The AR Show: David Jiang (VITURE) on the Four Factors Leading to AR Glasses Adoption

9:20PM Feb 25, 2023

Speakers:

Jason McDowall

David Jiang

Keywords:

ar

people

device

product

glasses

experience

technology

game

play

world

nba

consumer

design

problem

supply chain

cloud

mobile phone

kickstarter

computing

backers

Welcome to the AR show where I dive deep into augmented reality with a focus on the technology, the use cases and the people behind them. I'm your host Jason McDowall. Today's conversation is with David Jiang. David is the CEO and founder of VITURE, a company creating a smart glasses solution for video gaming and streaming content. After studying human computer interaction and industrial design at University in China, David continued his studies at Harvard, where he fell in love with the Boston Celtics basketball team, David joined Google in the early years of their work on Google Glass and went on to become the chief designer and head of AR for AI company Rokid. David then became CEO of Meteorlight, where he pushed the boundaries of AR positioning technology, and designed the number of AR experiences for retail and theme parks before setting out on his own with VITURE. In this conversation, David shares some of the challenges of human computer interaction design, and describes the early rationale for Google to make Google Glass.

Google always think a step further than the industry and just think, what's the next after the mobile phone? Because fundamentally, all these devices, there's no difference, right? They have three fundamental elements from all this like computer pad or mobile phone, right? What is display in a second is computing. Third is the communicating device, right? So they have to connect to the internet. If you have computing communicating, and the display and speaker, this is a device that people need. And they have different form factors of the mobile phone, computer and an app had before the different scenarios and use cases. So if we're gonna design something, that there's no form factor, you just wire on you had that can be an ultimate device.

He goes on to explain where they missed the mark and the lessons he learned from that experience. He describes how he continued to refine his understanding through his enterprise focused work at rocket and the b2b to see focused work at meter light. He summarizes four factors affecting consumer adoption and applies them to AR glasses and his work at pitcher. There, we get into the core use case, some product details, his successful customer engagement with Kickstarter, and how you return to the NBA player Gordon Hayward to endorse the product.

As reminder, you can find the show notes for this and other episodes at our website, the AR show.com. And please support the podcast@patreon.com slash var show. Let's dive in.

David, I hear you're a big basketball fan, NBA fan. Can you tell me about the first NBA game experience you had?

After I came to the United States, I studied at Harvard. So of course, I'm a fan of the Celtics. And I went to the I think it's a caught a TD Garden. So the first time that I entered into the stadium, and I think I still remember that I bought the best seat in the stadium and watch the game. That's like one of time experience in my life. Because you know, I'm always an NBA fan. But from my childhood, I just watched them on TV. So I started watching NBA games from magical Johnson time, and also Michael Jordan. So I watch the last s3 Championship, the finals of Michael Jonah, you know, that's the classic time and that really impressed me. So I really love NBA games, from my elementary school, to middle school to high school. And finally, I just come to the TD Garden stadium and watch the game the first time you live. And das totally different. Just blow me away. Because that's a totally different experience that like you can High Five was the people you don't know, just sit beside you. And you can hear the sound just so amazing. So you can see the player played a basketball game, your life and the vivid. So that's that's a totally different experience. So after that moment, I just think like most of the people in their life outside the United States, they may not have any chance to watch this game in their life. And also like I have a lot of friends in China. And most of them I think like very very few of them have this experience right now and maybe in their life. So I that time that I feel that the TV technology is really beneficial but know that enough before the TV like people don't know what is NBA game, right? They don't have any information about that. Maybe the radio time they can listen to the game. And after they have the TV they can watch the game, but is still a huge difference. That way you add the present time to be in the stadium and to To share with somebody like the FERS, beside you, I think that's very unique is experience. And I believe that technology can achieve very similar experience that you are just at present at this stadium, after the TV and after all the media devices we have nowadays. So that's why I really obsessed with AR and VR technology. Yeah, I believe that people around the world, they should have the chance to experience the same experience or very similar experience I experienced at that moment.

And so for you, that's really this heightened appreciation for the gap between the available technology, the time TV, and the live in stadium experience, and be able to enjoy that with others carve out a level of energy interaction, and that sort of experience. Exactly. So AR and VR is the technology that might get us at least a step closer to that reality. Exactly. You've noted that you spent some time at Harvard, you were studying human computer interaction there. And after that graduate work, you went on and spent a bunch of years, five years or so working at Google a number of projects, including this new passion of yours, AR and VR. So I'd love to kind of maybe explore this world of, of AR and VR from the perspective of human computer interaction for a little bit. But maybe we can start with this backing up just to have half a step and describe what is good human computer interaction or good human computer interaction design.

I think the key thing is that to mimic how humans interact with this world, by nature, yeah, so this is the key. Because you know, like, like when people interact with this world, is really complicated. We feel this is natural, but it's really complicated. Imagine that there's an object or like a cup on your desk, right? You need to see them, and you need your you use your eyes to locate the object in the 3d space. And then you use your muscle, and use your hand to hold this to cash this cup and hold this cup, and then move this cup to your mouse, and you drink the water. So this whole system is really complicated, but people just feel very natural about it. But if we design something with like robots to make this happen, is really hard. You have to locate that cup, and then you use the like a machine hand to hold this cup. And you have to match this location. With this like machine hand. This is a system that were designed right now on AR and VR system, right, exactly the same way we interact with the real object in the in the reality. But there's also other like stimulations for the human body, because like when you hold this object, you have the touch feedback, you have the haptic feedback. But nowadays, the problem the big problem with the hand tracking is that you don't have this haptic feedback if you will hold an virtual object. So this is one thing I'm solving right now to have some haptic feedback in AR and the VR field. Yeah, so like, for my principles, is that you have to design something like exactly mimic the way people interact with this real world object in reality.

