Quiet Rebels® Podcast #118: Designing Communities with Intention with Anna Hetzel

1:42PM Jun 26, 2022

Speakers:

Mai-kee Tsang

Anna Hetzel

Keywords:

community

space

people

programme

question

boundaries

facilitator

facilitation

person

conversation

hear

facilitating

conduct

share

feel

happening

support

business

counsellor

listening

You're listening to the quiet rebels podcast, the place to be to explore what it means to run an online business when you don't always align with the status quo. I'm your host Mai-kee Tsang, the sustainable visibility mentor, certified trauma sensitive leadership coach, and podcast guesting strategy trainer. And I'm here to remind you that contrary to what we're taught to believe, you don't always have to be the loudest person in the room in order to be heard. Because if anything, we stand out and make an even deeper difference when we stand up for what we believe in and share who we're supporting along the way. So if you'd like to join me and my guests, as we venture into these pretty nuanced conversations, where we choose to find the meaning in the messy middle of our entrepreneurial journey, then let me welcome you into the quiet rebellion. Let's get started.

Hello, wonderful, quiet rebels. Today's episode is one that I've been so excited to record because it's just something that we need to talk a lot more about. And there has been a singular human in the space that we share. Who has been pioneering these conversations, and I'm so excited to bring them into the quiet rebels arena today, because we're going to be talking about all things community design and facilitation. And who better to lead this conversation than on a head flow. So Ana, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Hey, I'm super excited to be here.

Yes, oh, gosh, there are so many different directions. I know this conversation can go. But I would be so like, excited to hear like, what made you want to start talking about this? Because I remember you ran a workshop probably like a year or two ago about this is the facilitation work. And then since then, it's evolved into what's now called Community cam, which I'm so excited during the summer, and all of the things and so yeah, I'd love to hear your journey into this. Like why community design and facilitation for you?

How far back do we go?

I mean, wherever you are.

So I have been, I mean, we've all been a part of countless communities throughout our lives, I've had the absolute joy and luck of when I was in high school, I was part of this really amazing secular youth group. So non religious. But when you say youth group, especially in the United States, people think church youth group, but secular we met every Sunday, and we just talked. As students, we got to choose the topics, and then the adults would create an entire programme around conversations. And it was incredible. I really believe that that space is why I am a critical thinking adult today because I got to figure out who I was in a really safe space. And then fast forward, I became a counsellor in that same youth group as an adult, which was really cool. I kind of got to see how the sausage was made, right? Like how, you know, how did that amazing experience come to be and be able to facilitate those really amazing conversations to help high school students understand, like, what are your values? What do you think about these really intense topics that are just kind of being thrown around the hallways. And so just really seeing how a really intentional community can actually change someone's life. And then becoming an entrepreneur, and joining online communities and going, Oh, my God, this could be so much better. You know, I was a summer camp counsellor, as a counsellor in this youth group. I was a teacher for a really hot second. And so understanding how to create great spaces where people feel comfortable is not magic. I think that there's this idea, especially in the online business world where it happens magically, or that person is just naturally great at facilitation and they just find the right people. Some of it is luck. But all of that comes from intentionally creating the right space, right? Like make a you're all about intention, right? And you take things really seriously and you really think things through and so that transfers over to community design as well. Right? Creating a great online community experience is much more than throwing up a Slack channel and tossing people into it and saying, have fun.

Cross your fingers, hope you interact and get to know each other. Okay, bye bye. That's for sure. Yes.

That's how a lot of people do it. They stop it onboarding and then there's nothing after the onboarding experience, or there's very little after the onboarding experience. So So that's the Semi long track of being a student to being a counsellor to being a camp counsellor to now being a camp counsellor again, in a different way with community camp.

Gosh, yes, I, I remember thinking, you know, on sales pages for, you know, courses and memberships, anything that does have a community attached to it, it's always like considered a bonus. And to me is always felt like a, it's an a given, you know? And I almost feel like, oh, yeah, this is just to stuff the bonus stack. Right. And so what we were saying earlier about kind of like, the intention is so important. And to carry through your on your promise, as well. So what you see up front is what you get inside as well. And what I'm hearing is that there's a, there's quite a disconnect, or it's like a lack of thoughts around the community aspect of a lot of these programmes.

Yeah. And so actually kind of, can I ask you a question? Yeah, of course. So, so to kind of give a live example of that, that, that myths of expectation, where community is a bonus, but when people see it, they think a lot of things. So when you hear the word community, what do you think and feel when you hear that word?

Well, I'm going to draw some experience from a live community, what do you want me to say a good one or a bad one, because I can bring

both are incredibly relevant to this conversation, bring whatever you want.

So recently, I started taking some dance classes, and I'm a to left for dorky type of dancer, because I've never been good at dancing, I would like to be so that's why I'm there. And so there is a studio in London. And it's, it's keys is key point is diversifying fitness. And not just in terms of the different types of fitness and different types of dance, but actually the kind of teachers that they bring in, and that you can tell that they are from all different sorts of backgrounds, they have different identities. But we all come here from all walks of life. And we're here to do the same thing, which is to have fun, get fit and support each other. And so I was very, very resistant to the idea of first until my friend was like, come on, like this community, they are so supportive, they're not there to judge you that they they are there to really cheer you on as you develop your skills as a dancer. And I felt that so much because like at the time of this recording, over the weekend, I went to an open day where you got to try out as many classes as you want to, so long as your body could stand it. And the entire day, everyone was just rooting for each other, supporting each other, and not dismissing themselves in the process. Like they didn't have to worry about how much space they took up. There was room for everyone. So that's what I look for in communities, whether it is in person or virtual. And so of course, on the flip side, I've experienced the opposite of that, where it feels like everyone's fighting for themselves. And because as a sometimes when a community is too big. And it feels like you have to you have to be the one to raise your hand the fastest in the Zoom Room to even fingers crossed, get a spot to be coached. I personally don't like that feeling because it feels extremely competitive. And it's kind of like, oh, well, first conference of tough if you don't if you didn't get the spot, you know. So it's kind of like being able to have everybody gets to take up space without monopolising the time of the facilitator and the leader.

