And I think that's fascinating that, that way of looking at things. And actually, if you don't plan before the pitch, or the, when you're coming to see the client, you don't always perform very well. And you come across as a bit fumbling, casual and unorganized, which doesn't help anyone, especially a top CEO, who's very busy, and you've got 15 minutes to make an impression that so I think planning is clearly really, really important. I mean, I and I think this works for anyone in terms of we get a bit obsessed with architects don't like selling architects don't like marketing. architects don't like business development, and it's disgusting words and no, but I think there is a there's a difference. You can position your team to their strengths as well. And I think one thing of not obsessing about those terms, but focusing on partnerships and building partnerships, I think it's really important and the fundamentally we're trying to build relationships with people in terms of selling in terms of building trust with spirit the same person on the opposite side who you may or may not have known for a while how quickly you can get to that trust situation so they buy with you I think it's fascinating. Thomas would often say any seven touches before you really will go will buy buy something from me, which I mean, you hear time and time again in various other business books. I think I wrote down the key pick ended up with peace for some reason that partnership was one then there was like problems and challenge and I think problems is interesting if you listen or read Donald Miller's we've written some amazing books, including story brands, but he he positioned things of understand what the client's problems are, what their pain points why Would they be in a position it like that, I think some people don't care. If you're 75 years of practice, some people don't care, it's about how are you going to solve my problem now, and it can be the individual here for their team. And often serving, if you position yourself to be I can solve that problem. It's not even architecture in some ways. It's like, I am that trusted person who can build a team to solve that problem, whatever it is, specifically, and we've identified it first. And then we break it down into its component parts really clearly. And then you start building out obviously the brief of the project and the purpose, which is the third pick, strangely, and then then this idea of practicing, of doing it, refining it, doing it better, constantly learning constantly growing, and then you get your portfolio, which again, was a little peek. I couldn't do, it sounds really cheesy, but then you get a portfolio, which does matter. But I think that that reinforces the wheel, because then you get you go to the next meeting, and you say, Well, I've just been in this meeting, solving these problems to this person, he looks like you have exactly the same problems. Have you got any others that you know, and we know how to solve these problems, because here's the examples. You're not even talking about money yet, but you're talking about problem solving. And I feel that is the strongest position because and, and something else I thought was quite nice, where you position the client as the hero in this whole piece. And you you're the guide, again, solving their problem, you can be that wise, not having a bigger beard, but a Gandalf type character or a, a guide, not Dumbledore. But in terms of Harry's the hero for clients, the hero, he doesn't quite know what he's doing. He's got a big risk on his shoulders to try and sort out this problem, or development, whatever that officious positioning it like that they're in quite a nervous, stressful situation, they may lose their job, if they don't deliver on time, the client may lose lots of money if they don't deliver it. So recognizing that and then positioning yourself, you're not the hero, you're the guide, you can solve by giving them advice, you can solve their challenges, because you've got this, all this wisdom, which you can help them with. And actually, that's really positive. So they often you turn, in a sales situation, you can turn lots of people off, if you come across as I'm this, I've done this, I'm amazing, blah, blah, blah, you know, and actually, I go off, you know, I want to do work with you often the more mature experience sophisticated clients will, will know a lot of that, I think, and they almost can design the building that they want something different as well. So this isn't a P but I think admitting you don't know everything as well, and you're willing to learn and go on this journey with them. And it will be a pleasant journey. I think that's something clean that something heavyweight do very well is actually really nurture a client really communicate very clearly not in technical speak. But communicate really simple, not simply that clearly to co vary and then display the designs very simply fosters as well, to be honest, there's a there's definitely a sort of confidence in both camps. There's an ability to we can deliver this, whatever it is believing us we believe in ourselves. And as a can do attitude was something I was always really impressed with Foster's very much. There was this drive to get stuff done. And there was this ability to get stuff done. And the client was like, maybe sometimes a bit disorganized. They had this challenge, how do we get this over the line, they know actually often in the Middle East as well. Some of the more recent experiences where fosters will actually be the ones driving the projects forward, and making sure the client was supported properly, especially if it was a startup client who had lots of new people in place, or people who disappeared and new ones came in. They were the ones arguably who held a lot of the knowledge. So I think that's, that's fascinating. And then it's a natural conversation to get into once you've crossed the line from you've built a relationship, you built the trust step event into a like, where it makes complete sense to work with you because you're so helpful. Of course, I'm going to pay you of course, I want to work with you. They make my life easy for the clients. So I think if you can position yourself like that, it said not necessarily clearly there's then they have to have to go to three clients or three, three different people to get procurement, right. But I think if you're you can justify your value then you can justify. Well, as I said at the start, you can maybe try and secure a small, small commission to really test it if you need more time to really build them. full respect to be if there's any questions you have or they have about you, but over deliver in that first stage. And then it's just a no brainer to move to the next stage because by then you've probably defined the brief really clearly And I think what's important is really showing that value of making sure the brief, the budget and the design vision are aligned by the end of stage two or concept design and holding the client to account. So you've got to sign that off, and be quite firm with them in a nice way. But just saying, for the project to be successful, we have even on the biggest scale, we had this, the design didn't go the brief didn't match the budget, which was a real challenge. Coke was a big stakeholder groups because of and how you rectify that, I think is a big discussion as well, then the design vision will be what it will be. But that's a product in some ways of what they want in the building, what they want, how much money they have. And you need to square that square that get the triangle to work together and be aligned. And then you can obviously move more into the production stages and delivery and get all the other team members involved. Building the the engineering complexity building, making sure it's costed and driven. But I think so that would be my approach, I think. And then, yeah, just assessing if they're on the same journey, because some clients aren't, and I think they want to something good enough. And is that enough, is that and then there's always constraints with budgets, sometimes very strict. So be realistic about that. Getting that cost consulting involved quickly, early sense checking if their budgets realistic, because often it can not be the client did the budget three years ago, things have changed, we've gone up with the market changes, or it was just done badly. And that can cause huge stress and the projects and the project fails not for your property, the architects, what hard work? It's because it isn't hasn't been set up properly. And I think all those questions again, you could be a guide in that sense and saying, Well, this budget is not realistic. And I think two roles which work well as where you have this either a project manager or design manager role. And then the design architect working side by side no see that can work quite nicely where the design leader partner can can drive the design forward, keep it positive relationship, the partner is a sort of a design manager or project manager can push. Push forward on the more commercial side, the project management stuff, the other the wider team issues like Why aren't the engineers appointed? Why isn't the cost consultant on board? Why haven't you signed off these decisions, we've got all this information we need sorted out, we're waiting for and that's holding us up and, and how you, you can keep that sort of more process, project management steps going. And then the architect can stay positive, have a really positive discussion with the client, it's still the same team. But you, you can split out the meetings, and often you have a client side you can have someone sign up the design vision, someone sign up for budget, and then someone delivering it. And then so you can mark different teams. So yeah,