And so if I was talking to the younger my younger self or any young people, I always encourage them, that you should believe you can do it. That thing that you think is a disadvantage, it might very well be the best down thing you should do. It might be the very, very thing in gotta believe it. You got to believe it's possible you got to believe it can happen, you got to believe you can do it. Because there will be people that will be forces, it will be places and organizations to tell you otherwise. If you don't, you better start believing quick.
Welcome to work in process. The podcast series where I design an educated George Garrison Jr. Have the conversations you wish you had. I talked to designers, artists, educators and creators to find out the hows and whys of their creative work. Through experiences and inspiration, my guests explore the techniques and observations that have helped them navigate their creative career. Thanks for joining me to explore how creativity is fueled by intuition, motivation, and most of all process. And that was today's guest to send a walk to senators are renowned for her work in design, diversity research and strategy. Her research on design journeys strategy for increasing diversity in design disciplines has been hailed a breakthrough over this solution a thesis explores diversity in design disciplines and investigates effective strategies to expose black and Latino youth to design careers. Just in his future goals are to help scale diversity in design initiatives with education institutions, corporations, organizations and museums. Recently Jacinda was featured as an unsung hero by the Cleveland Public Library, and received the 2021 mentor award from the Chicago based project osmosis. It's for her continued drive and advocation for young people that I have just in the on the show today. I look to learn how she instills passion for design an early age and what we as a community can do to foster this change alongside her. Ages Linda, welcome to the works in process podcast.
Hey, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.
Oh, no problem. No problem. Um, before we get into you, and what you are as a creative, I'd like to do something fun as the beginning of our podcasts. It's a rapid q&a questions. Are you ready? Yes, I am. Give it to me. All right. So first is a series of this or that questions? And this or
that? Got it? Got it.
Coffee or tea?
eggs or cereal?
Oh, I like them both both.
Both analog or digital?
Cleveland or Akron
216 Every day
workshops or speaking engagements.
Both know you got it. You got to pick one.
workshops or speaking engagements, workshops or speaking engagements, workshops.
All right, there you go. And now some quick word association. Right. So the first thing you hear when you hear these words, okay.
Fail Fast, fast.
all the time. Exactly. Right. Exactly.
Lots of history. Gotta have it.
crushes come on commodities.
and last but not least, process
is a must.
Definitely. Right. I totally agree. Yes.
I work with so many young people. And that's usually one of our first conversations like, do you even know how you do what you do?
Such a big one.
They're still learning. And they're usually in school or having these experiences where they're trying to learn about the profession and learn about the work, right? And you get so far out and you're like, oh, no, what do I need? Eat, remain creative. You know, this thing called a career is a long journey. And if you don't ask yourself that early enough, you'll slip up. It was totally above and not being paying attention to it. So being able to talk about that when you're a young, creative, critical, critical and so that's usually a big conversation that we usually
agreed. And so now let's get a little bit into kind of what I call your origin story, right? Let's find out how you were introduced into art and design.
Well, I talk often I talk about often is not private. I am from an incredibly creative mother, my mom, she was so special, she could cook and she sewed clothing like, you know, she sewed me and my brothers clothes into like real boobs. And she cooked she made clothes, she did hair. My mother was like the the neighborhood building hairstylist. She did a little bit of makeup. I mean, she was she crocheted, you know, like the string crocheting, not just knitting, but like string crochet, they make the doilies that a lot of women have during the 1920s on their tablecloths. And so she did those. And we always work creative in the house, like it was something that we did as a hobby, never in my right mind. And I think that this was something that you could do as a career path. And so in high school, when my teacher, she was pregnant, and she went away on maternity leave, she was replaced by this gentleman's name was Mr. Apple bomb. And he was a commercial artist. And he started us using typography, and making ads. And he even took away our paint our watercolors and brushes, and he replaced them with Prisma colors, and T squares and repeater graph pins. And, you know, he changed everything. And he told me that he thought I was pretty good at this, and I should think about it. And I didn't believe him. And I know at 16, I had loss of attitude. And I did it was really bad. I look back on it, like, Oops. But I lost that attitude at 16. And I went ahead, I cut class and I went to the guidance counselor to ask them, Is it this thing called design? And what is it and where is it? And for me, you have to understand this is before Google. And this is before the internet, right? So like, I just went and they had binders of books. And in the whole guidance counselor office, it was only three that had the art and design stuff in it. So it for me, I feel like it narrowed it in the what, and the where and the how, very, very quickly. And as the oldest child in my family, my mother refused to let me go out of state. She was like, I was like, Oh, my music school in Florida. What you're gonna do there? You can't do design here. You know? But will you need to find how to do it here. She was like, you can go, but I'm gonna need to stay in the state. And so that's kind of the origin story of how I kind of got into this area.
