The Influencer Effect + Harnessing the Power of Pop Culture for Good - Paul Katz

8:28PM Apr 10, 2024

Speakers:

Jonathan McCoy

Jonathan McCoy

Becky Endicott

Paul Katz

Keywords:

influencer

organization

influence

paul

community

talk

campaign

world

involved

called

impact

people

music

business

podcast

work

conversation

emi records

nonprofit

stella artois

Hey, I'm Jon.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

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We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.

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So let's get started. Oh, Becky!

Oh, Jon, oh, community.

Aren't you excited?

I literally am sitting here just thinking how lucky we all are to just be sitting here in this time in the space with our guests today. He is not only an extraordinary visionary, but he is such a kind man. And so it is an absolute honor for us to introduce Paul Katz. He's the Founder and CEO of Entertain Impact, a leading social impact agency, and over the last two decades, Paul's marketing and advocacy campaigns have raised awareness support and funds for philanthropic social justice and purpose driven organizations like and hold on to your butts while I just casually dropped some of these names Rotary International, the WHO Foundation, Elma philanthropies with the support from hundreds of celebrities and influencers like Liang Liang, Kevin Bacon, John Legend, Dr. Bernice King, Lupita Nyong'o, Usher and Desmond Tutu. He is also a Grammy nominated music executive, social entrepreneur. So welcome to the We Are For Good podcast. We're little delighted. Can you tell?

Yes, well, that's very, very nice of you. And, you know, don't believe your press release necessarily. It's just that things happen.

Well, we're, we just are really in awe of what you've been able to inspire and the movements that you'd be able to create. But before we get into all of that, we just want to get to know little Paul, like, tell us about growing up in London, tell us about your interests and tell us what really awakened this desire to want to do good in the world.

As you can tell from the accent, I am a Brit, I am from London and I grew up there. I didn't really have any significant desire to do good in the world growing up. What I really had a passion for was music. I DJed all the way through high school undergraduate postgraduate law school, I was just DJ, and I wanted to get in the music business. And for the first, I think eight times before I was 16, I'd apply to EMI Records as the Beatles record company to go work there. How oh my gosh, I never worked. I didn't work with The Beatles, but I wanted to be in the music business. And so after I finished my law stuff, I went and applied for a job at EMI records. And I managed to get in with one of those questions that changes your life, which was basically its business affairs. It's kind of a legal position. And it was who's better a business affairs lawyer or an accountant. And I said it could be a garbage guy if they were sensible. And so the guy who was asking me wasn't neither of those things. He wasn't a lawyer or accountant. So I managed to get in and I got into business versus worked at EMI during when we signed Duran and Texas and those times. And then went to a very small company, which I was there for 20 years, and I'm still very connected to the people there even though the company was sold 20 years ago, called Zomba zero MBA, which was like Elvis Costello and the Boomtown Rats and looked after some of the producers that did Def Leppard and Iron Maiden, kind of all those cool bands at the time. And then came to America with Jive Records, which was part of that group, which at that point was Billy Ocean and Flock of Seagulls. And then we got really very much into rap music, A Tribe Called Quest, Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, lots of different people. And I can tell you about their journey later, but within a week, I came to America which was 85 I went to Live Aid. Live Aid was in London and was in Philly, and it was about their famine in Ethiopia. That Geldof and Vidya Calif was the leader of the Boomtown Rats have put together Bowie was Madonna, all this kind of I was a member of the audience, but we have Billy ocean was singing. And that's when it really hit me. That while I'm not going to be the guy that goes and builds houses, or because it's not my skill set, I really saw the power of music and what it could do to bring people together to have collective impacts in the sense of changing behavior, changing hearts raising money, and I thought, man, this is interesting. You know, what, what can we do here and now was really the start of my journey. So it was much later. It wasn't like, you know, my parents were involved in charitable endeavors, not as their main profession, but they were they were, they were charitable. But it was really that kind of light bulb moment that started me on my journey.

