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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is John Samuel from the United States. He's an entrepreneur, a writer, and a family man. Hi John, welcome!
Thank you so much, George. I'm so excited to be here.
John, you've either published or just about to publish a book. So what is this book all about?
Yeah, so my book will be released on November 1. And it's called 'Don't ask the blind guy for direction'. A 30,000 mile journey for love, confidence and a sense of belonging. And the book, it talks about it right there in the title. It's about my journey around the world looking for love and confidence and sense of belonging that everybody wants. But I did that as a blind person.
When you say 30,000 miles around the world, you know, it sounds a long distance. What exactly does it mean?
Yeah. So I'm originally from North Carolina. My folks immigrated from India in 1969 from Kerala.
Yeah.
And I was raised in North Carolina. But when I was in college, I was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, and I was up in school in Richmond, Virginia which is just 150 miles away. But I was diagnosed with it, and I didn't know how to deal with it. When you're told you're going blind, it's a devastating feeling. And you feel alone, and my actions led to me going to another college, I came back home to North Carolina, and started taking classes at NC State University. And eventually, I took so many classes that they had to let me into a full time program, and I graduated. But if you've ever been to North Carolina, George, you've ever been in North Carolina you know, there's not much public transportation, and you have to drive. And so, this is a pre Uber, pre lift days. And so, when I couldn't drive, I knew I had to get out of North Carolina because I didn't think anyone blind could ever live here. And so, I decided to move out to Bangalore, India which you know, I could get a car and driver, there was auto rickshaw, there was a much more accessible place for me, in terms of transportation.
In Bengaluru, what was the job? Meaning was it an IT kind of job or was it kind of an outsourcing company? What was the assignment?
Yeah so when I was in college, when I first went to college, I went in as an engineering student. But as my sight was failing, I decided that's why I couldn't do engineering. So I switched to accounting, which was much easier for me with my limited set at the time. And so when I came to Bangalore, I was working for a company called Sasken which was an IT communication company, but I was on the finance department. And I was working in corporate treasury. So I was managing cash management and currency hedging for the company which was pretty exciting.
You started losing your eyesight while you were in university. And very often, that's an age when it's very difficult to kind of accept the reality of vision loss. What is your story? Meaning have you come to terms with your vision loss or is that still a challenge?
Yeah. So as I mentioned, when I was first diagnosed, I didn't take it well and I ended up failing out of college. And so, you know, that was the initial reaction. And then over the next several years, I kept it a secret, you know, only very close family members knew and very close friends. It wasn't something openly talked about. And especially when we were in India, I remember visiting my family and my parents said stay close. They didn't want people to know that I couldn't see that well. And so, you know, when I was in New York, I started opening up with some friends. And it was something we never talked about. We never put a label of retinitis pigmentosa or blindness. But it was just something that my friends knew and they took care of me. But it really took me going to grad school in Washington, DC, where I did my MBA to really open up on my vision loss because it was the first time I did it. I was actually at a orientation event for my MBA. And we had these table where they had name cards where you're supposed to sit and I couldn't see. So I turned to the person next to me and it happened to be the Associate Dean of the Business School, and she was the one who had actually recruited me to come to Washington DC and to grad school there. And so she could empathize with me because she actually had a child with special needs. And she encouraged me to be open about my vision loss with my classmates. And, so I did, I started talking about it openly. And I often say that was the first time I could truly be my true self. And I was able to open up my heart and I was able to find love for the first time and I met my wife at the MBA program. But that was my real first time opening about personally. But it took me another 10 years for me to be able to open up, yeah, seven years, five years to be able to open up professionally.
You said, when you came back from India, you started working for the city of New York? So what was your assignment there.
When I was working for the ciity New York, I was working for the actual city of New York, providing financial education for city employees. This includes the fire men and women, the fire houses, sanitation yards. It's everybody who works for the city. And this was in 2008 and 2009 during the recession in the United States. And really, we couldn't tell people not to take the money out of their retirement or pensions. But we can only educate them. So I had to travel all around New York City, I don't know if you've been to New York, but it's pretty much made of five major parts, five boroughs. And it's quite large. And I had to go all around to these remote areas and educate people. But it was an interesting job because it taught me a lot about traveling without being able to see. It taught me how to speak in front of large groups of people and people with different backgrounds and myself. But it didn't pay that well. And I was literally living paycheck to paycheck, because Manhattan's very expensive to live in. And so that was kind of the driver for me to leave. But otherwise, you know, New York provided the accessibility from a travel and mobility perspective. But from a career perspective, that's where I struggled. And that's why I needed to move on.
