation so I started the business. And I said, like, look, I'm gonna stay here. And I just continue to stay here. And I think I'm gonna stay here for like, a long time. But for Joe, Luca situation, it was. He's gonna explain the opposite than me.
Yeah. So I mean, when I graduate in 2000, and I think back in 2013, actually graduated in general under the Polytechnic of Turin Right. And, and, I mean, by didn't met Elena in general, as in London. And so I moved here, because so first of all, so at the very beginning, I wanted to do like, a sort of experience. But my main goal was that Italy for me was not enough. I wanted to give like a sofa, like a.com, to what I had back in Italy, and not to be recognized as the son of for the grandson off. And, you know, I mean, when you finish when you when you, when you say immunize your studies, I mean, you're not, I mean, you don't know what you want your nor what is your purpose, I mean, in terms of architecture. I mean, I had to go to somebody else in to actually learn who I am. In terms of like, what I want from architecture, what I think, what, what is our what is my why, in terms of in terms of it? And so I moved to London, I didn't have I didn't speak one word in English, or Wow. Because it was insane. It was hard. Well, and remember, MicroStation? I mean, I started with MicroStation. I used to work in Revit in university. And so we MicroStation didn't know one word I didn't know what to do. And of course, I don't know if you know, MicroStation is totally different.
Yeah, I used to be a heavy MicroStation user back in the day.
I loved it. But then at the end of it, look, I mean, reference for me reference, I didn't know I mean, what was it was totally different than that, of course, my language barrier was was very, very hard. And then I stayed. I mean, I found this practice where I actually felt at home and I learned a lot was as more practice and but very, very into details and resolution of it. So it's actually you get the reason behind, and I loved it. So it's really you understand the purpose for it?
Did you did you take English lessons when you got here? Or did you just put them?
I did, I did as far as I spent two weeks, I spent two weeks but the funny thing that my boss, my old boss, so he used to have a house in Italy. So he said when he when we when we when we, when he hired me, said, Look, I'm gonna learn a bit of Italian, and you're gonna learn English. So let's go with like a six month internship. And so that was that was the excuse. But then, of course, then, of course, I just lost a lot. Six, seven years, I guess. Yeah. So it was it was a nice journey. Wow, that
I mean, that's amazing. I've learning French at the moment, and I'm hearing here in Paris and just appreciate the, the magnitude of you know, taking for granted a language and then entering into a different, you know, space and place, but certainly professionally as well. And kind of throwing yourself in there and not speaking the language and then making your career work. That's, you know, that's, I think, that's incredible.
It's hard. It's really hard. And if you if you ask me, I speak much better and technical. When we speak about architecture and the on site, and any kind of building regs, etc. When we speak about day to day basis. I mean, crap and crap. Sometimes I say what you're saying, I mean, you can't really put One word next to the other. That's really so because I learned English doing architecture that's,
that's good. Your English proper architecture speak, Robert proper, amazing. Amazing. So, obviously you guys are a married couple. Yeah. Tell us about that. No, I was great. And working together obviously.
Depends on which day you're gonna ask us this question you're gonna give us like different answers. But at the end of the day, how are we doing today? We're doing well, because we're into different kind of know, the background is different. Now I'm joking. The important thing that from day zero, we decided to merge the practice and we were married. So I mean, we know that was a big step. But at the end of the day is like the knowing your place in the company. So when we're talking about we have a debrief initially to have, like, ideas running together, like working on the final concept together as a team, but then i phi, and this is marriage, so we fight. But but then when it's down to the architecture part, I totally trust Gianluca, and is following that part. And when whenever it's like down to the other section of the work, that sometimes he can be like, a fine line where I start and when you finish, but we try to set up this kind of workload at the beginning of the job. So we try to you do yours, and I do mine in a way that no one
we meet in the middle, and we actually generate the proposal together. That is, what is the beauty of it? And as a married couple, I mean, we speak about lots. I mean, I think 80% of the time we speak about what's what's about nine married? Yeah. But I mean, you know, it's always quite nice. And I grew up in a family where my dad is the architect and my mum, actually, always, I mean, they say lunch and dinner, you get, I mean, bombarded from, I mean, probably clients from with the planners problem with whoever it is. And I mean, sometimes, of course, I mean, you need to have quite good common sense to understand what's going on, and you can give the right answer, right. And but I mean, even with Elena, of course, I mean, we sit down, and we can discuss it, and I got somebody that can understand that we can, I mean, solve a problem together. That is great. And I mean, funnily enough, business wise, it's much better if you think, I mean, you go to director based on the same company. And I mean, it just starts as the director. So it's great. And but we are really happy about the how is how's it formatted in terms of like, architecture, interior design, so she got her own meetings, I got my mine, and then we generate the proposal together? And
do you have completely independent clients sometimes, so clients that, you know, they're not doing any architectural services, they're just purely in the interiors. domain can happen,
but depends on it's a fine line. As I was saying before, it's a fine line, because like, for instance, there are these huge interior kind of renovation kind of projects that they still need, like to have easy involvement in it. And do
architecture of it.