And that's really what makes it so hard. Yeah, I guess it's one thing we think about human computer action, good design for a mobile app, or for, you know, a laptop or PC. And, and there's this notion, you noted of visual system, being able to identify where Africa and decide what your intention is, you need to be able to see the forest needs to be there in an interaction, but the interactions is really relatively simplistic, but we still work to strive for haptics, even on a smartphone, in terms of a little bit of buzz that we get from the phone to kind of give some sort of feedback that something's there. But as you noted, when we think about AR and VR, it's a harder problems set, ultimately, to be able to give that sort of feedback to make you aware of what's possible. It's a different animal, a much harder problem set.

Yeah. And also, another factor is the efficiency that people tend to always choose the most effective, or the most efficient input method in their on their hand, for example, data, like a like a journalist, right? So when they write an article, they may choose use the computer keyboard, they don't want to write in full article on their mobile phone, because the efficiency is lower than the keyboard. So the keyboard is, I think one of the most wild the greatest invention in human history. Is that is really cool. Located but when people get used to that, when people learn that, and they can type things, just without any thinking just like a with a muscle memory, right, so, like the word just emerged from your head, and then you just write things down, and you don't have to think about it. So I think that's also one of the natural interaction that I mentioned before. So I think this is also one thing we want to achieve, to make the most effective and efficient, improved method to make the human computer interaction smoother and quicker. And people always want to choose their thing. So like, if you have tried the HoloLens input method, you're going to find out is really, really low efficient, right? Like you have to be very carefully touch one button, and the other button, and sometimes you make mistake. So like it just like very frustrating experience that I'm going to type them thing in AR, because there's no haptic feedback. And also, you're not gonna get used to that right now. So right now, we're just focusing on something like you have haptic feedback, you have a higher, higher efficiency, and also, the higher accuracy input mattered in the AR and the VR technology.

I'm gonna hang on that for just a moment, we'll come back to this notion of short advancements in the input method as relates to what you're currently working on. And we'll come back to it by kind of walking through perhaps, the journey that you've been on, and understanding what is today through the perspective that you've gotten at Google and at rocket. And the current trend of augmented reality smart glasses was really started by Google with Google Glass. Correct. 10 years ago, almost more than 10 years ago now. Yeah. And you get a chance to work on that, with that team on that system. Maybe you can catch us up and remind us from, from your experience at Google, what is Google's or what was Google's perspective on how AR was going to be most useful, how they're actually gonna be utilized, and how we were going to be utilizing these devices? And, and kind of through that, how we're going to be interacting with them.

Yeah, I think the time when Google Glass got invented, is the mobile phone was trending in this world. And Google always think a step further than the industry and just think, what's the next after the mobile phone? Because fundamentally, all these devices, there's no difference, right? They have three fundamental elements from all this like computer pad or a mobile phone, right? What is display in a second is computing. A third is the communicating device, right? So they have to connect to the internet. If you have computing communicating, and the display and speaker, this is a device that people need. And they have different form factors of the mobile phone, computer and the app had before the different scenario and use cases. So if we're gonna design something, that there's no form factor, you just wire all you had. And there's a display and there's a speaker, and there's computing and communicating module embedded. That can be an automated device, you don't have to, or you don't need computer or iPad or mobile phone, theoretically, anymore. So this is like automated device. So I think that direction is totally right. I think the whole the whole industry agree with that. But the problem is that the trade off you have to make for the computing communicating and display on the speaker, right? How this going to advance then a computer and a mobile phone. So back to the question is that, like Google have this direction, and they want to make something wearable, and still have the display the speaker and also have the camera? Like we have a mobile phone, we use them every day. So this is a device that you can wear a small computer on your head. So I think that's the starting point of why Google human this device, but in reality we use there's because back then I had to sell the 12 I remember that from 2012 to 2013. Where that class is being company at a campus just because for for notification. So we read email, like a preview and also take some photos but not that often. So we found out that for this use case like notification this Men not that useful, or this is not enough for one person put a glass on their face. This is not enough. So I think that's the problem. And that's not only the problem, oh, cool glass metal, for all the glasses on for all the wearable has that device. But I believe Google Glass is a really great product to open this AR world to everyone. And then that's the starting point, I still believe that AR is going to be the ultimate device, everyone can aware. And it's going to replace most of the devices we have today.

After this amazing introduction that you had, I guess, to the world of AR through Google, you were drawn to rocket or rocket as I want to pronounce it. What attracted to that what what was it about that opportunity that was different or better than what you were experiencing in Google?

Yeah, so like, what I do on Google is, if we talk about like zero to while Google is like 100, right to 150, or 100, to 200. So I really want some experience from zero to one. So rocket by days, that opportunity, because rocket is a company focused on the smart speaker, like her, that's the counterpart of Alexa and Google Assistant in China. But they don't have the AR initiative by the. So I could have an opportunity to start a team in Silicon Valley, just focus on an AR device. And then I can write the blueprint. And I can do the like the product definition to design something I believe, useful for no matter business, or people.

And so what is it that you thought was useful at that time? What were you doing differently now that you had the opportunity with a clean sheet of paper to design something new?