It's really an amazing story. And I just, I can't help thinking about little Becky in 1985, who had a similar awakening when she watched, and I may be getting my my years off We Are the World, and watching that live, musical gathering of all these artists, and loving that song and, but understanding that it was connected to is it USA for Africa, I can't remember exactly what the charity was, but we were. But it gave meaning to the fact that, Oh, I saw so many of my favorite artists. And I love this song. And P.S. I was like six. But I remember playing that on my record player, my little Fisher Price record player, and understanding the connection that it wasn't just a gathering that it was bigger than a gathering. And it was about these people somewhere. And it's just startling to me how music, and that can really raise the veneer of why we need to be involved in things that are bigger than us just had to make that correlation and love that you brought that up.

Yeah, yeah, We Are the World, was also very powerful. And was kind of the US version of the Live Aid song, which was a Christmas song, which is the biggest hit of the year, usually in the UK, which raise billions for Famine Relief. Yeah. Wow.

I mean, Paul, like it's, it is so fun to hear your story. And I think is like your average kid growing up in Oklahoma and starting to hear these names of how they influenced our culture of how it did shape a lot of our defining moments, and you figured out that pop culture is just could be this vehicle for social change early on. And I want to talk about now. I mean, here we are all these years later. And now you've had all these experiences to get to thread together incredible influencers, before the term influencer was even around, and causes that seem hard to wrap our heads around like you figured out a way to bring those together to make it more real for us. What is some of the things you've learned, as you've kind of done that work over the years?

I think what I've learned is, and this is over the 18 years since I started as Entertain Impact. So it's been refined and learn from experience is commit to it. In other words, we all know now influencer marketing is a is a very productive thing. It's kind of de rigueur. People use it in business the whole time, nonprofits are using it less than they should, I think it might, in my view, and it's kind of a periphery area. I think if you bring it into the mainstream in a way that still maintains resources, because I know we're all bandwidth challenged, and resource challenged, but you persist whether it can have really big upsides for the organization in terms of awareness, fundraising, and driving the mission or getting people to act to help the mission. So for me, I think the big lesson is persistence. I think persistence is a really big thing. And then the other thing is authenticity. So we know from the academic research, the McKinsey's of the world, the Manchester Business School, that with younger donors, and the average age of a donor, I think in to quote the Beatles, again, is 64, when I'm 64, the average age of a donor in Europe, you want younger donors, you want people who are more engaged and Gen Z, especially in the kind of younger millennials, they are way more likely to be influenced and to mimic a social media influencer or influence, meaning a public figure that has sway if you like and equity in the marketplace, then they are a brand advert. And so if you want to get to those folk in a way that's going to have results, influencers are really, really important. And I can get into the ROI, the return on investment and the SRI, the social return on investment later. But when you're when you're looking at these influencer campaigns, whether it's Rotary, or you had a guest who I know well, who was fantastic Netta Safar

Netta. Podcast mentioning her.

Yeah, she did a campaign for Lima, which is a Doctors Without Borders, which was just a beautiful campaign. We had done a campaign together for Lima before that. And we had used medical doctors as the influencers. It doesn't have to be Robert Downey Jr, who just won the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor. It could be medical doctors, it's who really relates to your audience. Who are they going to connect with who's going to have credibility and authenticity, commit to it, do it, be persistent with it and you will see results that will move your organization along.

Paul just speaks so calmly like, I feel like you're taking our hand and just taking the fear out of how the heck do I do this. And so I want to kind of move into this influencer effect. You mentioned academics like talk about some of those academics behind this influencer effect. And then talk about the opportunities that exist for organization social enterprise today.

I wanted to just go back a little step. So a lot of people think because I've been in the entertainment business, and I still am in terms of music and film, music for film, that it's just like, I know, everybody, I don't really, at all, I'm kind of shy on that stuff. And so I've always kind of been behind the scenes type of person. But I wrote a book called Good influence how to engage influences for purpose and profit came out about a year ago. And the reason for the book was to give confidence. And I think if you have the confidence and just go for it, if you have an organization that's credible, even if you do a cold call, or you reach out through email, and you're persistent, you will have it you will have success. And that might be local, with a local level. But you could also get an A Lister, I've had situations where many, many times I haven't known a connection or known anyone, but through research, you find out who and you've, you've reached out and I've had it, I've had significant success, I think those organizations that think I can't do it, whether it's a small arts community organization, or it's a, you know, a bigger one that really has the muscle to devote to this, you should go ahead and do it. Provided that you have the culture inside that feels comfortable with it. Unless you have everybody's buy in, then it's not going to work. So let's talk about the influencer effect. That's very simple. That's the that's really the effect that somebody has on you to make you want to do something and to go ahead and do it. And it's usually a public figure, the biggest influences, parents, caregivers, teachers, I mean, how many times have you heard an Actor, a Musician, a business leader or a politician, I want to really thank my music teacher, I wouldn't have done this .

