Kord Okay, so this is a recording, we're going to be talking about defining empathy. It's Today is January 12. And so I'm going to start off by and you go to defining empathy.com is the website for this, it's going to be laying out my sort of basic framework of how I define empathy. And again, reflection, and they will kind of open it up to just hearing how it kind of lands with you. So, okay, so I will start with then. So for me, and I have some notes here kind of take a look to, is it for me, empathy is, is a bigger term in the sense that it's really a way of being in the world, it's more than just me empathizing with you, per, you know, to kind of directly, but it's a way of being in the world. So I'll just start with that.
Sure. So this is part of a project we're doing that's on defining empathy.com. And you're starting kind of this discussion with your definition of empathy. And what you've come to in thinking about this is that you think of empathy is really a way of being in the world.
Yeah, it's a way of being actually in relationships into the world. It's not me just being in relationship with you, you know, listening, but it's being in relationship with life in general. So it's, it's, it's a way of being open, connecting, and a sense of caring. Yeah, in the world. Yeah.
So when you say you're kind of further defining what you mean, when you say way of being. And by that you mean, not just with me, for instance, but you mean with in relationship to everything in the world, you are in relationship to everything.
And I contrast that to, as I mentioned, it's about being open, a sense of openness, a sense of sensing into the world into life, a sense of connecting, and caring, so is sort of partially some of the qualities that that empathic way of being really embodies.
And so some of the qualities that are associated with this empathic way of being are kind of an openness. I think you said a caring, maybe. Yeah, like that sort of an orientation toward the world.
And it compares to another way of being in the world, which I would say is either being indifferent, you know, being detached, being domineering, you know, authoritarian, or being judgmental. So those would be some, you know, other ways of being in the world, in contrast to this empathic way of being
and so and so you're saying there's, there's thing there's ways to better arrived understanding of the empathic way of being if you think about what it's not and when it's not as being indifferent, being like combative, being
domineering, was wanting, or trying to overpower others.
Withdrawing too much. Yeah,
judgment is a big one, you know, judging everybody. Right. Detaching. So yeah. Yeah. So, and this is really, you know, Carl Rogers wrote a paper empathic and unappreciated way of being. So I sort of see that all the things that he described in that as sort of a core aspect to to em to empathy, this empathic way of being in the world and with life.
So he, Carl Rogers wrote this paper about empathy being an unappreciated way of being and you sort of you agree with that idea. And so you're, you kind of think similarly that it should be more front and center. Yeah, yeah. And
so there's, it's like in a diamond, you know, as the empathic way of being as a diamond, there's different facets to it. And the one facet of empathy is, is sensing into the experience of someone else. So as you're, you know, listening to me, I can sense you sensing into while you're sensing into, you know, my understanding of this. So, that's one form of empathy is sensing into the experience of someone else, their feelings, thoughts, desires, whatever.
So if you think of empathy, kind of like a diamond, it becomes clear that there's different aspects to it and you're starting with this one aspect which is sensing into another person's experience their thoughts, feelings, desires, etc.
And yeah, again, it's the quality of that sensing into it's not being in contrast, it's, it's being present. It's being attentive. It's it's being open, sort of transparent in the sensing into. So that's kind of like the quality of the sensing into. Yeah,
I think you're saying that there's variations of, of this sensing into, but and there's a quality to it, that it consists of being open and transparent. And there's definitely degrees of it that people have.
And again, there's the opposite, or something that's not it's like, if you were to leave, you know, you'd be leaving. So that's, you're, you're, you're being present, you're not judging, you're just reflecting back what I'm saying, You're not saying, Hey, you're stupid, shut up, whatever. So there is that quality of how you are, you know, with me, you know, in the moment that sensing into so that's, yeah, that's the, that's part of it.
Yeah, so I think what you're saying is that, like, if I left, that would be the ultimate on empathic thing, if I walked out, but there's also variations on that, like a little bit of judgment, or even, you know, putting you down or something that would not be empathic,
it would block the empathic sort of deepening that quality. So the the other part is the self empathy. So you're looking at facets as a metaphorically as a diamond. So the self empathy is another facet. And for me, now, the self empathy is sensing into what's arising in me, you know, moment to moment arising. And that's the the self empathy going into my own sense of what's arising for me in the moment. Yeah.
So in going back to the diamond you just described sensing into now you're going to a different facet, which is sent self empathy. So rather than sensing into another, it's sensing into the self thing.
And it is that quality of moment to moment. You're sensing in moment to moment to where I am, and I'm sensing moment to moment, like, oh, it's, I'm sensing into my feelings, saying what's kind of relevant, what salient and different ideas are coming up, and I'm going with what's the most salient 10 times? So it's kind of this moment, to moment. Quality.
Yes. So you're underlining the fact that to both sensing into someone else's, and self empathy, there's a moment to moment quality to it. And you can't constantly have to kind of ask yourself, What's coming up now? What's coming up now?
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the other part, so that's sort of this direct sort of an empathy that's happening. And then the other quality is what I would call imaginative empathy, that we can imagine ourselves in any situation. So I can imagine myself as being new or as being someone else, or being you know, a beam of light, or, you know, I can imagine myself in I can sort of take a role, take on a role. And I can speak, I can say, oh, what's coming up for me? What, it's almost like a self empathy in that role. What's coming up for me, and I'm calling that imaginative empathy, imagining myself and other situations, and seeing what comes up that what feelings arise in me.
