Welcome back to Decouple. Today I'm joined by returning guest Kalev Kallemets. Kalev is the co founder and CEO of Fermi energy. Kalev earned his PhD in Energy Economics from Tallinn University of Technology and has extensive private and public sector experience from an Estonian private energy company and the Ministry of Economic Affairs. Call us thank you so much for coming back on Decouple these are these are dark times you're joining us from from Tallinn. You're a lot closer to me. I'm I've got an Atlantic Ocean between myself and what's going on. In a way in my homeland. I'm half Ukrainian. I do feel a little bit hoarse from from that culture in that history. Third generation but yeah, I am half Ukrainian. So I'm watching with, with shock, from so far away. You're a lot closer to the action. I mean, first of all, let's just let's just check in. How are you doing right now?
Personally, we are, we're doing fine. And Estonia is a member of European Union and NATO from year 2004. And we feel very comfortable and secure in those positions. And Estonia is a stable, very free economy with lots of success stories, despite its small size. But indeed, what is going on 1000 kilometers south of us is a war that broke out this morning, the dictator Vladimir Putin committed the war crime by invading, unprovoked peaceful nation of Ukraine on a very extensive manner by bomb being first urban areas, military, some installations, and now from multiple firms engaging with land forces, and the fighting is going on. Many people have have died already. And the battles are raging and Ukrainians are putting up very strong resistance. And I believe it's going to be a long war.
There's obviously been a number of motivations advanced by Putin, and others, ranging from, you know, grand historic narratives to anxieties about NATO expansion, what's your what's your best understanding as to why this step has been taken?
Obviously, there are multiple considerations that are the but I think the fundamental element is that putting feels threatened that Ukraine could be successful as a democracy, a significant Slavic nation, the birthplace of Slavic countries, or of, let's say, later, but bit what became Russia. So the Kiev was the mother city of all Russian cities 1000 years ago, and he feels that that would be a fundamental, fundamental challenge to the autocracy that he has developed in Russia, the public would see that it is possible for the Slavic nations to be non corrupt, democratic, Open Media, open market societies, like normal Western societies, and he wills fundamentally statement by that, but obviously, in all, your podcast, your podcast, the energy is strong angle. And here, in this situation, the energy is a very, very, very, very strong angle. And one of the reasons why I do believe that now has led to this conflict is is that the Nord Stream two pipeline physically is completed. And Russia has leaved that by pressuring since already meet last year. Germany and Europe in general to take that new pipeline into operation, thereby it is possible to not pipe this natural gas through Ukraine anymore, but directly from the Baltic Sea. And, and thereby Ukraine is not so vital for for Russia anymore. And so that that the sole the strategic mistakes that Europe has made, specifically Germany, have led to that have contributed to that war that we are seeing now.
Are you seeing that the the kind of energy politics are affecting the the kind of European unity or the unity of the West and responding to this or and being insufficiently strong in in supporting Ukraine?
Yes, absolutely. The policy of Russia has always been, especially through sweet deals, to specific bilateral deals to specific companies, specific nation states, like Italy, Hungary, and Germany, specifically mostly Germany, specific companies like intersol Univer, providing kind of friend friend prices for by query coercing political decision making chorusing kind of lobbying, funding sponsoring, what have you, essentially corruption do achieve what it wants to do the unify European policymaking to achieve its foreign policy objectives, that it would not be opposed. And that European nations would be subservient to its foreign policy objective, which is to control. It's the make nations dependent on Russia. And so this sort of to some extent that has contributed to, to the conflict that we're seeing.
Yeah, I mean, I've heard to sort of justifications for what many of us have perceived as the rationality of Germany making itself so dependent upon Russia, particularly for its gas exports. And two of those stated rationales one was, you know, we should buy lots of Russian gas as a form of reparations for what, you know, the the war crimes that Germany committed within Russia, within eastern Europe. And the other was around, you know, if we integrate our two economies is going to make a great war between Europe or Germany and Russia far more, sort of far less likely, it's, it's turning out some turning up quite differently.
