to ditch the clowns on the left and the Joker's on the right and join Michael Smerconish right here in the middle.
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Tec Welcome back to the daily podcast.
Oh my Well, thank you so much. You're probably wondering why you've been summoned. Why have I been summoned to the Smerconish daily podcast? I want you to I like to be I want
I want you to help me jog my memory about the case of Adnan Sayed Oh my theory Oh my so to day to day, the Baltimore Sun here's the headline Baltimore prosecutors move to vacate at non cyanide conviction in 1999 murder case brought to national fame in Serial podcast and it says I'm going to read a couple of paragraphs add on SIADH the Baltimore man whose legal saga rocketed to international renowned with the hit podcast Serial, could get a new trial after city prosecutors determine their predecessors withheld information about alternative suspects in the 1999 murder of Haman Lee, the Baltimore State's Attorney's Office moved on Wednesday to vacate side's conviction According to legal papers filed in Baltimore City Circuit Court. The new motion said prosecutors on the case decades ago knew there was another suspect who threatened to kill Lee sy Ed's ex girlfriend, and neglected to disclose the information to defense attorneys committing what's known as a Brady violation. You've got an obligation to share with the other side evidence that might be of assistance. Yeah, you can't you can't hold it.
Right. I've seen that in movies. And it's true. Yeah, Louis,
pardon me. Lee was strangled to death and buried in a clandestine grave in Baltimore's leakin Park. Authorities at the time beliefs I had struggled with Lee in a car before he killed and dragged her through the park. He has always maintained his innocence. A year long investigation conducted by prosecutors and sigh Ed's attorney uncovered new evidence including that alternative suspects either engaged in serial rape and sexual assault or attacked a woman in a vehicle the document show prosecutors motions also say that Lee's vehicle was located near a home associated with one of the alternative suspects. While officers of Baltimore's State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby do not concede that siad is innocent. The prosecutors motion says they no longer have faith in the conviction. Wow, we're not saying he's innocent. But we don't have faith in the conviction. So first of all, I can't believe that it's been. It's been seven years it was January of 2015. When I got all caught up in
this. Well, the only reason it feels right that it was that long is that in my mind, that was when podcasting popped cereal to me was the first time I had listened to a podcast, it was the first thing that everyone was buzzing about. Everyone was waiting for the next one to drop. My brother and his wife were obsessed with it, they got us turned on to it. And I just, I just couldn't stop listening to it. I couldn't stop I was caught up in it. Not the way you are caught up and I have
I have a recollection, I have a recollection of being in Florida at the time. And I like always going for long walks. And usually I listened to Intelligence Squared debates, my long walks, or at least I did then, because pre podcasts, they were like 45 minutes long, which was the time of the walk this particular route that I like to take, I have recollection of being in Florida with my family and all of a sudden dedicating you know, all of my daily walks to cereal, which is a spin off of This American Life. And Sara kainic, who was the host of you know, this 12 Podcast, installment story arc are telling of the case of odd non SCI Ed. And I got totally caught up in it. But I was not buying into what other people were buying into which was a picture of his innocence. I
was all about the entertainment factor. You are all about the legal side of it. Well,
I wrote on it and I said, quote, The combination of a whodunit Canigou mellifluous voice and excellent production values has created a new age version of an old time radio play, but with its breezy presentation and cliffhangers, it is not a trial like presentation of evidence and it lacks the cross examination necessary for a real search for truth, a point that might be lost on whoever is inclined to buy the merchandise, merchandise free odd non T shirts, which are now for sale in support of odd non SIADH. So after getting caught up in it, and recognizing that the prosecutor Kevin Urich was not a part of the Serial podcast presentation, I thought, hey, I want to speak to the prosecutor.
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I thought hey, I want to speak to the prosecutor. And I hosted him here on my radio program the date January 15. Of 2015. Do you remember me having Kevin Jurek? Absolutely
I remember that my recollection is that he was not an easy booking at all right? He hadn't spoken to the podcast, he hadn't spoken anybody. I don't know if he had after you. But you were definitely his first interview, possibly his only interview. And my recollection is that I made the original overtures, but you had to close the deal. You as the sort of lawyer to lawyer had to had to, you know, tell him that things were on the up and up. I just remember being a difficult booking.