So that you're saying that they're, there's sensing into another's, their self empathy, and then there's also imaginative empathy. And you can use imaginative empathy to imagine what it's like to be me or just transpose yourself in any kind of situation, that that should be able to help you with those first two types of empathy also,
yeah, they they're all in Deol interact with each other. It's that same quality of stepping into that role. Without, you know, without judgment. In fact, you could be taking on a role with someone that's very judgmental, and you'd have to you'd have to be judgmental, so it gets a little tricky.
Yeah, but I think what we were getting to is like you there's a lot of flexibility to it. And so you can take on a number of roles, but it may be won't always help you with empathy. If you are going to step into a judgmental role. It might help you to empathize with someone that's Yeah, who's
being judgmental. So we serve a meta meta awareness where I'm in this meta awareness of role playing a judgment. So there Yeah, so it might be something that empathy that has this constant meta awareness to it.
Right so like this imaginative empathy can be used to do to roleplay, to an extent that something that might not look like empathy on the outside, like me imagining what it's like to be you judging me. And then playing that out might actually be empathic. If you look at it from an meta.
Yeah. So and then there's the, there's that aspect, then there's the relational that I'd call, it's an awareness of the quality of the relationship, instead of just being sort of individually, me and you, there's a, there's a relationship, and there's a level of empathy between us, and having a sense of that quality of the relationship and the empathy within that. And to a larger like in a family, what's the quality of empathy in the, in the relationship with the family or in the society or the culture. And so there's that sort of relational empathy, quality to.
So the fourth kind of aspect that you're touching on is, is a relational empathy, which is not, it doesn't have to do with just me or just you just one party or just another party, but it's about acknowledging the relational field, whether that be to people or Yeah, like a family, knowing the quality of empathy that's present. And the nature of it, I think,
empathic fields, a beautiful word for visitors that feel that space and having a sensitivity to that. So yeah, yeah, that really hits it. So then there's another facet is what I call empathic action. And I've seen that within conflict, mediation, people are, you know, mad at each other, they're judging each other, they get some mutual understanding. And then, instead of, you know, the sympathy, like, Oh, I'm going to help you, you know, or I'm going to feel sorry for you and solve your problem. There's a negotiation to how what we're going to do next. So it's a different quality of that helping, because it's like a negotiate like, oh, wow, about this. But when that doesn't work, how about this, and we kind of go back and forth, and we're sensitive to each other listening, in terms of coming up with sort of next steps to do together, at least I've Yeah, I see that in especially conflict mediation, where, where people negotiate their, their next steps, yes, relating.
So you're saying, in the process of, kind of negotiating, or in the process of developing an awareness of relational empathy, that it's important to take into account empathic action also. And that empathic action should be if it's highly empathic, like a result of kind of coming together cooperatively, and with mutual empathy,
and having to like mutual agreements that we owe, we agree that this is what we're going to do next. So there is that quality of an ongoing negotiated agreements going forward. And I see that different in terms of comparing, like, there's a lot of sympathy based, you know, international, you know, problem solving, we're going to go build a dam here for these people. And they don't really take into account what's going on with the community. And that's sort of the sympathy, we feel sorry for you, we're going to do this and sort of impose sort of a patronizing imposition, versus a, hey, we're going to have a dialogue here and come up with kind of like solutions, you know, back empathically with each other. So that's yeah, that's just the other facet of it.
Right? So like, I'm hearing you correctly, like it takes power dynamics into account comes at it with mutual empathy, rather than imposing one's own thoughts about what's right. Or, you know, that's complicated, but like, yeah, coming into it with a patronizing stance, and then deciding what an empathic action is isn't going to get you the same outcome.
And isn't that part you're saying about the power? It's a power with where we have sort of a shared power versus the power over approach where yes, this is how we're going to do it, you know, or you're out of here. It's like, Hey, we're going to have a dialogue to really address everyone's needs and come to some mutually agreed upon meet shared power agreement.
Yeah. So you're saying it's kind of a power with rather than power over and involves mutually negotiating one each other's needs and mutually empathizing with each other? Yeah,
yeah. And again, within the empathy circle is the container where all this can play out and sort of a minimal viable process where There's, you know, you're empathizing into my experience. Now, I'm emphasizing into my own feelings we have, we're not really doing imaginative empathy so much, we could do a roleplay, you know, where we could model that. But there is a relational empathy, you can feel the so the quality of the relationship. And we're sort of negotiating, I guess it was a negotiation of how do we, you know, create this definition process. So there's, so all the different facets sort of play out in the empathy circle.
Yeah, you're highlighting that even right here in our conversation, this can be applied, and you it's hitting all those aspects of empathy that you just described.
Yeah. So that's the core, you know, kind of in a simplistic sort of form of how I see empathy. So just curious, like, you know, how does that land with you? And, you know, yeah, whatever is up for you about it?
Well, I think that differentiating between it being a way of being versus empathy as a thing that, that you do as a therapist or mental health professional, is really important, because I think it does change, change it completely. Because if we're talking about, about a being a way of being then it makes sense to me that a lot of the concepts you're you're you're drawing on like imaginative empathy, feeling in self empathy, relational empathy, they're all like, very intuition based to me, like, and that's a radically different way of being than what I think I see most in the world, which is like this privileging of like the logic, brain, and hierarchies and all that.
So this, what empathy is a way of being you're in all those different components being part of it, you see how it's very different, it's an intuitive way of seeing has a lot of intuition to it. And it's very different from logic sort of driven, which may be is more a bit more in the therapeutic has maybe more of that. Maybe
I don't, yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not sure what what Well, the thing I was saying is that that's what you that's at least what I see in a lot of society is like, there's a lot of that, like, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, like there's a lot of that like hierarchical kind of framework that's, that's applied to every everyday interactions, like the the loudest person, you know, the kind of, I don't know. And like this kind of the left brain processes are sort of get privileged in schools and work and rewarded. So that's more what I was, like contract.
