Good evening, everyone. I'm Dr. Jyothi Pranesh, an occupational health physician. Today we'll be talking to Manisha Chowbey, a businesswoman and the challenges she has faced because of face blindness and how she overcame them. Before we listen to Manisha's experiences, some awareness about the condition would be useful. Many of us may not even know what the term face blindness means. It's a condition in which one is unable to recognize familiar faces. The medical term for this is prosopagnosia. Some individuals with severe face blindness may not even be able to recognize their family members unless they speak. So what they're likely to do is to recognize individuals with some specific attributes, like say, a different hairstyle, or spectacles of a particular design, mole on the face, unusual height, and the types of clothes one wears. But all this may fail if they were to meet these individuals in unfamiliar surroundings, where they're not expecting to see them, as many individuals can have these types of, these specific attributes that I've just mentioned. So, how would one make out if one has face blindness? There are several clues on how you can identify somebody around you to help them out. They are frequently failing to recognize familiar people when encountering them in unexpected contexts, they may have difficulty following the plots of TV shows or films. If it is a child, he or she may be particularly clingy even in public places with their parents, because they're worried that they may lose the parent. He or she may wait for the parent to wave when collecting him or her from school, and may mistakenly approach strangers thinking that it's their parents. They may also be socially withdrawn at school and appear to have a difficulty making friends. This may be in contrast, their more confident behavior at home when recognition is not an issue in home surroundings, because they normally have specific attributes that they have for their own family members with which they can easily recognize them, including their voice.
With this introduction to face blindness, I welcome you Manisha to this talk. I understand that you came to know the name of this condition recently. How do you feel about this? Also, when did you realize that you were different from others in terms of face recognition? Was it one instance that helped you or was it a gradual realization?
Thank you, Jyoti, for such a beautiful introduction about this face blindness, which I think most of the people they are not aware of, and that this is a particular deficiency or lacking in them, and they take it as a general weakness, instead of taking it as a deficiency or as a disease, you can say. I came to know about this face blindness very recently, when one of my friends she pointed me out that this is also a type of a deficiency or a type of a lacking, which the people are having. And when I correlated her sayings, with my incidences that I had faced since childhood, I came to know and I became confident for which I was not aware of also.
Okay
That yes, this is this is their disease, this is the deficiency or this is the lacking that I was having. And you can say that, then I started not only recollecting the old incidences, but also I started making a note of it in the recent cases when I was going through it.
Okay.
Like if somebody somebody is coming over to me and talking to me, and I'm not able to recollect that person. Then immediately I used to, I mean, previously, I used to think like ki shayad main bhool gayi hongi (maybe I forgot). But after pointing this out, then I thought, yes, that yes, this is the thing that I was lagging behind, which I was not aware of.
Correct.
So, then I became more conscious, and I started making a note of it, that how I was able to forget him and what was the incidence? Then, I used to correlate.
Okay.
And yes, then I came to know that yes, this is the thing that I was different from others.
Correct. So, can you recollect any particular instance from a childhood when you face difficulty because of the condition? And how did you cope with it, any specific instance that you can remember?
Ah, yes, in my childhood as being a girl, always, whenever I used to go out, I used to go with my family members only. And since my father was into business, and I was the eldest in the family always he used to take me along with him. So, whenever I used to go with him, or with any other members of my family, I was well aware of that yes, I am going to such and such uncle's place or Auntie's place or to meet some people there, so, I was aware of those persons, their names, so, I was able to recollect them.
Correct correct, okay
Because I was aware of that I'm going to this place
Yes
but had that not been, suppose if I was not knowing beforehand that we are going to this particular place, or this particular uncle's place or Auntie's place, then it would have been very difficult for me to recollect that. I will, I will, if I'm seeing somebody, I will keep on thinking Yes, I know him, I know him. I keep on thinking and keep on pressing my memory -- kahan dekha, kahan dekha, kahan dekha (where was it that I saw this person). And by the time we are off also, but I'm not able to recollect ki inko maine kahan dekha (where did I see/meet this person).
the face/looks
Yes, the face used to look similar, or something similar that I know that about that person, but I'm not able to recollect that who he is, or what is her name and all. So and not only, even even when I used to go out with my father, specially for many things he used to put me in front.
Right
Like, I should take the initiative and I should do the things. Like suppose if I'm moving to some other station, and if we are in the station, he used to say that go and get the tickets from the ticket counter. So if I'm going to the ticket, I'm going to the ticket counter to get the tickets, instead of moving forward, I always used to look backward so that I'm not losing the sight of my father. So one eye, I will have to keep it on him and again the second eye I have to move in the front.