From my notes. I see that in the final episode, Sarah kainic asks, Did we just spend a year applying excessive scrutiny to a perfectly ordinary case? Yes, is the clear answer, says Michael, with a steep societal cost. I remember being very concerned about the way that the podcast had gone after a guy who provided the testimony that allowed the conviction of odd non siad and I remember being troubled by the precedent that was going to set here because of so much pressure already against people quote unquote snitching. And then I wrote a column in the final line of my column I said, in the final episode, Canuck naively wonders, why would a guilty man allow me to do his story? Really, Sarah, Bob Dylan said it best when you ain't got nothing, you got nothing else to lose? Anyway, I thought it would be a great podcast deal dust off from the archives if we pulled quickly my interview with the prosecutor of this case. I mean, I I'm not conversant in all the facts. I was at the time seven years ago when I got swept in it. I wouldn't be able to you know, defend the prosecution or defend the innocence of Adnan Sayed. I've lost touch with it. And I kind of want to go back and listen to this myself. And then I thought, hey, this would be a great daily podcast installment. So for that reason, let's all listen Kevin Urich January 15 2015, discussing his prosecution of odd non Sayed who now it seems, is going to get a new trial. All right, calling all serial fans. My next guest is Kevin Urich. He is a lawyer he is a former prosecutor now in private practice in Maryland. Kevin Urich successfully prosecuted Adnan Sayed who's now serving life in prison for the murder of a high school classmate, a former girlfriend payment Li, a 12 part installment on NPR about that murder case is now said to be the most successful podcast ever. In December CNN estimated that it had been downloaded 40 million times. The basic facts cited was convicted in 2000 of murdering 17 year old Haman Lee spoiler alert in the 12th and final episode of cereal hosts Sarah Cana concludes she quote can't swear that he's innocent, but that most of the time, I think he didn't do it. In my opinion, and you know this if you follow me on Twitter, and I've spoken of it on my own program, from the very first episode, it's clear, at least to me that Sarah Canucks interest lies in giving voice to the convicted killer whom she describes as having giant brown eyes, like a dairy cow. And she wonders Could someone who looks like that really strangle his girlfriend at least in that first episode she she catches herself and says idiotic I know. But then as the episodes unfold, I think her bias becomes increasingly obvious. I've written about this a newspaper column that I will publish Should this coming Sunday and I will give you chapter and verse. Nevertheless, as I speak sigh Ed's latest appeal is winding its way through the Maryland courts. I have a primary beef with the Serial podcast beyond the facts of just the case of Adnan SIADH. And that is that it's, it's almost an indictment of snitching because the linchpin of the Serial podcast, from my perspective is the taking apart piecemeal of Jay, Jay was an accomplice of SIADH, after the murder helps him bury the bat body. And but for his testimony, there wouldn't have been a conviction. It doesn't seem of SCI Ed. And I don't like the idea that we're going after someone who had the willingness, the courage to stand up and testify at trial, because but for this individual, it would seem that a murderer would be free. We have a situation at home here in Philadelphia, one guy Carboni Savage, who was given 13 death sentences, 12 of them for murders that he ordered or had committed, including six relatives of an informant. The 13th was for witness retaliation. And I took note of the fact that last week in The Washington Post, The Washington Post revealed that 37 people have been killed in the District of Columbia and Maryland, the scene of science crime since 2004, because they snitched and yet the guy who snitched in this case, Jay gets villainized in the podcast. So that's my thought process about cereal, the podcast This is Kevin Jurek. Hey, Kevin, thank you so, so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
For how many years? Were you a prosecutor?
What? Actually, I still am. I'm now in a County in Maryland, where I'm part time as a prosecutor. So I'm allowed to have a private practice on the side as well. So I still practice as a prosecutor and I have a civil practice. I can't do criminal defense work, but I do pretty much anything civil.
For how many years? Have you been a prosecutor? About 25? Was the case of Adnan SIADH. One of your more memorable cases, or would you describe it as being fairly routine.