So you're contrasting and sort of with the more logical way of being in culture that that, you know, that sort of squeaky wheel gets the attention. And this logic orientation in the schools and different parts of culture, you see that as a contrast to this empathic way of being?
Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of conflating a lot of things, I think the umbrella that kind of could cover over it is sort of like this privileged privileging of a more masculine way of being in the kind of oppression of more feminine or, you know, intuitive intelligence, kind of way of being in the world. I think that's how all those things are tied together. But, um, so that, that aside, I think that I think I can see that that is how your definition would be different from mine, because I'm looking at this really little microcosm that exists within a, like a macrocosm of a society that's kind of biased and, and broken in a lot of ways. And so you're advocating for a different type of society, a different type of way of being, and so it makes sense that you would have a different framework, like, um, but for me, like I have to just think about, so yeah, that's a pause there, I guess.
Right. So you're seeing kind of two different approaches. One is a more feminine intuitive part, a wave of being that I'm sort of describing and the other is a more masculine current, maybe culture way of being and you're looking at empathy within that masculine cultural way of being, and within the context of, of the therapeutic world as sort of a piece of that community of that way of being.
Right. So like, how do you empathize with someone when you're getting? You know, I happened to me recently, like you're getting pulled into somebody is trying to pull you into a dynamic of like, perpetrator, victim dynamic. And so like, how do you empathize in the face of that? And so those are the questions that I myself am faced with, rather than how do we? How do we influence a large amount of people to see, to see and operate and maybe a different way to revamp their way of being in the world? Yeah.
So you're looking at a definition of empathy, kind of dysfunctional, supportive, helpful in the context that you're you're working in. And for example, you have real, you know, experiences, or someone's trying to pull you into a victim perpetrator sort of understanding sounds like maybe they want some agreement with you, and how do you deal with not getting pulled pulled into that. So you need some definitions, it sounds like that kind of help you navigate that, that dynamic,
or that or that they want you to beat them up, or they want to beat you up, it's like, I don't want to, you know, it's not helpful for me to get pulled into that for me or them. And so I need a handy definition that will help me to regain my balance, or do what I need to do to help that person, you know, within the confines of society. And so, I don't know, but that's where I think that terms like emotive emotion and cognitive do help, because and I don't know entirely why that is, but I think there, there's, when you're working in those sort of high stakes situations, it can feel like you it's hard to escape those victim perpetrator roles as easily, like, you don't have that structure of the empathic circle to, to lean back on. So you're stuck in a black and white way of seeing things for a moment, and you have, and then the onus is on you to try to open up space in your mind to see things in a more reflective way, so you don't get pulled into it. Yeah.
So you're needing a definition that helps you with in the sort of the therapeutic context when someone is trying to pull you into their world, maybe agree or with a victim perpetrator, you know, it'd be it'd be one or the other, just get pulled into that and you need to be able to keep yourself out of it and you need to and somehow having that definition of the affective and cognitive kind of helps with with that. So keeping yourself from getting pulled in?
Yeah, because you can sort of think to yourself, oh, wait, I've been too long in one way versus the other. I've been Yeah, I've been like very very much in in my head with this person. I've been very you know, I've really haven't felt anything strongly about this person in a long time. I must be worried about actually bringing myself into the room with some with this person or you know, so it can help to have that those two terms because it very quickly gives you a check on how balanced you are in the room and how off balance you are in that room. Yeah,
that definition of effective and cognitive it allows you to sounds like to move between the two it's like Sir to check Am I have I've been more, you know, more effective, connecting, feeling wise with the person and maybe I need to do more that or should I pull back to see it gives you kind of a connecting emotionally or pulling back sort of a ability to move between those two?
Yes, yeah. And to recalibrate oneself. Um, whereas with your terms of I think of feeling into self empathy, imaginative empathy, relational empathy, and then empathic action. I think of that more as, hopefully all therapists have that as a baseline, you know, but I and yet I don't, I don't think that's probably Probably the case given where we all exists and kind of the values of our society and the values of kind of the people in positions of authority and things like that.
So you're hoping that most therapists sort of have that mindset, that empathic way of being? Maybe they don't all, but hopefully, most do.
Yeah. So I don't think I would tear it apart, but I can't think of a way to recalibrate with your definition. Unless I go into self empathy. It's hard to figure out how do I recalibrate? How do I ensure that? How do I self reflect? To ensure that I'm showing up for this person? Like, for instance, is it that I'm feeling so much into your experience? And I haven't checked in with myself for half an hour, you know, that that might be a sign? Or am I having trouble with imaginative empathy? It's just like I can't. My mind is like, very flat, everything's very static, you know, um, so it could be that there's ways to do it that I'm just not used to, but that's my initial thoughts.
Okay. So initial thoughts are like, how does this model of empathy that I'm describing sort of work, how could they? How could it map over to, you know, what, what, how you've been doing it? And maybe, if you've been listening to the person for quite a while, it's like, may I maybe need I need some self empathy to sort of check in with how I'm doing that. That might be sort of one little piece one piece of overlap there.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what those are my first thoughts? Oh, yeah.
Wow. Yeah. Hurt. Yeah, so the part that comes to me is there's something about the empathy circle that kind of shifts the dynamic, right? It's like, hey, it's equal, like, if you're, if you're listening to someone else, it's like, I'm getting tired of just listening. And then it's like, Hey, I get to be heard here, right. So there's that sharing of it. It's just the dynamics from imagine just listening to one person for for an hour.