Yeah, so the, there's a couple of things that come out of those stories. One is, when you hear the word community, you bring all of those experiences with that word. And so thinking about that, first of example that we were talking about, of like community as a bonus, or as an add on, community is never a bonus or an add on that word carries a lot of weight. And we all bring a lot of good and bad experiences into that space. And so the great example of the dance studio is you have a great experience because they set up the right expectations, and then maintain those expectations, right? This is a space to be open to move in whatever way movement works for you. It's for everybody. And we're going to protect the people once they show up so they can relax, right? And then the difference with that online space where people are fighting for space and raising their hand and it's super competitive. There was probably a misalignment of expectation on the sales process and then actually inside the community where you were expecting maybe closer contact with the person who was leading it, or more intimate experiences and what you got was this like nails out fight for attention, which is not what you signed up for. And so really understanding how do we sell one what we're doing? And then how do we fulfil that. So we're all taught how to, a lot of us know how to sell a thing. But when it comes to community, it's not necessarily something that we're taught how to fulfil and deliver on those promises, because it's, we're not ever really taught what it means to create community in our lives, it's just kind of happens, we expect it to happen. And if it doesn't, we either leave or give up or knock out white knuckle through it, right? Because and that I paid for it. So I'm gonna show up, get my money's worth as much as I can. Right. And I think especially with course creators, when they add that community add on that community space is actually probably where your people will learn the most. So there's a lot of research out there, where, when it comes to learning and courses, you can get to like 80% understanding, maybe just by reading or watching or listening, you get to like 95% mastery through conversation. And so if you really want your course participants to really succeed, how are you creating that conversation? What types of conversations can they have around the materials? How are they integrating it into their lives and into their businesses? Like all of that comes with community space? Yes,

yes, yes. Yes. All I can say, really, for this. So you're setting those expectations that when I think back in retrospect like that, is because I often see the word intimate be used. And intimacy means something completely different to many different people. So I've seen like, Oh, yes, we have an intimate group. And to me, intimacy is like six to 10 people Max, like that feels intimate, where you can kind of speak to everyone without being like, many, many, many hours on Zoom, because zoom fatigue is a real thing. But I also see intimate use for groups of like, 2030 30, something. And I'm like, how was that internet. But this I know, that's also a perspective shift. But because there wasn't an explanation of why that was intimate to them. Like why that number in particular was intimate. That's where there was a disconnect. So when I came in thinking it'd be intimate, then it felt like a fighting tooth and nails like to raise my hand to hopefully get a spot.

Yeah, I'm, like, gesturing madly at everything you're saying. So intimate is your right, it comes up a lot in sales pitches and defining what that means. And then also really thinking about, is it numbers? Or is it a feeling, right? So that six to 10, it's numbers, but it's also that feeling of being of knowing everybody who's there and really getting to hear them and support them and be heard, right? When you get to more than 12, things start to fracture. And this is like part, there's been a lot of studies, like once you get past 12 to 15, things start to break up a little bit. So when you have when you want to create that intimate feel, and you have more than 12 people, how do you break those groups up into smaller groups. So 30 is not a small group. Six is a small group three is an amazing size, to have really in depth, comfortable, intimate conversations. And so there's ways to create an intimate feel with 50 people. But that comes into the design of how you build the space. Where can people have those, like campfires, small intimate moments within a larger space?

That's a really good point that you mentioned that it's not necessarily the number, but the feeling that you would love everybody to be on the same page with, like, Oh, this is what it mean that this is what we get to do because of this kind of size and kind of conversations we get to have, etc. So yeah, I saw your gestures getting bigger and bigger when I was just kind of going on like a little mini rant about intimacy. And I was like, oh, okay, I know you have a lot to say. So come on, tell us. So, one of the questions so clearly, setting expectations is one of the big things so what are some of the expectations that you found that come with the word community, your experience? Oh,

that's a long list. It's not a few feelings words. And when you get into feelings words, it gets really tricky when it comes to building a structure in business around feelings. So when people hear community Use words like mutual concern and a sense of safety or enough sense of safety, support. Conversation, sometimes it's friendships, sometimes it's just people that, you know, it kind of depends on what that space is? The answer is always It depends. If you're building a 1000s, person membership, the idea of community that people are going to come with is going to look a lot different because of the space that you're offering. Right? We all have tonnes of communities that we're a part of right now, probably, maybe your two or three besties that you hang out with for hours, and hours and hours, that's a very specific type of community. And we show up very specifically for those folks. And maybe you have your family, which is a very different type of community, and can be complicated and fun, and stressful, and all of those all at the same time. And you show up differently for that space, and you know, the expectations that you're gonna have there. There's the business community, there's maybe a mastermind that you're in, right, so we're all these different, not necessarily versions of ourselves, but different facets of ourselves show up in different spaces, depending on what that space is for. So when you go back to those expectations, the first question to really ask yourself is, why do people want to be here? Right? Why? It's probably not to learn how to write a great page, if you're a copywriter, right? There's, there's a gotta like, think a lot deeper, right? Why would someone want to show up in my space? What are they feeling? What type of transformation are they trying to find? Those are the expectations I need to be aware of. And those are the ones I need to help talk about. And also, if there's something that maybe someone's feeling, say, you're not going to get this year, and that's okay, that they're not going to get it there. But they need to know, this is not the space for that. Right? So really thinking about who your people are the really, really, really cool thing about community design, is you don't have to make the decisions as the facilitator. You don't

have a small, what do you mean?

There's a slight difference between facilitation and leadership. Okay. And I think, as business owners, we're coming at it from a sense of leadership, I am going to lead this space. And yes, there's going to be times where you're leading the space. But in terms of your community, you're facilitating the space. And that's a little bit different. That's a little bit more of a step back. Right? You're listening to the folks that are inside of it, you're hearing what they're saying, and you're parsing through all of their needs, and you get to help guide the space. But you're not leading it. If you're leading it, it's going to fall as soon as you step away for a vacation. Right. So thinking about, how are you asking consistently asking the folks inside of your communities? What's working? What's not? How can this be better? As is this? Is this fulfilling your needs right now? Do we even need to have this particular monthly chat? Can it be formatted differently? Right, being in a community facilitation space is like your job is to just ask a tonne of questions,

and to listen to the request. So what I'm hearing is, when you are in the leadership role, you call the shots, basically, and everyone follows. Whereas in facilitation, it sounds like it's a collaborative co creation experience for the space that we share. And as the facilitator, you sit back and hold that space as the interactions are happening, yes, you chime in, but is not that your word goes. And that's it full stop. That's what I'm hearing.

Yeah, you're more like the space protector. All right. Yeah. They're protecting the people inside the space. Oh, I have this brilliant thought. And it just totally fell out of my head, Oh, it came back. You said co create. And that's actually another really important reason of why putting yourself more into a protective role rather than a leadership role is giving your folks and your membership and your mastermind, whatever, the ability to co create that space, it does a lot of things. One, they feel a lot more ownership of it. And so they're going to be a lot more emotionally invested. Right? Like I helped make this happen. And now it's even more the space that I want. And that's going to help in the business side of things that's going to help with churn that's going to help with engagement is going to help with a lot of things. It's also probably going to help with referrals, getting new people in because the people inside feel really seen and heard. Right like how many community Ladies online, have you been in where everyone is shouting for something to happen and the leaders like, I don't want to, I'm not going to do that. We're doing it how I launch it, and it's not going to change. Yeah, which is, which is fine. However, that's probably not a community. That is a transactional membership space, in my opinion, like they're going in there to get a thing and they're bouncing. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you attach community to it, it requires a little bit different approach.

