Robots Make Bad Fundraisers: Maintaining the Heart in the Digital Age - Steven Shattuck

12:35AM Jan 12, 2022

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Steven Shattuck

Keywords:

bloomerang

donors

people

nonprofits

automated

love

automation

sector

organization

steven

fundraising

retention

pandemic

virtuous

necessarily

technology

gift

alzheimer

building

big

Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

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So let's get started. Becky, the day's here,

favorite human alert on the podcast, we are so excited.

Yes. Okay. Steven, like is a legend in our industry. And he's everywhere all the time,

right? He's like one of the kings of empathy. And I for those that don't know, Steven Shattuck, I mean, the proper title is that he's the chief engagement officer at Bloomerang, which we absolutely love Bloomerang. It's one of the most forward thinking tech companies serving nonprofits right now. But the thing we really like about Steven is he sees people, and he is such an empathetic leader. And the thing I personally love about him is he's a writer, we share that and he's hosting webinar series. But I want to give a little bit of background on Steven, because you have such a wealth of information and experience in the sector. Steven got his start in the nonprofit sector producing fundraising videos and digital content. And I'm not going to say how old you are, you're younger than me. But I love it was a time when I don't feel like that was really cool. And you are on the cutting edge of that which is really exciting for us for wonderful organizations like Girl Scouts, Butler University, Christian Church Disciples of Christ, I had to throw that in there because that's my denomination in the American Heart Association. He spends all this time volunteering and pouring into the sector, through just some service on so many different committees and charitable institutes. Steven, gosh, you're amazing. Welcome to the podcast. Let's talk about how to not be robots as fundraisers.

Wow, thank you so much for that kind intro. It's it's awesome to be here.

Oh, we're so excited that it's finally the day for you to come on to the podcast. But we want to know a little bit about Stephen. We know you're from Indiana. We know you are a Charlie Cardinal fan from Ball State University. But we want to know about you growing up. Tell us a little bit about your life and how philanthropy intersected and what led you to here.

Yeah, well, I am in Indiana now I'm kind of an adopted Hoosier. been here since about 2003. I think and yeah, I went to Ball State which is up in Muncie, Indiana, and any fans of the David Letterman. Late Night Show may recognize Ball State. That's where he went. Had a little bit of a roller shot there. Right. I do. Yeah. The the major I was in, actually Letterman endowed with a scholarship and it is kind of dedicated to see students, which I definitely there's, there's a plaque in in the building the Letterman building that was kind of dedicated to see students like him specifically. It's pretty funny. But yeah, the scholarship was kind of cool. Anyone in the major could do any kind of project. Some people made short films. Some people create a curriculum. I wrote a screenplay, because I was also a creative writing student as well. And yeah, I got got a scholarship for that that screenplay because I've always been a little bit of a film actually, I was a film school dropout. That's what brought me to Ball State. And it really annoys my wife because she wanted to work for fun for nonprofits. And does that was what she always says aspire to. But I kind of fell into it backwards. I ended up at a marketing agency that produce videos, because that was the kind of trade that I learned. And they just so happened to serve nonprofits. So that's where I cut my teeth, not only in video production, but also learning the ins and outs of fundraising and nonprofit storytelling. And it's funny, you mentioned that the digital stuff, but one of the early projects I did I still remember we were making DVDs and mailing them. That Butler University project you mentioned we did like a 25 minute documentary that was designed to invoke some feelings amongst older graduates. So people that had maybe gone to Butler in like the 50s and 60s. So we had a lot of cool stock photos and archival footage. And we put together this short film that we burned on DVDs. That seems sir, I feel so old. I haven't I'm only I'm 37 but, and we mailed those out that helped them hit like a $16 million capital campaign goal. It was back in like 2006 or seven. I think when we did that, yeah. All kinds of fun projects like that. And that eventually led me to Bloomerang where I met Jay Love, which was the co founder. Hi, Jay. Yeah, and he's awesome. And he was just getting Bloomerang going and we had worked together at another company. But both of us were kind of fish out Water because we weren't in the nonprofit sector for the first time in both of our careers. And he started Bloomberg and said, Hey, do you want to come over and help get it going? And that was almost 10 years ago. I think it'll be actually 10 years in this November. Then yeah, I haven't looked back. It's been really fun.

10 years, John Dewey, is that paper? What do we need to send? Yeah. Friends, remember that? Congratulations. That's a milestone.