So, yeah, of course, some of them, there are like, more fun for each side and others, and then the opposite way, like, one way or the other. But we try to find clients that, that we tried to find clients, the clients that we had today, they managed for us to work both in the same project.
Yeah, I mean, in this concept responded really well. I mean, they understand the benefit of having both of us involved, because of course, I mean, in terms of fee proposal as well, there are two separate fee proposal that is important to mention. I mean for for, for this matter that when then I mean, they appreciate for example, you start to develop the proposal of whoever is going to be the space how you're going to live with it. So in terms of like a finishes in terms of like a fixed feature, or it's like a built in joinery, anything that is going to go within it is going to be all around service from the beginning. And so and they appreciate that is very it's helpful, and it's it's a it's a good it's a good approach. I mean, we are happy with it
is also easier at the end of the day also for them to operate just one practice and like, done. Don't say like look, Gianluca speak with this practice Elena and try to find like a point in the middle to give me a solution and then one is late.
Sometimes it's impossible because if you find, by bet my previous experience, you find yourself in the middle of the project where you actually were declined to hire an interior designer. And of course, there's gonna be some clashes. I mean, it's it's, it's impossible not. So that's why we came up with this approach.
Fantastic. And how's the practice grown involved in terms of staff? Are you working with freelancers and contractors? Or do you have full time staff members now.
So we got three Freelancer here in the UK. And we got the two collaborator, external collaborators that are of course accountant, and then sorry, we got the PR, and then we got also CGI, collaborator. And then back in Italy, we got other because the idea is to at the end of the day, we will love to have, let's say, under one roof, one two team, that one that can work for Denmark, one can work from from my from the Italians, that will be the ideal scenario. So have just wanted one or two, but at the moment that how we spend it, we work.
I mean, Freelancer plays because like, because like, again, down to economics, to hire an ad like people on the salary, you need to have a certain flow of project that you know, they're too comfortable like hiring people because you want to existence because when you hire someone you want to hire someone that you trust that is got your the same eyes that you do there is not so easy that you don't hire someone on the road, because it's cheaper, because he's not gonna give you the same result that you want to achieve. And you want to trust them completely, because you're giving them your client in your hands and you don't want to redo the work from scratches. So at at this stage, even if it's a bit more expensive for us is makes makes much sense to a freelancer based on Project instead of having these huge commitment that in the end of the month, we don't know maybe if we can
no, absolutely, I think that's that's a very wise solution. And I think this is one of the one of the advantages of kind of setting a practice these days is that, you know, it's a lot easier to find contractors, it's easier to work with people in different countries, and have kind of remote remote working. And it makes a lot of sense, as a young practice to kind of keep like that, I mean, you can build a business to a million pounds worth of revenue and beyond using a purely Hub and Spoke or contractor model, if you like and not have full time, staff members, and it makes it very lightweight for you as a business. You know, if if all of a sudden a handful of projects suddenly stop, you're not having to scramble hitting all the decks trying to bring more work, you just put pause on people's contracts or, you know,
or you give them flexibility as well, because that's really another thing that is very important we are I mean, after COVID, we realize how important it is. I mean, have your freedom have. I mean be be wherever you want.
I think this is this is a really important point is you know that there's a there's an increased desire for remote working and flexible working hours. And really, I mean, I kind of think a lot of that kind of that kind of in the context of a business. You know, if you've got employees who want that, then that's great. But it comes with additional responsibility. And it comes with additional accountability and also usually requires a lot of, you know, it's the most skilled people that are able to have that freedom and flexibility more readily. And you can want to have that yourself, then being a contractor was perfect, because then you can choose your hours and you can work two days a week, if you want to work two days a week, you can take four months off if you want. You can work wherever you like in the world. And I think, you know, we're seeing more and more people move into that as a lifestyle decision as as well. And it works perfectly. It works very well for both parties involved. Yeah,
I totally agree. Positively. I mean, hours times. I mean, yeah, business hours are overrated, in my view. I mean, I used to, I mean, when I was studying, I used to work during the night and I'm still like, working during the night rather than during the day. So it's, it's funny, but it's yeah, I totally agree with you in terms Like I've given the flexibility for for everybody. Businesses business, but it's
important, I think that young people can get this, can we get it, we are young, we've got like our own things too, as well. But for instance, if you speak with not sit like parents, parents in general, they're not in general, because our parents, I put our parents in this line, if you tell them that their employee, they're gonna work wherever they want, they're gonna not have like the lunch break, they can not come to the office for two days, they're gonna look at you saying like, what? Sorry, not this is not the way you work, you work in the office. And you we try to explain to them, not really not really anymore, you can work. Because for them, and also, if they try to find my dad is almost retired, he's 72. So it doesn't, I'm not going to try also to explain to him because like, in two years, I hope for him that is going to be on a beach drinking more heaters, but they want to hire someone in these kind of young people ask them for flexibility. They're not going to hire them in Italy. Unfortunately, there are a lot like that still, because I mean,
very, very close mindset. Yes, that's an improv. Yeah. I mean, we are still got the lunch break, and that is from one to three. So 123, if you think about it, that three when I
think I think it's, it's interesting, it's an interesting kind of generational and kind of time that we're in with this, this idea of much more flexible working hours. And I do think like, if you're an employee, and you want those, those that flexibility, then you know, the model of being an employees that you get your salary comes in very comfortably every single month, and then you get all these other benefits and perks. And if you want the freedom and the flexibility, then it should come with a risk, if you like, which is the risk of being a contractor
and an employee. Yeah. So as as as as as practice as we are, for example. I mean, you got the same kind of approach. So you got your own risk, and you got your benefit. It's
either Yeah, no, absolutely. Very good. Very good. Um, another thing why I think working with contractors is so is so valuable as well, is that often contractors, you know, they are essentially running their own mini business themselves. They're very cognizant of time, they're very cognizant of getting stuff done and delivered. And, you know, there's an efficiency that can kind of come come with it, as well. And it will, you know, it can be very, very, very, very beneficial for everyone involved. So,
what one thing that I would say that, I mean, what are sometimes it's really hard to find it, because I mean, what we are after is somebody that is part of the team, so I don't like to be the SE I mean, it's my design. So for me to to actually design proposal. I like it to actually build it together with the team, you know, I mean, I don't like just my eyes, I need somebody a third die somebody that it's outside of the proposal in order to actually shape it at its best. You know, that's really, and sometimes it's very difficult to find the main, I mean, good, good freelancers that are focused on that.