Forwards, in the queue. Yeah.
So, always I used to look at back ki woh hain ki nai, kahin chale toh nai gaye (Is he still there, has he gone away somewhere).
Yeah.
And till I was looking at him, and I was able to see him, I used to be confident. But if I'm losing his sight, then my confidence used to go and the same thing was even if we are going to some new places. And if we are in a taxi or if we are going walking, then he will keep mum and he will follow me. And he will tell me to, he will tell me to recognize the roads and all. Always he used to say jahan se ja rahe ho, woh rasta yaad rakhna (remember the route you are taking).
Okay. You could remember routes, you are okay with the remembering routes?
I was not that confident with the routes in the beginning
Okay.
And the marks that I used to leave behind was, I mean, as a kid, I used to feel like, some cow was sitting here, or some dog was standing here, or one vehicle of red color or black color was standing there.
Some landmark.
Ya, these types of these are these type of landmarks I used to keep, which was not a permanent landmark.
Ah, so it would change.
And when we had they were movable. Yes, yes. And when we used to return back, and but my father, he used to follow me. I mean, he will not point it out. He will not point it out so that I'm becoming conscious of it. And if, if we have crossed that street and moved forward, then he will just say,"kya hum sahi rastey pe hai" (are we on the right path). And then I will say that, yes yahan par ek red color ki car khadi thi, uske baad apne ko turn lena hai (there was a red color here, we have to take a turn after that).
Okay.
Or I will say some dog was standing here
Right
Or, some cow was sitting here. So all these type of landmarks, I used to keep. So then after returning over to that place again, he used to say that these landmarks will never work.
Right.
He was not aware of my this
Correct. Difficulty
defficiency or difficulty in making out the roads and all. But he, he made it a point, he educated me in such a way like he used to say that you should have a permanent mark. Like the hoarding, like the name of the road, name of the street, color of the house, name of the shops
You didn't have any difficulty remembering those things, isn't it? Like, say for example, shops.
No, with those things with those things I use, then after that, having those things in my mind I used to, I was more comfortable.
Right.
And then I was not able to miss on those things. But then why going also, if I'm moving to some new place, also, I used to be very particular and very conscious looking on both the sides.
Right?
To keep on having the landmarks.
Correct
Because previously, the technology was not that strong. We were not having GPS, we were not having mobiles even not having route maps. But now the things have become much, much much easier, because of the advanced technology.
Yes. And can you kind of let me know about
here one more thing I would like to add.
Yes, please,
Like, unconsciously or unknowingly, my father helped me out in making the right landmarks, or in educating me in making the right landmarks. Unaware...unknowingly, he made me cautious.
If you're not face blind, I mean, normally we do depend on landmarks all the time for you know for routes, making out and it is the right way of doing it that you need to have some permanent landmarks to be able to get where you need to go or you know, to take the right route. So, yes.
Correct.
And what has been your experience in the workplace? You know, if you can tell us something about your work.
Yeah, as being an entrepreneur or a business lady, it was very difficult for me to identify my customers like suppose if..., but I was very comfortable with them when they used to come over to my workplace or to my showroom. And I used to talk to them very nicely, but the same person if I'm meeting him in some other marketplace, or some party or some conference, or any unexpected place, then it was completely gone case I was it was very difficult for me to make it out that who this gentleman or this gentlelady is and I used to keep on thinking that where I've seen where I've seen. The face used to look familiar, but without any recollection in my mind that where I've seen him? What is her or his name? And how do I know this person? Whether he is my dealer, whether he is my customer, whether he is my company person. So it used to be very difficult for me. And even even when I used to go out for/to attend some conferences and all, I used to find out a person with whom I was familiar with and I used to stick with them. And but I was not able to make it out that why this thing is happening to me because with the product or with items that I was dealing, dealing with was my field was very different. It was a male dominated field.
Right.
And, and not only in my place, but I would like to say that in entire India I was the only lady distributer in entire India.
Okay.
The people they used to recognize me, they used to come and chat with me, they used to appreciate me, they used to praise me. not because I was a lady, but because I was the only person. I mean, in a male dominating area, I was the only lady who was giving them a tough competition. I was, I was, I mean, at par with them.
Correct correct.
So they used to come and then I used to think like, they all know me not because of they know me, not because I'm very different, but because I was the only lady. And in this mereko kabhi ye nai laga ki ye meri lacking hai, ya mera koi minus point hain. [And in this, I never felt that there was anything lacking in me, or that this is a minus point in me].