Yeah, that was the idea, one way to do the candle. So change through exchange, essentially, that idea from 1972, of the social democratic government of Willy Brandt, that they pursued built, the first through spa oil pipeline, the first gas pipeline, that it started to move from there. So it has some heritage, and I would, I'm a part chairman, myself, and, and I understand it, fully German language and also their psyche. And one element, the important element is that they're Germans are quite anti American, and also from the even from the period of before the First World War, they are also quite leftist, in their attitudes, and so these attitudes inspire a certain admiration to Russia, that was the Bolshevik socialist, ideal for much of the left of the West, and carried the torch of anti Americanism anti embrace imperialism, so to say. So that is a strong part of the of the narrative and strong reason why nuclear is perceived as American technology, which it is, and therefore it is, has been systematically opposed by the left as and the left has always had this pro Russian narrative, and reaching kind of friendship with the with the east, and not to be dependent on Americans. So this is the dualism of Germany. And that continues to display today. But I'm very pleased that at least for the new government, the green spirit, surprisingly, the new green government, on the its foreign policy is much more value based, and much more like this century thinking, and the reject the Nord Stream to on the grounds of that being, and the Yeah, democratic with anti democratic Russia. So the developments in Germany are really complex. And this war, which is so front, two rules based international order. And rules based is something that is so essential to German, let's say statehood, and how they think about international things. So this war, I follow the news from Germany and their statements, really has fundamentally upset the any pro Russian feelings that Germans might have had in their political elite, and I believe nordstream Two is there for sure. And there will be new thinking in European mainstream because of that, and I would venture into that little bit later in depth.
Yeah, we're definitely moving in that direction. Just, I guess one more question on the events of the last 12 hours. Like, are you Are you shocked by how brazen it's all been? Oh, I'm not shocked. Typically with with the military invention intervention of this size, there's there's some kind of a false flag or some kind of a justification. I mean, this was just such a naked Act Of Aggression without any kind of narrative justification that I'm used to seeing and, you know, previous interventions, whether it's the kind of incubator baby narrative around the, the invasion of Iraq, in response to its occupation of Kuwait, like there's, there's usually something more there like this. This seems this seems shocking. This seems like a real before and after moment in world history that we're seeing right now changes the rules of the game.
Absolutely, today is history. And this is absolutely changing the future of our children. And that everyone will remember today, as we remember where we were and what we did during 911. So this will shape of course, for decades, European, international politics, for sure. And we do not know the full outcome of this, either what I'm what I'm absolutely confident, absolutely confident that Ukrainians are hard fighters, they will resist, they will fight, they will happily die for their country, like they have done so since 2014. And I'm proud about them. And Russians will suffer heart and I really strongly believe also, that the West will win eventually, like we won the wars against the fascists, and the Nazis. I mean, the West in a collective, despite the beginning was a bit bumpy and hard. But I strongly believe that that Ukraine, and the West will win against Russia. And the important part of that fight is energy. And now we move forward on that topic.
Absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk about the the implications how the rules of the game have changed. You know, when I was in cop 26, speaking with Stephan Haufe the German spokesperson for their their whole delegation there. We talked a lot about, you know, the the phase that of coal and what the plan was going forward to balance out their enormous renewables fleet. And, you know, it was gas gas gas, and Nord Stream two didn't really seem to bother him that much. And they're just he didn't have another answer in terms of what was going to replace that going forward. There's talk I believe, within the German government thing was the chancellor who said that they're needing to have a quick reevaluation of their energy system, in the aftermath of this, this intervention, or even in the build up to it. What are you what are you seeing as the likely developments here, what's what's happening even as we speak,
as we speak, my compatriot Commissioner for energy in new European Commissioner Qadri Simpson, I know her well, she has been touring for two weeks, the word for LNG, and so we were we're trying to get as much LNG to Europe as possible. Unfortunately, the Germans have not built any LNG terminals on the hope of this pipeline. But the LNG import capabilities, I think, are not so bad. But what is the problem is the LNG supply itself. And so as much as I know, vast majority of cargoes are contracted already. So getting hands on new LNG requires much higher prices. And this is what we're seeing today, the prices have moved really high, almost close to record highs. So I believe that moving into next year, the reservoirs will be also record empty without rushing supplies, the week going into winter 2023 2422 23, the reservoirs will be maybe 60% or so, even lower than they were, what six months ago. So it means that the prices will remain a for gas and power will be remaining high for many, several years. And this is the analytic view as well. So and the reason is, well, Russia is essentially has abandoned the spot market. You know, they're fulfilling their long contracts but they're not supplying additional supplies to the short market. Just not selling. And so, it will be very challenging. But the best expectation is that somehow it will be possible to muddle through one important Delta there that the obvious I told him too many people in Belgium and and Poland and other places, is that it is imperative to maintain the existing nuclear units operational, I believe, also the coal units, unfortunately, must stay operational will not be phased out as in the original plans. So that's definitely disappointing in the terms of co2 emissions. Also, last year, it was very disappointing for a European Union in terms of co2 emissions, the renewable build out will proceed. But you know, this part base cannot be due to the supply chain, but also the permitting issues. And all of those objective bottlenecks, it can't be, you know, DOP may double faster, so and so the same is true with LNG, I worked in the energy business, and I know that the development cycle is just so long to have the permits in place to have specific construction projects, the construction teams, the supplies. So essentially building a new LNG train in Sabine Pass or, or anywhere in the Gulf Coast, even if you have all the permits in place takes three, three years, just construction. So and I know in Canada, there are multiple Engie LNG projects, but they're not progressing so well. Right. So that that that is the reality of energy business that lead times are very substantial.