Wow. So. So with that, right, you answered a lot of questions I was gonna ask in the beginning, which is awesome. So we can we can bypass that right? And so what was your first creative job? And how did you stumble into it?
Did not stumble walk face first into it, smack bed and my first design job. It was an internship at Hickok engineering. It's here in Cleveland, they work for Ford, and they make car parts. Now realize, you know, here in Cleveland remanufacturing time, we're still town, you know, and these kinds of nooks and crannies, exists all in Cleveland, but I didn't know anything about it. And I had an amazing sixth grade art teacher. And she became the computer design teacher, right? Like she taught us like computer literacy and coding, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then when I got out of college, I had, you know, you have like summer breaks. And so I would always go back and visit my high school, I would always go back and visit the middle school. I still had I have a ton of siblings. So they were still. So it was easy for me to stay connected. And when she found out I was looking for work. She was like, Oh, I know some people and I'm thinking, Okay, well call me. And she did. And I met the gentleman at Hickok engineering. And he was like, Oh my gosh, you know how to design. And I figured he was just gonna hire me to make coffee and go do errands and go find stuff, right? Like, that's what I thought. And he was like, oh, no, we're gonna have you make something. And I'm thinking, I can't make anything I don't even have like, I just barely got a two year degree. I don't think I'm qualified to do anything. And he was like, he was like, how did you make this stuff in your portfolio? And I told him, I use this program called PageMaker and Quark Express and he was like, really? And I said, Yes, you know, we got max at school. And he was like, well, we want you to make our newsletter, and so forth. For the next three months, George, I had personalized training from the writers from the mechanics, from the entire automotive team, the Photoshop designers, like the people who did the retouching and the cleansing, because you know, when you see the magazine, when you see the car parts in the magazine, they don't always look that clean all the time, somebody's got a nail look like that. So I got a chance to work with each of these professionals, so that I could create and design this newsletter. And when I finished the newsletter, and I went back to school, and went back to University of Akron, it was crazy, because I had already begun to evolve. I saw it in my work. I saw it in my abilities. And I was able to see it in my classmates, like, oh, wait a second, we're talking about something different now. Right, like, some of us have had different experiences. And I'm seeing now, right, and this was maybe like my second into second year. So it was it was really early still, like it was still super early in my career.
It's not the the great point of an internship, right to expose you to things a lot quicker than you would do in school.