Yeah, something that's good about the empathy circle is that it shifts the dynamics like if you get, you know, start to feel tired listening, then it'll be your turn to speak as well. So that's like a natural equalizer.
But even know like, I've done mediation, where I listen to seven different people on some kind of a topic, and I quite enjoy it, I give them up to an hour to talk about. And all I do is empathic reflective listening. And I quite enjoy seeing if I really kind of get them and understand them.
Yeah. And you said, even though it's nice to have it turn around, like you've had sessions where you miss listened to eight people or seven people in a row, maybe an hour each time, and you kind of enjoy that seeing how well you get them.
So there's the aspect that it's good to be heard. So I have a lot of empathy circles where people are listening to me. So I get that listening, there's something about, hey, we need I need to be heard to right, I need to. So I can get it in a broader context, just as you can have your friends who are therapists, and you have your own listening sessions, like I need to get heard. Here's all the tensions and stresses are sort of building up. I need to know if you have some sense of connection to share who I am.
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're saying that it's good to have some empathy circles and friends to kind of listen to you and kind of get get get a chance to feel heard? is I think I got Yeah,
that's it. Yeah. So you can get your there's, there's I guess another part of the empathy is that we have this need to feel heard and be emphasized with least for our well being, it seems to be, you know, a healthy positive thing. So it's good if we all have that, that space.
Yeah, you're saying it's really important that we all have that space to feel heard and listened to.
And I just did a empathy circle with John Vernadsky. He's a academic out of the University of Toronto, and he has some project where he's talking about the meaning crisis in society. And we had an empathy circle. And the topic is What does reason feel like? So it was like, it was exactly kind of addressing this because it's like that sense of reason pulling yourself out. What does that sense feel like? So it's not like hey, I'm sensing I'm feeling it to you, you are feeling a sense of, of that the cognitive empathy, the cognitive part has a felt experience to it. So it was like two hours of sort of exploring that topic to. Yeah.
So you had this empathy circle with this professor from Toronto, I think, yeah, University of Toronto. Oh, no, we're Nike. And you see, the topic was What does reason feel like? And so there was a felt, I think feeling to it is what you're describing,
it was pretty weird. It's like getting into it was just a little bit mind. A high level, you know, academics, and it's like, hey, let's use these, like, there's feelings and the cognition, they're two separate things. But in the I'm collapsing, I'm saying that, well, the cognition has a felt experience. And a lot of the cognition that it sounds like you're talking about is the sense of detachment, sort of a stepping back out of, you know, creating some space. So it's, yeah,
yeah. So in doing this empathy circle, you, you realize that there is a felt experience associated with reasoning or cognition. And you're saying a lot of what maybe I'm talking about is more of a stepping back or a detachment, rather than an cognition.
Yeah, it cognition is a detaching is sort of a sort of a sense of detaching from the direct, perhaps, experience.
Yeah, you're saying cognition is a detachment from the direct effect of experience?
Yeah. And I do that, you know, I, I value that in the sense of, oh, if I can detach, I can get some space around everything. And that gives me a sense of clarity, more clarity to work through, and then I can, I've detached, you know, first sort of problem solving. So, yeah, I don't want to be like, Oh, I'm all critical about detachment. It's like, it's like, there's, you know, I do it. And there's reasons for it, there's benefits of it.
Yeah, so you're saying you can get on board with the importance of detachment, like there's, you can see the utility of it, you've done it, it's helpful.
But the thing I'm trying to do now, instead of detach is to say how it is, and I'm feeling in the moment. So I feel like I'm getting pretty pulled into your situation, I need a little bit of space or something, which would be a sense of how I would be I'm feeling a bit anxious or feeling a bit concerned, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, because I've been listening to you so long. And I need, I need to be heard, or I need a bit of distance or something, you know, where you describe, instead of just attaching you actually describe why you're wanting to withdraw would be sort of an Oh, yeah, yeah, an open
approach. So you're advocating for doing something like, just like putting a, like actually saying it out loud as it's happening. Like, I'm feeling a need to kind of, you know, back up a little bit or detach a bit because I'm a bit like, I think I'm getting kind of pulled into, you know, what you're talking about? Kind of losing some needing some space.
Yeah. And that's my ideal. I don't. It's like, it's like, I want to get better at you know, and I think it fits in with, you know, Rogers, you know, the more open the therapist, the therapist, it's like it, he says, It's like crazy things come up, and I share him, it seems like totally perfectly. It was like the right thing to say, you know, if then we didn't feel like it, you know, so
that's interesting. So he has a radical kind of capacity to be this transparent. This thing that you said is very difficult like that. You don't do it yet, but it seems like an ideal that he would even say things even if they spontaneously popped into his mind, not really knowing why. And they ended up
saying that it was like it would be amazing to him how on market was how it really shifted. It kind of moves the whole this you know, the therapeutic. And that's his, you know, congruent I think is just another word for honesty, openness or transparency.
Yeah, so like just he was amazed at how much these things would shift things for the patient just being congruent with himself which is like authentic or true to himself. He was able to help the patient
Yeah, seems very scary
scary Yeah,
I feel fully heard.