Yeah, I mean, geopolitical considerations are going to be smashing apart against against climate goals. And that's going to catch big LNG producers like while thinking mostly of the USA here and a real conundrum, in terms of how how the Biden administration moves forward with their policy, whether keeping Europe fueled is going to trump their their carbon cutting commitments. You know, there's Roger Pilkey is iron law of electricity, which is, you know, basically that you'll cut down the last three to keep your kids warm at night. It's going to be interesting to see how this this plays out on the on the geopolitical front. What do you anticipate, do you think the US is gonna ramp up its its LNG in order to to help its you allies through this the next few years? It's already
ramped up. But the only delta is that instead of supplying No, no Chinese customers supplying our European customers, and obviously, it will make some Chinese customers unhappy. So I don't know how it is possible, but it somehow it has to work out. I know. And so, we are definitely going to see much, much more stronger geopolitical element to energy this year and coming years than we were accustomed to, let's say market. Market, the mechanisms and marketplace, especially in gas. So it's it's going to be very, very tough, ugly for Europe. Because the gas, European, its own gas production in offshore onshore, it's in decline. Answer What is reality. Also, when it comes to coal, the problem is not that we want to close coal, without the coal plants are old, and also the coal itself. I mean, the brown coal, the lignite, and also the black coal, it's out, it's just physically out. And so there's this very significant crunch, for example, in Poland, that and also in Estonia, where we have significant capacities that will be just you know, you can't make 70 year old man run the marathon every day. It's very, he will die. The same is with fossil plants. They will they are they are limited lifetime capacities.
In terms of Europe's own and endogenous energy resources. As you're saying the the offshore North Sea gas fields of the UK are running dry. The Dutch aren't pulling much more out because they're getting earthquakes now. I guess Norway still producing and the coal fields you saying are drying out and in? In Germany and Poland to a degree I mean, this is a situation of almost otter otter energy dependence. Yes, it's very bad. Is there is the fracking is still still off the cards. Do you think that's going to gonna change?
No, it's in Europe. It's we have zero fracking that is different, and also the environment, the pyramid thing. And so it also in UK, the last company had to pull the plug. So it's it's zero. It's very bad. And that's why we need to deploy small modular reactors.
Right, right. So let's, let's go there. First off, though, I don't want to speak for you. But for myself, it's it was pretty astounding, seeing a real sea change in the public discourse about about nuclear how it's discussed. You know, the prominence in the media of really sensible narratives coming out of nuclear as a result of the European energy crisis of this year prewar. It's quite incredible how much the discourse shifted. And I think, you know, due to this tragedy, it's likely that the discourse is going to further shifts, again, given what we've just described in terms of Europe's incredibly narrow options for keeping the lights on. So yeah, let's let's shift gears into what you just mentioned there, what do you see as as the prospects and and solutions beyond trying to ramp up LNG production and offload tankers? And particularly, how do we stay on track with Decarbonization?