And, and the internship provides an opportunity for you to really think, is this what it could be like it like, if this internship became a full time job? Could I be happy doing this? Would I be creatively challenged? Right? Like internships allow you do that? How are you messing with other people? Right? George, what are you wearing to work every day? Right? Like because you know, coming out of college, you got like, one good pair of slacks, maybe two good shirts, you know,
but as you broke, you are a college student. We are broke,
right? Like, so what do you wear to work? Like, how? How do you plan this part of your life out? Right? How do you afford work clothes? I remember asking so many of my older women friends, where do you buy stuff that's not for school. But
how I mean, it's it's such a learning experience that like the quote unquote, real world allows you to start considering things that you just didn't do. When you were in school. Because you're upping the game, maybe you know, you're learning because of the experience, or you're just realizing like you mentioned to yourself that, hey, I'm now having a different conversation than the rest of my classmates. So I need to actually kind of, you know, step it up, because I know that it's a difference. Right? Yeah. So in that, when did you first consider yourself a creative? Genius, I
think I'm still working on that every day. I'm not even the creative I was yesterday, every day is a new learning spirit. I'm taking I'm taking a social impact class. Now on Wednesdays, after Fah. It's from seven to nine. So I'm still learning. And in fact, that's usually one of the things I usually tell young designers when they talk with me about this, like, if you are not going to be dedicated to lifelong learning, you need to start right now. You meet and go any further, if you are not willing to dedicate yourself to lifelong learning, because that's what it is to be a designer, it's not good enough just to have a degree and think you're gonna keep that job. There's lifelong learning. Here. They're updating the software every day, there's new software out every day, I was trying to teach myself Adobe XD a couple of months ago. Now I know how successful I was George, but I was I was trying to learn
it. That's the whole point.
Every every at Lake, so if you're not going to be dedicated to continuing and nurturing your craft, and learning, you may as well just go on a start right now. Do yourself a favor, find something that you can do. That doesn't require learning?
Exactly. I mean, I totally agree. I think there's, there's a point where, you know, if you consider yourself like I've reached the pinnacle of anything at an early age, then you need to stop, right you need because you you don't have the wherewithal to kind of dig deep into anything that you're doing to really push it to really push yourself and to go to that next level. If you think you've kind of achieved whatever you think you should have achieved at 2025 30. Right, you really haven't dug deep and I'm not going to speak for you. But you know, I've been doing this design for at least 20 plus years. Right? And like you said, every time you're learning but every time you're doing things at a different level. I mean, George, I don't
I even would love to know, how designers 50 years ago, kept their skill sets up, right because this is before the internet. So like, where were the conferences? How did you do online like, you see what I'm saying? So I know this piece about this lifelong learning has evolved with the profession, as well as with professionals. And what But that piece of it is. And so if you're not able, even at this, you know, the, as you said at 20 years for me 25 plus years, right? Like if you're not able and willing to say, Okay, I did not know how to do that, how do you do that? Right? I'm working on a project right now. And they use airtable. As we have up the game on Google Sheets,
there's so many, so many levels to all of that, right? salutely? Absolutely.
So you're you're constantly, especially if you enjoy the work, if you enjoy, if you are intrigued and curious, right? If you're if you're curious than this not really difficult for you to try and learn different things. If you don't like that aspect of it, then this is going to be challenging for
a grid. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. A little transparency to our audience, right, me and just send I've known each other for a little bit, for a little while, you know, we were part of the AIGA dei Task Force. And with that, I've always known you as design Explorer. And when I was researching you for the episode, I saw that you've worked for the city of Cleveland. Yep. As a designed instructor, a programming associate for a museum. Yep. So let me ask you, what inspired you to shift from being part of these larger organizations to starting a social enterprise?
I know, right, right, I get that. You know, I, my specialty was as an in house designer, with publications. And so I specialized in publications, branding, marketing, communications, helping with messaging, I also was responsible for doing the vendor quoting. So if we needed to hire a photographer, or if we needed to hire a printer, if we needed to hire another creative professional, I would responsible for going through the process and bringing that person on board. And for the longest amount of time, George, I thought that was going to be it. I really thought that was going to be at work for some of the largest organizations here in Cleveland. I like to remind people I designed for Cleveland Public Schools, we had 122 schools, seven administrative sites, we designed bilingual publications in three different languages. And I answered directly to our CEO at the time. Then I moved over to Cleveland Division of Water, where I designed for 500,000 customers, again, bilingual publications, city ordinances, government spaces. I also designed for the Department of Public Utilities. Georgia even did a couple of projects with the mayor's office. So that space, I was like, and
so you're doing small jobs.