Yeah, I think the topics always about trade off, I think the best word for for AR and VR is the trade off. Yeah, because, you know, the technology's there that you can do something really amazing, but a huge, like, this is gonna not be consumer product, but you can be some something exist, the lab, but you know, the technology just emerge and evolve every year. So by then this 2017, they time, I believe this is a right time, and we can build something for business, because for business, they have like a better tolerance on the hassle product. Because by scenario like no matter worker, or like a policeman, you know, the where the device is for just one hour or two hours. And then they have better tolerance on some devices. Because you know, for policemen, they already have a lot of equipment on their body. And so they don't mind to wear another headsets device. So I think that that's one way we can make this trade off. Better to design something useful for them. And at the same time, not that good. Because for humans had to wear face, there's a certain threshold for the weight of the glasses to have certain wear time. For example, like if you design 100, gram has that oral glasses, people can only wear them, like half an hour to one hour, that's the maximum. If you design something 80 grand, and people can wear them two hour to three hours. If you design them in 50 grams, just like the classes and way right now is 50 grand people can wear them eight hours a day. So this is the like a band nature algorithm. So by then we can design something around 120 grand, and with all the computing inside, so you don't have to have a computing box outside of the body. There's no wire just like all your wine glasses. And then we sell them to a lot of business. And that's really successful. And people just accepted then the people and the worker just aware the like one hour two hour session, one session is one hour, and they can help them to manipulate any like machines better. So the main use case is the virtual assistant, because this is a hands free product, right? So they can have their hands free and to manipulate the machine. At the same time. They can have the instruction or too many of those machine on their glasses. And also can do the recognition like object recognition, facial recognition. So this opens a lot of opportunity for business side of the AR glasses. So by there's a lot of like successful business, they are for business AR companies. They're just like the real where and the music's, and also magically, right they are just for business right now.

That's where the technology was at that time you build something enable a set of functionality that made sense for business the business would accept. And the use case duration an hour to two hours was enough that they got value out of that device at that time. Yep. From okay, you went on to tackle a subset of the problem is not in the hardware side as much but helping the computers understand where they are, and what's around them. What was the problem? You're trying to solve it that next RP went to? And how are you doing it differently? Maybe they are then then we're what's happening at some of the other companies.

Oh, yeah. So after rockets, because rocket with designer glasses entirely for enterprise or for business. So as the technology evolving, we can just approaching the consumer market by now get. So at 2019, I started another company in Silicon Valley. And we just focus on the, which we call to B to C side. So we just give the device to customer or consumer, but we sell the product to a business. So for example, like if you go to a shoe store, like a Nike or Adidas, right, so we can sell the glasses to Nike or Adidas, and then the consumer gonna use this product after they enter the shop. And they were to glass. And then when they like and shoe there, and then they can take the shoe out. And we can recognize the shoe by the by the pattern and by the shape. And then we can show that if their size available in this store. And then if they click on Yes, or if there's available and click on Try this shoe, and there's a people going to come out was this shoe. Yeah, so this, this going to be an entirely new experience for our shoe shopping. So we sell this product, we sell the glasses to the business. And the business really liked the product, because they can create some new customer experience. And then customers are going to use the only for like 20 minutes or 10 minutes. And then after they actually the store, they can just return the device. So this is like A to B to C field. There's a lot of field. Here we can do some business with. Another example is the theme park, we just build a booth in the theme park that people can pay like $10 for $5. To experience a whole experience of the AR experience, going to match the theme park the theme like we put this device in dinosaurs theme park. And then we have the AR dinosaurs experience because there's a skeleton of a dinosaurs. And after you wear AR glasses, you're going to see that dinosaurs alive, right with all the muscles and with all the flash from the scattered skin. And then we show the the evolvement of the entire dinosaurs history. Yeah, so this is a really amazing experience. So as you mentioned the slam technology, right. So for the business, we don't have to understand the space, we just have one single RGB camera to recognize the object recognize the faces. But for kind of experience I mentioned in a dinosaur theme park, we have to have this lab technology and to have people have like more immersive experience in the real world to make swift as like a skeleton in reality, and also the virtual objects of the real dinosaurs.

So it helped you ultimately solve that and create a better experience in this B to C or b2b to see sort of React company that you're creating there. And it fast forward a couple more years now. So technology continues to evolve. You've had this experience at rocket you've had this experience at Google, we have experience working, ultimately delivering consumer experience but working through a Nike or other sorts of companies. What was ultimately the inspiration that you could build something newer, better than the other things that are out there when you think about starting pitcher.

Yeah, I think AR glasses right now, like for consumer, they don't have a scenario. They don't have a scenario I think from my principle, there are four main factors for consumer to buy a product. The first thing is why right why you need it. Just give me a reason. So like a toothbrush, they just clean your tooth, right? This is really straightforward and simple, right? You have to have one just one simple reason for consumers why they need to buy a product. And the second is the function. Why? If it is really functional, and really have a good experience of this product, so people are going to tend to buy a product, buy it function, like buy a car, right? The car needs to drive, right? How's the speed? And how is the driving experience. And the third really important things the emotional needs from consumer, so like buy, sorry, it's not a discrimination, but you feel by a push, or some like economy car, right? Both of them kind of achieved the driving experience and a commuting purpose, right. Both of them are really functional. But why you like, push, right? This is because emotional experience, right? You like the you like the experience and the like, like some people on the show off there like a frenzy car. Right? And you just you just simply very happy when you drive this? Yeah. So that's when it's simple. And the forest is the price, right? If it is affordable price, and people can to think about okay, so this is all the all the three things. And then if I want to pay this money to buy this raisins, right, so why and function and emotion. But right now, a lot of AR has said for consumer, they don't grow from this ground, they just grow from technology ground. A lot of like the CEO from this company, they want to build something from their technology, and give the people this technology they think, Okay, this technology really amazing. Try it and buy it. I think this is not the right path. So the right path is that a lot of people are going to ask why I need it, what this stuff can do or benefit for me. And second is that, how's the function? Right? A lot of people like, you know, confused by it magically, you know, the video, right? Like a whale just come from like a stadium. And they think, Oh, this is an amazing, right? But when they see the real stuff, they're gonna think, Okay, this is not good. But from technology aspect. Medical is really really great product. But from insider view, this is really hard to make that a from consumer view. They don't understand what is iPhone V. Right, you know, field of view, because for much for medically, but they only have 50 degree FOB, so it's impossible to show an entire wheel. Huge Whale entirely. So they can only show a box of it. Yeah, libera limited viewport, so people don't enter, like consumer don't understand the technology behind it. And they just want something in the commercial media. So they don't think that's functional. And third is that like most of the has added bude very technology driven. So this is like a black chunky box on their hat. And they just simply don't wear don't want to wear it, right, just like if they wear them outside, people are going to stare them and people are going to talk about and so this is a really a weird or not pleasant experience for consumers. And also the force is the price. All the like has said before the event is really really expensive, right? Like a magic will be $3,000 and HoloLens, $3,000 and even for the Google Glass is 1500. So these are all really expensive. So imagine iPhone, right? iPhone is really useful. And iPhone is really powerful. And it's only around $1,000. So even for the high end model. So that's a big problem. So we have to think about this for aspect to design an AR product for consumers, because for consumer is the first. And the second is to build the product around all that AR technology.