Well, Steven, I love the perch, even though you're definitely not that type of person that's like up on this pedestal. But you're in this perch of getting to see hundreds 1000s of organizations work with all the thought leaders and create and curate content, you know, that really is relevant. And we really, especially at the beginning of the year, really geek out on what to pay attention to, because there's so many noises, there's so many people talking, what are some of the trends you're looking at, you know, what really catches your eye this year, that we should really lean into? What's your crystal ball saying?

Yeah, well, there's a lot of consolidation happening in the market. Maybe people are listening to this episode, you know, maybe they've they've used a system that has a new owner all of a sudden. So that's, that's something that we're definitely keeping an eye on. One of the things I wrote about in my book was this kind of emergence of single purpose applications, right. So things where it does one thing really well, now, what we're seeing is a lot of those companies are starting to get acquired by some of those bigger all in one systems, which, you know, years ago, I might have thought was maybe not as good as it is now. But it's actually good for those current users, because they're able to just start using that advanced functionality right away, rather than having to wait for it to be built in house, or maybe go out and buy it then have to cobble together all these different systems, which actually is now also very easy to do, because now these systems kind of integrate with each other. So we were talking before we started recording, but it's a great time, I think for for Nonprofit Professionals, because all of these awesome tools and different kinds of functionalities are really available at a at a rate and a scale that is really unprecedented, you know, the cost of these things has really come down, you know, even three to five years ago. Overall, it's I think it's a really good time for the sector, because now we can finally kind of catch up with the the for profit sector, that that seems to always be a step ahead, in having access to these these awesome technologies and features that they can, you know, bring to bear on their businesses.

To just a bigger theme that we see too, is just like really getting locked in of where the like minded missions happening. And you can just go so much further, so much faster together. And those that don't see the walls, we feel like are the ones that are succeeding across every part of this, especially the nonprofits that are looking that way to partner with business and tech and government and all that together.

I agree with all of that. And I want to give you all a shout out because you do some really incredible things that I think are really generous at Bloomerang. I mean, you were on a nightly free complimentary NCO a we're saying NCAA, does everyone know what that is? That's national Change of Address form. So I mean, and they you do a deceased suppression every day for all of your customers. And it's like, you just do that complimentary. And it's like, those things were so expensive before. But now, we've figured out how to automate them. And now you've taken the burden of the cost on and your software. And I just think that's really generous of you guys. Because healthy data is going to lead to so much more success in our organizations. And as we're building these relationships, both in person and digitally. And if you want to speak to any of that, I mean, I kick it to you. Well, I

appreciate the shout out. And yeah, we're proud of that. And you nailed it with the data hygiene, that that really is the key to all of this, right? If we're all in a digital world, and everything is moving that direction more and more. The data hygiene is is key because you know, us as consumers, people on the other end, whether they're donors or prospective donors, they're savvy, right? And they can, they're going to notice these things, right. And for nonprofits to be successful using technology, the data hygiene is is absolutely critical. And it also helps out analog things that are also still very effective, like direct mail direct mail is not going away. I'm a I'm an elder millennial, but I love direct mail. It's not going away, it's still really useful. So sending out that mail and making sure that it gets to the right address that's kind of a novel you know, concept that is still very much in play, you know, calling donors making sure that you have the right phone number and you know who you're talking to. And the added to see suppression is such an amazing stewardship opportunity. We've had customers that you know, in the course of cleaning that data have reached out to surviving relatives of deceased longtime donors and just simply said, wow, you know, we're so sorry for your loss, you know, he or she was an amazing supporter of us. And we just wanted to send our heartfelt condolences. So you know, that's an awesome stewardship opportunity beyond just not sending mail to people that aren't going to respond, and maybe, you know, making people kind of feel bad, who are who are getting that letter. And one person actually wrote back and said, Gee, I had no idea that my wife was even donating to you. And the husband said, let's keep going, I actually enclosed a check in that thank you letter to the thank you letter. So it's just if stewardship is kind of the goal of this technological Renaissance, that's where people I think, are going to be most successful. Rather than simply viewing it as it's automated, it's a time saver, and those things are important. But that should be not necessarily the end goal, that should be kind of a route to better stewardship. Because Becky, you said it before we started recording, and it was, I think it was so spot on, which is now more than ever, it's never been more important to make that personal connection, right? Because people are feeling isolated, it's been a terrible couple of years, to say the least. And nonprofits actually, I think, have an advantage to really hone in on those existing or perhaps new relationships. Because for people on the receiving end, that may be the only personal connection they receive, right? If they're truly isolated, and and not able to be out in the world, like we were two years ago. It's an amazing opportunity.