The case itself was very routine. It's memorable because the defense attorney was so hard nosed and so aggressive.
Her name Gutierrez, she's no longer with us. And that becomes a major part of the serial plotline, let me get to that subject right now, was she at the top of her game, from your perspective, when you were litigating this case against her?
Definitely, she was probably the most feared defense attorney in Baltimore City from the mid 90s, to the late 90s.
Because by the end of because by the end of the serial 12 episodes, a listener could easily come away with the impression that Gutierrez your opponent was impaired and that that wounded the defense of this case.
She was at the top of her game during that period, she was taking all the high profile cases, she was paid top dollar, she only took the really, she had her pick. And she could pick and choose which cases she took at that time. The difficulty she ran into in the side case is that she had no true defense that she could put on, it was impossible based on the evidence for an alibi to be presented. Because everything that they tried to do in terms of alibi, our evidence destroyed it. So she was reduced to trying to discredit the witnesses. And she spent three weeks trying to do that.
How many of the 12 episodes of cereal Have you heard?
Actually, I have heard none. I was not aware of being on the air until about the end of November, beginning of December, when all of a sudden I got contacted by a couple reporters who wanted me to comment about it. That was the first I'd heard about it. So I'd say I heard about it, maybe was that three, maybe four episodes before the end? I had no interest in listening to it. So I've not listened to it. But my
recollection is that on repeated occasions, I might be wrong about this. But then on repeated occasions throughout the podcast, there's reference made two attempts to get you to speak going back to the beginning of the investigation by the NPR journalists.
I had heard about Sarah Konak in probably the end of 2013, while the post conviction hearing was going on. I heard about her as a NPR reporter with a program called an American life. I knew she was talking to people about the SIADH case. What I was hearing was not very favorable to her. I cannot swear that she did not try to contact me it's possible that there was a voice message that she left that I did not respond to. But I can say that she tried to contact me multiple times. Definitely not.
So you haven't listened. Have you nevertheless, read any transcript reps of any of the 12 episodes.
The reporters I give an interview for with the intercept gave me a brief transcript of how she was trying to handle the cell phone evidence. Other than that art, I noticed a couple of things I've read,
Did you learn anything that you didn't know about the case?
From everything I've seen and everything I've read, you don't learn anything because she suppresses so much of it. She takes an issue, gives the defense argument does not give the response and does not tell the viewer that this has already been ruled on by a court. It's like she's emotionally trying to draw people in and sympathize with SCI Ed. And to a certain extent, I think that's what she has to do if she doesn't, if she comes out and say scientists guilty, she doesn't have a program.
Well, this was one of my objections. In fact, I adopted at Twitter a hashtag of entertainment, not evidence, because I think I waited 10 hours to learn that he hadn't testified in his own behalf. And of course, I recognize I'm an attorney. I recognize his Fifth Amendment right. But that's information I would have liked to have known sooner. I think it wasn't until episode 11. I'd have to check my notes until I learned that part of his appeal is predicated on him saying he wanted to cop a plea. And his defense lawyer didn't take that to you, the prosecutor. And I thought those were two instances where this thing was being massaged for entertainment value, not as a search for the truth.
Well, I think what probably wasn't revealed was that when we went to sentencing in the case, by that time, he had dismissed good years and had a new attorney. He still stood up and said, I have consistently maintained my innocence and I maintain it today. You know, she tried the case because that's what he wanted her to do.
Well as of today is the appeal in part predicated on him wanting a plea.
That's one of the things the appeal. Well, the post conviction was ruled on in January of 2014. At that time that the trial judge of that hurted denied relief on all the issues. They have filed an appeal on those issues. So yes, that's one of the issues that will be addressed by the appellate court. I hear that they may be in the process now of either having or scheduling oral arguments on the appeal from the post conviction.
This is the Smerconish podcast from Sirius XM.