I'm really glad I love how the example left your head and then immediately came back like literally in the moment, I was like, wow, like, when I have brain farts, they never come back. In the same call, it comes back like, I don't know how to am I'll honour I remember what I was about to say now.

Yeah, I think the secret is, I think better on my feet. And I'm at a standing desk right now. So I just found, I just bounced a little bit, and then it bounced back into my brain.

Oh, I love that. But oh, gosh, this is such an important conversation, because it's, it is important, how you, because I'm thinking into my own communities right now. And I set expectations ahead of time in this in the onboarding process. No, not in the onboarding, that onboarding is when they said yes, but in the sales process, when they are considering joining, I make it very clear that yes, there's a trauma sensitive space that I hold, for example, however, this is not a place to process your trauma, because that is not in my scope of practice. Therefore, if you are, if you can imagine or envision that this could be the territory that you go into, please ensure that if you do decide to join that you have an additional layer of support, like a different support group or your healer of choice, or healing modality of choice. And to support you in that because that cannot be me, because I'm not qualified to write. So that has been very helpful, because there are some of my clients who very openly talk about the fact that they have therapists, and sometimes the thing that come up in our sessions, they're going, Oh, this is great fodder for a therapy session, and they know where to take it. So there's no miscommunication. They're about what the space is for. And what I do like should that line come very close interview.

And because you've set that expectation, and have said it so clearly, and, and it's also expectation, is synonymous a lot with boundaries when it comes to community. Because you've set that boundary, even before they say yes to paying for it and getting into the programme. And then you probably reinforce it quite a few times during onboarding. And then probably every once in a while, maybe it comes in, in conversation, and you re reinforce it. That consistent reinforcement is great facilitation, if you feel like a broken record, you're probably doing something right. Really, because Because think about the experience of there's maybe there's a community moderator that is seems to be really inconsistent, and how they reinforce the rules. And then one person says something that's like add a line, and they decide this is the moment I'm going to come in and say, Hey, we don't do that here, that person is probably going to feel called out singled out, they're probably going to get really upset of like, well, this person did it too. And you become like five year olds. It's not necessarily their fault that they had that reaction, because they probably do feel called out. However, if you approach it like you're approaching it, where it's like this constant, gentle reinforcement. When that moment does happen. The response is probably all right. You're right. Sorry, I forgot. Yes, I'm gonna take this offline. Right? It's like, it's a facilitation tool. It helps people understand how to show up in the space, it makes your job easier. Because you probably don't have. Yeah, you probably don't have to deal with the like, you know, throwing paper up in the air being like, but I thought I could process this here, right? It's like, well, I've been telling you over and over again, that you can't.

Yes, so setting expectations and reinforcing them. And I love how you mentioned the word of boundaries, because it's one thing for us as the facilitators of these communities, to kind of like, you know, ensure that we're not ensure do our best anyway, you know, for everybody to be on the same page in this community. But there can be times where it feels like we're kind of like the control. As you know, I don't even like using the word control either. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, you know, we do need to include ourselves as a member of these communities. Well, we're not outside of it, we're in it. And so what does what can that look like in a healthy way? Because I know you, you have awesome soapbox moments about boundaries. So can we watch you on a soapbox?

How much time do I have to talk about boundaries?

As much as you want? Go for it.

I've been known to rant for a very long time about boundaries. Boundaries are a gift to yourself and to the people around you. As an, as an online business owner, there's a lot of pressure to like, say yes, and try new things and like, be vulnerable and be authentic. And whatever the that means right. Now if I can remember if I could curse on the show or not. So I just And, and that's actually a really, in my opinion, your horrible advice. When you tell somebody No, or when you tell somebody I think I think the no sandwich maybe came from you write where you give like a no sandwich was that from you?

I called it the yes sandwich where it's kind of like you acknowledge what they're going through, but then share your request and then round off in a way that's going to be a lot more easier for them to be agreeable to it, because I didn't, because it's kind of like, it didn't jump. I didn't jump straight to defence, because that's what happens. If we kind of get the order I was actually technically it is a no sandwich. It's not actually your sandwich, because the sandwich is actually worse inside the bread. Yes, you're correct. I just missed it.

So first line is thank you so much for reaching out, or thanks for this idea. Second line is, however, unfortunately, sadly, whatever the know is, and then you gently reinforce it in the last line and maybe give another option, right? That isn't, it's, it can be scary to do. Like when you're interfacing with clients. When you're working with a community member, it's asking for something that's just beyond your ability to deliver, it can feel really gross and bad saying no, you've probably feel worthless, or not good enough, maybe an impostor or like, maybe I'm not worth the money that I'm charging, because I'm saying no. And oh my god, maybe they won't come back and work with me. Right? And your brain just spirals. However, think about the relationships that you have, where you understand the boundaries within which they work, right? Knowing I show up in this way, and this is what this person wants for me, it you can relax into it, and you show up to do it, you interact. And then it's done. That's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful gift. Hey, we all have relationships where we feel like we give a lot more than we want. But we don't know how to lock it down. And we also have a lot of relationships where we want to give more, but the person is asking for not more. And that also like I like it when people tell me what they don't want. Yeah.

I respect that. Thank you.

Cool. I only have to do like the 10% of the 100% that I was gonna do. Awesome. You gotten up? Yep. I'm a people pleaser. So when people are like, I do not need all of that. I'm like, Oh, great. Relief.

Yes. Oh, gosh. Yeah. So

when it comes? Sorry, go ahead. No, I

was just saying Brene. Brown apparently was the one who said this clear was kind.

Yes. And something to think about coming back to the community thing where you were saying, You're a part of the community. Brene Brown just brought up this other quote, for me. So pulling it back to the community discussion. Being a member of the community, there's probably a lot of questions of, do I share too much? Do I not share? How much do I share? How much do I show up? Am I showing up too much? Am I over running all the conversations? Where do I make space for other people? And then it gets into that question of vulnerability and authenticity and like being open and like yeah, this is my messy life. So one another great Brene Brown quote is I might misquote it, but the gist is vulnerability without boundaries is manipulation. So if you show up and you're really vulnerable, but then you don't put boundaries around it. You're just kind of like what do I do with that? The other person is like, okay, What do you need? What do you need? Now? What do I do? And so being really clear of if you're being vulnerable as a facilitator, how do you follow that up with a question? How do you follow that up with it clear ask? Right? Not just my life semester date. Right? Okay.

All right. There's like, what I do with that, like, that leaves everyone in flux, like, how to anchor ourselves right now. So we need an anchor for boundary. That is why I'm here. Yes,

my life semester today, but we'd be really helpful is if someone else could do this, or my life semester. Today, I'm going to take a step back from the community today. So I can like have a nap, restore, and I'll be back tomorrow. Right? That's vulnerability with a boundary like, this is what is happening. And this is what I need in order to continue on. And as a facilitator, you can be the role model of that. Understanding how much you want other folks to share, like, if you want a really vulnerable, intimate open space, you have to be willing to get there with them, and show that it's okay. But also show where the limits of that are.