I mean, I couldn't agree more. And I feel like you're laying the case for why you would have written the book that you did, but it does feel like you know, these automations that exist, certainly allow us to scale and to guess, opportunities. But if we just end with that, all we have is a list doesn't have deceased people, it doesn't have the humanity side of what does this tell you. So you can activate quicker so you don't miss an important event or milestone. So I love that you're kind of you put your stake in the ground, you wrote a book on this very topic, that is probably my favorite title of the year ever, you know, really early in the year, that robots make bad fundraisers? I mean, what led you to want to write this book and kind of talk to us about what you're arguing in this?

Yeah, well, you You nailed it, for sure, John, which is all this technology that we can all use, that's making our lives easier, and helping us scale and helping us save time. My observation, you know, when I started writing, I think in 2019, was that if we rely on it too much to do the work for us, we will lose what I think is really magical about fundraising, which is that people give to people and people don't give to robots, or they don't give to logos, right? So as someone kind of that catbird seat, like you said, who is observing people making technology, purchasing decisions, you know, they lead with, we got to save time, we're overworked, we're underpaid, which is a really big problem in the sector, rather than saying, Okay, this technology is going to do the work for me, it should enhance the work I'm already doing. Right? It should tell me this is a donor that you should call right now. Because they send to be seem to be sending some kind of signal that maybe they could give more, or maybe they're in danger of lapsing, or it should aid you and saying, Hey, these are some donors that they're they're not giving it capacity, we need to up our asked to them, right. So it should be kind of this guide, rather than a Senate and forget it type thing where, oh, it's just going to run automated, we're just going to talk to all of our donors, and we can just sit back and do something else, right. And it's that doing something else, and I'm like, wait a minute, that's gets good use of your time to be calling donors and maybe you know, building those relationships. And I know, it's like, we have so much that we're doing and it's like any little thing that we can carve off that we don't have to worry about. I get it for sure. But the customers that use Bloomerang, specifically, and that philosophy has kind of been baked into the features we release, they're raising a lot of money, we had so many people during the pandemic that had the best year ever, in terms of fundraising. I don't say that to make anyone feel bad, because I know it was a hard year for a lot of people in fundraising. But using those tools and kind of that philosophy of, Hey, these are the people we should reach out to or this is a different way of communicating or knowing that all of our data is always up to date. That is where I think technology truly shines rather than Oh, they're just going to get thrown into the database. The database is going to automate and send five emails and because because those the five emails we decided they would get and it's like, well wait a minute. We don't necessarily know that those are the best things to say to those people right now. So that's what led me basically to write the book because the the long and short of it is technology should aid the personal outreach not replaced And my concern was that we were kind of veering and still are kind of going down that road of replacing the work we're doing rather than enhancing it.

And then you lose, you know, just the ability to humanly connect, I mean, there's a lot we can all say, there's a lot of AI out there. You know what, wherever we go, we probably saw a ton of it, all of us who are shopping online with chat bots and things like that. But it's like, you can tell when it's a real person, and when it's a bot. And so we have to figure out ways to lean into the tech that will uplift things that I would just call our little nuggets of opportunity. And so I really love that you talk about this, Steven, it's such an important part of the conversation and the cultivation process. I want to know your thoughts on what would you recommend in terms of how we're maintaining the heart of our organizations, because there's so much noise right now in the sector, and people want to use their tech well, but they also want to be a human. So what would you what kind of counsel would you give to nonprofits who are really interested in this?