Yeah, so I don't know about Decarbonization. But what really, indeed you I think, hinted on is the taxonomy discussion we had in Europe. And in January, indeed, the European Commission came out with its official proposal on the Taxol, it would, it's called complimentary delegated act on taxonomy of sustainable finance, where nuclear on specific conditions that there is a final repository for spent nuclear fuel by 2050. And some certain other conditions, like accidental revenue, you fuel utilization, if those technical requirements and there are, let's say, couple of pages, more technical requirements are being met, then nuclear energy, new investments, but also life extensions can be considered sustainable. And this is really important in terms of the cost of capital for new investments. And because it's so capital intensive that this really wider but it also clear political message to European community, it is obviously resisted by the stupid Austrians and then the Luxembourg, Ian's and then the Germans who consume nuclear energy, but incredibly have some kind of a mental problem, but with opposing production of nuclear energy. So, definitely real historic sea change, I think that the greenies and so whether whoever are opposing nuclear energy are Shuster kind of noise with which they are making for internal political and organizational reasons, is essentially irrelevant. So that now the only challenge and the main challenge is actual deployment. And this is a problem, as Mark Nelson has discussed the, the successes or failures of large nuclear deployments last 20 years, there are serious problems. There are serious problems with large nuclear, it's not only that, that we have do not have the experience and, and the company's little bitter, let's say not so, not so good doing their work not not so good and, and, and other other items and all the regulatory things, but I believe that there is very really important is also to understand that the plants themselves have grown so large, so complex, you know, the vvr in 1200 megawatt is 50 different buildings. So 50 different buildings and structures to build at the same time to hammer this 1200 megawatt running and license is so massive project that has to execute at everything so well in China chain reaction. So it's, it's, it's very likely that the these these do not work out. So well. If you do not have like, very continuously done that. And so, therefore, I I'm looking at also our good friends in Poland and Czech Republic and and France and in England deploying lot and preparing for large nuclear how slowly it goes. I'm, I have to say I'm disappointed. I cannot see unfortunately, how large nuclear can make a
significant dent in the decarbonisation on energy security. In such as well, I mean, it pains me to say that I really would like it to be a really would. But it is not for real practical reasons, not for political, but more so practical reasons. And one very important element about SMRs with people fail to live with understand, who are not practical in the energy is financing. You know, getting 8 billion 10 billion together is a huge monumental challenge. And so financing, 1 billion deployment projects, or 2 billion deployment projects is substantially more doable for more lean exponentially more players. And which means that the market is substantially larger. And, and and you're able to de risk the supply chain, the deployment much quicker. And time is really, really, really important in energy. Yeah, so I believe that the SMRs, we is something really serious.
Yeah, time is of the essence here. The way in which the world has changed in the last 12 hours, is very likely to lead to further divisions in the world in terms of our supply chains. You know, and the degree to which say, in Finland, it was palatable to be working on a vvr. You were suggesting to me in our pre interview that that that that could have shifted. The reality is, is that the people building nuclear plants well and on time, are all coming from countries outside of the West sort of sphere of influence. And if these technologies become polarized in terms of in terms of their supply chains, the West is going to have to sort of look within itself to find that capacity, a lot of it which has been offshored through deindustrialization. So what do you see as the prospects,
I wouldn't idealize Chinese or the Russians, I know from people working inside Russian led projects that their management is autocratic, very subservient to stop superior managers, not thinking for themselves too much, little bit overstaffing. And not being innovative and open to how to say that. So these are fundamental problems, they are very good in in stealing and repeating stuff. But, but not so good in actually getting into new environments, and also executing better and better and better every time. So I wouldn't idealize the vvr and the Rosatom supply chain. Neither the Chinese I've heard out so many practical stories on how they kind of do not pay appropriate attention to safety and quality, what would be necessary, but nevertheless, I mean, we in the West, we indeed have to deal with our own challenges. And here, indeed, looking at our financial and energy market environment, and other realities than the SMR. I strongly believe based on practical discussions and experiences and planning, I cannot see how really large nuclear can be even Competitive Play compared to SMRs. Moving forward.
Yeah, I mean, I was speaking just in reference to getting power plants on the grid, on budget and on time, that's something that that China and Russia have accomplished to a greater degree than the West in the last 20 years. Anyway, I think I think we could agree on that. But it does, it does lead us to this question of
social I mean, the turkey project is very expensive. Okay.