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When you're working in Africa, where were you actually based? You lived in the US and worked in Africa or you actually had to relocate to Africa?
Yeah, I relocated to Douala, Cameroon which is in West Central Africa.
Right.
And so I was there for, you know, the majority of my three years in Africa, it's been pretty much two years there. And then I later moved to Kampala, Uganda where I spent a year.
I must ask you here meaning you probably had partial vision at that point of time. So what were your major challenges when you were working in Africa in terms of your travel, in terms of engaging with your colleagues and engaging with the local day to day life?
I've never been to Africa. I had never been to Cameroon where the the major languages are French and English. I didn't know French. So you land there, I have to figure out how to navigate. And often I had to figure out how to start a business from scratch. And so when it came to my vision loss, I didn't want people to know because I thought it you know, before it being liability professionally, but now we're literally a liability from a safety perspective. I didn't want people to know. And I remember even the first day I landed, many of the flights incoming to Africa landed in the middle of the night time zones. And so I remember landing my very first day in Cameroon, and I had to go to the hotel. But you know, having travelled to India quite a bit you can imagine- you're just expecting after you get out of baggage claim to hear people yelling.
Yeah.
So I got out of there and I heard someone say "taxi taxi", I walked over to them into the voice, couldn't see them. Just heard the "taxi taxi". And I told them the hotel, he grabbed my suitcase and I started listening to the wheels on the suitcase moving. And this is the back of the days of the old Nokia, the push button phones. I had dailed my parents number on the phone and I had my finger on the Send button. And I had in my pocket. And so I just listened to the wheels moving and I follow the wheels. When he stepped up, I stepped up. When he stepped down, I stepped down and I got to the car. And I finally got to the hotel and I felt like I can do this. And that was one of the very first challenges was just how do you get around and I realized that everything had to be choreographed. So I started to go to the same restaurants, I sit in the same seat and order the same food. Everything I did was choreographed. When I traveled, I would be very deliberate, intentional, to go very slowly, I plan in advance. You know, when I get to a country the first time, I first thing was most important thing was to find a taxi driver that I could trust. And so I would always have them waiting for me. When it came to my team, my team was something we never talked about, but my team would see that they knew something was wrong with my eyes. And I was very you know, loving to them and they protected me. I built a team around me based on the values that I thought was important and it really was about protecting my secret in my in my life. And that was about accountability, trust. And these were some of the core values that I built teams around and so when you have a good team like that, they're going to protect you. And so yeah you know, everything was choreographed. From my suitcase, even. So, when you look at the book of the cover, you'll see a yellow suitcase. And the yellow suitcase that I carried around the world was the contrast level, when you see the yellow suitcase on the conveyor belt, it was easy for me to see. So that was one thing, I kept ribbons on my suitcases. I could feel even to know where my suitcase is. There was lots of different techniques that I had to figure out. But it was an adventure.
So when you went out in your business meetings and say in Africa, did you go with your colleagues, or you essentially traveled alone.
So when I went to meetings, let's say in in Cameroon, I would often go with one or two members of my team. And then I had met a driver. When I was in the hotel, a lot of the taxi drivers were taking advantage of me. So when I came out one day, a taxi driver saw me come out and he was with another person in the car. And he stopped by he said, "go back into the hotel, I'll come get you". So I went back in and he came back, and his name was Blaze. And he never left my side after that. And so, Blaze, I brought him on when I got the company going, I brought him on full time. And so I joked and called him, he was my CTO, my chief transport officer. And so everywhere I went, I had Blaze next to me. And even after I left Cameroon, I bought him a laptop, got Skype installed, said he could always reach me. And even 10 years later, you know, I'd left 10 years ago, he still contacts me and that's one of those relationships that you cherish. And if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be able to do the work I do.
So when you came back to the US after your sojourn in Africa, what was your next move?