Well, I think the first thing is to look at, you know, the current supporters, you know, what kind of experience are they getting? And you can go overboard with this, right? I mean, there's a lot of smart people that are talking about kind of the dangers of, of giving donors too much influence and power over the organization. And that's not necessarily what what I'm recommended when I'm saying, you know, things like stewardship, are you thanking donors? Right? That's, it seems like kind of a low bar. But a lot of times, it doesn't happen, because they give online and they get these automated messages. And we think, Oh, well, because they got that they've been thanked. Not necessarily because your point, Becky, they they know that that's, that was a robot, the experience of buying something on Amazon should not be mirrored in the the experience of donating. And a lot of times that happens, right? We're looking into your processes that are automated, can we go into those systems, and perhaps humanize them, even though they are still automated, right. And a lot of the techniques, most of the technology enables us, you can go in and customize those automated messages, and change them from a receipt to even though it's automated to something that actually does say thank you, and something that, you know, you could maybe even print and send in the mail and it not be too bad. But then beyond that, understanding that that was the lowest bar, and that you can do more, you can still send a thank you letter, right, you can still call a donor to say thank you. A lot of times, there's this feeling that because they gave in a digital channel, we have to continue communicating through a digital medium. And there is absolutely no evidence that that's the case. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary, that says the more you sort of mix in multiple channels and take kind of a multi channel approach, that that is good, because email is very easily ignored. Whereas a voicemail, or even a live pickup, if you can get it is really going to stand out even a handwritten note. So I think those kinds of things are good to look at your first time donors, this is an area where there's a lot of kind of bang for your buck, so to speak, the average retention rate for a first time donor is around like 18, or 19%. So we lose eight out of 10 of all are first time donors, I think, because very often, the barrier to entry, or the entry point I should say, is a digital channel, they get all these automated messages, and they get kind of a bad robotic experience. And it's kind of hard to move them into the second gift. But just paying attention to those people celebrating it internally, right, like, dang, we convinced a brand new stranger to give to our mission that's worth celebrating internally. And then who are they? You know, why did you give? How did you find us? Why do you care about the cause that we're in showing a little bit of curiosity about donors, I think is useful because it shows them that you care for one thing, and you may get some really useful information from them, that will help you communicate to them subsequently, because to first time donors who give online who give 20 bucks, they could be giving for very, very different reasons. One, maybe they had a relative who died of the disease that you're trying to eradicate. Whereas the other person, they gave a peer to peer gift because they saw a buddy on Facebook, but they not necessarily know you. And that's the danger of automation. Whereas an automation will communicate to those people in the exact same way. And it's like, well, wait a minute, we don't know we don't have a basis from which to create automation yet necessarily for these new donors that were kind of getting to know them and maybe calling them or asking them questions can be very useful. And then if you get some information, then maybe they will converge or diverge, I should say and go into perhaps an automated stream. So showing some curiosity maybe about your donors, especially your first time donors, really big ROI because if you get the second gift you go from 19% retention to like 60% retention? Well, that is a huge Yeah, that's a huge gap that you can you can cross and start to get a lot more higher lifetime value from your donors. That's, you know, maybe one area tactically, people could focus on.

Okay, I have to jump in here and just compliment you on what you just said, you can't just rest on the laurels of automation, it's really going to have to be about how do you embrace curiosity, and you're going to have to try some stuff. And I think the multi level and multi channel platform is so smart, because I really think it's just about testing. You know, if somebody sends a gift, and it's their first time gift, yes, they have got to be put into a welcome series, we've got to warm them. And there are ways in your welcome series, that you can be entirely human that you can do a lot of storytelling. You know, try a video, there is nothing more human than actually looking at somebody who works at the actual nonprofit, who is saying your name and thanking you, or write a handwritten card that is also disruptive. I think that there's just a ways to automate this. And when you can lean into the personal that is where humanity comes in.

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Conversely, not only can you not just rely on automation, because they may be different, but you also can't just like bludgeon them with thank yous, you know, you can go overboard with that, you know, you're not going to throw a parade and people's honors or say, you know, you're the hero, because, you know, your employees are heroes to and the people you serve or heroes. And it's like, there is a middle ground where it's like, let's start to build a relationship, right? The same that you would with maybe a new colleague, or a new member of your family, or someone that you meet and you know, struck up a conversation with, you can come on too strong, and you can miss the mark, by automating. And it's like, why am I getting this this? This isn't, this isn't why I gave or this isn't, you know, necessarily why I'm interested in the cause. So that that last start of Who are these people, you know, show some curiosity, get to know them and let that guide your efforts.

