Radical Massage Therapist Podcast - Lisa F1 240925

2:25PM Dec 12, 2024

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

professional interviews

clinic ownership

first impressions

transparency issues

researching clinics

hands-on treatment

communication skills

follow-up etiquette

red flags

positive energy

continuing education

flexible hours

resume importance

job search platforms

clinic reputation

Hello radical massage therapist, and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. I'm your host, Krista, registered massage therapist and clinic owner in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Lucky for you. I am not the radical massage therapist, but you are. You want to learn more about the benefits of a massage career, such as freedom, flexibility, financial success and fun inside and outside the career. I hope these episodes will inspire you to create a really awesome life around a sustainable massage career. My guest today is Lisa D'Souza, RMT and clinic owner at Savannah massage therapy. She has been an RMT for 18 years and a clinic owner for six years now. Most of her career. She worked alongside physiotherapist and osteopaths. Early in her career, she was fortunate enough to work with dancers who competed at the World Irish dance championships in Ireland. Our conversation today revolves around being professional in interviews and what to look for in a clinic, and sort of what we as clinic owners are looking for. So I hope you enjoyed this interview with Lisa. Hi, Lisa. Welcome to the radical massage therapist podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat with you. We are. We're like a rare I feel like when people say they meet people on line, it's like, oh yeah, that's really nice, but I don't really feel like it actually happens, but it's been really lovely to connect with you on Instagram as a fellow clinic owner and just be able to share about our experiences without, like, any judgment and without any just concern, Like, because we're also in separate cities. There's just no concern about, like, how small things can be sometimes when your own own a business. So it's really, really nice. I'm very grateful for your long distance friendship as a fellow clinic owner,

yeah, likewise, it's definitely helpful having somebody to bounce ideas off of and as a clinic owner yourself, kind of we get each other?

Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to get you to share a little bit about how you became a clinic owner. This interview, or like, this chat is really just going to be about. We wanted to talk about how how to be professional in interviews. When you are looking for a job as a massage therapist and you're looking to work with a clinic or whatever environment you're looking at, we have kind of seen some common, common things, and we have some fun stories. And so we just wanted to share this with the audience to help you become better at at interviews or at being more professional when you are looking for a career. So can you share how you became a clinic owner? It's been six years for you?

Yes. So I always worked alongside physios, Kairos, athletic therapists, osteos, in sort of bigger settings and just decided I needed a challenge. I loved what I do, but just needed something more. And so just started small, renting around, hired my first therapist. While I was we were just I shared the room with her, and then progressively, both were busy, needed biggest space, moved to biggest space. And then, yeah, kind of where we are now. I believe we're seven. There eight therapists and front desk staff. So it's been a journey. It's been a challenge, but it's been it's been great. Yeah,

that's really great. I love and I encourage massage therapists. If they ask me about clinic ownership, I love that approach of, you know, starting in your own room, hiring another massage therapist, just kind of getting that feel for what it's like to work with another individual, Manage Another individual's time, and also can then just learn if you need to expand, instead of going big first and then and then, sort of being left with all of this, this empty space. Do you remember how other than So, how did this first massage therapist come, come to find you and work with you in that, that one treatment room?

I believe it was through Facebook, a Facebook ad, and they were just interested in because it was a small, small clinic, literally just me, and yes, still with me to to this day. So it's been a great, great first person to hire on. And, yeah, it's, it's been awesome, wonderful.

Yeah, so for, I'll just share a little bit about from my experience as a clinic owner with the listeners. I was very fortunate that when I became a clinic owner, I was already working with align for quite some time, and when I became a clinic owner of an align, I was obviously the, the main, the main one. Only one. But when they announced that we were opening this other location, other massage therapists from a line inquired if they could also pick up hours at this location. So that was really encouraging for me as a business owner. You know, you really kind of just go in with the mindset like, this might just be me. For me, I just thought it was gonna be me for, like, a year, for sure, and I was just gonna gonna make it work. But when those other massage therapists and practitioners decided to sign on, that was, was really encouraging. And so that was sort of how, like, I found my first two colleagues there at the location? Do you have a specific order that you want to go through? Some of these do's and don'ts, and some of the the examples that we have for how to be professional in interviews and when looking for for a massage career play location

and no no particular order. Yeah, just hoping to share some recent experiences that I've had, interviewing and do's and don'ts and, yeah, I've learned a lot just from the experience of so far. So hopefully this will help. Yeah, new RMTS and

existing ones too, because we're also finding that some, some are, are still needing that, that little bit of guidance. I mean, I might also, just before we even get started. Do you feel like maybe some of that unprofessionalism, or that just sort of like it just, it comes from a place of like we we need, we need massage therapists to work at our clinic. And they kind of know, they kind of know that they can go anywhere, and they know that they're going to have a place, because we're in high demand. There's fewer of us than There are clinics and and demand for for the treatments is, do you feel like that might be part of the attitude that's coming at it?