Mmm hmm. Well, here I mean, this is exciting because I do feel like I'm coming. Um, we are having an agreement here because I am dissertation I talked about affective and cognitive empathy, but I, I overlap them with self oriented empathy, which I called my emotional empathy can be more other oriented but affective or, but cognitive empathy can be more other oriented. How did I get that there was something there was a differentiation between self oriented empathy versus other oriented empathy. And self oriented empathy has is just personal distress. So that's like, what the evangelical Christians would say is, that's when they called empathy as a sin, they were talking about that self oriented empathy, where you just get like, totally overwhelmed by what the person saying and don't, you can't come out of it. And I differentiated that with other oriented empathy, which includes some ability to take space, it has warmth and emotion in it, but it also has to have in order to leave it about the other person, you have to have that ability to detach and get perspective. Otherwise, it's not other oriented anymore, it just goes back into that self oriented type of empathy. That is a sin for some people. But yeah,
so there's a way in your dissertation, I think, if I understand that, this is what my understanding is you can have your self oriented empathy, it can be going into anxiety or stress. And that, that you want to serve in other oriented empathy, where you have awareness of the other person, there's, you're not just totally losing connection with the other person going into your own sense of, you know, whatever anxieties, or whatever's going on with you. You're having an awareness of the other person as well, you're not losing that.
Yeah, but it's sort of paradoxical and counterintuitive that in order for me to keep it about you, when I'm talking to you, I actually have to detach from you from time to time, I have to be I have to, like detach here and there from what you're saying. Otherwise, if I'm trying to be all about you, and I get overwhelmed with what you're saying, and I don't detached, then it becomes all about me, and I can't come back. Do you know what I mean? So let's
try it. Okay, that when you're, you need to come back to yourself, or you need to detach, to stay present with the other person, you need to periodically detach, so that you can stay in connection with the other person to kind of address your own needs, you need to somehow address your own needs to be able to stay in connection with the other person.
Yeah, exactly. If I don't come back, if I don't detach from time to time, when I'm listening to you say, then I'm going to get lost in what you're saying. You know, I'm going to kind of fall apart and not be helpful or useful. Yeah. So if
you're, like, totally present with the other person, you're just following their, their train of thought, or what's going on for them. It's some point you kind of lose yourself, and then you can't kind of be kind of help or you're going to get lost or even your presence might get, you know, kind of messed up or something. Yeah, that's
right. So I wish I could like, I wish I had like a something I could draw it all out on but like, yeah, in order for it to be other oriented, periodic, paradoxically, I have to actually detach from you, which is weird. Normally, I think, normally, you would think that yeah,
there is a paradox and that for me to listen to you, I have to kind of withdraw to periodically as a paradox in it like, hey, it was Thrall actually fosters a sense of connection and presence with the other person.
Yeah, exactly. Right. And so, so much so that if I don't withdraw from time to time, that that it becomes very selfish, it becomes very self absorbed, and I become self oriented. becomes about me, not about you.
Hmm. Okay. So if you don't sort of detach that somehow it'll become very much the whole being present will be all about you. You need sort of attached to, to make it not all about you.
Yeah, and you're not just say one more thing, that it's almost like you're a buoy you like I think of like being like a buoy on the, you know, in the ocean as I'm listening, just like a buoy like that, you know, like very softly kind of freely playing you know, like that. sort of thing, rather than, like, you know, I don't know what the other metaphor would be, but something rigid.
Yeah. So that when you're listening, you're not like just focusing on the other person, like intensely focusing, everything is gone. It's just this buoy that's just like tipped over in one direction. But it's like, Hey, you're kind of being present with that person, you're coming back to yourself. And you're kind of gently moving between yourself and the other person. Your presence maybe is
Yeah, exactly. So that's right. I feel heard.
Yeah, well, that's what the empathy circle is about is, you know, a very clear demarcation of the shift back and forth. So I think that that is kind of a healthy, you know, everybody needs to be self connected. I use if I'm just listening I, I can Yeah, I can. I mean, it's like, in my mind, like, Oh, my God, the person's going on forever and ever will ever get a chance to speak, you know, so there's all this stuff kind of going on while I'm listening to someone else.
Yeah. So you're just saying that you can get lost if you're just listening, listening, listening, and there's a lot that's going on in the background. So it's not really realistic to be just totally just a broken buoy with laser attention all the time.
Yeah. to the other. So I think a brass Butan you're just, I just, I was looking for images of being highly focused. I've seen people like that their attention is just you look at him, it's like, you're almost like scared. These are so intense, of listening to. It's just like an example of sort of an extreme.
Your think, Gary. Yeah, like, it can be a little bit scary enough putting when somebody like laser focused, or you're thinking Rasputin, but like, people that are Yeah, it's too much. Yeah, I know that the empathy circle naturally divides that up so that there's a natural balance and flow to it, which is healthy and natural. Yeah.
So with an empathic way of being, I think it covers that, that it's like, you have a broad awareness to that there's a sense of the field, is it I see it as a broader field of awareness, like, Hey, I'm focused on where you are. But it's also you know, I'm sort of aware of what's happening here. And a larger, maybe there's something about a broader field of awareness to, versus only a highly focused awareness.
Yeah, so you're kind of relating that discussion to the idea of empathy as a way of being and that, you know, that there seems to be like a broader focus in this empathic way of being rather than in more narrow. Yeah.
And then there's the other aspect of the empathy of just being with one person, like in therapy is, you know, people need that, you know, they're, they have some kind of crisis, some kind of problem, they need that empathic presence. And then, I guess I just see that there's sort of a, a, it could be broader in the sense that, hey, you could be learning empathy skills using it in your community. So it's kind of bringing empathy from that, like this emergency repair for that person, to with a vision of bringing them into a larger empathic way of being. And I think that's actually a healthy, healthy approach versus like, hey, the, the system is all screwed up. It's domineering, patriarchal, or whatever, authoritarian, are gonna patch you up enough so we can send you back out into it. And hopefully, that kill yourself. It's like, no, it's we're gonna patch you up. How about you learning these skills, we transform society to make it more, you know, genuinely empathic. So?