You're kind of just like uncovering this, like, I feel like it's a danger, I would even say of just things that we get automated in our life, like, yes, that's great. So we don't have to really think about it. But it's a real big danger in our nonprofits that even like our welcoming series are happening. And maybe we don't even notice we don't even know that new subscriber today. So it doesn't even give us the chance to be responsive to that. So how are we building systems that we are adding the human element into that, you know, clearly we don't have time to individually set up a queue of emails, right? It's automations. But I love that you're making this really strong case of just humanizing every aspect of it and to take it to the next level. So this is really cool. Okay, Steven, I know you spend time volunteering. This is the kind of guy Steven is he volunteers on the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, right. This isn't his spared ice. But if you don't follow that every year, they do this hugely comprehensive report. And I think this is the first time you know, many years ago and I found that report for the first time was the first time I realized how bad retention was, you know, as a kind of like a chronic condition in our industry. And it's not gotten better. You know, it's like we know the number it seems like it barely moves and shifts maybe gets getting worse overall. So I mean, you you alluded to what a first time donor retention rate is, when they get strategies to grow and, you know, think about retaining donors. We know that's a great point. So start this year with some core ways to do that.

So that's that stat is an interesting one, because more than any other stat in that report, that's the one that's been following. It was 25%, I think around 2015 or 2016. And every year, it's been falling one or two percentage points, and now it's under 20% For the first time, so for whatever reason, and it's kind of why I homed in on it in my example is, it's getting harder and harder to get a first time donor to make a second gift. There are a lot of theories on that My personal theory is most first time donors are probably giving digitally, right, because that's the lowest barrier of entry. And I think that because so much is automated, that they have a bad experience, we're not getting to know them. Some of them, you know, maybe they're getting through peer to peer, they probably aren't going to get a second get and that's okay. It's actually okay for some people not get a second gift because that they're not going to they were supporting moreall gifts. Yeah, exactly. Examples. Yeah, John, you're gonna do 5k. And I'm gonna support you know, you because we're buddies not because I, I may not even know what organization you're raising money for. And that's okay. So knowing that information, first of all, I think is kind of my first answer. Your question is like, okay, are they peer to peer donor? Or did they give directly? How do they give? Why did they give? Why do they care about you? Do they care about you? What's ascertain that information? And then we can get into the tactical stuff. That's really useful. I think the most useful data point you can know about a donor is why they give or why they care about your cause. Right? That Oh, I had a grandmother who died of Alzheimer's, or I have a nephew who has spina bifida like that, that is golden information that will help you guide your efforts, especially if you're an organization with kind of a big service offering. Like if you're a environmental organization, what are they concerned about? Is it climate change? Is it deforestation? Is it wildlife, you know, you can kind of get in on what their specific interest is. And once you know that, you know, a couple of things we have observed or studied at Bloomerang is one of the best things you can do for first time donor is call them, we've looked at our customers who were calling first time donors versus the ones who weren't. And not only did they outperform that 18 19% average donor retention rate for first time donors, but they were getting pretty close to 60% retention on those first time donors. And I think it's because it's so unexpected. And it really surprises and, and delights the donor to use a phrase that my buddy, Simon scribers says a lot surprise and delight, that's a really good way to I don't get phone calls. And if I do, they're certainly not saying thank you for donating. But not only was the retention rate higher, but they got the second gift faster. It went from like, three three fourths of a year to under 60 days, I think it was to under 60 days, they get that second gift, oh, and they gave more, they gave twice on average in that second gift than people who did give again, which is good, but weren't called phone calls. And it was turned up to 11 during the pandemic, because we couldn't do a lot of the other things. Even direct mail was greatly reduced, because there was that weird window where people were, you know, afraid of sending mail, right? Because we didn't know why. Right, exactly.

And so that was just, you know, really pumped up during the pandemic as well. And I think it was also because people were even isolated, they were lacking those personal connections. So we one thing we do in Bloomerang is we encourage hey, here's a first time donor, they gave us a phone number, right? I'm not recommend that you go and you know, find people's phone numbers or call their employer, that's all we can have a phone number, and that's an invitation, right? If somebody gives you, they give you their phone number, and it was not required in the form of the Brd or whatever. That's almost an invitation. And we did not differentiate between live pickups and voicemails voicemail, I'm, I would assume most of those went to voicemail. But even for me as a donor, you know, we give monthly to a couple organizations here in Indy. And a couple times a year, maybe three, maybe four times a year, we'll get a nice voicemail from the CEO just like hey, Steven, Hey, Leah, my wife, you know, thanks for being a monthly donor. monthly donors are awesome. I just want to make sure you, you knew that we really appreciate that ongoing support. And that is very rare, right? We're getting junk mail, junk email, robo calls. You as a nonprofit, we have an advantage as a sector. But that's not something we hear very often, right? You can stand out through those things, and it's a good use of time. And no, we're all overworked. And we're struggling just to get to the end of the day. But can we push other tasks to the side? Maybe with technology's help to free us up to do some of these perhaps even analog activities, that there's a mountain of data, not just that Bloomerang study, there's a lot of Other studies on the efficacy of phone calls, that will really produce some ROI in terms of retention rates, lifetime value. It's, it's that pendulum, it's kind of swinging back to analog in a lot of ways as a useful kind of medium for communications.