When it comes to therapy and psychiatry, getting the help you need has never been so simple. When you're able to access your provider from the comfort of your device, it means therapy can be on your schedule, and alleviating wait times to get an appointment or the travel time to an office can free up time for the rest of your life. talkspace so convenient and accessible. It helps us feel supported around the clock talkspace The number one online therapy platform that has 1000s of licensed therapists trained in over 40 specialties, including anxiety, depression, relationships and more. Your therapist can help you set and achieve your goals. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get $100 off your first month with talkspace. To match with a licensed therapist today go to talk space.com Make sure to use the Code Club to get $100 off your first month and show your support for the program. That's club at talk space.com
listen to Michael live weekdays on POTUS Sirius XM channel 124. And on the ssmf.
Mr. Urich a big part of the serial presentation is that the cell tower records don't jive with the prosecution timeline. Can you speak to that criticism?
The evidence in this case can really be broken down two very basic elements you have on the one hand, Jay's story is what he told us about what happened that night. Then from 18 T. We got certain types of evidence. One was the record of calls made and calls received. That allowed the police to find out who was being talked to they were able to confirm that during the day before school ended. Not in cell phone was in Jays possession because everybody was talking with Jay during the course of the day. Then, Jay said that around 245 Odd nine contacted him and said, That's what I want. Now I want you to come to me. And there is a call from a payphone to non cell phone which was in Jays possession at that time, right around 245. Then throughout the course of the evening, I'd known as taking calls or making calls the people who were speaking to him confirmed that but there were also at least a couple of times that Jay got on the phone, and were able to confirm that those putting J and odd nine together throughout the entire course of the night. The other important information from that was the time of the calls. And then at&t gave us their cell tower logs 18 T at that time had a very primitive system compared to today, today. Today, cell phone towers can switch around if their cells are all tied up so they can switch it to another cell phone tower. Sometimes quite a difference away. But back in 1999, when this occurred, they did not have switching capability. If a call went to a cell phone tower, that meant you had to be in the geographical reception area for that tower. at&t provide us with that reception area, what they did was they made a map of southern Baltimore County, Baltimore City, they put an overlay on it with the location of their cell phone towers, and then the geographical area around it in which a cell phone could be received, thus, the reception area for that cell phone. Very powerful evidence. And if you read of at least what I read in the transcript from Connick, she spends a lot of time talking about today's cell phone towers, which have the switching capability. So he doesn't tell you that the technology is different. Most of the arguments in court today occur because it's the difference in the technology, and how you can read it properly.
Well, I thought that she she raised a number of questions as to whether the cell towers comported, with where SIADH was supposed to be, according to the prosecution narrative. But the one issue that remained open for which she could not offer an explanation is how the cell tower put him in Lincoln Park at the time that he was there burying the body with Jay, let me spend our remaining two minutes asking you about J. A part of serial has to do with his shifting narrative, speak to the credibility of that witness, from your perspective as the prosecutor.
Anytime that you're putting on a criminal prosecution, it's usually the person who committed the crime, who picks his accomplices, we have to take the accomplices that they pick, we don't get to choose who their accomplice was. J was odd nines accomplished J picked him. Anytime you're dealing with someone like that. You're dealing with someone who's got things to hide, they're reluctant to tell you, you go through a process. Initially, they will deny any involvement. But then you say, Hey, we've got this information over here that says you were and then they start breaking down. They'll say, Well, I was a little bit involved. And then they open up to you think that you've got a true story. You may not have 100% accurate story, because there's always things that people have to hide. You're concerned about? Do I have the story about the crime that I'm going to take this such that I can put it before a jury and let the jury decide the credibility. Jay was on the stand for five days, with Christina Gutierrez trying to discredit him. Based on the cooperation of the major key points through the cell phone information. I think the jury found AMS to that very credible and they convicted on that.
And as I was listening to it, I was saying to myself with my with my perhaps legally trained ear, if I'd killed someone and needed help bearing a body, I'm not looking for a choir boy. I'm looking for the guy who was selling pot in school, Kevin Urich. Thank you so much for being here. On a different occasion. Maybe we'll come back and spend even more time on this, but I really appreciate your willingness to talk to me.
Thank you for having me on.
That's Kevin Jurek the prosecutor of Adnan Sayed, in the case now made famous by serial, the podcast,
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