Yeah. So you're saying that, um, that there should be ways in which you can go into this emergency empathy situation and get the the skills to kind of create a more empathic world that it shouldn't be that you know, that empathy only occurs within the therapy room, and then you know, that that person's only kind of patched up for that time period, and then goes back into a really, really broken kind of scary system.
Yeah. And the the part for me is when I go and do that emergency empathy, no, we're at the empathy tent or something, and I got to listen to someone because they're in distress. I'm also always holding that space as I want to move them I'm from that space to sort of this culture of empathy, you know, relational empathy, empathic way of being, it's always sort of my intention that I'm willing to listen first, you know, you maybe need it. But my intention is to let's make it mutual and make Let's spread it. So it's sort of, yeah, there's sort of that context there.
So you're, you're underlining the importance of doing their therapy or empathy, always within a larger context of moving someone back into a more empathic world, hopefully, or being able to start by giving them the empathy that they need, but then move into a mutual empathy. And then like, lastly, encourage them to do that. With others.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I guess that's a connection with the therapeutic, but then the therapeutic is so fixed in its way, it's gonna be hard to, you know, transform the whole framework, it seems to me to that larger vision. So,
yeah, you're saying it'd be hard to transform that framework into a larger vision? Yeah, I feel heard. Well, I think someone like Rogers would, would do therapy in the way that you're suggesting he was, like, more humanistic. And I think those people have a, like, humanistic therapists have a more other oriented kind of trust that everybody's moving towards their potential, everyone's realizing. And yeah, I believe that also so yeah, so
you're kind of coming from that point, the humanistic view of therapy that people are moving towards that actualizing? tendency? Yes, sir. Therapy?
Yeah. I'm trying to think if I have anything further to add on to what's already been said, um, I don't know that I. I don't know that I do right now. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. Okay.
What do you think of that, of, like, I'm thinking with the Typology, I kind of, I'm thinking, Well, maybe it's better just to have this vision, and then be, you know, going with this, approach this definition up against different definitions that are there, and then see how they integrate these, it's always hard to take everybody's definitions, and then sort of unravel them. Or I guess another way is, I'm thinking I got to really lay this out much clearer. You know, and that these sort of dialogues like this, it's giving me you know, when I can transcribe, I can kind of build on this basic, you know, definition. I don't know what he would like, what's, what do you see as an effective way forward for typology? Well,
I agree that it's hard to, I'm working from a framework I'm working on developing my ideas towards how do you develop therapists? How do you foster therapeutic empathy among therapists, that don't come to the field with the this capacity to play to reflect that without what you're already talking about? Because I'm so it's a little bit different. I don't know. It is hard for it to come together. But I think there's certain things that we both agree upon that need to be present. So I agree with a lot of your framework, I would just add that it's instead of imaginative empathy, that it feels more like the capacity to play the capacity. mentalize is a scientific word, but it just means the capacity to reflect on my own your experience and what's going on between us like sort of this, that buoy like quality, that I think we are getting it. But otherwise thing
gives that. So you're having some questions, and what the imaginative thinking maybe other terms might be more effective.
Yeah, well, or just like, I just think of like, putting like a slash by it and putting some other terms there. Because there's so much that I think relates to that imaginative empathy, like, the capacity to play the capacity to, you know, I don't know I think have the capacity to play as being very closely related to it. And that's a big thing in clinical psych. Yeah,
it's the creativity and you're being very creative, like thinking things up and trying this out. Hey, what does it feel like if there's magic in the world and you know, yes. really opens up the door to your creative thinking that the imagination, I kind of like imaginative because it has that feeling quality. And in the definitions like the ones that Bateson did, he mentioned into the definitions, he used the word imagination. So, but this could be like a topic for dialogue, right? Like, okay, imagine if empathy, let's do a deep dive in imaginative empathy, and kind of see what kind of comes up?
We'll see. Yeah, we should see when, when do I feel most imaginative in the conversation? Versus when do I feel like, you know, my imagination has shut down? Yeah. And, you know, it would be interesting to see, it's, you know, I, it's probably there's be, yeah, be interesting to see what's going on in certain moments when imagination does shut down. Because that
probably, I'm feeling that buoy going, Oh, that's imagination rise, I had the magic metaphor. And I could feel the buoy and I can feel it tilted one direction.
I know, I like that one. I like that metaphor. But it did, it does help wake your mind up a little bit like, Well, my energy is kind of dwindling, it's harder. But those types of moments do wait. they reinvest you, you know, in the in the moment. That might be part of its role, actually, to kind of propel the process forward in a way that imaginative empathy.
I would imagine if is the role, there's imagination that just comes up. But then there's sort of a role taking Imagine if empathy were in for our training, I've been thinking of adding a another session on mediation. And that would be a mediation where you is the facilitator. And the three facilitators get a chance to facilitate a circle. And it would be the mediating a family in conflict, we'd have little scripts, where the three or four others in the circle are family members who are angry about not getting enough of the inheritance or, you know, something that families really fight about. And then, then you're taking the role of being that person, and the facilitator has to kind of keep everything on track. It doesn't, they wouldn't like get to the point where they blow it up. But they could be angry, you know, like, I really deserve more, I took care of mom, you know, when she was really sick, I was the one that was there all the time, I had to take care of her I had to, you know, claim the bedpans. I deserve more of the of the inheritance, I need to be compensated for that. And then something else, no, I did this. And you know, so they'd be taking the roles. And so that's sort of the direction they say, yeah. The imagine of empathy, where you're taking the role of somebody else, and really sitting in that role. Do you
learn more about empathy when you do it that way? Like, because I've never done role plays with it with empathy. It's a
lot of fun. It's like that imagination. It's like, everybody's like laughing afterwards, you say this was I, you know, stepping into that role? I know that Lewis mentioned it too, that when we're sort of the bad guy in the circle, doing kind of nasty, disruptive, you know, challenges, it's fun, it's like, I can kind of let out another, you know, kind of a mean side of myself. And it's like, oh, it's releasing, instead of being nice. All the time.