I was I was like, in it. And you know, I'm a little bit ambitious. And so I was also volunteering. So I volunteered for like five different organizations. And I started, you know, as you say, Well, how and what I started mentoring, when I was at the school district, I quickly because I was the only designer there. I got tired of explaining that, right? They didn't know what design was. I was like 2726. They didn't know a black girl designer, let alone what design was right. So I regularly had to explain what this was. And so I started calling myself the designer, the graphic designer at Cleveland Public Schools, who else was gonna find me for the title. And so when I started doing that, it really made I noticed that it made people respond differently to me. And I noticed it had and made me up my game. Because if I'm going to tell you, I'm the one then I need to know everything. Right, I need to know how to do everything here. I need I need to be able to tell you about our brands, our Pantone cut, like I engulfed into the phrase logo police like I took it serious. Georgia had a badge and a hat like Wrong. Wrong size, wrong tint, like everything. And when I started mentoring, it just took me to a whole nother place. That and the fact George I think you know this as well, I suffer from Big Sister itis. So, since I already suffer from Big Sister itis, and I really enjoy working with young people. When my first mentee came and said she just wanted to see me work and just watch me. And at first I was like Well alright, you welcome to sit there. And she sat there for like a whole day. It was crazy. I would look over she would be taking notes. She would be writing. I'm running lunch. He ran it follow me behind lunch like she think I don't see her like, like she's following me but like she took shadowing serious. At the end of the day, George I was like, Okay, well I'm a bout to go home?
Because I'm gonna follow you.
I'm about to go home. I don't know if you have any additional questions or any comments or, and she said, I love to kind of come back tomorrow. Wow. And she said that she that's what she shared with me. She was a single mom. And she was looking to do something in design that could provide for her family. And that that conversation just took me there. Like, I'm not just giving her some words of wisdom. She's trying to take care of her child. She's She is looking for me to provide guidance, so she can keep her family fed. And and that just shook me like, it shook me. And so I just started talking with her and learning what she was doing and how she was doing it and what she had and you know, and we became fast friends. In fact, we are still friends now. She actually has her own business, and I buy stuff from her business, too. Oh, lovely. Yes, I've definitely like when she asked me that. It just took me there. It wasn't just like, one of my sisters or brothers asked me something, right? She was trying to take care of her family. And that just walked me and she was so young, you know. And she was doing the right thing, right. And so I just started working with her. And as I began working with her, my co workers saw because he would come down all the time. And my co workers saw it, and they were like, oh, Jacinta I saw you with your student. You know, my son wants to do this. And I don't want him to be like a regular artist. I want him to get a job like you. So can you talk to my son. And then one person saw me talking today, son, and then somebody brought the daughter and then somebody brought a cousin. And then they the the young people started referring their friends like, Oh, I know a black girl doing this. And next thing you knew, I had 10 mentees like, it just, it just happened. And by time I moved from the school district to the city of Cleveland, Georgia, I was operating a little baby HR design agency. In that office, I'm here to let you know, I was recruiting, I was helping with resumes I was helping with interviewing, I was helping decode job descriptions. And the crazy crazy thing happened, George, they started getting jobs.
Well, that's amazing.
I was like, they like, and I just started documenting my process. I started writing down, hey, this is what work this is what didn't, I started taking notes of who was in my network that I could connect them with, like I am and in doing that is really the first seeds. You know, as I look back of what design Explorer was going to be, and I think I time you and I met, design explore became what it is today, because of Dr. Mayo and the whole staff at Ohio State University, they really, really, really took a special interest in my research work. And they helped me to iron it out. I'm talking not just a little Renson, no iron with the steam, and what is the feasibility? How will you sustain yourself? How will this help the profession? how we'd like these deeper research based type of things? And that's really what made design explore possible.
So let me ask you this. What I also heard with the idea of that person shadowing you, right is is something that maybe as young creatives we don't normally get is somebody really genuinely interested in the things that we're interested in, right? Because a lot of times such a hard thing that sometimes it's hard for us to explain what we do to our friends or family who don't really understand and to have that person shadow you and also, you know, beyond the idea that you were like, Oh, she's trying to do something for our family, but also like, somebody gets me. I think that's an important thing, too.