Right, you felt equal
I used to feel it is in general.
Yeah. Yeah
Theek hai, main akeli hoon, isliye sab mujhe pehchaan lete hai. [It is ok, since I am the only lady, all recognise me]. And I'm surrounded with almost all all the time I'm surrounded with the male members. So I used to feel ki theek hai, sabhi ek jaise dikhate for me. [So I used to feel that all look the same to me.] And once in a year, if you're meeting in some conference or in some meeting, then it used to be very difficult for me to make it out that this particular gentleman or this particular person is from which state or from which city?
Correct? And who is this person?
Whether, yeah, whether he is a company person, or whether he is a general partner, dealer, distributor? It used to be very difficult for me.
At least if you're the person who used to stick with could recognize them, then it's fine. Otherwise, it will be more difficult, isn't it?
Yes, yes, yes. That was the reason I used to be with him only and I used to tell him, I mean without without making him known that I'm poor in recognizing or recollecting the person and the incidents and the places I used tell him mereko dhayan nai aa raha hai ye kaun hai. [I used to tell him, I have finding it hard to remember who this person.]
Yeah, very cleverly, you kind of fudged the implication.
So sometimes I used to feel like that, not and not only this, but I never thought of that this is lacking in me, because of one single reason because of my qualification. I mean, my father, he gave me. My qualification was very good. In my period, hardly you used to get the girls or the ladies who were I mean, who were able to speak in English, who were able to convince other persons with whatever I'm dealing with in English. I used to feel like that this is something very different. So the people they are able to
recognise you and you are well known.
Make me out. Yes. So my field was different. My personality was different. My education was different. So, I used to think ki wahan pe koi hai nai, isliye log mereko pehchaan lete hai. [So, I used to think that since there is no one else, that's why people recognise me.] Instead of...
I think in a way it was good for you, isn't it. Because you are more confident about what you're doing. And you know, this this problem didn't actually kind of lower your confidence or self esteem in any way, isn't it? Because you never thought of it as such?
Yes, yes. I was not aware of it only na.
Correct correct.
Woh confidence isliye usmein khatam nai hua [My confidence did not get challeged]. Yeah. Had I known that this is my weakness or this is my lacking or this is my deficiency, so I think that confidence must have gone but because I was not aware of so I was overconfident.
So do you think it would have been more difficult if you were working say in an open plan office or you know in people facing roles in a bank or in a hospital setting where you're going to be meeting you know, people mostly like on a regular basis say patients are there in the wards for a long time you working in a hospital so you need to be able to recognize them or in a bank where you have some regular customers who expect you to know them. So, do you think you would have struggled with those type of areas workplaces?
Yes, yes. If If it had been any open spaces like places like your school or hospital or banks, because nowadays they are having a dress code, like if you will go to the hospital, you will see that all the doctors are in white coat or in green dress before the operation or in blue dress before the operation or post operation. So, it would have been very difficult to make it out that who this particular person is or who that the nurse is or whether doctor is. Had it been to bank even if I would have worked in any bank now they are having their dress code like they will have a particular tie or or a coat or a blazer. So, then it also it would have been very difficult
Also, I think the customers who come to the bank, they will be regular customers and they may expect you to know them if you're working in a bank
Yes, but one thing was good with me that I used to recollect people from their voices, from their accent, from their pronunciation right. So, that helped me a lot, if somebody is talking to me and if I will keep on thinking that who this gentleman or this gentle lady is then after some time of acha (oh!), this gentleman is so and so, after some time I will recollect because of his voice, because of his accent, because of his pronunciation, or the way he is talking to me.
You have a very good memory for voices, yeah, you have a very good voice
Yes, yes that that helped me a lot.
And Manisha, can you recollect any particular instance from your adulthood, not related to work, where you faced difficulty because of the condition. You know, not related to work, in a social setting or in other areas where you may have found difficulty.
Yes, I can recollect the recent case, that one of my friends, I met him after 35 years. So, I got his number from some social media. And I just thought of just let me give a ring and see whether this person is from, is the same person or not.
Right.
When I get when I gave a ring, and he was so happy. I was also very excited. We had a long chat. His voice was same, my voice he said that your voice is also the same. I said, no, your your voice has also not changed. And then after that, we decided to meet and it was almost 35 years gap.
Wow, okay, so the memory must be finished by then, I suppose.
Yeah. So that was a childhood, now, he's a grown up person. So I told him that all these years I have missed you, now when you're going to meet and all that is different thing. But before that, can you send me some of your photographs,
Right.
So he, he sent me almost more than 100 photographs,
Oh-kay.