I think absolutely. And I think, yeah, there are dime a dozen, and we as clinic owners are struggling to hire and find the right fit. And I yeah, I do think they definitely know that, and I think that comes into play a little bit too when they're discussing splits and caps, and you know what, what the pay structure is, and kind of pushing for the higher end, in my opinion, because they know we're kind of desperate for for therapists, for sure. Yeah, okay,

but desperate doesn't always, I wouldn't say think we're, we're ready to hire. We want them on our team, but that doesn't mean that we'll just take anybody, either. No, right? And I also feel like using some of this, the advice that we share in this episode, might also just help you stand apart from some of the the others, like, we understand, like you could go anywhere and have a career, but at the same time, you know, just, there's just that little bit of edge that, if it can set you apart, then you'll be a much more pleasant lesson person to to work with. So on that note, I've got first impressions and why they matter. So some are some common mistakes maybe massage therapists are making during their first interaction, either on the phone or in person. And how can they make a strong first impression?

Yeah, I think it's definitely important to have a good, strong first impression, because that's what your clients are going to be doing, too, and they are new to especially if it's a first visit or just your first time meeting somebody. And I think definitely showing up on time, if you're in person, if you're on the phone, being able to hold a conversation and not just sort of have silent gaps of and not leading the conversation or asking questions and having that kind of back and forth over the phone, can be different verse in person and then showing Up, sort of presenting yourself, how you would dress or show up or work on your day to day. So yeah, yeah,

I agree with with that, like professional appearance and being on time, whether it's for the for the call or for showing up in person on time, because that does reflect how you're going to show up for your clients. And I wrote down, like, enthusiasm. And I don't mean like, people need to be like, over the top, but like, you know, I want to learn about, like, why are you a massage like, why are you a massage therapist? Why are you interested? And I don't want, like, to say anything to be fake, but like. You know, you should have a little bit of like energy behind the conversation, or behind your your interaction with that individual as well. Again, because that comes off in your treatments as well. So we don't have a uniform at a line. So I agree that showing up essentially, like how you would show up to your day to day is important. Do you have any kind of uniform at at your clinic?

We don't, and most of the therapists, and I think it started more during COVID or wearing scrubs, but we, yeah, we don't really. I've never had an issue with therapists showing up, sort of inappropriate. So yeah, so far. So good.

Excellent. Anything else that you would add to to first impressions, maybe even from like an email that they're sending like, are do most people sending you an email inquiring, are they walking into your clinic? Are they just dropping a phone call?

I would say most are sending an email. So yeah, I would make sure to have that as professionally written and not sending it like a text. Um, information, why? Why you want to join the clinic? What interested you in the post or the career posting? And so, yeah, keep it. Keep it short to the point, but not too short and big and lacking something that would grab my attention and think, you know, I really want to talk to this person in person or follow up with them. Yeah,

yeah, excellent. Okay, again, no particular order, but the fine line between transparency and over sharing essentially how much personal information is too much during an interview, and how can RMTS maintain professionalism while also being honest? And so have you had any experiences where there's some over sharing either about past experiences or current circumstances and and how we can sort of create a boundary around you know, we want to know maybe why they're choosing our clinic and why they're leaving one, but how can we also be professional about about that discussion?

Yeah, I've definitely had an interview where there was oversharing to a point where it's valuable information, but maybe not information that you want to give away at an interview, and the comment was that they were fired from their last job just because they were complaining too much. So sometimes that's good to know as a business owner, but also maybe something that you wouldn't necessarily share right off the bat in an interview, and then bringing in personal sort of, I would say schedule conflicts. You know, I've had situations where maybe it's a mom returning to work after I'm giving birth, and now is trying to find a schedule that works for their family dynamic, and if the other partner or spouse is working as a therapist, we're fortunate enough that you can create a schedule that works for both of you. But again, don't bring in the employer into your nitty gritty information about well, my spouse doesn't want me to work this hours, but I told them that I had to. And so stuff like that is maybe a little bit of a red flag, perhaps, for for hiring.

Yeah, I like, I like that. I mean, as a business owner, I mean, it's always interesting when they, when they would share with you that, like I was fired from my last job because and and looking into that a bit further is is always worth it, because, you know, like, there is obviously some attitude there about the past location and did that really happen, or now, are they sort of playing the like the victim, and so it is. It is really interesting also to know those, you know the reason why, like, they were complaining, and again, looking into it a little bit more. Would, would that be something in that situation, would you contact the previous clinic to kind of see what the deal was?