I recently met a young man in Detroit and his mom brought him to meet me which I was like, what? And I was speaking at the Heidelberg Project in New York, I mean, in Detroit, and they were like, hey, just send us in cleat. Just send us in Detroit. And I'm thinking, okay, like, I'm just gonna hang out here with y'all. Like, I enjoyed the environment. It's creative there. And I was like, vibing, and this mom comes on, she's like, I heard you're here. And they told me you're here and I brought my son because he likes art like you. And he's thinking about doing something with computers. And so I started talking to the young man, I'm like, Well, tell me what you do. And he starts to try to give me the fluff answer. Well, you know, I do a lot you No, I like creativity. Okay, what's that mean? What'd you do? Well, you know, I like art classes. And I like computer. What do you do? And he's like, I was like, Well, here's the thing. I'm a creative. So I already understand the language, you can just tell me, you don't have to give me the answer that you give everybody else because they don't know, really what you're talking about. You can tell me exactly what you do. And he said, I really liked to make posters. I want to do computer like, hey, I want to make videos, he wants to do trailers, he wants to be able to use his art and technology at the same time. Right? Like, that's why he's like, trying to, that's what his mom is like, I don't know what you're talking about. I need to get you to somebody who can speak that language and help explain it back to me. So after I decode the conversation with the son, then I go back and share with the mom. Okay, here's what he needs,
that you translate, and really you translating for her as it's lots
of translating, because parents, particularly the ones I've spoken with, George, they genuinely don't know what you have to understand that the design professional has changed drastically. It's not even what it was two weeks ago, right? So it's changed drastically. And so parents are just trying to keep up and keep food on the table, clothes on their back and shoes on their feet. And so your child coming up to you talking about i need a $600 tablet for being able to help parents like okay, yes, he does. Yes, he definitely could use a tablet. But maybe we started away from tablets about 100 bucks. Yeah, okay, well, we're gonna get that at. It's this decoding thing, you know, that it's constantly happening. I'm decoding with the young folks that I speak with, then I got to decode for the parents to understand how to better nurture and help and assist and provide this creative beast, because you know, it's the thing that feed, right, like, it's a savage. And you got to feed this creativity. And parents are just trying to understand how, what, how much is. Now they're trying to understand how to do that. And so regularly, I have to decode for parents.
Yeah, I get that. And, you know, it's also just seems like you're just kind of justifying the fact that, that this world that we live in, is a viable profession, right? When they're not so used to just they're used to seeing unfortunately, the the doctor, lawyer, things like that, were those just things equal money, and like you said, these families are trying to provide and so they want to make sure that their their children get a job that can also do the same thing, because they've been struggling with that, potentially. So how do you make sure we do that.
And what I've, what I hear from a lot of parents is, oh, he can be creative, but I want him to be able to have what I don't have. And so when parents hear for many parents, when they hear my son or my daughter wants to be creative, they remember these stereotypes. Artists are homeless on the street, paintings that don't sell all my other favorite, you know, the art cart teacher, you know, the teacher in the art in the class, she doesn't have a classroom, she carries art on the car, she got that little train and go down, wiggle like Chicken, Chicken, Chicken, Chicken, Chicken, chicken, right? You know, they're like, Oh, God, my child is gonna get that job. They're not excited about that. And so the thing is that, as professionals, we have to get better at sharing our stories, telling what's really happening, and what's really happening, not just what's happening, what's really happening. And we have to be transparent about the good parts and bad parts. Because you know, we I find sometimes as designer we we love to be like, oh, yeah, I'm driving this. I'm rocking that I got the MacBook Pro. I got the new, but let's talk about the before. I recently had an opportunity to attend a project osmosis event and present gas Moses was giving out laptops
to high school students. George, I was
on the call like, is he about to get the MacBook Pro to $2,700? So I typed in the chat box straight up, George typed in chat bots. Do you have fonts? If you don't if you need some fonts call me. Don't you know your man was like, I would love to learn more about how to get fonts for the new computer. He don't he's getting his he is getting quote unquote, the limousine the Lexus equipment, doesn't know how to get fonts. Right?