Love when that happens.

It's true, though. It's true. They're just amazing people, teachers. Over the years, they'll influence a lot of people. But I'm interested more in public figures that can influence a greater number of people over a shorter period of time. And given the use of technology these days. It's very immediate. If you have a singer Olivia Rodriguez did this song driving driver license, which was a breakthrough song. And she then did a whole thing with President Biden at the White House about vaccinations, you know that the moment that that was going on, there was some young person in say, Richmond in California, or in Rio in Brazil that was watching that and basically, determined, okay, this makes sense because I, I trust that particular artist Olivia. And that's the influencer effect. The influencer effect is the exponential benefits you get when an influencer and a nonprofit and if you can have business involved as well. If business has the right mindset, if you get those three together with a social initiative, it's phenomenally powerful. Matt, Damon, the actor was the co-founder of water.org. And it did a campaign with Stella Artois, the accompany basically Matt Damon, did these adverts kind of commercials about Stella Artois, not to sell the beer, but to talk about the water situation, they raised $3 million. So it was fantastic. water.org is great profile, Matt Damon who founded it's involved. But and the interesting thing was for Stella Artois, the Chief Marketing Officer, they said that it made Stella Artois cool with a younger demographic. So that was so there was a business benefit. It wasn't necessarily the reason they were doing it.

Makes sense.

But there's a business. So that's a win, win win.

We all need this, you know, like we all need this in our organizations. And I think we talk a lot about the importance of building trust at scale, because trust is on the decline in all of these reports. So we're all looking for creative ways to drive that. And so Paul, I'm glad you can you teed up your book because we are just we love that it is in the marketplace. We love that you're sharing your frameworks. But I want to share a little bit about good influence. And I'm going to kick it to you to share about your framework. But you know, Paul's worked on more than 100 marketing campaigns. And through that developed this like five step sequence called DREAM for creating and executing influencer lead campaign. So this is really like a playbook because you know, in your book, you're threading a lot of case stories and little lessons and practical tips. And obviously, you've got stories for days. But I was wondering if you would take us through that DREAM framework, because I feel like this is so applicable to all organizations, as we try to take, you know, back into creating that magic of the overlap of when those when the influencer effect comes to being in our organization? How do we create that? What are those steps? Kind of walk us through that framework?