Everyone I'm going to share with you my little dream that I have, it's a little life hack for for your website. If you could add at the bottom of your giving form, you have all the detail, you want to get all the information. But if you could just add a little text box that said, Why did you give to us today? Yes, you may never you may get like 5% of people that fill that out, I am telling you, that is the biggest indicator to to have someone express why they love you. And it is such a warm, that is so easy to follow up with and say tell me that story. I want to know about that person. I want to know about that experience. That is such a simple hack that could do extraordinary things, not only for cultivation, but for your digital content, too. Do you think Stephen and this is just my dream? Do you think that this advent of building massive global digital community and building in automations, building inhuman automations is the answer to turning the tide on retention? Because I do feel like because we have historically as an industry put so much attention on that very tip of the donor pyramid. Everything else is eroding away. But what if we flip it? This is what we say when we talk about impact uprising it we're for good. It's like how do you look at the bass? How do you look at the bass and to your point, be curious, and really get to know them and figure out human ways to connect that is how you begin to turn the tide of decline and how our sector begins to thrive again, and I would love your thoughts on that.

Well, those people are under the surface on the iceberg. If you look at pandemic giving, and I know the pandemic isn't necessarily over. But if you look at you know, giving over the last 1618 months, it was those people who kind of buoyed the sector it was people giving less than $250 in terms of their gifts that had the biggest increases. They were the people who stepped up and kept people afloat really to continue on the nautical theme. I guess it wasn't the mega donors swooping in and dropping billions of dollars and kind of rescuing the sector. Now there were some big gifts and that's good for sure. But you're right, and and paying attention to those people I think will really pay dividends. You know, I think it was Jerry Panisse who did a study or he looked at his his work over the years and found that most of people believing bequests have a million dollars or more. It came from very modest givers. It wasn't necessarily you know, is that sweet old lady, that retired librarian who was giving $100 a year $50 A year, suddenly, there's a $2 million request. So this chase of like, the wealthier that tip of the iceberg, I think, is kind of a fool's errand, right? And to your first question, it depends what we're automating, like, are we automating data hygiene? And are we automating, maybe alerting a fundraiser to Hey, this is a person that they're giving to you, but they're giving way more to a charity, just like yours, maybe you should go in and go in for a boulder ask, you know, those kinds of intelligence or, or, you know, interesting moments or highlights within the database that you could sift through reports for hours and hours and never find, but I can find that, right. That's the stuff that I think that technology will, you know, save us it's not the, hey, we're going to talk to your donors for you. Don't worry about it, you can go do something else. And if that something else is your mission work, you know, that makes sense. You want to be able to your mission work. But if you're a fundraiser, and you're not necessarily on the front lines, you know, digging wells or doing research or you know, rescuing animals, right, you should be doing that work of talking to donors and getting to know them and building those relationships. Don't let a robot do that for you. So it's not I don't think it's automation. Yes, no, it's what are we automating? And why? And have we kind of thought through that strategically? Yeah.

I mean, I'm so amped by this conversation. It's like our drone orders for delivering things. This is so good. So okay, at your core, I just feel this radiating from you. Every time we talk to you, Steven, you know, you love the space. You love philanthropy, the power of it. We think that storytelling is just a powerful way things that stick with us. Can you share a story maybe that's come along your journey that has always resonated with you that really shows the power of philanthropy either for you personally or for your organization's

Yeah, well, you know, we're kind of a fundraising family you know, I mentioned before my my wife is a career fundraiser. We've as a household we've always really cared a lot about kind of elder care and Alzheimer's the grandmother example Well, I think I use was was real to our lives, my wife's grandmother died of Alzheimer's, that has always really touched us. In fact, my wife was, she worked for the Alzheimer's Association prior to that she worked at an adult day center. And there's an organization here in Indy, our, our, our local council of aging, which I had been really involved in versus a vendor, and then as a volunteer. So that's, that's kind of our thing. And research shows that households and individuals usually have kind of a pet cause, find that out, you know, there's a reason they're giving to you. And that information is so valuable. And I love your idea. Baqia, that survey on the forum. And I think a lot of folks, maybe they get discouraged when it's only 5% of respondents. That's okay, to your point, because they are self selecting into a more engaged group, just by nature of giving you that information. They're

answering the most important question about why they're in your house, why they're exactly over to your house.