I really appreciate that you mentioned this, because when, when some folks hear that I am satisfied now in trauma sensitivity in their mind, some a lot of time they they overshare, right. And I had to be trained to know when to stop the share, of course, in the most loving way, because actually is not about whether or not someone is comfortable enough to share with me because I seem to like sometimes when I first meet people, they tell me like their deepest, darkest secrets. And I'm, and I'm like, wow, I just met you. It's because I appreciate that that's one of my skill sets, like I am able to help people feel safe enough to do so. But there is a line. And I do share this again, in my programmes where it's like, it's not about the degree of comfortability, that matters most, but it's also appreciating, sharing too much, or, you know, to a certain degree of detail can not only re traumatise you, the person who survived whatever you've been through, but also it can cause second derri re traumatization for those who are watching, who are witnessing you in this experience as well. So what you said there about knowing when to kind of like put a cap on it, and how it respects everyone in this space. So it's not, it's not like I'm saying to them, like, Oh, we don't want to hear you. It's like no, no, we want to hear you but not in a way that's going to actually harm you and potentially harm everyone else who's witnessing you right now.

Yeah, and I think one of my community campers caught it like honest, the source of nice things to say to silly people are so like, silly is the wrong term in this situation, right of the of the example that you're giving absolutely incorrect term. But as a facilitator, practising those gentle redirects. If you are facilitating a live group coaching programme, or a online programme, how do you gently redirect to keep the container of the space. So the number one secret of community building is all about boundaries. Any community you're in has a boundary, whether it's spatial, whether it's emotional, whether it's like, there's always boundaries around it, there is a purpose to why this is called a space. It's an in and out, no matter what doesn't necessarily mean exclusionary and inclusionary. But it's in and out, you're in, you're out. This is the space. This is the community, and this is what it's for. And so practising how you, as a facilitator, want to do the gentle redirects, it sounds like you have, like a lot of practice, and you have the ways that you like to pull people back into this is the space. Right? And so, things like the no sandwich that we talked about, things like, you know, I'm really grateful you brought that up. Maybe you and I can chat about that offline, but I want to make sure that there's space for everyone to share. Right. And sometimes we all we all tend to monologue. I'm monologuing right now. And how, as a facilitator, do you help them feel seen and not silenced? But also remind them there's other people in this room?

Yes. Oh, that is such a it's so nuanced. That yes, right. They're like, Oh, where do I find that balance? How do I navigate this to that point where they are seen and don't feel silenced when I put a stop to it, if they are either going over time, or they are sharing a degree of detail that can actually lead to better to harm to themselves and or others, right, so Oh gosh. And so for you as someone who actually facilitates facilitator, which is like, it's kind of like, you know, a counsellor for counsellors, right? It's like, well, that's like a new level of skill right there. So for you like, even though there's no how to, how can we like start to kind of like find indications where we're getting to that point where we need to balance between the scene and the silence? Where like, we don't find them. But there's still scene that that makes sense? Like, what do you look for when you know, you need to get to that point where something used to kind of stop and be redirected? Oh,

that would be a hard question to answer. Without a specific example?

I think

that's a good question. The Annoying answer is always It depends. And I think the question to ask yourself is yourself, the listener, not you make sure you

understand what you're comfortable with, and why you're comfortable with it, what you're willing to be uncomfortable about, but still can hold that space and what you are just actually not equipped to hold space for. Right. So as a facilitator, you're never going to be comfortable with every single conversation. There will be some conversations that's absolutely inappropriate for the space that you've designed. And that's what codes of conduct are for. So you can kind of you can start kind of imagining like who okay, this space is not for discussing this or this or this, it is specifically for business or systems or sustainable sustainably being. Oh, the sustainability incubator, you know, like it's sustainably being out there in the world, right. There are specific boundaries around that space. And so internally, as the facilitator, know what you're comfortable with, know you're uncomfortable with and know what space you cannot hold. And there's nothing wrong with not being able to hold a space. When you find a space you can't hold. Be aware of it, say it out loud. And if that's the space that you wish you were able to hold, go practice and research, read books, learn, find another coach to help you teach to teach you that right. Always be questioning why you're uncomfortable with something. And I think that's what makes you a great facilitator, because you're only coming in with your experience. There's countless other folks in your space that are coming in with all of their experiences. There is absolutely no way you can empathise with everybody. But there is a way for you to make sure that they feel seen if it's appropriate for the space.

And let that caveat that like if it's appropriate, right? Because, of course, especially because I'm an author, a recovering like what you didn't say recovering, but like, I am a people pleaser, but I am, I'm trying my best to recover from it. Because that can like just lead into territory that I'd rather not discuss right now. But I digress. It can feel so easy. It can feel easier to kind of like let go of all your boundaries to try and appease everyone, especially because you don't want any conflict to arise. But being able to stand in your presence and to know what is appropriate and what is not. And to be honest with your folks set those expectations beforehand, reinforced them has been nothing but helpful. Like there have been times when there was a very mild conflict in my communities. And because of how the expectations were set, they resolved it right then and there. Like I didn't actually need to interject at all. They they made a request respectfully the other person responded acknowledged the potential wrongdoing in the original action. And then they just resolved it. I was like, Oh, that's very cool. Okay. And so what you said earlier around, when you are facilitating you invite people to be a part of the creation process. And so they are more emotionally invested and like they have a sense of ownership that they have not. Not ownership in the sense of that, oh, this piece of the community is mine, but it's like none and I have a role here as well. I have responsibility as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know that. Okay. Now, I don't want to stop your train of thought because you mean you may balance and it may not come back. So what what are you about to say?

I was simply agreeing with you. Helping your folks find their role and sense of purpose within the greater purpose of the community is your job as the facilitator Something to bring up as we're talking about this is unequal participation is absolutely expected and Okay. And what I mean by this is, even if it's a small group six, maybe four, there's always going to be a few people that are just listening. Lurking doesn't exist, listening is an active state. And there's even if you have a group of 1000 people, you're still going to have those 50 core members that make the community come alive. Right. And I think as a facilitator, letting go of trying to get everybody to engage at the same level at all times, because just not good happen. So how can you give people permission to show up in the role that they can and want to show up? That's your job, right? The line that I just said, Where there is no lurking listening is an active state. Sometimes that's all you need to say, for the people who just want to listen and be like, you have permission to listen, if you don't want to have your video on have your video off video off does not mean unengaged. Which is a big pet peeve of mine, like sometimes, I'm super engaged, but I don't want to be on video doesn't mean I'm not listening. I'm actually listening better, because my video is off. So how do you give people permission to show up in the way that they can best show up that that is facilitation. You can't control their experiences, you can help hold them in those experiences.