Yeah, so the the book itself, the first part is really the kind of the rationale, the academics, the influencer effect, what it is, that's just one chapter. But for me, I'm a practical person, I come out of business. So I want to know, how do you do it. And I wanted to know how to do it in a very simple, entertaining fashion. So that's my kind of five serious subjects wrapped up in entertaining packages. So the rest of the book is called, is basically the DREAM method. And each one of those stands for one particular area of how you go down the road. So there's a there's a Chinese philosopher called Laozi, who talks about the journey of 1000 miles starts with one step. That's true. But this book is the GPS that helps you get in a much better fashion that might otherwise be the case. So so what we start off with is the D for Dream, which is design your action plan? What are the goals? What what is the the budget, the activations? What are you doing? You know, it can be a campaign like the one that Meta did, it could be a campaign like the UNICEF one, in November, is it the pennies for UNICEF around Thanksgiving. Whatever the campaign is, it could be a local thing. So first of all, you have to design it, and you have to have your roadmap. The second part, which I really want to emphasize is the R is research, the more research you do on influencers with an S, the better. And I'll tell you why the S is there. If if I am an organization, and I want to reach different desired audiences, because that's what the influencer effect does. So it's better that I have several influences to do that. Because if I'm trying to get to the Latinx community, and one of them, one of the groups is a Cuban in Miami, and the other one is a Mexican family in the valley in California, they're different people, different cultures completely. So you need different influences to reach them. The other reasons to have the S is because scheduling, I may want to get an influencer to an event or on a trip, or to shoot a project, you know, trailer or something for my for my, my gala or my organization, they might be in the playoffs. So the reason is reputation. So if I have one spokesperson, and we can all think of these and I have an example in the book, but I don't really want to go into now, where somebody just does something really awful, that they regret later. And maybe they were under the influence of alcohol or they were going through a bad time. You don't want that to be the face of the organization. So if you have more influences, you are protecting yourself from reputational damage. The third part of it is to educate and reach out. So if you're a nonprofit, what you want to really do is get out to a lot of people you want to say you want to get eight people you're probably going to reach out to 100 if it's a social impact campaign, less. Social impact is to get people to post is easier than getting someone to go from where I am in New York to say Lagos in Nigeria to do a trip. But people will do it if it's something that they believe in. So reaching out is really important and very, very, very simple letter we get bombarded. When I say less I mean email, I should say we get bombarded with so many emails a day. Influencers get bombarded with 40-50 requests a week sometimes if you're if you're a Beyonce, you're getting 4050 requests a day. They Beyonce has a Ivy McGregor, who's fantastic, who's a philanthropy person, by sending that email out it's the start of a conversation to get them interested it's not meant to be the whole conversation short sweet, maybe a social media kit if you want them just to do social media posts and and just follow up the persistence comes into it again, you may not hear doesn't mean that they're ignoring you. It just means their publicity person, their manager, not their agent, never go to the agent. The agent is there for money. It's their job, but it's not their job to do philanthropy. Some are different but I'm just saying generally. So that's that's the third the third thing, but the good thing about reaching out is even if you get a no. And there's, there's a no. A Yes. And you're sharing if it's a yes, and there's the don't hear, the don't hear are always the ones that are problematic, because you're not quite sure what to do. But you persist. And eventually at some point, you say, if you don't get a yes, you say, well, we'll move on. But say you go out to go out to say 50 different influencers, and all the influencers, I work with the traditional influencers, and most of the social media influencers do not get paid, I think that's really important is to say, because the research is so good. You're getting you're getting into into their passion projects, and they don't get paid social media creators, if they create something for the project will get paid. Although the the nonprofit rate as we call it is much less. A is the activation. What are you doing with them? Is it a gala? Appearance? Is it a video? Is it a social media post? Obviously, there's more likelihood with a social media post, and getting them to go to to India for a polio campaign like Archie Punjabi the actress did. And then having a media as a result of it is the tree in the forest. If it falls, no one hears it. The Zen the Zen one problem is Did it fall? In my world? It didn't, that absolutely didn't unless people know about it, because you want to get the word out about your organization, working with the platform of the influencer. So that's how you raise your money, you raise awareness, etc. So you really need to make sure that you have really great PR internally, externally, as well as the influencers platforms which can reach literally millions of millions of people. And then the last one is measurement. So why are we doing this? I'm assuming a lot of your audience me for sure and you for sure, are doing this, because we want to move the needle, we want to make a difference in life in people's lives and the environment, whichever is the cause we're interested in. And as a consequence, measurement is really important. So measurement is going to have a couple of facets that I mentioned earlier. One is return on investment, your chief financial officer, your the folks that are dealing with development slash donations, fundraising, they're going to want to know that the money that they got within the organization is being well spent. And we found that the average return on the dollar spent is basically about one to five to one to eight when using influencers, it can actually be a lot more if you take in the fact that not paid. You can also look at it with proxies, you can look at it say, Well, if I had done an advertising campaign at a discounted rate, not the card rate, then the return would be much, much, much more. But I but I kind of find it, you have to be careful not to be to pump yourself up too much with these metrics, because the organization may have never done an advertising campaign. You know, you want to under promise and over deliver really and I think I think influencer marketing and cohorts can definitely definitely do that. But then there's the real impact, which is the impact of your organization. And that's that's what we're all here for. There's the impact, which I call kind of the interim impact or which which is did we get more followers? Did our website grow, you know, visits? And then the real impact is did you move the needle did did it did it make a difference? And we've seen four or five times more donations in the exact same period come in through influences. So you get financial, you get behavior change, that then will fall into policies, policy change. And so you can see real impact.