That's such a beautiful articulation of the sort of values that we care about as consumers when making a product choice, specifically around AR. And you're absolutely right. So much of what is available today is something that's very technology driven. We have the technology, we need to put it out there. There's tons of trade offs, we inside the industry can appreciate how amazing the work that went into that thing was like the compliments that are there. But from a consumer perspective. They don't care. They don't care how much work went into it. They just care. Yeah, that kind of meets the sort of criteria that you're describing. Exactly. And so when you set out to start VITURE and you think about that those four sets of criteria, what were the trade offs you made? What were the choices that you made regarding that technology regarding the experiences that are available regarding how you communicate about it that really help it stand out?

Yeah. So I think the first thing is really important. But this is not like you choose one field is about data, you'll understand the history of the industry. And also enter said almost all the technology behind it, you're going to find out the reason. So what kind of like reason we can build right now with all the technology behind. So one thing I found out, the trigger me to create this company is cloud computing cloud game. So you know, Google released stadia at 2019. But by then the experience really chunky. So like people always criticize, okay, that experience is not that good for him stadia. And afterwards, a lot of like cloud gaming company released their cloud gaming platforms, like Nvidia released GeForce Now and Microsoft X cloud, and also the Unity parsec. In Google stadia, and also a lot of like startup. So add to sodden 20, because we have the 5g and the cloud computing getting mature and mature. And I just played the stadia from Chromecast on my TV, the cyberpunk, I play the cyberpunk, oh, I think this is really amazing experience, right that you can play on Chromecast, a really, really low cost CPU, SOC there. And then you can play cyberpunk, this is a sum game that you can only play on a powerful PC. So and they are realized this is the future of the computing. And this is the future of the next generation of the personal computing device, which is AR and VR. Right. So because I always talked about the trade off. So the most a trade off we have to make is the computing power to the wearability, right? This is a contradiction between the wearability and the computing power. But after you have the cloud computing this infrastructure, and then a very fast internet connection, you don't have to have a computing power at all on the device, that you can offload all this computing power in the cloud. So I believe this is going to be a trend in the next five or 10 years to have this AR device, very popular in the consumer market. Right? Because people don't care about, like where this compute right locally or in the cloud. And once that back is on the mobile phone nowadays, right? You can't find an app that is not cloud base. Right? So if you cut off your internet connection, and our apps, they're dead, right? Like Uber, or Airbnb, or Netflix, or Google Map, or Gmail, almost all apps are there that so like, all the data is stored in the cloud. So in the future, the computing shouldn't be in the cloud as well. So after that, I have the blueprint of The Witcher one glasses. So we can view a glass utilized by the cloud computer and the 5g. And the use case, and why I need to buy it is to play the console and AAA games, anywhere, anytime. So this is our slogan, right? Gaming anywhere, anytime, because this is a wearable device. And then you can play cyberpunk or Elden rain on the goal. You don't have to have a power of a PC, you don't even have to have a council. And you just play it naturally in the cloud. And I believe that cloud computing, not only for gaming, that it can be something like electricity and water we have today. You just like the oxygen floating in the air everywhere.

It is pervasive. It's one of those things that over time, like we have a wall outlet that delivers electricity, and all the magic happens behind that, that outlet with the same sort of thing with with cloud computing. Correct? Exactly. One of the things we talked about at the top of our conversation was this evolution. And the challenges associated with interacting with these devices, particularly in AR and VR, adds extra challenges for effectively interacting with these things. And you've noticed that you were beginning to think deeply about and even iterate upon a new way of interacting. So as you start a venture you come up with a product act really is focused on the gamer who's excited to be able to play anywhere at any time, regardless of their position in their house laying on their back in the bed or on the bus, or wherever it happens to be. They have access to this sort of entertainment, this set of capabilities offered through the glasses. How do you incorporate? Is there a new way, or a new approach you're taking for human computer interaction for controlling the device?

Yeah, this is just the like, I mentioned keyboard, right. So in the history of the keyboard there, so many people want to reinvent it. But one thing is hard to reinvent is people's, like, the people's memory, like muscle memory about this device. So like for gamers, as well. So Game Controller is something like the keyboard, people are ready to get get used to it, like when you play NBA 2k, right. So you don't have to think about the keyboard, you just play it, and you just make the shoot and make the steel very naturally by the game controller. So at first, we believe that we have to introduce different layers of the learning curve for users, not all of them. So because there are several learning curves for the gamers and for consumers, one thing is that this is a revolutionary display, or the way that you can play in a very large screen anywhere, anytime this is a, like still a learning curve for people to get used to that. And the second is the computing device, right? So we have we design the neck band on their neck. So after they were like two minutes, they want to feel that exist. This is one cool thing. And third is the the way how to control their game. So I like their hand tracking I like like the slam. But when they play like Elden ring, or they play NBA 2k The best way for them to get used to is to use the GamePad. So that's why, like our device, like recommend people to connect their own game controller to play games, because different people have different preference. Some people like x bar, somebody like the PS controller, so we don't introduce extra, like learning curve for the interaction between the game and the consumer.