He got the printer but I got no paper. Right. Like, he got the best you know, and I think that's one of the things that like there's things that we just don't talk about, right where like, there's so many different connections to to what it is and and I was gonna ask you a silly question and I'm gonna move past it just because you know, what we're digging into is so much more. More interesting, right? And what you're, what you're doing is you're talking about one translating conversations for, you're basically bridging the gaps, right? between, between students and their families of like, what this whole thing is. Yeah. And what it is, is the ability to break down kind of what creativity is, when you're talking about art, there's a different thing that we're not artists, we're designers. Correct. And I think a lot of people confuse them, because they, they, they think they're the same. And yes, we might have started out as artists, because that's just kind of how we navigated the world, being able to draw things potentially, but we are people who see things and, and create impact with what we create versus just something beautiful. And let people decide based on that
is yes, we are vehicles, I like to describe our scribing as we are vehicles where messages and experiences come in, we translate them, we put them on paper or on computers or on social media, or billboards or products or services or experience. And as a vehicle, you know, we are congruence like we are that person that's going to translate this and be able to synthesize it so that the next person has a better experience, a more improved a different experience. And I think that we don't talk about that part of it enough. We don't talk about the evolution of your career. And I think that as we have young people, these are the types of things I recently was at University of California, UC Davis. And one of the design challenges I gave because the school was so nice, the design department, they were like you won't come in and teach a class. I just got off the plane. I'm I'm okay. Like, all right. Well, what do you want to? So one of the design challenges was to ask the student designers in the foundation's classes, what do you think it's like to be a senior designer? Georgia faces went blank, blank, like, what do designers do? Like they were like, I'm like, Have you ever seen one day like, like, so their world is is so I don't want to use the word limited. But their perspective is just very narrow, because they just simply haven't had the exposure or the experiences yet. And so asking them about what your what you might be doing in 25 years? That's a tough question. That's a big question. And they have a vision of that, because they don't see the people doing that, like they don't see the people at 25 a year, they don't see the people at 50. Or they see the people who are in their classes, they see the people who are in their classes, and they see the people who are teaching their classes. That's, that's what,
that's what college
is all about. So I think that we have to be better at professionals to talk about some of these nitty gritty things, because we just can't keep not only the pretty stuff.
Oh, no, definitely. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I think that I started this this podcast conversation is the ability to, you know, like you said, talk about the process of getting here. Yeah, learning from the stories that people have, and really trying to realize that it's not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows, and there's a lot of struggle, and too much of it is put on social media. And we focus on the beautification of things and the finalization of work, right. And we don't ever focus on the struggles that that go into it. And, you know, the process or the thinking behind it, or the even the teams that you have, right, everybody thinks like, oh, only one person did that, like, you know, it's on their website, they did it. I'm like, No, hello, there's a whole team behind that creative from writers, designers, videographers, producers, editors, marketers, you know, accountants I like was I think that's all of the things that we don't talk about. Correct. And I think that's one of the reasons why is to allow my listeners to see that there are multitudes of ways to getting to a thing, and if they can align with any of my guests and be like, Oh, my God, that's exactly how I used to do it, or I'm looking to do something like them. To me, that's where the magic happens, right? Because then they realize that it's not just what's happening out there on the surface. It's actually also what's happening behind the scenes, and a lot of stuff behind the scenes is where the magic happens. Like to me that is the big thing. GEORGE That's awesome. Magic.