You've taken a great interest in my my backyard here in Ontario, where at Darlington, really the first SMR of its of its kind is in terms of this new model that we're seeing is being planned and shovels are supposed to be in the ground very soon. A lot of eyes are on this BW RX 300 That's going to be built at Darlington. So tell me why I think you know, we were trying to lead into this that you know, if the West is having to look to itself a lot more and to its own supply chains, particularly for strategic industries like energy. Why Canada, you in your opinion, is going to have a major, major role and responsibility in this. The more
I learn, the more I'm impressed about Canada that it's a little bit like a little bit like Estonia that kind of not To prominent and people are kind of a how to say not to posting and stuff like that and quietly systematically have a really good ecosystem of nuclear energy meaning that the regulators good the market is system with with this pricing mechanism in Ontario is good that the nuclear supply chain is good, you have the only heavy poaching manufacturing facility in the North America in Canada 100 kilometers from Toronto in Cambridge, you have excellent fuel supply capabilities in in the chemical and you have excellent track record in execution refurbishment buy in Darlington but but also improves and and you have multiple companies, not one single EDF but multiple companies little bit competing, which with each other in terms of who is executing better. And I really congratulate also the on the this way where there is a Bruce energy company and then OPG, which so that all the assets are on and the operation is not, you know, totally monopolized. And so I think it's a vibrant environment. And obviously, Canada is a little bit northern nation then compared to United States or many European nations. So it's not as northern latitude as Estonia, but you know, more close to the setting we have in Finland and Sweden, where energy is really needed. And and you know, this the renewable is just objectively is is not can provide the relevant quantities of energy that is needed for the population.
That's pretty, that's pretty standard. A friend of mine was pointing out that the Canadian GDP is actually larger than that of Russia. That was a shock to me. Wow. And I think, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a big shock, because I just think about, you know, what, what we're capable of doing in terms of our our industrial output? You know, maybe confining that to nuclear. It's nice to hear your rosy words. And, you know, I've I've definitely heard that assessment before the Canada, you know, is a nuclear leader and particularly in the West. And of course, I have I have high expectations. But certainly we do have as you're mentioning, a really active refurbishment industry, the largest infrastructure project in the country is the refurbishment of our candles at Darlington and Bruce. So there's something going on here. It's certainly not anything like the Russians building, you know, gigawatt scale reactors all over the world. But it's a start. And I do like the idea of us being able to play a greater role and for there being a sort of geopolitical imperative to do that, I think is going to be quite interesting.
Chris, I would make make a very strong point here. Norwegian equinor is very active player from Norway, which is 6 million nation. So smaller than Ontario, is a very active player globally in many oil and gas plays. The Vestas and and erstellt from Denmark, which is also a smaller nation than then maybe Alberta is very active labor player globally in offshore onshore wind. So, I do believe, really, what do you say that, that Canada has been kind of successful in exporting to Romania, Argentina, South Korea, to China even and some other nations, this this kind of technology, and now with deployment of first SMR that is really simple, efficient, very safe, really, based on experience. I do really strongly believe that Canada has a strong opportunity to not only to export technology and know how, but also contribute financially take the lead in some deployment projects, to accelerate Decarbonization. I was astounded to find out that Canada still imports oil from Russia and from Nigeria so you're still burning a lot of oil and gas. So you, Canada need to decarbonize, of course, as well. But you need to, you have a responsibility to export. Look, I had the responsibility from kind of, I don't know, I had the experience, I had the know how my life led to me to establish the company that I have. But so Canada, having these ecosystems, these capabilities, this is not just, you know, gift from God, in the historic situation where we find ourselves, right? Of Decarbonization, being absolute, global imperative, we have to bloody do it, and we have to do it with everything we can, and also we have to defend democracy, we have to do it, otherwise, we will be conquered. And so, you cannot therefore is not just kind of some bystander, hope it in Shire or somewhere, you are part of this world, you do have a responsibility. And therefore it is your duty and obligation to provide the world to help the world to decarbonize. It is not just empty words. But this has to mean action by Canada, Canada, as a state, Canadians as a people.
So how do you how do you anticipate folks like yourself from from you're interacting with with the Canadians or are gaining from our experience? I mean, it's optimistically that that reactor in Darlington will be on the grid in 2028, that's still quite some time away. You know, so far, there's been a lot of a lot of planning, but there's a lot of work. So can that work that's been done helped streamline the processes that you're attempting to do to, to speed up this SMR revolution in the EU? Or does that contribution come later?