So bring your favorite controller subscribe to your favorite online gaming service is that the open to whatever gaming service they want is a subset that you've made available.

Yeah, I like the PS controller, just like a personal preference. And for games, I think I like the games evolve in time. I like the Gulf War right now and elderly of course, but I'm really a big fan of FIFA and NBA 2k Yeah, just as I said, I'm a really sports fan. That's also one thing encouraged me to design this product is really a pain point for me. And also a pain point for a lot of friends around me to play FIFA and NBA 2k as well, because I played FIFA and MBA 2k from like high school, I play with friends. This is a really enjoyable experience. But uh, we play them on PCs or on PC. But after the mobile, mobile time, right, a lot of people play the games on mobile. But we don't play fever unbeatable here on mobile. Yeah, I'm not sure if it is like you have you have noticed that this is a really interesting thing, right? Because you know, like FIFA and NBA game, you have to play that on a very large screen, and then you can join the game. If it is on a mobile phone, you can enjoy that. And also the control is a pain in the ass. Right? Because you have to have the LM L one, l two and R yr two to make some a lot of tricks there. So this is a big problem. So the best way is still that we play that on TV. But fewer if you're a people they tend to play on TV at like a dorm or at a friend's home. So I think we definitely need a device. You can back to the old time to enjoy this triple A game like FIFA and NBA 2k. So right now I play a lot FIFA and NBA 2k which are wine glasses, so I can I can really enjoy the experience. And I can play that online with my friend. So this is off my pain points as well.

It's always fantastic when you get to build a product that you yourself want and enjoy. I think you end up building a better product that way. Let's talk a bit about the the components of the party talked about that you solve compute by building this neck worn device that incorporates, I presume it incorporates computer communication to the network or a resume, it also incorporates battery that's then connected to the glasses. And you noted that because of the the ergonomics of that device after you have it on for a couple minutes, you'll even notice it anymore. Yeah. And then you bring your own controller, and that controller interacts with the neck worn device, and neck worn device then interacts with the cloud cart in order to deliver the the gameplay experience. It's pretty amazing. And so in terms of the specs of the glasses themselves, they are effectively a wearable display. It's tethered to the neck, one compute here. What sort of visual experience are you offering? What sort of audio experience you're offering in these classes? And do they need any other sensors besides a great display? And in decent audio?

They don't need any sensor, but a way you embed a sensor Have you inside, which is light off? Am you literally we can do the threat of interaction in a space. If you don't move your body. You don't feel any any difference from the six star devices. Yeah, so this is the only sensor we embed in our glasses. But for the visual experience, this is really amazing that the glasses look like an ordinary sunglasses. But after you're aware that you can see a huge 120 inch TV in really sharp image really clear image at a 60 hertz refresh rate. And also we have the Harman speaker embedded. Really amazing sound that a lot of people never imagined that a glasses can be like this. Great. Yeah. So this is the experience that we viewed for gamers.

That's so cool. Can you describe the specifics? listeners of the blog appreciate sometimes the details of these things, but what is the display technology specifically you're using and the optics display technology? Is it a OLED with a birdbath?

Correct is micro OLED with birdbath. Yeah,

great. And then you'd noted previously, that there's this gradation that is related to how long you can enjoy a piece of headworn kit, based on how much it weighs. You know, that rockin period of time is around 120 grams. It's kind of what made sense for all the technology that was needed by your target customers. But really 50 grams is the sweet spot, something you can wear all day long. Yes, you have 100 right now. Yeah, so with this virtual one, the first iteration of the product, wherever you fall in on this product weight spectrum,

you just in the middle is 76 Grab. That's great. Yeah, so like a lot of people, if they take the glasses, the first impression is a while is so lightweight. And after they wear that for like 10 minutes, they don't feel they're wearing glasses, they just feel the just immersed into that experience. So I play a lot of game or watch the watch the video from the VITURE One glasses on airplane. So after I have this product, I feel that airplane experience totally completely changed me. So like, whenever I take an airplane, I feel that okay, I can immerse in another world. So I just disconnect with the world in airplane, sometimes really annoying, and just get into this new world. So because because there is no internet connection on airplanes, so we support switch and Steve back as well. But I really like to play switch. So I just put my switch aside, and then I just played a switch game. And because we have the electrochromic film, we can switch between the reality and virtual. So after I got onto the aeroplane, and switch the electrochromic film off, and then the outside world just to get fade down. And then I can just focus on the game and play the game. And you know, the time flies very fast when you play a game, right? So you bet is three hours flight. I just feel okay, I just passed the time so quick. And then like, I really enjoying the time on the airplane. And also, if they're a flight attendant to give your like some beverage and give you some food. You don't have to you don't have to take that off. Right. So you you just instantly switch to the electrochromic film. And then, because we have like, which we call it an Ambien and immersive mode, and you can also switch the window into the corner. And then you can still see the people outside. And then you can drink the water and eat the food without disconnecting with your game or the video experience.