If I if everything. Else in the interview went really well, then yes, probably would, and hoping to find out more information. And you know, see, yeah, I probably would in that situation, yeah,

just kind of see what the actual vibe was. But it sounds like the vibe wasn't good actually in the interview. So you didn't feel like you needed to go any further researching the clinic and what to know before you walk in. So why is it important for a massage therapist to research a clinic before the interview? And what kind of questions should they they ask? I've got some some ideas here, but what about you? So

I do have, I did have one case where they showed up her name, I believe it was an osteopath. And was a bit upset that we didn't have the physio at the clinic, physio Cairo, which I don't believe I had ever disclosed that we did. And I would think that if you were interested in applying for a job, then perhaps that would be something to do. If it is something that, if it's a provider that you want to work alongside, we only have massage therapists, reflexology and naturopath so if I were looking to work with physios or chiros, I probably would go to a website check before applying and showing up for an interview, and then kind of being disappointed that that they aren't there to work alongside,

yeah, in that circumstance. I mean, my immediate instinct is like, Oh, well, do you know any that that might be looking as well as put the responsibility back on, back onto them, like, Okay, well, this is important to you. Then, then, do you know anybody? Yeah, and from anything else that that you might Other than that, example, anything else that you want to share about that researching the clinic and what to know before you walk in, I

think it's important to know what services are being held or provided too, if you are specializing in cranial or lymphatic drainage or acupuncture, and maybe that you want that to be a niche, and you'll be the only one in the clinic that provides that, perhaps to research that as well, because then you are coming into a clinic that Perhaps that services being offered already, maybe by multiple therapists, so it won't make you really stand out, if that's what you're sort of aiming for.

That's it. That's a good one. I mean, it, it has occurred in my clinic as well. I mean, so many of us do have crossover with our skill set, and then some of us do have more of a niche. And yeah, it has happened before where one was quite, quite upset that I had hired another practitioner who had the same sort of niche. That was I had admitted that it was a bit of my responsibility to do my research on that individual, because I was hiring them for another skill set, and just found out that they also had, you know, this other little, like, you know, niche. So I, you know, I admitted my mistake there, but it did create quite a, quite a little ruckus in the the clinic for a little bit, which, which has been handled. Because I do feel that everybody has space. I believe an abundance. I believe that everybody like the more, the more variety in personality as well can make a big difference. It's not just the skill set. There has to be a good fit of a personal a personal connection there as well. So just having that option is is really great. So yeah, I don't see it as a disadvantage, but I agree that if the practitioner coming in wants that to be, like they want to be the only one, then, yeah, they can do their their research. I also made a note that, like, I feel that it's also important for the clinics, as you mentioned, you don't remember, like, saying that there was a physio or anything like that. So it's not really like you know your concern, but I feel that it is important for clinics to give as much information as possible in their advertising, because the demand is so high. I feel that if you can separate yourself in your advertising initially and really lay it all out there as best as you can. So if you're feel comfortable giving this split and obviously like, what, what you're looking for, maybe even potentially the hours that are available at that particular time, I feel like if the clinics can give that up front, then that will also save time on our part, and we also won't waste therapists time if they are looking for something very, very specific, like, if they're going to come at us with a demand for a higher split, and we've made it very clear in that advert that, like, we're offering a different split, then you know that it's kind of like, then you can kind of say, well, you didn't do you didn't read. You didn't read properly. So that might be another little bit of a like a red red flag on the individual as well. Would you agree with that, or do you still kind of like to leave a little bit of mystery in the in the advertising? Um,

so I believe I do have on our website, um, a PDF that I created that does do what you just explained, gives a pretty detailed outline of what to expect at the clinic, what we offer, what we don't offer. I'm not 100% sure if I had the the split pay out in there. I have pictures of the clinic so they know what the space looks like, so I would probably recommend something like that so that it does give, yeah, it doesn't waste the therapist time. It doesn't waste your time interviewing them if they want a specific look at a clinic or service that maybe you don't offer. So I do agree with that. Yeah,

I love that you've created a PDF and put that on your website like it's, it's free access. You're not, you know, you're not hiding it. And again, it just kind of shows like, how dedicated is this individual to wanting to work with you and to really feel like they belong in that space, because they've had to do, you know, click a couple times to to dig down and to find that, but you're also making it very obvious up front. I love that. I would also say for myself, it does help to manage those expectations. So I would, I would love to create, perhaps a PDF that that I could send out as well, just because sometimes managing those expectations, like in an interview, you know, I've just said something pretty casual, like, we, you know, here, like, obviously, we have to take care of our own treatment room, make sure that it's, it's clean and safe, not only for our clients, but for the next therapist that's treating. And I said, you know, and once in a while, if there's a little job that can be done, we really appreciate it if you know, like, if you can sweep the floor, or if you can you know, like, you know, like, wipe the water off of the sink in the bathroom. Oh, no, I'm, I'm an independent contractor, and I'm not doing any of that well. Thank you very much. And we don't, we will, not be hearing from me again, because it's and it's, it's not a demand, because they are an independent contractor, and they, I cannot make them do these things. But just that attitude up front and the, you know, just not wanting to be a team player, like, not wanting to clean, like, have a clean and tidy space, like, it's just, it just, was like, just blew my mind. I was like, well, thank you. Thank you very much. Actually, one of my other colleagues had, like, overheard her say that. She was like, did she and I was like, yep. She's like, okay, so, oh, dear, that was always a good, a good one. In relation, still, this is a good, this is a good, a good one here. But in researching the clinic, some of the feedback that I've also heard from other clinic owners is, like, find out the name of the owner and or the office manager or the clinic manager, or even, like, just somebody, like, somebody there that you can connect to. I mean, how many emails have you received, or even a resume with, like, a cover letter that's like, oh, like To Whom It May to whom it may concern, or to clinic owner or, you know, hiring manager, yeah, okay, fair enough. But just that little bit extra, just shows like you care a little bit about this, this location, by actually putting looking into the clinic owners name, and I think it's pretty obvious on websites these days with, with where you're applying. Have you had any like therapists talk to each other with, when it comes to maybe somebody being hired at your clinic? Did they? Did they communicate with another therapist beforehand, saying, like, oh, like, I've heard this is a really good place to work, or I was thinking about it. I talked to so and so and like, they kind of, you know, they made, they gave me, gave me peace of mind about it. Has that ever happened for you? I have