It's so helpful. And I just want to lift a couple things that I heard that I don't want anybody to miss. And they've been said on this podcast many, many times. And by many people like Paul like Netta, and people that are working at this intersection of impact and influence, and it's are you starting with your values? Who are you and does the influencer share your values? I mean, we can't just lop everything on the influencer and hope for the best we have somebody in this community that got a retweet from Selena Gomez and only got eight followers out of it. And then we have another nonprofit who worked with a local influencer and got 10,000 Instagram followers overnight. So it's not something that just happens. We've got to work on this. But you mentioned voting rights. And this is such a moment in time, especially in the American democracy. And you have this really interesting take on building local networks of impact. And I just think that these same concepts can be replicated locally and communities like during this election year to activate for collective impact and we really want to talk about this and community and we really want everyone listening to think about how do we activate around that. So Paul, tell us a little bit about your work on voting rights and how people can apply these concepts to build impactful campaigns and movements like in their hometowns?

Well, yes, this this just happened purely, very organically with me in 20, in February 20, I got COVID, which turned into longhaul COVID, which I'm doing much, much better with now. And but when I was kind of coming up for air, I saw that the US under President trumpet had withdrawn from the World Health Organization, I've worked on the polio campaign. And I thought to myself, This isn't right. And I have friends of mine who really wanted to get involved, but didn't know how to really get involved in the political process. And so I started a website where we looked at voter turnout and voter suppression, we looked at 40 different organizations, we chose three like Michelle Obama's, or Stacey Abrams, etc. And then and then we will make kind of introductions. Now that I knew them again, it was cold, cold calling, it wasn't like I knew them at all. And so that then took off and we got funding. And then we worked in Georgia, working with what they call returning citizens, people who've been incarcerated for a felony, and who are out now they lose their rights, when they go in, they come out there they can they can get vote, the voting rights back, they don't know it often, or they're not sure if they qualify. So we do a quiz takes 11 seconds, basically. And then if you if you can vote, you get pushed across to the registration site for the Georgia state. And that's it. Really easy. Population of Georgia voting, voting population, 8 million people with a criminal record over 4.1 million. This is a terrible, terrible perspective of America, which is 5% of the world's population. 25% of the world's prison populations are horrible anyway. But to get those people to take the quiz, and we've had several 1000 take the quiz. How do we do it with influences? I'll tell you we do it in two ways. Way. One is we have people like common, and Kerry Washington who get involved with kind of one, but what we really did that made a difference. There's 105 different counties in Georgia, we went to every county and we engage with a nano influencer there people who have less than 10,000 followers, the point you were making before. And so it's the baker, the hairdresser, the minister in those communities, and got them to post. And that really had a huge impact. So I think they say all politics is local. It's true with influencer engagement in politics, that all influencer engagement for politics should should be local. And so we have have that in that but working with these local community organizations, like there's ones that the Georgia Justice Project or ones that deal with women who've been formerly incarcerated. So that's really what we're doing. And we're now going into Arizona, which is a much tougher state, frankly, to get your voting rights back. Yep. So yeah, it's important.

I mean, Paul, I love that you're taking these principles and applying them in such a like relatable way. And we talk about the power of like marketing is mission like equipping people with these messages that have influence in the smallest of small communities really can change the world, it starts with that belief, and, and how we can just spread our messages. So I love this conversation so much, you know, every time we talk to you, and now I'm up to two times, Paul, every time I hang in your presence, I just think like what a beautiful life you have created, and gotten active and really taken what these opportunities and turn them into such incredible things.

Jon, can I just just, if I can just say, actually, it's me who's who's who's the lucky one. Because here's a guy from the music business, who has dealt with people save Father Rick in Haiti, who started a hospital there 30 years ago, who's still there, who went over as a priest and became a doctor who does the most amazing work and the most difficult. So I'm the one who has been enriched by the people I've been in contact with much more than then than the reverse. And I think that history that's imbued through me and experiences now what I want to give back with this idea of this field of cause influenced the use of popular culture and entertainment for social impact in a more formal way is the mission. So that just interrupted, I don't want to, I mean, because the reverse.