Yeah. And so if you get the character that's, like, everyone's mad at are here, like, you know, the perpetrator, it's kind of a release to
Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can really act that role. I mean, actors always say that they, you know, enjoy, get a lot out of it. And if you take like mediation training, there's usually a 40 hour training to allow you to mediate, and the state of Texas has that. And we're just one other group earlier today. Somebody was mentioning it, that they it was almost like 50 60% of the training was role plays like that. Wow. Okay. So it's a big part of mediation training.
Do you think that do you see me because you're focusing more on the ideal, like you're focusing on the ideal society I think, and like framing the empathy, your empathy typology around that. I guess I'm not doing that as much. I'm doing that with a unlike Yeah.
Let's look at reality how things function as a cultural reality is, how do we deal how do we navigate you know that this sort of
dysfunction, like if I were to write something, it would be like Well, let's let's look at where we're at and how difficult it is for anyone to reflect or Yeah, empathize as you know, in the current state of the world, and, like, the evidence that we have of that, and then, and then we're all trying to become therapists within this world. And you know, what's getting in the way? Where do we need to get to? And you describe what we would need to get to is this ability to play reflect, to be intuitive, where I think when there's so much divisiveness, a lot of that is shuts down. But, you know, by doing empathy circles and stuff, you work against that.
Yeah. And you experience it right in the empathy circle, you're, we're experiencing sort of many moments of that empathic way of being, and, yeah, it's very inspiring. And it kind of grounds you in that in that positive energy.
It's really inspiring. Yeah. And it does teach you, it effectively teaches you Oh, there's another way to be in the world. You know, and it's, it's wild that it's so contrast it with everyday life, you know, you wish it wouldn't wasn't so contrast.
And that's, that's the whole mission, I see is to sort of spread it. And I think that the empathy, so there's two things one is the empathy circle is core practice, because it's something we can do. And it's simple. And the other is, I want the definition, that the definition is a definition based in the empathy circle. So it's, it's experiential, and we can bring people into the empathy circle, and they can experience the definition, I think that'll have a lot of power, in terms of sort of spreading the mindset, if the definition can be sort of practical, in terms of a real context, so if the definition is helping you to navigate the landscape, right, it's like, it's useful. And it's, and the current definitions are like, they're all over the place. And it's like, everybody's just, there's just so much confusion. And it's not terribly practical, either, I'm finding the general kind of definitions that are out there, they, it's not a tool you can really use. It's confusing, especially with, you know, the, all the aspects that are, you know, empathic concern empathic distress, I mean, it's like, I don't know, all these different, it's just not, it's not helpful for what would I want to do in the empathy circle. So I want a definition that's practical, helpful, and helps us navigate creating a more empathic culture? Yeah.
Yeah. I would just ask as a challenge as a way to not cut it down. But to challenge it, like, Why? Why are all those five? Are they all necessary? Could you take one out and still have an empathic world or empathic way of being? And if that's the case, then why not have four, three, you know, what makes them all necessary?
Yeah, then I don't see them as all this, I think just the empathic listening to each other is like, start kind of a minimal viable start that journey. I don't even talk about imaginative empathy or some mature, because I don't think it's necessary for just getting people into the empathy circles. So yeah, I do have it in the back of my head, you know? Yeah.
Well, it tends to, yeah. You tends to, well, that relational on imaginative empathy seem like they tend to pick up, you know, as someone engages more in the empathy circle. You know, they tend to feel more relational or imaginative empathy as time goes on. Then maybe they'll take empathic action.
Yeah. But yeah, Judith Jordan had written about that, if you know her.
Yeah, yeah. Mutual empathy. Um, yeah, I was trying to think of the model where it would be like, you know, a different components of empathy that they were all necessary. Like, I think all of yours could be necessary. I just, I'm not sure I haven't spent as much time thinking about those.
Well, the one necessary part is, is I mean, the core of the circle is everybody gets a chance to speak as well as gets hurt to their satisfaction. And yeah, so there's not even need much of a model. You don't even need a big conceptual understanding. You can just go gonna step right into it.
Yeah. So right there, the first two components are the most feeling into somebody else's. And also self empathy. I don't think you can empathize without those two for sure. Yeah, I don't think so.
Yeah, so sounds like you're trying to boil it down to the most important components. Minimal. This as I see. So the empathy circle, is this minimal viable practice? What are the minimal viable components of that?
Yeah. Because we your initial task was to was to be able to have those abstract concepts relate to something concrete in the circle, right.