Sounds great Nintendo Switch, though, you noted is the integration with tendo switch because you've previously you're sharing about the cloud sort of computing experience. and how seamlessly integrates with the NEC one compute pack. How's it different with a switch, you need a different piece of hardware to connect those two things together. Yeah, so

this was a, we call it a mobile dock. Because switch need a special protocol to talk to the switch to have the video output, and also switch need more battery life. And because we, if you have the switch connect to the classes, you don't have to pull the switch. So you don't have to care about the weight. So we just add extra battery life, like three times battery life, to the switch, and you can play almost six to eight hours constantly switch game on the goal. So I think that's going to be very beneficial for people play, like an airplane, or other train. And also, the best part of that is that we have two ports to connect to two classes at the same time. Because you know, there's a lot of like a co play games on the switch. And if you can join the switch game with your friend, like travel with you together, this is going to be a really, really joyful experience on a goal. All the travel

has this great. I'm a big fan of building a piece of hardware, AR glasses product, it's really focused on a single core use case, yes. And you've identified one here that is an avid user base who has a specific set of needs. And there's real value in being able to play anywhere at any time with the sort of visual experience and audio experience that you're describing. So kudos for having such a focused, clear understanding of who your target market is and building something specifically, that solve their needs. One of the things that you've done here, as you think about bringing the product to market is that you've taken advantage of the crowdfunding opportunities offered by Kickstarter, I love to hear a bit about your perspective on why Kickstarter, and what's been your experience in building up the enthusiasm for your product through that through that offering through that service.

I'm a backer. Yeah, so I really liked the platform. So I even I was even a backer back to, I don't remember that, uh, when that Kickstarter start, but I believe is around 2011 or 2012. So I wasn't back back back then, just from the starting point of a Kickstarter, I really liked the idea. I really liked the community, I really liked the communication between the creators, I believe this is a somewhere we can really utilize the value of it to create some great product from the platform. Because you know, like the previously, like a company designing a product. And then they do some research, like market research or the user research. But I don't think the research, they sometimes research don't work. Because a lot of people are pilot users you'll find on the market, they may not be your end users or because they don't they don't pay for the product. Right? Or they they don't care about the product. So they just paid to be in this research to answer some questions or a questionnaire. So I think that's a problem. You have to get like a first hand feedback from your real users, you real customers this are really important. But how to get this feedback from the customers before you launch your product. This is a this is a dilemma. So this is like an impossible thing before the Kickstarter. So I think that Kickstarter, the value of it is not not only for the crowdfunding, yeah, I put that second or third, third priority for us. I think the first priority is to get feedback from the real customer or real users, because they already paid for your product. They really want your product, and you have to listen to them. And then from their voice, you can improve your product for them. Right? Because you just designed this product for them, right. So you have to improve and evolve your product along the way. So after we release the product on Kickstarter, we collect like a tremendous, great feedback from backers. And then along the way, we even invent something just for backers. A lot of functions right now we have they're really amazing functions that are suggested by backers. So I really appreciate this community. And even though there's a lot of scams, you know, but that's the bad part. The good part about it is the communication with backers. Yeah, I really enjoy the time that I talked to backers and ox their experience because we have already shipped our product to the backers right now. So they got a product and it gave some feedback. And most of the feedback are really positive. So this is really also encouraged me and our team to work very hard to build a product, where the best experience for our customers.

Yeah, that's fantastic. It's really a channel through which to have that communication and get that feedback in order to deliver something that makes sense for that audience. That is your audience is ultimately going to be Yeah, purchasing that thing at larger scales, and even beyond that initial community there. I appreciate that perspective on how to leverage Kickstarter, you know, that you're already shipping that first generation of the product to those early backers? When does the product become generally available for the rest of us?

We believe that going to be around March, or April, yeah, because we are we are aiming to fulfill because, you know, we broke the record of of x, our field of the, you know, the profundity. We just surpassed Oculus, the 2.4 million, so we just qualify on those 3.1 Meaning, so I really appreciate this record. But at the same time, that also means responsibility. So we just expand the team and to develop this product as fast as we can for backers. So we have to ship all the product for fulfill all the orders from backers first. And also the pre orders as well. And then we can have more products available for the consumer market on the shelf, just around the corner. Yeah, that's

right. Yeah, one of the things that I really appreciate it, and it's something you definitely don't see very often, with an early stage startup, still producing the first product is that you have a really creative marketing department. And you've managed to get on board, the NBA All Star, Gordon Hayward. And you have these really creative little commercials about how, you know, two buddies who are hanging out might utilize this device versus, you know, the traditional setup with a large panel in the in the console. Alright, super fun, super cool. But also, I imagine a lot of work, and not a little money to pull off something like that. So I love to kind of hear your perspective as you building up this brand as you're building out this company and rolling out your initial product, how you think about the role of marketing and easing these sorts of have pieces of content, entertainment and endorsement to help you ultimately do that to sell effectively to your target market.

Yeah, just as I said, I'm an NBA fan, right? This is really simple. And I really like what a Hayward I really like him. And I think he's he's not only a great basketball player, but also he's a great person. Yeah, because I know, he's like a daily life. Like, he has a great family. And he has very great education. And like, personally, I really like him. And also at the same time, he is the most avid gamer in NBA League. And I know that fact before, so when I create this product, I just have my friend asks him that if this product really beneficial for you, right? And at first, okay, think this is like insane, this is something that too good to be true. And also like politely asking him if if he want to endorse us. And initially, he's really has data on that because like, you know, this is a Kickstarter product. As I said, there's a several scam of this. And also, I think he's the one of the highest paid, and B players in the league. And he don't care about like, if you give them like a as a startup, right, so later that I successfully ship one product to him. And if you try the product, and he really amazed by the experience, okay, this is too good to be true, but it's real, as he said in that commercial video. So he think that solved his problem. Because when he play in the in the away, you know, way time, so he always need to bring their piece and his PC or his PCs to the hotel room to continue to play games, because he's a fan of the console console games now the mobile games, so he just play games on their PC on his PC, and he even have a gaming room at his home. So this is a key thing. So with this device, not necessarily for him to bring the ps4 PC on his luggage to play away. And he can always just have a very, very compact package of the classes in a neck man, and then play the games anywhere, anytime. So you think this is a really helpful product or useful product for him. So he's actually Have our argumentation and to shoot a like endorsement video, just from his own experience. Yeah, so we believe as a startup we need, we really need some credentials. So this is, I think one of the best credentials for gamers. Because quarterhorse is a gamer, he is really famous in the gaming industry and a gaming Fair's.