just yesterday, a interesting scenario, and looking reflecting back on it, I see where I could have maybe prevented it, but I realized how small sort of the massage industry is, and you do have to be very careful of bad mouthing a clinic or a therapist, because you never know who's in front of you who they know. But in this case, it was hiring two therapists that are in the same field. I graduated maybe a semester or two apart. I happened to mention that I had these two resumes and was going to decide whether I wanted to bring one on or Bucha. Both and one participant, decided that they would reach out to the other therapist that I was interviewing, and just took it upon themselves to create a schedule that would work for the two of them if they both were hired, and I had not hired, either of them still working with the schedule, seeing what the clinic would need do we have enough clients to bring both on, because you also don't want to work at a clinic that you're both sitting and you have nobody to because so I thought that was just really interesting, and perhaps I should Never have mentioned the name of the other interview, I I just know it's a small net world, and they would have known each other anyway, so I wouldn't do that on my end, but also on the other end, I guess I was trying to be maybe too transparent, because Initially I was only going to bring on one practitioner in this field and shared that information that then kind of got taken advantage of, but I too am a little bit to blame as

well. Yeah, yeah, it's a learning, learning opportunity, for sure. Yeah, another like, as for that, talking to therapist, example, I have definitely reached out to massage therapists who I knew had worked at particular locations before to get their feel for it. Even one of them had nothing good to say in that circumstance, I still went ahead with it, because I knew I knew myself and I knew what I was getting into. And it, it, you know, it was, it was a good, a good run, but it was really interesting. I was really glad that I connected with this individual just to get their their feedback. And it might sound silly, like, oh my god, like, why would you get all that negative feedback and still, still go for it? Like I said, I knew I knew myself, it was a really great opportunity, and I knew I could at least know that much going in, that I was a little bit better prepared for the circumstances. And lastly, but like when I first started to work with a line, I was sitting in the waiting room waiting for my interview, and I happened to see another practitioner that I had known, you know, in the community, and so she kind of saw me, said hi, after my interview, she sent me an email and said, like, I don't, I don't know if your thing, like, if you have other options, but this clinic is amazing. You know, the owner is wonderful. She actually, I think she called her a peach, which was really sweet, I still remember that from the email, and so it was really nice. Just like, a nice inviting, like, you know, if you choose to work here, like, it's going to be amazing, I'm, you know, I would love for you to work here. That was, that was really sweet as well. So if you have those opportunities, I agree to reach out attitude and professionalism. Red flags for employers, we kind of touched on a few of them. But do you have any any particular red flags that you might that might be raised other than kind of what we talked about? I

think one scenario that did happen, not looking back, is the pretty red, big red flag, and is bringing drama from other clinics and asking the employer that you are sitting with with an interview questions about other clinics. I don't think that is very professional to do. Again small world, you have to be careful what you say, what information you share or don't share, and I don't think you should be going to other clinics to find out gossip about where else you've interviewed or potentially going to hire for. And then I would say communication back and forth prior leading up to an interview, make sure you're responding to emails as best as you can, or sort of in a timely fashion. I know everyone's busy, that better to respond than just ignore and disappear. Yeah,

I've had some feedback from other clinic owners as well that, yeah, they just ghost you, you know, and that's fine. If you've already found another location. This might even be something I'd had for a later question, but I'll skip over it next time. But like, yeah, if, even if you found another location, that's wonderful. We're not mad. And, you know, it's, it's just nice for if we are reaching out, seeing if you are still interested or or to even like guest schedule, like a click, you kind of said you wanted to. So we're like scheduling like a come in and and check it out, kind of, let's work on your schedule. And then you just completely disappear. Just let them know that the. That you found another location. You don't even have to say the name of that clinic if you don't want to. But again, it is a small community, and something small like that can just, you know, kind of set you, set you up with some difficulties later on, if you ever did have to return to that clinic, every circumstance is a little bit a little bit different, yeah. So that was, you know, like, I agree with, like, if they're complaining about, like, their past clinic, and maybe just trying to get a little bit of more information from you about it, a comparison is okay. Like, if you have, like, you know, they made us work on Sundays until 10pm like, are you gonna make me do that? Like, that's a reasonable question. And then you're finding out a little bit more information about the other clinic. But, you know, I think there, there is some professional boundary there, for sure, positive communication. You know, I think we've, we've led into this. How can an RMT communicate effectively and professionally during an interview, even when discussing challenges in previous roles? Anything you would add to to positive communication, nothing

that comes to mind. But I think again, the way you communicate in your interview is a bit of a window into how you're going to communicate with your clients. And essentially, that's what you're doing, and that's what your job is, being able to communicate with people and people that are in pain, or, you know, have a lot going on, and so, yeah, it's important to to be able to have that.