And that was he sent it in such a manner that it was in a chronological way.
Okay, so, yeah, got it
When we left when we left college, when then after that, when he joined the service, then he went to another place and he got married. Then after when he had his first child.
Right
It was chronologically so I saw him changing.
Okay, right
That like black hair to gray hair, from full of hair to baldness, without specs to specs, and lean and then to a little fatty. So, it was in a chronological way. So I was able to make it out of acha [ok], this is the same person.
Right
But had had that friend met me in some marketplace or an unexpected place.
Right.
So it would have been very difficult for me to make it out that yes, this is the person with whom I've studied with.
I guess it would be same with a normal person, it would have been difficult I mean, especially meeting after such a long time, you know people change.
but but yes, because of his voice, because of his voice, I was able to recognize him.
Yes. And how would you be, you know, say for example, you know, you I think we already touched on this earlier, that if you were aware that you have this condition, say your, your parents had recognized that you have this difficulty in recognising faces. And if you were told about it, and you knew about it, would things have been very different now? Or do you think you'd still managed to, you know, cope with a deficiency and, you know, carry on as you are?
Oh, had my parents known, nor had I known that this is a deficiency or lacking in this field, I would have been more conscious, more conscious in meeting persons in going to places. In talking with others and being comfortable with others. So I think it was plus point that I was not aware of. For me, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah. So are you aware of it or would you have rather not been aware of ityou know, in terms of its ...
No I'm I'm very happy, I'm very happy that I'm aware of it. And not only for myself, but since I'm aware of it, I can take care of others also. Suppose, if somebody is coming in talking to me whether it's a kid or a small child male/female, friends, known/unknown and if they will come and if they will, tell me that main aapko pehchaan nai payi [I did not recognise you] So, I will not feel offended.
Right. Right.
Yeah, I will not feel offended because many a times when I used to means, if I was not that free that I can tell you ki main pehchaan nai payi [that I couldnt not recognise you]. Because I used to feel like he should not get hurt or she should not get hurt.
Right, okay.
Even if somebody is telling coming and telling to me and asking me ki shayad apne mujhe pehchana nai [maybe you did not recognise me], so I will pretend like nai nai nai, pehchana pehchana [no, no no, I recognised, I recognised].
Okay
but from the back of my mind, I will keep on thinking kaun hai, kaun hai, kaun hai [who is it]. But it was very difficult. But now I dont, I I feel like I will not be offended if somebody is coming and telling you that I'm not able to recollect or recognize you. I will feel like he or she is also suffering from the same problem with which I am suffering.
It's nice of you to have thought that way that you didn't want to offend people by saying that you were not recognize them, isn't it? Because I was thinking that it may be that you are you are not being forthright with them and saying you didn't recognize them because you felt that you may be mocked at you know, you may they may they may say oh you know can't even recognize me they may say that and that's why I would you know keeping quiet but I think I guess there may there may have been a bit of both, isn't it? In certain situations you may not want to have confessed that actually I don't recognize you, isn't it because you may think that a person may make fun of you. I mean.
Not only hat they may think that they may also think that I am very egoistic.
Aah, correct you think too much of yourself that's why you are not recognising.
I am very proud or adamant. Or, I think I think that I'm better than that, better than them. Y
Yeah.
So, because I was into business line. I used to avoid all these things. Means why to annoy anybody, why to annoy anybody. Agar koi bahoot pyar se aake bol raha hai ki madam aapne mujhe nai pehchana kya? [If somebody comes over with great affections and asks me madam, did you to recognise me?] Why should I annoy them by telling ki nahin nahin, nahin pehchana. [that no I did not recognise you] Utne he pyar se [With similar affection] I used to meet with them and I used say to say yes, yes, I have recognized you.
Yes. Yes. So um you know we just I think touched upon it briefly about you know, you you mentioning about your meeting your old you know childhood friend and you know, getting in touch via social media. Now, with so much of social media coming up, you know, along you have Facebook and WhatsApp and basically things you know, Twitter and again, with mobile phones being so you know, easily used around now. You think all this, you know has helped you know, your condition. Do you think you'd be able to make use of it to help you? Or do you not been that helpful?
To tell you the fact I'm not that comfortable with social media, because hardly I get time to watch. I'm not very active in Facebook, not very active in WhatsApp also. And even if WhatsApp, even if it is there, then they keep on changing the DPs their photographs, some animal is there sometimes the kid is there, sometimes their own childhood photograph is there. So I will be more confused. So, hardly I see, or some occasion they have visited to, or they had in their own place, like their anniversary or birthday or they had been to some outing. So, whether it's a picnic sport, or it's a tour immaterial of. So instead of looking at the photographs.