So yeah, and be able to name the different parts. Yeah. Well, let's see. Next week, we have we had made an appointment with Marco Jakob, Boney, just to get his feedback. So we just did a discussion with him when he thinks about empathy. typologies years ago, I interviewed me he had talked about, we really need a typology. So I just thought to kind of reaching out to other people to just talk to him, you know, some of the academics, but what they think about what's needed for typology. And I did do, I've done two interviews, we see our meeting lists, there's
with the same person that you mentioned,
I did another one with with Ooh, that I don't haven't posted that I have to post that. I'll put there was somebody else I interviewed he I posted on my website, he wrote a paper about Edith Stein, if you're familiar with her, No, I was. She was a academic in Germany that was taught talking about empathy and more of a relational way of being and you know, to kind of actually a lot of what we're talking about with multiple points of view, you know, perspective, multiple perspective, taking the emotional effective. And then she was Jewish, was actually killed by the Nazis. And then he compared it to another academic camera, who it was that in Germany, he went along with the Nazis and his ideas were promoted in culture, because, and he was kind of funny. He was very making the case for Judas Stein and her work. And then we did a discussion about the the definition of empathy to
Yeah, that'd be interesting. I'd like to see that. That's pretty sad. Actually. Yeah. Yeah. For
so it's how ideas get brought into culture that doesn't just get killed, you know, people who advocate for. Yeah. And one more thing, I'm thinking of running for Congress. Wow. Yeah. As the empathy candidate. I'm just kind of doing my exploratory work. That's awesome. So So yeah, it would be doing empathy circles in this district as a new district formed here in California. So just been checking out on that. So that's cool. I'll know in a couple of weeks. go through with it or not?
Well, I most of my family's in California, so I'll let them know so that they can cast their vote when? Yeah, because, yeah, my whole family's there. So yeah, it's
it's Congress. It's, uh, are you familiar with the area El Cerrito Richmond Vallejo, up to Fairfield? It's an i 80. Corridor. Oh, okay. Got it. It's across from Martinus. Pittsburgh, Antiochian are along the river.
Yeah, my brother lives in Martinez.
Okay, well, you could vote then. Great.
That's awesome.
We'll see. I'm still negotiating everything. It's yeah, but I thought it would be it'd be about empathy. It'd be the empathy candidate. And that it's doing empathy circles is sort of empathy circle house parties. And the whole thing would be about everything and more empathic culture, about dialogue. And so just
kind of bring it into Congress. Yeah. And, yeah, hopefully they wouldn't
when used to be against incumbent. But still, it's kind of spreading the message. If we want to make cultural change. I think we have to get into the political, you know, have a political voice in there to bring it in. So anyway,
great idea. Yeah, no, that's a great idea. And especially to kind of spread some of these ideas that empathy is about being able to play being able to attach and detach shouldn't be intuitive and like nobody thinks about this things. There's no complexity to people's thinking about it. And so I mean, as you can see from this empathy is a sin. conversation, I think that that really misses the mark. Or maybe that's reflective of how society dismisses empathy. You know,
Obama, when he was running, he ran, you know, mentioned over and over again, he was running good as an empathy deficit. And then he did a, remember I've mentioned this, he said he was going to choose a Supreme Court justice, when that, you know, her intelligence had this stasis. And the last thing was, had a sense of empathy. Oh, yeah. And like, all hell broke loose in, like Fox News for almost two weeks. They were like saying how horrible empathy is how terrible it is. It was one commentator can't remember his name right now. It's like, empathic Fascism is coming our way. And Jeff Sessions, his video of just it was it was discussed in the Senate. I mean, they had this big discussion about empathy. And it was like, What is empathy there, you know, is that you don't feel good today, you're gonna judge this way, or you're gonna just vote, you know, give, you know, for the down and out person. You know, it's like, that's not justice. But the democratic conservatives were like, you know, really down on it. But and but the Democrats couldn't talk about, they didn't have any coherent understanding of what empathy was. And my sense is, if it conservatives would understand empathy is just mutually talking to each other, hearing each other, that they would, you know, be very supportive, or a lot of them would be very supportive of the definition that I'm using,
right? It just gets conflated down to like vulnerability and weakness very quickly, and then just totally dismissed, like, oh, that's some soft stuff. And yeah, that's not real. You know, but, yeah, we
got to deal with reality. This reality is tough. You got to, you know, be tough to do.
Great facts. Yeah.
Anyway, stuff I'm thinking about. So I got
pretty cool. Yeah. That's really cool stuff. I'm excited for you. That's really neat. Well, I look forward to continue to meet with you next week. And seems like it'd be worthwhile to go through some of those transcripts, but it is more time consuming than I thought. Yeah.
Well, I do like this, like, I'm clear. I'm now I'm going to go through the transcripts and kind of refine, you know, the, the model, and I'm seeing that maybe I just need to keep refining the framework in the model. And, you know, to and then, yeah, so that's anyway, that's kind of what I'm thinking.
Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, yeah. I mean, maybe we can help each other with our individual projects. Also, not necessarily come up with one consolidated one. But yeah, if that works for you, so that
works, too. It's like, just so it's an emergent, whatever works. You know, it's, I find it a lot of fun to, yeah, explore this together. So it's really, really enjoying it.
Yeah. And I'll see if more comes to mind in between our meetings, because sometimes that will happen, too. So yeah. The take home messages, I think are going to be illuminating. Because I think we have a really a lot of very interesting conversations, but we don't, I think they kind of get like lost. You know what I'm saying, because I feel like a lot of insights come from these conversations, but it's hard to hold on to all of them. And you've done such an awesome job putting everything on the website. So it'll just be a matter of maybe like me going through and highlighting the key some of the key things that we come to, and you know, you and whoever else wants to do it.
Yeah. But it's really how to take the highlights and kind of create some kind of easily accessible, you know, documentation for the others could follow my not my strong suit. So it's like, I'm into let's go every different direction. You know, and
all that a lot of information very quickly, which is good. Yeah. Nice to have all of it. I mean, it's pretty cool. So it's
documented. It's all there. It's all publicly available. And there is a paper trail of it all and it's transcribed. So I think that's quite powerful in and of itself, too.
Yeah, same here. So alright, well, it was great. As always, I hope you have a nice night. You too. Take care. Bye. Congrats.