Yeah, no, I agree. You know, maintaining, like, a positive tone and offering solutions rather than further, you know, further complaints if, if you're not happy with the way that the state, let's say you're finding that the majority of clinics are doing something a certain way. I'm totally open to offering a potential solution. Instead of the complaint.

I cut a little bit of a note, like, just it's helpful to like, I said, No, the differences what Clea chief clinic, each clinic can offer. But are the complaints actually about the clinic? Like, if you can, like, as an interviewer, like, if as a clinic owner, you kind of have to listen to this person's has a lot to say about this other clinic. But is it that they it's that the clinic was being unreasonable, or did they just not? They just not want to follow, you know, some simple, simple guidelines of the of the clinic as well. Was it really the clinic being unreasonable, or is it them that's just just a bit unreasonable with the expectations? What about follow up etiquette? Do's and don'ts? What are the best practices for following up after an interview, and how can RMTS ensure they stand out in a positive way?

I think it's always good to send a follow up email. You know, thank you for your time. Great meeting. You maybe point out a few things that you liked about the clinic, or about how the clinics run, or sort of the future of working there, I think a big don't it's just no no follow up,

Yep, yeah. And as I said earlier, like this was where I had, like, my don't ghost the clinic, don't burn bridges. It's going to be normal to have lots of like, maybe even further questions that you didn't get answered in the interview, and so feel free to send those in an email if that's important to you before you start. I highly recommend that, and I've tried to compile all of the questions that I I've had after the interview, clearly showing that, like I'm not, I'm not doing my part by sort of to make things clear, you also don't have a lot of time. I feel like you don't want to take up too much of their time, in case it isn't for them, but you are trying to get a feel for who they are. What would you say in like, the average time of an interview is for you, if you're setting aside, setting aside time, well,

it's interesting. You say that wasting time, because I have had a scenario where it was probably a minute interview. They came in suggested a really, really high split because they felt they deserved it, and I said no, and that was enough for them to not really, you know, be willing to work with me. So I'd say, from, you know, a minute to sometimes a half an hour at most, I would say, but yeah, you're. Usually 15 minutes, I would is a good time. Then it's not just dragging on or and then it there are usually those follow up questions that are always good to have in an email after,

yeah, do you do? This is always a good debate. But like, do you do a hands on session as part of the interview.

So it's interesting I don't. And the biggest reason why I shouldn't say the biggest reason, a reason why I don't Is I remember when I had just graduated and going for an interview, and I remember I did do a hands on treatment, and the lady said to me, oh, that's how you start your treatment. And I thought, well, I Yes. So I think it's always stuck in my mind. And we all treat differently. We all start our treatment. It's funny, because ever since that interview, I had worked with any other massage therapist and they started their treatment differently. And to this day, I start it differently than I did that day, and I did the insurance. And I also feel that I may not particularly like their style, but the style of treatment may be a great fit for the next 10 clients that are going to come through the door. So I feel too, and I know myself when I would do the hands I was nervous, and I don't think that's how I treat when I'm in a room with just my clients. So I think it can give a false treatment style, good or bad, I guess. So, yeah, do you?