Yeah, that was really about doing my MBA. So I always had an idea of doing my MBA, but I never thought I would be able to get into an MBA program. One because of my grades. Two because of you know, my blindness. I thought colleges and universities would see it as liability. And three was just like, how would I be able to do the actual work. And, you know, as I mentioned, as I started you know, technology was getting so much better, there were inverted colors in the magnification software that now took care of that barrier. And when it came down to my grades, I had such a great work experience now, because there was not many people who could actually say that they actually started a company in Africa that made millions of dollars. And so I have now feel more comfortable. And when I went to GW George Washington University for my MBA I felt that there was a new level of confidence that I never had. And when I started opening up about my vision loss with my classmates, you know, they made it much easier for me to set me up for success. and it was great.
So you mentioned somewhere earlier today that you met your wife while you were at George Washington University. What's the story there, John?
Yeah, so my wife, Nicole was in the MBA program with me. And we were working on a project together. And so it was on foreign direct investments.
I thought project family.
No, not for project family *laughs* that's for economics. And we joke and say that we fell in love with reading the Wall Street Journal. So you know, when Nicole got to see me not as somebody who's just blind, not as somebody, you know, but she got to see me as a person. She saw the way I work, she saw me losing my sight, me being open about it. And so we decided, we had a conversation one day. And before we went on our first date, we said, "Is this worth it because we're friends? Is this worth us ruining a friendship over?" and we laid it on the ground, we laid on the table. I'm losing my sight, I'm going blind. Is it something you can handle? Right? And then she had her own stuff going on in her own life. And we talked about it. And we decided that this is something that is worth us going on a date. And we went out on our first date and, and she's been the best thing that ever happened.
So after your MBA, you joined- was it LCI that you joined? Or do you work somewhere else?
Yeah, I actually worked somewhere else. So when I was coming out of my MBA program, I was looking for jobs and I have all these phone interviews, and those were fantastic. And I was looking for leadership development programs at some of the top companies. And so, you know, I'd have to go through seven, eight rounds of interviews on the phone. And then they'd invite me to come out to visit them in person. But when they met me in person, I did not, I never disclosed that I couldn't see.
Yeah.
And so I struggled to advocate for myself. So during those interviews, it went like in person, it went really bad. Sometimes they- one instance, they left me, we were having lunch and they left meeting, I couldn't see where they went. And they weren't at the table. And I couldn't see I was left behind. Another time I asked them, if I could read the paper, instead of having a piece of paper, asked if I could read it on the iPad. It took me so long to read the content that the interviewer said there's not enough time for us to have the interview. We don't even have to have this. And they left me, right. So I had all of these like terrible situations. And I was so burned. And even during my MBA, I worked for TCS in Chennai. And even that I remember coming to my internship, I had the interview when I was in the US and with my boss in Chennai, and it was great. I came in to fill out my HR paperwork. And the HR person said, I could hear him on the phone. He's like, hold on one second. He went over, called my boss and he's blind, what are we gonna do with him, and the HR person sent me home. And I was like, oh my gosh, I came all the way from the US for this internship. Now you're telling me, I can't have the job. And my boss, he told me- he's like, if it's the same person who I interviewed, I want him even more now if he's blind. And so that was a really good feeling. But it's that HR person who was a gatekeeper who almost kicked me out of an amazing internship opportunity. And I think that was the same case that I was seeing when I was coming out of my MBA program was that people didn't know to how to deal with me, they weren't ready to set me up for success. And I eventually landed on my feet with a private equity firm that was focused on investing in companies and in Africa and other emerging markets and it was a good job. It was a startup, it was funded by the US government. But you know, at that time, I was so desperate for a job that I would take anything.
So you worked with a company called LCI, which is also quite known in the US for being disability friendly. And they do have a lot of visually impaired people working there. So tell us a little bit about the company and what was your role?
Yeah, so it took me a long time to find this company LCI. Because three years after working for that private equity firm, that company folded, and I was out of a job again and you know, the stress of it. My wife, Nicole and I, we're now married, we had a baby. And we had just built a house in the Washington, DC area. And all three of those things are not cheap. And so without a job, I didn't know what's gonna happen. And now the stress of everything caused my sight to go even faster. So before, as I mentioned, using the magnification software, and the inverted colors, none of that work for me anymore. And so I thought my career was over. And that's when I had heard about the software that was developed at a company called SAS, which is a data science company. And they had developed the software to help people who are blind and low vision, visualize graphs and charts using sounds, and I thought it was so cool. But the cool thing about it was that it was designed by a gentleman named Ed Summers who had retinitis pigmentosa as well, the same eye condition as me.