I feel like this needs to be like on on a plaque somewhere that listening is an active state because there are so much are what's I don't know the word for it. But they make it sound so bad when it comes to when like, oh, there are lurkers here. It's like all they're not, it's almost as if they're not as valuable. And I'm like, I'm Excuse me. Like, I'm an amazing look, I thank you very much. And sometimes the quote unquote loggers could be like your biggest advocate and you just would never know. And so it's kind of like, it's letting go of the attachment that what you see is what's happening, there are plenty of things that are happening that you just cannot see. And that can be scary for us to let go of because like, Oh, we don't know what actually happening. But we, if we trust that it's happening, then the participation may be different from one or another. Some people like to verbal process, some prefer to process their thoughts through the written word instead. And I just felt so validated when you said oh, yeah, I like I listened best when the video is off, because I used to feel bad for having my video off. Because I used to be points out for everybody needs to have that video on and I'd be like I can but that naturally saps my capacity faster, because I just have a history of I have a history of anxiety, and it still exists within my body. And it activates much faster when I'm being seen when I actually don't want to be. So the only other space that I've ever felt like it was okay for me not to have my video on was when I was being trained in trauma sensitivity. I would say hey, I'm just having one of those days, my videos off, but I'm here I'm present. I'm going to be in the chat. And then my mentor would be like, thanks for letting us know. Like there's no law. Oh, come on, make a put on your video. It was like no, no, no, you do you. Thanks for letting us know. So there we go. It's like the request. And there was boundaries. So it was vulnerability around the fact like, Hey, I'm not at my 100% where I would wear, you know, and put my video on and you can see me and blah, blah, blah. It's like no, no, I'm here though. I still showed up anyway. I'm just not having my video on today.

So to take that a step before that, how to use a facilitator, give your folks permission to show up in that way without them having to explain it. Right. And I'm not saying that your facilitator did anything wrong at all right? But how do we give people permission to show up and the way that they do and so they can just show up? Right? And, and for me, I I'm hearing and you can stop me if I'm making this assumption. I am also a person that's like, if my video is off because I'm usually like engaged and like I'm tired to dancing around right but some days I'm having just real shit days. Oh, sorry. Can I curse on this podcast? Yep.

Now I know I just need to give it a certain rating the the E explicit rating but no worries you can swear if you want

sometimes I'm having really poopy days as my little niece would say and I just don't want it on and I feel the need to have to explain right? That I'm still here. I'm just really tired and maybe still in my pyjamas. I just like don't want to. I want to try but I can't try that hard. Right. It's a that's fine. But also when we do that maybe check ourselves right of like, Why do we feel like we have to explain

exactly. It's like what would they think of me? otherwise, so. Right, right? Yeah, I know, that's definitely the case. For me. When I explain, no one asked no one expected, like, based on what? Like how I'm receiving their body language, if they're not actually speaking, but I do is kind of like, when you say yes to something, sometimes you don't need to explain why you say yes, but why is it when it comes to the No. And, you know, asserting our boundaries there? Do we feel the need to explain that to justify it? Almost? I think that's the thing.

Right? So yeah, and it goes into that question of, of vulnerability, right? Why are you sharing in that in that moment? Right. Do you are you sharing it because you actually need support in a certain way, then say that right? Like, hey, my videos off, I'm just having a really rough day. Like, it'd be really good if, depending on the space, right, I would love like, random, hilarious. gifs just dropped in my DMs because I needed somebody to lift me up, right, like, make an ask in that space. And just a little case, study, whenever I do live workshops I give, at the beginning of every workshop, even if people have been in multiple of mine, there's always zoom rules at the top. This is how we interact with ourselves. You can have your video on or off, there's no judgement, you can come on, you can come off like you can blink in and out, it does not matter show up how you want the times where I don't say that people justify why they're going on and off video, this thing, right? So it's a real good indicator as facilitators, even if I'm a very engaging, interactive person, but how can I make sure I'm giving permission to those who don't show up like me? And be okay with that, and trust that they're getting what they want, and also giving them space to advocate for what they need. And so when we go back to that conversation about listeners, not lurkers? How can you help your listeners integrate whatever they're hearing? Is there maybe a worksheet that they need instead of thinking out loud in a chat? Right? How can you give them other tools to think about different modalities of learning and experiencing and connecting with others? How do people engage in Think and Grow in the world? And where is your own limit? For being that because you can't be everything forever? At all times? Yeah,

exactly. It definitely be a two way street, like meet them halfway, and halfway.

But if you're noticing that maybe the majority of the people in your community are like, I hate the term introverted extroverted, but like, our offline processors, right, maybe they journal maybe they write and they want to think a lot before they go pop thing something into the slack, or share something in a video call. How can you give them enough time to prepare? So they feel comfortable doing that?

Oh, yeah, I definitely attract a lot of folks who they don't always ask questions. And towards the end of the training, for example, and I am completely unattached to wherever, regardless of whether I have questions, because it doesn't say, because what I used to make it mean about me when I was attached to it having questions was like, Oh, they don't ask questions, and they weren't listening, or I didn't teach well enough, or whatever. But I know about I know this about my community is that they take time to process they can't always formulate questions on the spot, nor do they want to is like, oh, yeah, no, I'm just just processing. I'm like, You didn't need to tell you that, that. I appreciate you letting me know that. I always say, look, nothing is mandatory here. You just take what resonates? Leave behind what doesn't, right. So you don't need to explain anything to me. You don't have to force yourself to ask questions if you don't have them. But if you have them later on, you can reach me here. Right? So it's kind of like, look, this is the space now as we're in this Zoom Room. But afterwards, if it comes up later, this is how you can find me. Right? Just like alternative options.

Yeah, facilitation is an active state of listening and responding. Right. So how are you listening? Were different ways that you can listen and then where can you respond that's within your own personal capacity and boundaries? And always be aware of that? Because if you start fudging on those spaces, that's where burnout happens, and then you resent the space and then you resent the members in the space and then you blow it up in flames or just ghosted altogether. All of those have happened.

Absolutely, I definitely exhausted my own capacity before in a community that I actually just did not have the capacity and resources to continue maintaining and facilitating I'm so that's why the only community I do facilitate is, you know, in my sustainable visibility incubator programme, because there's a small amount of people in there for a reason I keep it that way, because of, I'm a highly sensitive person, as well as that naturally amplify that I see threads of emotions in other people with each other, between me and them and everything. And that's a lot to handle. So I know my capacity is very limited. But that's what I love the it's like my definition of intimacy. When it when it comes to that, and there was something else like, I'm gonna bounce to see, because I comes back into my head. Oh, there was something I was about to say. All right, questions? Nope. My bouncing doesn't work like that. There was a question that I did want to ask you mentioned briefly, and that, you know, a while back around a code of conduct, right. So what does that look like? And? Or what can that look like for us? What does it look like for you? Maybe if you want to give an example? And how can we go about creating one?

May I rant for a

second, of course, I told you, this is your time for so.