So we do, and it's on the guidance of like of Jana, who owns a line. She has some great feedback on the reasons why we do one. We do it at the same time as the interview. So if you feel like things are going well, we ask them if they can do hands on right at that time. She says, if you do ask them to come back. They probably won't. And I, and I understand there's some there, and in her experience, there has been some like, oh, like, Well, you got to pay me for it. Well, no, this is part of the the interview process. And for them, that was enough for them to, like, not want to continue. But then also, Janice says, Have you? Have you ever really been evaluated by a professional? Like, you know, we have more than 1010, years, like, under, under our belt, like, I'm at 18. What are you at? I also ate 18 years too. Yeah. So, you know, for somebody who's new, you know, it can be some great, great feedback. Jana has also said that, like she has had a very nervous massage therapist work on her, that her hands were like shaking during the massage. Was that because of Jana, maybe. But was it? Maybe that's how nervous she is in regular treatments, you know? So she just, Jana just encouraged her to get more hands on time, not at a line, but working with a spa or somewhere that was just more of a like relaxation base. Just get your hands on bodies and get comfortable. I like to get the hands that hands on treatment in the interview again, just to get a feel for what their style is like. As you said, they might not be something that I enjoy, but I get a feel for what their style is like, and now, as Jana would say, I'm stealing her words. I can sell them. I can sell them to the right client and get get them with the type of treatment that they need. So that's another, another way that that we do it as somebody, what I don't think is expected. I say, if you, if we do this, if you do the 30 minutes or like 20 or 30 minute treatment with me, you get you come on board. I will also give you a 30, a 30 minute treatment, you know, just as a nice trade. And I like to do that. And some of them, it takes them months to go, come around and get that massage from me. But I just kind of offer that as, like, a little like, I know you feel like it's a sacrifice, but it is part of the interview. I mean, like, I'm not comparing us to Google, but like, I'm sure they put them through a harder, like, coding process or some kind of mind puzzle before they get into, like, before they go through to the next round. So I'm trying to get away from that like, feeling of like, Oh, it's too much to ask, because it is valuable information for us, and it just depends on the circumstances. Like, I don't want somebody to give me a massage if they a massage. If they don't feel like this is going to be the the right place for them, let's not, let's not waste, you know, your time giving me a valuable hands on time. But yeah, we do for those, those reasons, which I've adapted from, from Jana. Now I've. With so many massage therapists from a line that maybe if I've never had a massage from them, even if they're inquiring about working in my space, I don't get a treatment from them, they're just ringing like I know that they've already been sort of vetted by another clinic owner. So So yeah, we do. And I said, like it is a debate. You know, some massage therapists really don't mind it. I've always done one in almost all of my my interviews. I've even done a one hour treatment before, and that didn't even like, and I didn't even like follow through with like, I showed up, actually the first day, they didn't even have me on the schedule, and I was like, Thanks, I'm gonna come. So I still, like, I provided all of that. You know, I did all the legwork, and still the clinic didn't follow through on that,

talking about sort of different but I know sometimes when we've hired therapists like our studio or reflexology, where now it's not a lot of people know exactly what those therapies are, that they've recommended that receptionist or your front desk staff get a treatment with them so that they can sell that service, and that gives them a better understanding of what what it is and what the treatment entails. Yeah,

I love that idea as well. And then encourage that my colleagues to to do the same, so that if a client does ask, Hey, you have reflexology at this clinic, what is that like? If it depends like, I don't want it like, it depends on the attitude of the therapist, whether they like, agree with the treatments or not as well, but I at least like to speak from personal experience, and that helps your front desk staff. That's really important and a great a great tip as well. Anything in particular that you would you feel like massage therapists need to ask in an interview that they're not asking? What? Yeah, questions to ask or not ask in an interview,

I did have a question, which, at the time I thought, well, that was an odd question, but I don't think it was strange. Looking back on it, is asking, When last did a clinic hire somebody? So again, you may, as a business owner, be totally transparent and explain exactly why people have left your clinic or why you haven't hired in a long time. But I think that is, I don't get that question often, but I think it is a good one to ask and then things like, you know, what happens if? If so, our clinic has front desk staff every day, but sometimes, if somebody's sick or has a family emergency, there's nobody there. So asking questions, what happens on those days when there's a receptionist? Are you responsible as a therapist to check your client in and take payment? Rebooking or not? You know if you are, which most of us are a contractor. Is the clinic open on public holidays? If not, are you still allowed to work? Will they be front desk? So stuff like that, that are that you may, may affect your income, because you're me, if you're working on a Monday, and typically those are days that the clinic is closed, I and I think you had touched on it earlier, just knowing your responsibility. So again, if there is no front desk, staff and laundry is not being done, are you responsible for it? Are you not? Do you need to check in another therapist client? Do you have that the door open so things like that, just so that you're clear. And, as you said, your expectations, you know, prior than, Oh, there's nobody here, and I don't know what to do, or I didn't sign up for this.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, definitely, definitely important. I love that. That question from that therapist who asked, like, when was the last time you hired? Or what was the reason why the last practitioner left? Are you able to elaborate just for listeners? Maybe why? That might be an important question.

I guess it's important to know just because, did they leave because they weren't getting enough clients? Were they not happy because there was conflict with a team member. So thankfully, in my situation, most of it's been just moving to different provinces, different cities, different countries. If you're hiring or you're going to a clinic that has a bit of a revolving door, which does happen, and life happens sometimes that might give you red flags as to or this might not be a good fit for me?

Yeah, I agree. If there is just seems to be a lot of high turnover, either because the you've asked that and the person hiring is being honest, that's great, or if you've kind of asked around, or noticed a few massage therapists have, like, left on. You know, quite frequently from a particular clinic, that is definitely a red flag. And I also, I've done it another episode that kind of touched on, like, if you're the owner of this clinic that keeps noticing, like, your therapists are leaving, maybe take a little look at like, reasons why, and just, you know, it'll only help your business something. I don't know if it can be applied, but how to showcase experience without sounding entitled. So I feel like you have an example of somebody sort of challenging you about hiring somebody with less experience.