I don't like fancy word like revolution, I don't like at all. No, that contribution is absolutely moving forward. And this is the right kind of mind mind frame that there has to be work. And the work is ongoing. And I'm I don't want to be specific here publicly. But we have really good partnership with multiple partners in Canada, in planning activities, and doing a lot of work this year and coming years in really learning on Canadian experience. But I would have to say, I would if I would be happy to have a discussion with your Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau, I would emphasize to him that that what I said earlier, that it is not just nice thing that is going on in Ontario. But this is really important, really important that has to should have national significance. And international significance, especially talking today, especially in the light of that the carbon emissions in 2021. Increased globally, unfortunately, not decreased, what is is supposed to be happening, and what is really on unfortunately, we are moving forward in this this century, in direction of 3.5 or so four degrees scenario, instead of two or 1.5. So things are bad, really bad. And there has to be much more stronger focus on and, and on all technologies on renewables, but also very strong focus on nuclear.
I think climate is going to drop in terms of where it's where we're, where it sits, in terms of our how we ascribe importance in the light of this these big geopolitical twists and turns, as you were saying, with the immediate needs probably being met by by fossil fuels and the need for for those industries to be further invested in and developed in order to make up for for what's being cut off from from Russia or what Russia Will Not Supply anymore. That's that's a tough pill to swallow.
Well, so and so. I yeah, I I do believe I mean, I, I as a as a responsible person, I had to look forward what is going to happen this year and next year and year after that and so forth. You In terms of my business and my country and the world, and the general environment, and it is absolutely undeniable that we're going to have very, very bad news. When it comes to forest fires. This is a certification and glacier melts, and extreme weather events this year, worse year after that worse year after that, worse year after that, the coral reefs are going to die. Ecosystems are going to be disrupted, there is going to be continuous by bad news that we can not any more influence. This is beyond our control. We have done so much sinning on this carbon front, that that, that it's there is going to be this absolutely certain that coming decades will be many, many bad news.
Okay, let me think we'll leave it there. I hate to leave it on the note of final words being bad news. So I want to give you a chance. It's been a few months, I guess, like what I'm really thinking about, again, is sort of if there's a new Iron Curtain falling to some degree, and the West is going to need to be more self reliant. By virtue of the kind of sanctions that will need to be put in place, it remains to be seen how China's gonna fall into this whether, you know, they will seize the opportunity to annex Taiwan. I mean, I'm getting into some hypotheticals here. But this could really lead to a profoundly divided world. You know, global Decarbonization would obviously be a much more successful project, if there was unprecedented cooperation and economic cooperation. The West has lost so much of its of its capacity, it's de industrialized, and it's weakened as energy systems. Ai gives me great, great pause and great concern. Thinking about, you know, how we can if especially if we're having a sort of go out on our own reindustrialize, in order to have the capacity to, you know, rapidly expand the energy systems that will need to decarbonize. That's, that's a big challenge.
Yeah, and I would continue on the realistic path that I believe that the petro autocratic Petro state and the fossil states, like Russia, like Algeria, like Kazakhstan, and Saudi Arabia, and Iran, as they will not, and also China that is reliant on coal, they will not decrease carbon emissions based or based on our hopes and expectations. Because these fossil fuels are the essence of the power vertical, that is in the autocratic nations, that controls the power of the oligarchy or the corruption, what we would like to call but essentially feudalism, and they will not give up power. And so what we have to do as West, who has developed, essentially, all the technologies that we're using today, over we have developed those technologies, including nuclear energy, over the last 100 years, we have to develop now, superior technologies that reduce costs, enhance prosperity, and are superior to fossil technologies in terms of energy density. And unfortunately, despite them, the positive impacts of renewables, the only technology that can do that, I'm sure your guests know, and listeners, wherever it is nuclear energy, but we have to do it much, much, much better and much better technologies. And I I can't see that large nuclear is going to provide that. So therefore, and I can't also see that the advanced nuclear is going to going to provide that. So we have to go for as simple and efficient SMR as possible and therefore the Darlington project is absolutely essential, together with some other SMRs that have to deploy it. Well, not providing disappointments but providing excellence providing new hope and that would be emulated deployed, financed, mass in significant numbers in democratic nations. So this century has to be rebirth of nuclear energy, or we will fail in decarbonisation, and decoupling what what your podcast is about. So, that would be my positive note and and the Canada has a strong responsibility, strong opportunity here. And I very much hope that Canadian youth and and the nature nation as such, will rise to the occasion. And we'll do what is necessary to do for all of us.
I don't think on our energy front we're used to thinking about things in such in such geopolitically significant terms. But thank you for introducing that into into the discourse. Caleb, it's a it's a pleasure to chat. Thanks again for for joining us.