So I get really frustrated when I am invited to join an online community or a membership or whatever. And there's no code of conduct or the code of conduct is like four lines. And it's like, no judgments be nice to each other, support each other. And it's like, this is so vague. Like, does this actually mean anything and as a queer, trans person, knowing that spaces are protected is really important to me. And when I'm joining a community that maybe I know, it's going to be really good for my business, but their code of conduct is either non existent, or for super vague sentences, which to me is signifies. This is just something that you thought that you should do, and you don't actually take it seriously. And maybe you don't follow through on it. Like, that's where my brain goes. Maybe I still joined the space, but I have to take a lot more time vetting everything, right? Can I immediately start sharing? What are other people saying who is in this space? And is it safe for me to share what I need to share in order to get the support that I need? Right? How much of myself do I bring to this space, it takes me a long time to figure out my role like my avatar within that space. The flip side, if I'm invited to community, and there's this really great code of conduct, the person is like very clear of this is what the space is for I trust that they can protect the people inside of it, I go in and day one, I'm like, oh, let's up. So every single membership, live course group coaching, programme, mastermind, whatever, you need a code of conduct. And when you go about creating a code of conduct, a nice trick I like to teach my community campers is if you're trying to understand what the rules are, and how you want folks to show up in your space, and you kind of feel like at a loss, make a list of what you expect of yourself. How do you want to show up as the facilitator, as the leader? How do you expect to interact with people, and then just flip it around, because if you expect that of yourself, you have every right to expect it of the people in your space, because you know what, you're the one facilitating it. And that holds you to that standard, right. And it also holds everyone else to that standard. Another thing that I like to talk about when it comes to codes of conduct is these are not stagnant, stale documents, they should be updated. If something happens, go update it in your code of conduct, if it's not clear, and then let everyone in your space know, hey, just updated the code of conduct, go check it out. So it's like new, fresh, aligned, maybe something happens and you're like, Oh, I didn't anticipate that happening. I need to add that in. That was messy. And another final thing is, once a month, or at some regular interval, look at your code of conduct, and then go do some further education for yourself. So if you say this is a space that's welcoming of all people, regardless of race, gender, class, ableism, neurodivergent, whatever, like, choose one of those and go learn more. That's your code of conduct is your training manual for your team and for yourself.

I remember what that brain fog was, by the way. And just taking that moment there. I appreciate that the approach that you're bringing to the table for us today. It's really again, like we are a part of this. We're not separate from the spaces that we hold. We are a part of it as well. are. So being the living embodiment of your code of conduct, it gives you every right to kind of like want that from others, because you've communicated it and you live and breathe it. And yeah, I'm just thinking now they're gonna need some clarity, their code of conduct, and it definitely makes you reflect on every space you've been in as a community member. And also, if you are someone who actually has a group offer that involves the community, you know, kind of like, Oh, what did I do there? And what could I have done? What can I do now that I've done No, more than before? You know? And then,

what is your plan for failure? So, yeah, all of us, all of us. 100% Guaranteed are going to totally fall flat on our faces and mess up royally. It's just going to happen. If you're facilitating community, you're gonna mess up. You're gonna mess up real big or real small, or in lots of different ways. This is the hard truth. So how, in both your code of conduct and and how you conduct yourself, do you make plans for when that failure happens? Right, what happens when you mess up? What happens when something goes awry? What are what are the procedures to like, both help you feel safe as the facilitator and help to make sure your members know they can hold you accountable? Yes, like, there are so many spaces where I wish that there was a feedback form about the facilitators, because I'm like, this space is cool. Y'all need to do some work. There's no avenue for me to do that. Because I'm like this you've created such as cool space, but like, there's no way to give that type of feedback. And so I would encourage all of us to open ourselves up to that type of feedback of like, how am I as a facilitator? What am I missing? What can I get better at? What do you wish? I did?

Yes, all feedback forms, like I'm always asking for feedback. And it has shaped me for the better. Of course, it is things of, if there's feedback that you're like, oh, okay, I didn't realise that. That is a big deal. Sometimes it takes me like, just weeks to bounce back from feedback, depending on how important whatever they focused on was to me. And then I think, Okay, this isn't a personal jab, it is a suggestion, it is highlighting an area that is probably my blind spot, to have created this reaction from this person who has taken the time to give feedback, because I'm always like, Wait, they've taken their time to share feedback. So I should not ignore that I shouldn't you know, disregard that, because they've taken the time to try to better me in some shape or form, right. So that's super important. And by the way, that the brain fart thing that did bounce that did come back into my brain. So the bouncing just was delayed for me, when you mentioned about how we can't be everything for everyone, and how we can communicate our boundaries in such a way where it doesn't leave us feeling resentful. So I naturally have a tendency for my clients to be like, oh, yeah, you know, you can reach out to me about this or that, right. So I offer Voxer support at a certain tier, as well. And I have a Voxer etiquette document. And one of my favourite things in there is code emojis. So there are certain emojis that signal something. So the, you know, there are the emojis with two eyes, and it kind of looks to the side. Oh, yes. Yeah. So it's like the EU kind of emoji, right? So I'm, like, use this emoji, if you need me to, like, relook at something, or like, you're like, Oh, hey, I'm still waiting on this. You're looking at this. So there are signals in there. And I, you know, addressing when they can expect responses, because sometimes they can receive a response in the middle of the night. Because that's how I best don't respond best on a timeframe on a deadline. So those eyes are an indication that okay, I know you communicated to me like when you when you're likely to respond, but I do want to bump this up. So it's just kind of like some indications and signals. So it's not just it's not me getting my way is like no, no, you need to know how I respond. So you know, how you can receive that support from me. But these are the things you can tell me where I can meet you where you're at. And that has been wonderful. Like code emojis are the best, like a key for the boxer.

I absolute We love that. And it kind of brings this conversation full circle about setting up those proper expectations and boundaries. And really starting a community membership mastermind group coaching programme. I had somebody go through community camp that is building a fan base around her music, and I'm like, that's cool. It starts with a lot of introspection. It does. And it has to start outside of business revenue goals. So how do I want to show up? What is my capacity for showing up? When can I show up? In what ways can I show up? What conversations Am I able to have? What conversations Am I not able to have? And why is that? Okay? And why is that not okay? You know, like, really thinking about where you're coming from. So then you can communicate that to your people. So I was in this one community that I was like this frickin awesome. Where she was very clear and direct of when she was going to be in this phase. She's like, I will be here Tuesday and Thursday, from these hours, I will respond to almost everything, but I am not going to even look at it. Outside of those times. Nobody was annoyed at all about that, because it we knew it going in was on a sales page. It was on the onboarding, it was reiterated when we got into the space, it was like cool. I might post something Friday. She's not gonna see it until Tuesday. I'm fine with that. Because that's what she told me. And that I'm like, if more community leaders and facilitators did this, do you know how much more relaxed they probably be? Yeah. Yeah. It's an end for you know, you don't work well on, you just said like with timeframes, right. And so by telling you, folks, that you've given yourself permission to work in the best way that you can, for this person, she is very structured. And if this turned in, if that community turned into a space where she felt pulled into every single day, she wouldn't get anything else done in her business. She was like, this is structured, this is what I'm here. And this is when I'm not PCL. And I'm like, I friggin love this. Yes,