First of all, congratulations for building a product that is real and actually solves a problem of an avid gamer in this market. So you've you've already kind of won in that regard. But have him experienced that and be so have such a positive experience with it, that he's willing to do that and engage with a small startup like yours is a major win. So congratulations. That's incredible. So we, if you roll the clock forward, we're looking out several years from now, and you're pitching investors or you're pitching employees, how do you describe the vision of the company who is Visher five to 10 years from now?

Yeah, so we don't define ourself, like an apple in the future or something in the future, because you have to achieve this. And then you can say that You are the apple in AR glasses feel. You don't have to achieve this to say this. So we are aiming to first of all, we are aiming to create value for our consumers, for our customers. This is the one the first thing. And the second thing is that we believe that we are qualified, where we're competent to design something that this market really need. And if without our effort, this industry is going to be different. So we can make some difference in this industry. And I believe that this not only going to replace a mobile phone, because a lot of people said that AR glasses, were going to eventually replace the mobile phone, I don't see is going to be only replaced, the mobile phone is going to replace all the devices we have nowadays, like computer tv pad, mobile phones, because people don't need this product, they just need the services, they just need the digital content inside this product. So if we have if we can have like a device to display a super large screen, like anywhere, anytime you can wear them, they have the best of portability. And then we utilize the cloud computing to display some unseen the experience on AR glasses that you have never experienced on a fixed flat 2d screen, this is going to be a more advanced simply just a more advanced device, then those device I mentioned. So I believe this going to be a one of the most revolutionary product in human history, that eventually this is going to be the last step we can merge the digital world to our physical world. Yeah, so like, from fundamental, this world, like, you know, like some, even some Buddhists thinking that this world is all virtual, right? This is not exist, but it's virtual. Because all this physical world is a reflection of in our mind, or in our brain is just like our electricity, you know, our mind has to have the same stimulation of this of the brain cell. And then we can see stuff we can observe, we can feel this world. So eventually, we can mimic something virtually, and then combine or merge with the physical world completely. So for all all the child born after this era, they're going to think this world, you just consist of virtual reality. They don't break or they don't separate from the screen we have nowadays, right? So if they wear the glasses, everything's going to merge together. So you're going to see this real person in front of you, you're going to see something like the virtual operator where the virtual path. Yeah, so I think the imagination is going to be a limited. So this is our driving force for us to work day or night to make this happen in the next 10 to 20 years. So I'm not that optimistic that we can achieve in the next five years or two years or three years. I don't think that's impossible. But in 10 or 20 years, I think we can definitely do something that achieve that world mix with the reality and the virtual.

It's all real to us at that point. That's our experience. Yeah. As you look in the near term, you know, as a young startup, first product coming out cool, you've you've solved a problem. You have this advocate in Gordon Hayward, and you have his early set of backers who have given you great feedback, give me great insight into what are they is that they want out of a product like this. But as you kind of roll out next 12 to 18 months, what do you think are the biggest hurdles, the biggest potential barriers for you to achieve that sort of lift off as a company?

I believe this is the supply chain. Yeah. So for almost all the hardware company supply chain is one of the key elements to the success, because the demand is there cannot technology's there. But why hurt Oh, is that supply chain, one thing is that AR industry, the supply chain, not exist before. So if you want to develop something really mature, like app had a world full, it's not that hard, because supply chain is already there. And a lot of people have already done a lot of like mobile phones or iPads or something. And they kind of just repeat that process. And the supply chain is already there, like a lot of components as parts that they are around there. But for the AR glasses, there's no parts or components exist there, we have to carry them. And when we in the process of creating them, there are some problems. And there are some barriers. So we have to conquer and solve all of them to satisfy product follow up backers, and consumers. So I think that's one biggest challenge. And also, if we want to be the front runner of this industry, we have to ship the highest volume of the product to the market. And that's also a problem of the supply chain. So if the supply chain is ready to shape this kind of like volume of the product. And because there's no way I have done that before, so you have to experience a lot of pains in this process to achieve that volume. Because this is not there, you have to create them. So if we read the article about the Tesla and Space X, I think the on the on the road, they're all paints. Yeah. So like, they fail so many times. And then there's the success because no one else have done that before. So there's no lesser, they could learn from the books, or from articles, they can only learn from their own failures. So I think that's the, that's the biggest hurdle is bad. I strongly believe that that's the process. The good thing is that we realize this is the process. And if we were to clear that, we how we can conquer this. All the barriers and all the all the problems and to achieve the volume as the industry front runner. So yeah, so this is, I think supply chain. This is the biggest hurdle data we like how many units we can ship. This is the this is the big biggest barrier, I don't worry about the marketing or the word more to demand from consumer side. Yeah, from the initial feedback, I think this is really positive. And the more and more people are going to love this product, and they're going to need it. And the problem is for us if we can fulfill this demand, and if we can fulfill this demand with a really solid and a satisfying products experience.

Yeah, I think it's you know, so many times, it's a chicken and egg sort of problem. Right? The supply chain grows in response to the demand, right, and demand comes from you on the response to your demand, right from your customers and the level of enthusiasm that they have. And that only comes if you're able to solve the problem that they have well enough, in this case, being able to enjoy the game experience anywhere at anytime. And of course, the price point is you noted as the fourth kind of key element into desire and the willingness to buy. That is ultimately affected though by the supply chain. Right the middle of the supply chain, the more units that are producing, the cheaper the prices, the more customer demand will be on the other side. There's definitely a cycle in there. But yes, as a patron that makes that makes a lot of sense. Let's wrap with a couple of lightning round questions here. And first among them is what commonly held belief about AR glasses. Do you disagree with?