That's the most rewarding thing, John to really answer. Your question is when I see not just Bloomerang customers, but but anyone who, who follows this advice, they find out that information and it just it opens the door to building that relationship. And that's when really amazing things happen. That's when the major gifts and the capital campaign contributions and the bequests, that's what really generates those things, right? It's not just gonna happen automatically. Sometimes it does. And, you know, it makes the news and it's like, Oh, dang, somebody's just going to give us a million dollars, you know, you know, out of the blue that we never heard of, it's much more likely that it's those long time donors. So understanding that that's what really is satisfactory to me when I hear those stories of a true relationship kind of blossoming, from, you know, taking that first step of just showing a little bit of curiosity

that reminds me of you, John, like, I just love people that are so curious, because they're always hungry. They're always innovating. They're always trying to make personalization better. So I think that's such a great takeaway for today. So hate to ask this question, because it means our time is nearly up. But we want to hear what your one good thing is. Stephen, what was one piece of advice, maybe a life hack? What's your one good thing you would offer to our community?

There's a lot of people like me who are flooding the airwaves, right of like, you should be calling more donors. And you should be doing this and you're not doing enough of this. It's okay. Like, and I, I don't want to add to that noise, although I just did over the next hour. So don't don't feel bad. If you're listening, if you took one nugget away of like, I'm gonna try that one thing, or maybe I'll put that on the forum. Don't feel bad that you didn't get the rest of it. Don't feel bad about all the advice out there because it's not meant to overwhelm you. It's really meant to give you that one little nugget of maybe something you can try or alter slightly and see what happens. But if you're listening, you're awesome. I know how hard it is. It's it's just it's brutal out there for a lot of folks, keep doing what you're doing, you know, stay healthy, stay positive. And don't allow yourself to to dispute so discouraged by all the things you're not doing. It's okay. And every every sector discipline, job role for profit or nonprofit, there's a long list of things that we all wish we could do. Don't feel bad. You know, can you grab maybe one thing and try it and see what happens? That's a victory in itself. So don't be so hard on yourself. I guess it's my

automated Steven that can just encourage us every day, like a little head pops up on our screen

automation can use POP, it's like the Stuart Smalley of nonprofit like, you're good enough. You're smart enough. You're okay. Yeah, you've got it.

Okay, so tell us how we can get your amazing book, please share, you know, those interested in Bloomerang to point us to all the resources and what's available through Bloomerang. But this

Yeah, the the books on Amazon robots make bad fundraisers, there's a Kindle version, there's a there's a print version, it's paperback Bloomerang, we're super easy to find what I do for them, you know, a weekly webinar, a daily blog posts, we're putting out research, we fund other people's research, you can get all that even if you're not a boomerang customer. In fact, the people that engage in that community by like a factor of 15 to one is bigger than our customer base. So it's we do that for the sector. We don't do it just for customers. Although we definitely do it for customers, but we do it for everybody as well. So that's all there, it's all free. Just go to boomerang comm and click on the Resources tab and you'll see all that good stuff.

And I would also put a plug in for Go follow Steven on LinkedIn. He has such great thought leadership on what's trending in the sector, what's happening in tech, and I just I just think that you are such a bright and positive light in the sector. And I just want to thank you and The entire Bloomerang team because we need really progressive content in our sector that continues to uplift us and elevate us. And we love linking arms with other great people who are pouring into this. So appreciate what you're doing to show up and just love spending time with you.

Yeah. Thanks for having me. You and you all are awesome. I mean, you haven't great guests. I know you probably had like 50 cancellations where you had me on but you're doing a great a great service as well.

So thanks for all you do.

It's our honor. And we love meeting with great humans and you're certainly one of those so thanks for the time today.

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