someone just owns it. And it's just very clear, because again, clear, as claimed, right. And it's kind of like, two things, I want to mention the difference between being clear and not clear. Kind, that is nice. And I also want to show or rather share a snippet of how this applies in my team culture as well. So clear, then I keep saying clear because of that, because of that quote. So what I'm hearing is, when you keep referring to Oh, if only more communities did X or community facilitators to do x, it sounds like because they want to been nice, they want it to please everyone to make sure that they all feel taken care of that because they are coming from that place of trying to be nice. There is like an absence of kindness there from the lack of clarity. That seems extremely apparent. So cleanliness, is kindness. And the reason why I wanted to talk about team culture is because communities aren't necessarily just for our clients. It's also for our team, as well. And so right now, I call her the ditto to my Pikachu. So for any Pokemon lovers out there, especially for those who watch the original Indigo League, like the first one, first season anyway, so yeah, so my team member, her name's Annie. And we have worked together for two years now at the time of this recording, but she our second year working together, so that's quite a while, right? And something that we do to kind of like, be on the same page in regards to our communication. Sometimes just like making, why did you message me at like, three in the morning, because sometimes, I'm up that late, because I have ideas. Right? And so at first, it wasn't like, clear and like, in my mind is like, Oh, you don't have to respond, but I didn't say that at the time. So she felt flustered at the beginning, where I was like, like, oh, was I meant to respond to me, like, that's not even working hours. But these days, you know, of course, we communicated a lot more. So I'm like, Okay, any, here's my idea. And I will put in brackets first for Monday, or like forever what the next working day is or for whatever o'clock like, you know, this is for you from when you start like you do not need to respond as in when, but this is that comes first. Right? And then there would be like a three minute voice note. And then I'll put a little arrow and kind of like do a breakdown because in my mind, just another part of my Voxer ticket was like invoice notes. It's actually activates mine Do it quite a lot if I don't know what the context of this voicemail is. So we put a little arrow and we do like a little bullet point of what, what this entails. And I asked this off my clients, I do this for my clients as well, and they do it on the team. And now it's kind of like, oh, yeah, all right, we've got Mike, he's got another 3am idea, and let's hear it sort of thing. And now it's because I've told her ahead of time, like, look, this is, this is a Monday thing, like if I send it on a Saturday night, for example, but I can't, I can't stifle my ideas. Otherwise, the the excitement just goes and then it's like, I'm not excited about anymore. If I feel like I have to wait for a certain timeframe. So just being aware of like, so self aware, like all this introspection that you're mentioning here, is so helpful, because it does inform the kind of codes of conduct and your boundaries that you want to communicate to others, especially for the communities you facilitate. So thank you for my little soapbox. Yeah.

I totally do the same thing. I, most of my friends don't live in the US. So we use whatsapp all the time. And it was like I've minute long audio messages, right? And if there's something that's like, it's kind of like a point up, very intense rant, you're aware. Listen, when you're able. This is not a fun one, you know, but to kind of been chatting for a while. To kind of give this like a nice little like tying up of ends, right? Why would people want to start a community in their business? Generally, it's the advice given to like scale, work with more people, sustainable, repeatable revenue, and income. All of that is great. However, that doesn't exist if you don't do and really think about all the stuff Mickey and I just talked about for the past more than an hour. Oh, gosh, I even

said to you in the greenroom. Oh, yeah, this doesn't go beyond an hour. But I see no. Yeah.

So that business goal is achievable. It just it takes I think it takes a lot more work than there's some business coaches out there that are like, oh, yeah, just start a group programme. Like that's really hard. They're not easy. It takes a very different mindset and skill set to run a group programme than it is to do one on one client projects. It's very different. It's incredibly different. And transitioning between those two spaces is also really hard. And so if you want to achieve those business goals, doing some really intentional design and thought beforehand, will get you there. Easier. Well, not necessarily easier. Community facilitation is not always easy. But you might actually achieve them and then keep achieving them and not like have one programme and it's amazing. And then you burn out. And you're like, Why did I even do this in the first place?

Oh, yeah, I've seen many people crash and then when they go to the group programme side of things when they want to, quote unquote, scale, and that's not the only way to scale by the way, just sharing now there. But yes, okay. So this conversation I have a feeling is going to lead leave all of our listeners right now singing up in or when it's like, oh, wow, like, there's so much to consider. So, as we wrap up then on, what is the one thing that we can kind of like, take away or get started with or just like, cuz? Yeah, we need to ground ourselves right now, where where can we start? I was the first question we can ask ourselves,

could be something. There's two questions. Okay. Is that okay, can I bring them of course, of

course, when my rebels like we're natural Rule Breakers. So

go ahead and address two questions. Question number one is, if you're thinking about or considering creating a community space, or maybe you already have one and you're feeling frustrated, or burnt out by it, the first question is, what makes you excited about creating a space like that? What makes me excited you answer that, then you can start designing around what makes you really excited and what like, you know, fires off all those little like nerd neurons, right? Where it's like, oh, is a really cool, like, you want to be excited about the space that you build. Instead of creating a space that maybe you've seen other spaces, like just repeating something, right, that's where a lot of exhaustion and burnout happens is, well, that person did it so I'm going to do it. Start with you excited? Yes. Step one. Question number two is, what is the transformation your folks looking for? So communities transform us, right? They're not just a place to go in and get a question answered and bounce, there's a tonne of spaces out there to do that. If you're if you've made it this far in this podcast, that's not what you're trying to create. So how are they? What is the purpose of this space for your people? What transformation? What change are they looking for? Right? What type of confidence are they trying to find? And then what you're excited about, and that transformation, that's the root of the space that you're designing. And that's a good foundation to make a space that sustainable for you, and exciting for your members, and actually helpful for your members in a lot of different ways.

I'm glad that you said two questions, because they definitely are kind of like different sides of the same coin. So yeah, that's a really that's already a lot to think about. But in the best way. And like you said, like, anyone who's actually made it this far into this podcast? Yes. You're all kind of people. So thank you so much for joining us. So Anna, for anyone else who is clearly interested in communities live to have been joined made it this far in this podcast, where can they go to learn more from you? Whether it's because I know you've got a worksheet you've got, of course community camp? Where else can we connect with you? As we can start learning this part of online business that often gets left as an afterthought? So tell us all the things where are all the links? Where can we get all of the things

ha ha. So if you are someone who's heard all these ideas, and you're like, great, I want to go start writing shit down. Because I can curse now.

We could, but I didn't communicate that. So that's my point.