Yep. Very good. So what does the rest of 2023 have in store for you guys?
So at the moment, like our business at the moment, I was just shaped is alpha residential and Al Freetail. So we just finished a retail shop and Walton Street. Kids shop that we gain after doing the immediate weeks to chop, just around the corner in New Zealand Street. And then now we're working in fewer residential projects, big residential project or a London and our ope is with Ken business, the business PR and marketing and that to do more work abroad, because strangely enough, we started our business with zero projects in London and they were all abroad, which was the fun of it. Yeah, because we started we were in Brazil and one in, in Switzerland, but we really enjoy it because in the same time we were working in the Swiss kind of kind of flow and everything is super restricted. It's easy to understand the Brazilian that you can understand like I mean, it was a main one Brazil is amazing. Brazil not not some pile of a small town on the on the on the beach. It was like they don't know what they think more or less.
Another one of these amazing benefits of kind of You know, starting a business now that you like, like we've said, you can be working all over the world. How do you deal with things like, you know, professional indemnity insurance when you're working? Certainly at the beginning of a business like, what do you what are your insurers say to you?
Hey, streaky drink lots of questions, lots of questions a lot of paper. And we because we need to be as precise as we can. And ultimately, the interior design part is the result of furniture involved, like yes, the shoe so you need to be like to have the right one, we've got an agent that that is helping us with the best quote and setting the best insurance for us. But you need to be really precise because we want to be covered, there is no way that I want to go to Brazil because there can something cannot be an easier than other places because like there is not there for Alrighty, let's put like that in this kind of small village is not in the main series. So we we've we struggled a bit to have the right one. But after like a couple of months before starting the jobs, we ended up having like the perfect plan that is covering us all over the world. But each year we need to re update it with the new project that we're doing following our needs in the direction that we're going.
About one thing is I mean either prefer, prefer Brazilian from Switzerland, and we had the two local architects. So at the end of the day, yes, the PII insurance would need to be amended, but correct. So you got their own cover. So that that's really another thing that needs to be considered. But it's very funny. I mean, how I mean those two different world, I'm in Switzerland, in Brazil, how funny was between like a building regs. And I mean, in Brazil, you can do whatever we did everything. We design everything. I mean, there is no system in that house in terms of like installation that they're not really strict about it and we submitted for planning application and they came on site and we gained planning application when the house was built. If you think about
them every architects dream you're like
I would love I mean, I would love to build more in Brazil. They weren't on site. I mean Marshall Cogan, if you look at Marshall Cogan,
notice on your on your website there you've got one of those the images of one of the Oscar Niemeyer recliners,
yeah. pieces that I used to deal with. But it was funny to do the works in Brazil because in Switzerland they always like all dressed the same with ailments with super professional clothes. We went there, they had their Panama the sun hat with the helmet on top and shirtless with our Diana's doing the commands and we're like, is it legal? Yeah. Don't worry, tranquil or not, okay, okay, we go. But it was so fun. So our dream is to see even other places to understand also like the way they build, because it's also important to know how other countries the issue that they've got, the way they're building, there is a learning process. So we want the our method, I mean, it's to everything to do something abroad as well, like, also, I don't know Asia.
Wonderful, brilliant. Well, Jen, Luca and Milena, thank you so much for your, your insights, and just sharing your journey so far really, really fascinating and just amazing to see so much talent and enthusiasm and for you guys to be so open and candid about your experiences and the reality of setting up and growing and growing a practice during a global pandemic.
Thank you very much for having me so
much. It was a pleasure. Pleasure.
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. And that's a wrap. And don't forget if you want to access your free training to learn how to structure your firm, or practice for freedom, fulfillment and profit, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you'd like to speak to one of our advisors directly follow the link in the information. The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you the unstoppable