Yeah.
And he lived in my hometown of Cary, North Carolina. Same place I never thought anyone blind could ever lived. I tried for two, three months again to get in touch with him without any luck. And then finally, my wife said if he can live in North Carolina, maybe we can too. So we found a house online and we told my folks. My dad got so excited. He never thought I was coming home. My dad immediately jumped in the car to go look at this house. And as he's driving, he's talking to us on the phone. And he started yelling at something. And I was like, "what are you doing dad?" He's like there's a blind guy on the road, maybe it's the guy you're trying to get in touch with. He gets out of the car, walks over this poor guy and says, are you Ed Summers? And the guy says, yes, I am. And my dad puts a phone on his ear and I apologized to him and he agreed to meet me. And so I came down to North Carolina from Washington that next weekend, and he introduced me to the world of accessibility, and he showed me that my career was over. And he eventually introduced me to the President LCI, which LCI is a largest employer of people who are blind in the United States. And they're a manufacturing company. And when I met with the President at the time, Jeffrey Harding, he was talking about creating technology based jobs for people who are blind and want to start this new business. And so that's how I ended up joining them.
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Why was the company actually interested in blind people? Was Jeffery Harding himself visually impaired by any chance?
No, actually nobody, only one person on the senior leadership team of LCI actually had a visual impairment. But the LCI was actually formed 86 years ago by a nonprofit organization called Lions Club. And so Lions Club started this is called Lions Club Industries. And it was formed because there were people in downtown Durham, North Carolina who were blind and begging. And so this volunteer organization wanted to create opportunities for people who are blind to have employment. And so they first started jobs with making wicker or cane furniture. And eventually that moved to making mattresses for the US government, military during the World War 2. And since then, they now make over 2500 products.
Wow! And after that you started your own company.
So when I joined LCI, I was tasked with creating technology based jobs for people who are blind. And given my own lived experiences of challenges I faced from accessibility to people's mindsets about about me, I realized that there are some things, some systemic barriers we had to address. And so I first launched the digital accessibility business. And the whole task was to make digital content accessible for people using assistive technologies, like screen readers, which I use now.
Yeah.
And so that business we started off as LCI Tech, and we started creating this accessibility business. And we had around 5-6 people on the team. We were doing small projects, primarily working with the arts organizations, like theaters or museums. And I had also gotten quite involved in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space, which is quite popular here in the US now really about making more inclusive workplaces. And I was at this tech conferenc, where I heard this gentleman Donald Thompson speaking. And he was a tech entrepreneur and investor. And he was talking about the business case for diversity. And he offered me over for coffee. And I jumped at the opportunity. And when I met with Donald, he admitted to me, he's like, I never thought about people with disabilities in tech. And I never thought about people with disabilities in diversity, equity and inclusion. And so he started having members of his teams come to meet me, and one of those people with a gentleman named Mike Iaconelli, and he and I, we decided to create a joint venture between LCI and one of Donald Thompson's company, and that's what formed Ablr. And so that's where now I'm the co founder and CEO.
And so how do you actually go about finding business? Meaning do people come to you or you have to go out and look for it?
It started off us really hustling and grinding to find new customers. And so sometimes it's still the same case. But I often go and speak and I do different presentations. And that's been a good way for us to get new clients and over the last two years, we brought on 65 new clients and some notable brands such as Ping Golf, and Manscaped, which is a new grooming company and many others that ranging from e-commerce to museums to education. And now we have even some Fortune 500 companies. And the coolest thing is that they're coming to us now, which is really exciting. But that's just on the digital accessibility side. We also created a disability inclusion training module, which we're now rolling out within the North Carolina Community College systems office, which is really exciting. And just last week, we actually signed a contract with the state of North Carolina to create a workforce development program to get people who are blind into tech jobs, which I'm super excited about.
Well, Johnny it's wonderful that you could spend time talking to me today and wish you the very best as you move on with your family and with your various plans and all the best for your book launch.
Thank you so much, George. I'm so thankful to be here and this was so great.
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