Better. So if you're like, I have all these ideas, and I will start putting pen to paper. There's I have a worksheet that is kind of the first foundational things to think about when you're starting your community design. And it is at strange birds like really weird avian creatures, strange birds, dot land, coolest domain name strange birds dot land. I was really thrilled when I found it. Slash community building so strange birds that land slash community building. I'm sure we can put it in the show. Yeah,

no one needs to remember what these actual links are. But it's just what what they are leading to. That'd be great. But yes, carry on.

So it's an interactive PDF. My friend Kate designed it. It's really awesome. And you can download it and then ask me a bunch of questions. You'll have my email from there. And I am happy to answer questions via email. That's the best way. So that's the best way to get into my inbox and then start asking me stuff. You can also go to, if you go to my website, there's a whole page for community camp, that's my three day mini retreat. It's all online, it's just two and a half hours over the course of three days. Every single day, it's really fun. And we go through all of the building blocks of designing your community. And if you liked the worksheet that maybe you downloaded, there's like 12 pages of that so it's like really gets into designing like if I'm nerdy now hang out with me and community camp I get really frickin 30 So those are the places that place to chat with me is over email if you happen to find me on Instagram please be patient with direct messages you can direct message me but I might take a while to respond. It doesn't mean I didn't hear you it just means I just take a while to respond on that platform.

Yes and I love I do the same thing by like when I thought oh yeah, you can follow me on Instagram but by the way unsubscribed from the agency culture therefore that editor so thank you for sharing your boundaries right here so all of the links to your worksheets you community camp slash your website and Instagram as well. No worries everyone, I've got you covered the links will be in the show notes. So to final question and then I'll lovingly let you go for the rest of your day. Are you ready? Yes. Okay, so this this next one you said that you'd asked for the slides I'm very curious about this one that what makes you a quiet rebel

so many things I think what makes how I when I hear quiet rep rebel, it's also rep rep I can it's really hard for me to say that word.

I realised I say rebel sometimes as if it's a W at the beginning instead of an all out when rebel rebel yeah

Sometimes when I do my own trailer.

So that makes me a quiet person, I'm not ever going to try to say it again and embarrass myself. I tend to be a questioner rather than an ant server. So I like asking people questions than outright giving them a solid answer. So consider this, think about this. Really look at this avenue. Like, have you thought about this idea? Here's the it's always like, it depends what works for you. And I think that at least my experience in the online business industry in particular, can be really prospective prescriptivist. So do this than this than this than this? Yes,

it is.

I think that's a load of bullshit. So like, what is easy for you? What's fun for you? Because that's probably what you're meant to be doing?

Yeah, it is extremely prescriptive when I really think about it, and it can feel frustrating when we're more questioners and answer.

You know, outside of the, the mould, like from our conversation earlier, you feel like you have to justify it. This is why I'm doing things differently.

It's like, Yeah,

I'm doing things differently. Because I don't care. Yes. About what people have told me that I should do I quit my corporate job to have fun and be a nerd.

Yeah, yes, is different to just, it's kind of like when you tell people things as if you're asking permission versus informing them that no, I'm not asking you for permission, I'm just letting you know, this is happening. Very different energy to come from. Yes. So thank you very much for sharing your definition of what it means to be a quiet person in, in our industry can definitely resonate with you there. And our final question, because we definitely went on for longer than anticipated, and I appreciate the extra time that you've shared with us. So let's round it off with this. And I'm very curious to hear your answer, I guess. Which is, are there any weird facts or some stories about you that no one else knows on the internet that you will be open to sharing?

So practice of boundary setting, I would say no. I share exactly what I want to share when I want to share it. And it's a very deliberate, very deliberately. So again, I'm clear, I'm trans. There's only so much of myself that I am willing to put out into the world, both for my own protection. And people seem to that think that they can just ask me weird questions all the time. But I'm like, snap what I'm here for. So whatever's on the internet is exactly what I want people to know. And everything else is mine. And that's okay. I think that there's a lot of pressure for being really transparent. And there's a difference between transparent and like, absolutely no boundaries. So, yeah. If you want to learn more about my beard life, you're welcome to follow me on Instagram, and you'll get exactly what I do. I want the world to know.

I love I love following Instagram as well. And I'm very interested in seeing those tater tots that we spoke about in the greenroom as well, I just want to just take a moment to really thank you for just literally modelling what it what it can look like to just really like affirm your boundaries, because no, no, I don't want to send to myself right now. Just thank you. That's it.

Your show if you would like to share something like you should absolutely share it.

I just really appreciate it because I have had a time when a part of my identity which I very intentionally privatise and only publicise in very intentional areas. There was one time when that was exploited. And I had to communicate with someone who was just completely unaware of that. And it was very challenging conversation. And so yeah, I think that's really something wonderful to models that you don't have to share anything about yourself unless you give your own permission to and your consent to. So just thank you for answering the way you have. You're the only gas you ever have He's done that. And now I think about it shouldn't even be a question that I asked people. Because of this, maybe it's something I should share in the onboarding process like, Hey, I will ask you this question. Let me know if you'd rather not answer it. Alright. There we go that informed the process even further.

I mean, I, I think it's a, I think it's a great question. And it could be like an invitation for somebody to maybe push outside of their normal zone and be like, Oh, that was actually really fun sharing. And now like, I realised that's a part of me that deserves to have more space in the world.

Yeah, that's absolutely. So I think, much like the quiet rebels question, which is optional. But I always ask my guests ahead of time now. Do you identify with this? Because if not, then I can leave the question out. And now that final question, the weird fact from the story one, that will also be optional now. So it's like, Hey, do you want to answer this question? Because if not, that's cool. So thank you. So,

follow my weirdness. I made the gramme and I mostly just repost my local libraries Instagram feed, because I think it's funny. So if you want the library content, follow me all.

Yes. So the link will be in the show notes, folks, like anyone who wants to find our honour. So just thank you very much for your insights, your wisdom stories and your soapbox, I really appreciate your soapbox around so much, much appreciated. And, yes, this will probably not be the last time that I'll ask you to come onto the show. So just thank you very much for

being our incredible guest today. Oh, such a joy. You're such a good interviewer. This is wonderful.

Yeah. It's just, it's just pumping myself. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The quiet rebels podcast today. But any links as the mentioned in the episode, you can absolutely find them in the show notes below. And two final things before we wrap up for today. Number one, if you do like the vibe, and you're pretty new here and you're thinking about, you might want to stick around to see what else comes up here, then I totally invite you to hit the subscribe button. And number two, if you'd like to invite your friends and to help me spread the word to other quiet rebels out there who have yet to find our incredible community. And it would really help if you would leave us a review. So whichever app you're listening to this episode on, all you need to do is scroll to the bottom and there will be an option to write a review. Any words will be incredibly appreciated. So thank you so much in advance if you decide to do that. That's everything for today. So thank you again for joining us and I hope that you'll join us next time. Until then, bye for now.