Yeah. So I was asked, because, I guess it happened in an interview at another clinic that they were asking me, why would that clinic hire somebody who is not yet registered, versus themself, who I think maybe had a year in practice, weird question to get, especially when it's asking in an interview to work at my clinic, but it's about an interview they had, and, yeah, it's a, I don't know what happened in that interview at The other clinic, and it could just be a vibe that they prefer. You know from the other interview that they had, perhaps that girl or that person disclosed that they are going to go into a menu or lymphatic drainage or cranial and maybe the you didn't say that you had any continuing educational goals or so? Yeah, really weird question. And, yeah, that definitely doesn't give a good impression, not

quite the same example. But I've definitely, I'll be transparent that I have left a clinic before, because I found out that they, I was working there for a year, and they hired, they didn't really give us any guidelines as to how you can earn more or, you know, get a higher split. You just, you know, I'm sometimes, I'm just accept things as they are, kind of person. And so I had found out that after working there for a year, they hired somebody new, had a bit of a personal connection to that individual, and they were now making a higher split. So I sort of felt a little bit miffed that like, you know, the I get you have that personal connection, maybe they come at it with more experience. I don't know whether the but, you know, at the same time, you have practitioners here have been working with you for a year, and so that that was obviously the last, you know, straw. There was probably, and there were, like, other things that led up to that. And at that point, I was like, Well, you know, that doesn't really seem fair to me. And and I gave them that reason, and they didn't, you know, they didn't have any explanation or desire to to keep me. So, yeah, it was just an easy an easy leave, an understanding of what employers are really looking for. So from a clinic owner's perspective, what qualities are you looking for in an RMT during an interview, or maybe, like, you know, the ideal candidate to work with you and what? What are some go beyond skills and experience?

Yeah, I would say just a good energy, positive energy, enthusiastic, loves what they do wants to help people, not just in it for money or for, you know, getting the highest split or the most bang for their buck, or working because we charge out, say, $150 an hour versus So, yeah, just kind of somebody Who wants to help people, I would say, is my biggest thing, and then have a bit of a drive to take continuing education. It doesn't necessarily have to be the full bot or training or full app ledger Institute, but just do something to build those tools in your toolbox or add value to not just the clinic, but to your own practice, so that and to your own clients.

Yeah, like, the drive is really important to better yourself, to want to stand out in the profession a little bit more, just for personal growth and just to Yeah, like, learn, learn new skills. I would also say that because massage therapy is in such high demand, it's so easy to walk into a clinic these days and have a full schedule, because you and your clinic and the reputation have done all of the leg work for them, and that really is not how it used to be. So it's really easy to just. To start and have a full schedule, have great income, which is really rewarding. But I also like if there is a little bit of that personal drive there to, you know, to draw, to draw new clients in, obviously the rebooking treatment like creating treatment plans, like, if there is that energy behind it as well, that they are like a somewhat of a go like go getter at the same time, I find it really hard. We have a very diverse clinic, so I feel like we're doing things very, very well in that respect. But it's hard not to hire people that are exactly like you or not hard not to want to hire therapists who are exactly like you. So when I get that energy, when, like, I meet somebody, I'm like, Oh, my God, you're just like, like, that's like, exactly like, how what I would say, or like, that's how I would think, or all this is how I would treat. I try to, like, dial it back and just like, not. I mean, it's not that I don't hire them, but I really try to go for that diversity, like if I've hired three of mes already, then maybe it's time to find somebody, find somebody new. And we do have a diverse group of different personalities and treatment styles, which I think is really important and beneficial. But how do you like? Have you had sort of that experience as well, where you like? Because hiring a lot of means is is great, but also not really a variety for the therapy or the clients.

I try. I don't know that I hire that I feel are similar to me, but I try to hire that will be somebody who will fit in with everybody else in the clinic, at the least, like, I don't know when they start, if it's actually going to work there. That way, maybe I hire them if they can get along with me, then I assume they can get along with everybody else, because we tried to keep, like you said, we have a pretty diverse clinic too, but there's very limited drama, which I've been there done that don't need to do it again. So, yeah, maybe I hire based on that. Like, if you can get along with me and I can get along with you, then we're likely going to be a good team. That you're there's going to be conflict, there's going to be personalities that don't gel, but I think for the most part, it's just respecting that you're different and it's okay, yeah,

and we all do have to get along in this, like, shared, shared space, right? Exactly, would you say there's sort of a, like, a maybe unspoken, like, probation period for a therapist, then, like, if they come on board, because you could be perfect in the interview, and then true colors start to come out, you know, maybe three months down the line, or their clients are not rebooking with them, and you kind of go, okay, like, what's what's going on here? Do you Do you have sort of that probation period, especially since you know you don't do the hands on, hands on in the interview, maybe there is some feedback that would come in from from clients that would would not be as as positive, and it could happen even if you do a hands on interview as well. But yeah, do you have sort of a timeline? I

don't know that I have a timeline, but I definitely, I think I've only had to let go one therapist, and that was because over, I forget how long they had worked there, for at least a few years, just had, over the time, gotten negative feedback from clients. And then there was just one, one I thought, You know what? I've given it enough chances that it's not going to get better, and it's just who they are. And so I don't really have a timeline, but I try my best not to let it go too far. And if, if it's a lack of clients rebooking, I would revisit and it was something I can do to help them, or is it something they are doing in the treatment or not doing that, causing that lack of retention, that's really

great. What about would you like? It's like 11 out of like, I've had like, 10 questions, and I threw an 11th one in there. Are you finding that resumes are still quite common, and should that be, like, important for for when you apply, not just an email, Hey, like, I'd like to work at your clinic, that's great. But are you getting resumes? So