Do you think it's because because you have been recognizing faces that you would rather not look at the photographs? Is that why you were like not keen? You think?
That will make me more confused now. Okay, suppose suppose if, today you're having your kid's photo, after a few days, you're changing it and you're putting a flower photo, then it will confuse me?
Yes, yes, I get that.
But yes, the media has said you can say
mobile phones and GPS
Mobile phones and all have helped me, especially in the GPS system. Because for that, if we are putting the location beforehand, then yes, it becomes very easy to reach over to that place, or even if I'm out of station, then I will talk to some of the person who is well known to that place. And I will ask him or her to keep a track on GPS, wherever I'm moving. Right. So that that GPS has helped me a lot, Yes, undoubtedly. And with that, because and one more thing I would like to share is now because the GPS is there, we have instead of looking to the places, as a landmark, we have watching the GPS route only.
Correct? Correct. We become dependent on it even people who are good at routes have become dependent on the GPS. You are right.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it is a plus point also. And it is a minus point also. We should see it practically. Instead of depending on the GPS.
Now, any advice you would give to individuals with similar conditions, Manisha? What would you say to people who have a similar problem?
Yes, especially to the kids, whether it's a male or female immaterial. I would like to advise that they should not feel offended, they should not feel that it's a deficiency. And they should be more conscious of, and they should have some other marking in recognizing the people, in recognizing the places. And instead of being inward (introverted), they should mix, they should mix with the people they should go out. And, like, unknowingly, I did.
Yes. Yeah.
I never I never confined to four walls ki wahan pe main kisiko pehchanugi nahin, toh why should I go? [I never I never confined myself to four walls thinking I will not be able to recogise anyone there, so why should I go?] Whether it was whether it was a conference or a meeting or party or whatever it is, any any sort of any social gathering.
Yes. Getting out of your comfort zone? Yes, yes. Ah,
Yeah. So I never avoided, never avoided ki wahan pe because I'm not able to recognize people I should not go. So, if this is the thing then they should be, they should move with confidence, they should not lose their confidence. And even the parents, they should not keep on pointing their kids, ki tumko kahin bhi lejao toh tum pehchanthe nahin ho, aare ye to falani aunty hai, ye toh ye uncle hain, and so frequently you have met. [And even the parents, they should not keep on pointing their kids, that where ever we take you, you dont recognise anyone. Come on now, she is so and so aunty and he is so and so uncle, and so frequently you have met.]
Because they have no control, they are helpless, isn't it. The are helpless, they dont have any control over...
And innocently if the kid is confessing that main nahin pehchana uncle aapko, ya main nahin pehchana didi, ya main nahin pehchana aunty [that I did not recognise you uncle, or I did not recognise you sister, or I did not recognise you aunty], so, the parents also they should not feel offended how my kid is saying to this gentleman, or this friend of mine that he is not able to recognize him. On the contrary, they should tell him some other things, that how to recognize, how to recollect because this deficiency they are the people they are not even aware of.
Correct, correct. There should be more awareness towards it.
The awareness should be there. And we should not feel offended and neither we should hide also. At least we should be, we should be telling things to especially with our friends with our brothers and sisters, with our relatives. We should, we should share our feelings with them. Like if somebody is very if somebody is not good at words, good in the recollecting, remembering the names, somebody they are very, very poor in dates.
Yes.
So kisi ko tariq yaad nahin rehti, toh kisi ko occasion yaad nai rehta, toh kisiko naam yaad nahin rehta, toh kisiko face yaad nahin rehta. It is one and the same thing.
Correct. Everybody has some, you know, deficiency or difficulties, it isn't difficulit, it's about overcoming. Thank you, Manisha, it was really lovely speaking to you. Yeah. Thank you for patiently, you know, giving us a detailed account of your experiences in your replies.
And thank you so much. And I'm very thankful for the... to my friend that I'm able to know that what was lacking in me. Without that friend, without her making me aware of, I wouldn't have known also that this was the deficiency in me. So, I would like to thank her also.
Yes, definitely
I would like to thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
It was nice talking to thank you, thank you!
Same here, Manisha. Just to kind of conclude, we need to keep the dialogue on and open. Some part of the impairment with face blindness can be addressed by exploring health now possible with the artificial intelligence and face recognition software. And the hope is that this will empower individuals with this condition to lead a near normal life. And I think increasing awareness of this condition will allow more acceptance of the condition. Thank you all. Thank you.