Oh, this is a hard question. I'll pick the technology. So if you look a look a lot of companies or initiatives in this AR or VR field or all the news about this field, they just want to show off some cutting edge technology. But as I think most of the technology they are not ready for consumer side but this will work to express to to spread the world but I As I said, I think the wrong thing is to start to build a product. From that I know technology, you have to build something based on the existing technology, we have any technology, we have to build some experience, a product to solve people's problem, or to fulfill their demand, like haven't been fulfilled with other devices

like that. It's all about the problem. Start with the problem, start with the pain point from the customer and build an experience and service around that. And technology is in service to that ultimately, besides the one you're building, what tool or service do you wish existed in the AR market?

Oh, a lot. A lot. I think a lot of things, you know, like, right now we'll build a product just from all existing products, hardware and software. So you know, the neck man, we have an operating system, right? We're based on the Android. I'm not saying that Android is not good. I'm not. I'm just saying like Android is not perfect for the AR System. Yeah, so if we because Android is for design for a mobile phone. And it's designed for a touch base device. So a lot of local events, they trigger by the touch, like a scrolling, touch, and some other interactions. That's the that's the basis of Android. So we just tailored and customized from the Android system to build something like a people can better interact with in AR environment. Yeah, so this is one thing that we want to see that if there's some more like AR plugin, or some like AR environment on software side, we can do better work, or less work from us to our consumers. So this is self aware said that hardware said, there's a lot of things that I want to have, we want to have is that all the chips that they're designed for mobile phone again, same thing. So there's no chips that are designed for AR and VR, except the Hong Kong AR two chip and xr chip XR 1x R two. But honestly, this AR had chipset. So you can design some really cool slam stuff from this chipset. But there's no like a middle or low end chipset for this field, or there's not enough competition on this field. Yeah, so we have to bring down the price. We have to make this more affordable. So I think this is the casing that we need more tailor and customized. Cheap said for AR and VR more affordable to make this industry prospered. That's a really important.

Yeah, those are good ones. Last one for you here. If you could sit down and have coffee with your 25 year old self. What advice would you share with a 25 year old David?

Oh, that's a good question for 25 years. Okay, well, what I'm doing 25 years, if I look back, I don't I don't regret even any step I make. I think life is just like connecting dots. Right? So if after one or two years, you'll look back, you're gonna think okay, so why I did this, if it is useful for my future, but after five or 10 years, sometime, you encounter some like opportunity, or you need some skills, you're going to find out the skills or the opportunity you accumulated 10 years, well, five years ago, is really valuable for nowadays. So I'm, I'm not a person like to objective. I think the way this world consists is something mixed with objective and subjective. So I believe that the my path to get here is the perfect way that I get I'm getting here. So if I have a suggestion for 25 years old, me, I will say that, read more books, because I always want to read more books to get more information from this world. And then I and my team can make better decisions based on this information. Yeah, yeah. And other than that, I don't think any suggestion is needed. I'll just say to go forward, there's various splendid future ahead, and you have to spend the rest of your life on this AR field to make this happen. For everyone,

that's beautiful like that. Any closing thoughts you'd like to share?

No, I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to you, Jason. And I also, like, listened to a lot of your podcast before I learned a lot from your guest as well. So oh, so we want to see if I have a suggestion, like read book and also listen to podcasts as well. Right? Because this is the way that how you can learn and how you're going to grow yourself. Yeah, so I think like from AR and VR, a lot of company struggle in this field. And this is a really, really hard path. But I believe that if more and more people get into this field, we can get to a better world. And eventually, what I want to equate something is that just like a lot of people right now, they have already have their smartphone. And they use like Instagram, they have use YouTube, and they use like, talk to explore this world, like exploring this world can be very, very low cost, or even zero cost. For the majority of the human being. I think this is the thing we want to achieve is that to make this experience, even more vivid, even more life, and more and more people like a child in poverty, you mean a property? If he has a glasses, he can open an entire world for him. And he can even see it in the TV garden. Or, like in the in the nor camp stadium to watch the game to experience the game without air tickets. Yeah, so this is my dream.

Yeah, it's beautifully wrapped full circle from the story. You have the beginning. experience you had the NBA game. That's awesome. Who, David? Where can people go to learn more about you and the work? You're doing there at VITURE?

Yeah, so we're really lucky right now. Yeah. So because one thing is that this is a really long journey. Is this not a one year or two years thing. So we have to do that step by step. And the second is, the reality is that we don't have much time. Yeah, we have to make our hands dirty, to make the product and to get this product delivered to our backers to the consumers as fast as we can. And to push this forward and to become the leading force of innovation, and also the product development in this field. So this is our goal. And I think this is also a good opportunity to share our thoughts with the industry and with your audience. So I'm looking to have this kind of like opportunity to share some experience and also some insights from me to the to the industry and also I learned a lot from your podcast as well. So I think this is a really good thing that share with small community because I think the majority of this technology, field AR is still very small thing. So they they need time to grow big and grow big.

Yeah, definitely. Where should people go to find you online,

LinkedIn and and also discord. So if you're really interested, just join our Discord. You can go to patreon.com and on the bottom, there is our Discord link. I'm always at discord to answer questions and to communicate with our Peace Corps fans. Amazing. Yeah, I really liked the community. Yeah, yeah. David, thank

you so much for this conversation.

Yeah, thank you, Jason. Really appreciate it.

Before you go on tell you about the next episode. In it. I speak with Stan Larroque. Stan is the CEO and co founder of Lynx company creating the first all in one mixed reality headset. The Lynx R1 offers a unique VR device with good video paths through the real world to create mixed reality experiences. Stan shares how his passion a great team and a few mentors have helped shape the company into Europe's leading MR hardware technology company. I think you'll really enjoy the conversation and please consider contributing this podcast@patreon.com slash the AR show. Thanks for listening.