I, I am, and I have, and it's interesting, actually, because I recently got a resume. They are registered healthcare provider and but nowhere on the resume. Did it say where they were working? So when I Googled their name and their profession, oh, they are working. How come you didn't put that on your resume? I kind of had to search for it. So I would say that's really important if you are currently working or have worked somewhere in the past, totally. Least put that in there, and then in terms of because most times some people are applying on Indeed, is they forget to change the name of the company that they're sending their resume to, so it's going to the wrong clinic. So just you're checking your work, checking your resume, putting your your experience on there. Great

you just mentioned indeed, and that was one of my little side notes as well. Is like, how and where should massage therapists look for these opportunities? Yeah. Like, where are you finding that the best candidates are coming from? What's the easiest platform for massage therapists to start looking for for jobs. It's really, it

seems quite difficult indeed, as hit and miss, I would say, um, I believe there are some schools and colleges that you can if you email the reception desk, they will print your job posting and put it on their bulletin board at their clinic, and there are some that will let you just apply or send a an application that they'll put on their website. Facebook used to, I'm not sure if that's changed. You used to be able to do job postings on there. I know some of the rmta group or RMT groups on Facebook allow you to do posts as well. I would say, not massage service. But I find again, with the Osteopath, that's so small a world, that's so small, they seem to have a good referral to the next. And maybe that's the way that the course is run, and their way it ends, it seems to have a bit more constant graduates throughout the year. Yeah,

we kind of have this, like, wave and then nothing, and then, like a wave and nothing. For my personal experience, I'm very, very fortunate again, like, because we're, I'm one of seven aligned clinics, and we're able to go to different locations. I've been fortunate that, honestly, most of the therapists have come from a line either working part time with me or transitioned full time over just because the location was better, or hours were better word of mouth. So one of my, one of my massage therapists, has, you know, hears about another massage therapist looking that they're looking for a clinic to work at. They might be doing trades already, they might be going back and forth to the clinic, and then it sort of starts to get an interest that they'd like to work with. With my clinic I've had just walked just massage therapist from the neighborhood who live in the neighborhood just walk in, and that's been, you know, that's been rewarding as well, because they're, you know, we're kind of like Starbucks, where there could be, you know, several massage clinics on on one street. And I have asked in the interview, so are you looking like, did you apply like, like at this corner and that corner and this one? And they're like, no, just yours. And so like, that's really encouraging as well. Again, that reputation. So there's lots of I just want to also just like, for massage therapists, listening like, there are a lot of ways that you can look, and I find that what, what is important to you is the is the best way to kind of look for your career. So for that individual who was living in the neighborhood, being able to, like, just show up at that, clinic that was in the neighborhood, ask if we were hiring. Can make a big difference. I know for me, it's more important these days for me to work and live kind of like in the same area. So if you're just applying on Indeed, also think about that. Like, if you're just gonna, like, mass send out your resume, but you know, like, do you really want to work at that clinic that's like an hour away, you know, like kind of maybe there's ways that you can narrow down your your field a little bit more, but there's lots of, lots of ways that you can can come at it, anything in closing, Lisa, any fun things that you'd like to share, or anything that we missed today? No, it's

been great, and hopefully this will be helpful, and definitely going to take away what you had suggested about doing the hands on treatment, and just keep that in the back of my mind as maybe a tool and just hopefully guide interviews to go in a more positive direction. We all learning. We all can continue to learn and be better at so this step along the way. But no, I don't think I have anything other than I'm just thinking when you were talking about hiring, is therapists being able to start with evenings and weekends and be a bit more flexible with your schedule, just because nine to five is not realistic right off the bat. But yeah,

yeah, I agree. I mean, it doesn't hurt to put your preferences out there, because you never know, and that's important to the clinic owner as well. Because maybe down the line, they can, you know, the schedule can change, and they can think of you first. But yes, being much more flexible with your your initial hours, if you are just starting out as a massage therapist, can really be helpful to like what your goals are, to start earning income as soon as possible, and start getting busy getting or getting hands on, then, yeah, like, you need to be flexible with your hours, because evenings and weekends are still still the best opportunity to to see clients. It's changing a lot, but we might see that shift again as more and more people go back into the office as well. So we're in a very fortunate position with that flexibility. But we need to be flexible to ride the changes, I guess, I don't know. But anyways, this has been really fun. I'm so happy to connect with you on the podcast. It was your it was your message to me that was said, you know, like, we should, there should really be, like, a way that that, you know, massage therapist can learn how to, how to do professional interview and has like, Great, let's go. Let's go on the podcast. Let's do it.

So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and I just had all these scenarios fall in my lap.

So fun. You.