That's honestly, yeah, that's why we have a kinship with you because we feel exactly the same way. But I think you chose not to just receive information and sit on the sidelines, you chose to take that and create the change that you wanted to see in the world. And so we want to champion that. And I want to ask you to tell us a story because we talk about the power of philanthropy, every day on this podcast. What's a moment that philanthropy is like shaking you and will always remember, you know, kind of in your heart.

I think going to Haiti, I talked about father Rick and the work that they do over there, and now that now that hospitals and demons pediatric hospital was 400 employees, it's run by Haitian doctors who could earn a lot more money, if they just and be much safer. We had a doctor that was kidnapped from that hospital recently. If they if they came to the States, but they don't they stick in. And they stay in there because they believe in the people in the country. And to Damien's hospital. You can't. People don't have the money to pay for it, for example, you know. So I think those type of experiences where you just see the people on the ground doing this amazing work is really the ones that that much, much more than the and maybe this is because I come out of that business, but much more than seeing an artist on the stage, although they they can do fantastic work and look at the Taylor Swift effect recently, in terms of voting in the Super Tuesday primaries, there was a huge, huge bump in voter registration of over 1,000% with vote vote.org. So I'm don't want to deny the amazing impact that they have. But really, we shouldn't forget the people on the ground doing the work. And I just would like to say there's one other thing that I'm working on, it's not really this is the first public chat about it. We're putting together a website

You heard it here folks.

Yes, if people want to get involved in the political process from whichever side of the aisle, we're putting together a website with a lot of detailed information about organizations about if you want to get involved in an issue like voter turnout, youth vote, democracy, whatever it is, if you want to get involved with different candidates, or if you want to get involved through a particular way of being like both, like donating, volunteering, etc, that's, that's going to be coming in the next month or so. And so, it'll be called I think it's going to be cool, political, political evolve.org like politics and involve together. That was a chat GBT. Love it. Prompt. AI is everywhere.

Everywhere.

Definitely is.

I mean, I think people came for the influencer conversation. But these conversations are so important. Because it's not just about the influencer, you know, it can lead in to democracy, it can lead into humanity. And we got to wrap up. And we want to ask you, your one good thing. We ask this to all of our guests. We want to end this conversation with something that someone can do today, what would be your advice? Your maybe a life hack that you would give to everyone today?

Wow, that's, that's, that's a really interesting question. I'm gonna go back to the One Step. Take the first step. I think I think if you can commit to one thing, you don't have to do 50 different things. But just start the process, start the journey get involved. You'd be you'd be amazed where it can be. I had a conversation with Rita, who does a podcast platform, she's starting for Latinx. That led me because I was talking about Alma philanthropies and this youth, community organizations that we work with to fund music for young people as a youth development thing, that she then got me to a city council person in Houston, who then got me to the head of Houston Arts Alliance, who I spoke with yesterday. And now we're looking at a whole stretch, you never know where it leads. Look at my look of your journey. So I just think get started. That's a good way to move for a part.

Paul, you've blown our minds, you've grown our hearts. We mentioned your book, I want people to not miss that. You know that you can get Paul's wisdom in this beautiful shell called good influence. Don't miss that book. The power, what are the other ways that people can connect with you? And your work over it entertain impact, like point of story you hang out online?

Yeah, sure. LinkedIn is is a good way for me. And you can call me cats at LinkedIn. You can just search for me on that. I'm on IG Instagram as well. And then you know, people want to email me you can go on my author site and just send me an email. I want to have dialogue. Part of what I'm trying to do now is build up this whole idea of local communities is taking action, so around and willing to have those conversations.

There you go, you have got a someone nonprofit that is willing to help. I mean, we literally just had this conversation with someone in our community. He's trying to build a pitch for a major movie star. And it's like if you have questions, if you're stuck, Paul's giving you access. Thank you, Paul, for just not only coming in here and sharing such wisdom, but thank you for your humanity, your humility, your kindness and your generosity. These are the things that are going to push us forward in our humanity. So just wishing you well, can't wait for the next conversation with you.

Well, thank you very much for having me and the work that you do. I mean, 500 plus podcasts. You've given a lot to the community, so congrats.

That's our joy. Thank you.

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