Think about this, you print your annual report. Guess what happened? You put it on the shelf. You spent six months on that. It's printed. It goes on the shelf. You start the next one. Yeah. So if we're not, if we're not talking and appreciate having an appreciation for the what happened to get us to that place of glory, the being able to really acknowledge it and enjoy it becomes very limited. Because because you're not you're not respected any of the stuff that happened before that you only want to talk about this one little piece. Now all the hours I put into it all the the labor, the drafts, pray, like, ask a designer. Hey, I saw that thing you did. How many drafts did you do? Right? Like that's a conversation
in itself. But ask us ask a student how many drafts? It's it's a vastly different conversation because of just there. I think what you were mentioning it like the lack of knowledge, and it's not to take away anything from there. It's just the exposure. And like you mentioned, there's a there's a lack of exposure to design an early Yes. So how do you think we as a community needs to address this? And oh, that's a double quick. Yeah, it was a double. It's a double. It's a two parter. And is finding out about design in college? Too late in your opinion?
Okay. So I'm a tackled of the last part of the question. I come back. George, as you know, I study education. I love watching educators work. I've been in so many schools, so many teachers. I love it. I love watching them work I love when they let me watch them work I love when they asked me what, like, I just love watching them work, right? I highly respect the work of educators. And in answering your question, I have to say, college is too late. It's too late. And for the students and for all of the young people who decide in college, this is what I want to do. It's not impossible, right? It's not impossible to learn it. It's simply the fact that when you're in that K 12 space, you're in a place of discovery, reflection, that's what they call it, right reflection. And it's much the stakes are much lower to reflect in K 12, than they are in a college classroom. See in a college classroom, my dollars is on the line now. That time for discovery is much more rapid. I gotta figure this out. I got 16 weeks. I've got four years. I got a two year like, so that so that place of discovery happens best in that foundations part of the passage. That's that whole K 12 piece. Plus, maybe you guys are way more fortunate in New York. But see here in Ohio. We start standardized testing in the second grade. Now, George, I don't know if you've ever seen an eight year old have to prepare for tests. It is the saddest thing I'm here to It is so sad. George, when I go to a school I know I'm gonna be there a couple couple weeks, couple months. First question out of my mind what mind is testing because I want to be out of here by testing because like it's it's heartbreaking to watch. It's heartbreaking that they're eight. They're eight. So we are starting standardized testing in the second grade so that we can begin to learn what their future likes and interests and capabilities are at at eight. That's George, what were you doing at eight?
I'll tell you what I was I was just drawing.
At eight. I was drawing. I was having lunch at recess. And I was doing pretty decent at gym because I'm very unathletic, and no one ever picked me. So that's what I was doing at eight. I can't imagine having to make a career decision
at eight. Oh, no. But oh, no,
that's what we're asking our eight year olds to do. Now, we're asking our eight year olds with standardized testing. What are you good at? What do you like? How much did you learn? What kind of you know, like, we're asking them these metric based questions at eight. When you talk about is it is college too late. When I look at the K 12 system and all the opportunity for discovery and for learning and being exposed to different things. That's the place. Like that's the place. So it's not that it can't happen at the college level. It's just you have time in the K 12 space that you simply you don't have that kind of time
at the college level. Right.
And then what can we do to have a better under a better acceptance, how can we do this? Is that the question? How can we have a better accept? Well,
you know, since there's a lack of exposure, right, what can the design community do to address this
threefold answer? It's because realize that the lack of diversity and design is a wicked problem. When we talk about how to solve wicked problems, problems that are so massively large, that one thing, one person, one fix just isn't going to hurt it. Wicked Problems are things that you couldn't even put a million dollars on it, you couldn't dump a billion dollars in education right now fix it. You couldn't dump a billion dollars in public transportation, and fix it. Because this is beyond money. These are how we identify wicked problems, right? Like how massively large and design, the lack of diversity in design is a wicked problem. And so we need to treat it like a wicked problem, and look for multiple people to solve it. Different kinds of people in different kinds of places in different kinds of experiences in different kinds of perspectives. See, that's how we address a wicked problem. And if we began to think of this lack of diversity of design in that, then we would understand that it's not just educators, we need parents, we need professionals, we need organizations, we need businesses, we need all of these people focused and united, to begin to work on that problem.
That's true. That's true, it is definitely something there is a systematic problem that I think as you're talking about an eight year old student in the second grade, needing to determine what their life is going to be, you know, when when we understand standardized testing, basically inhibits creativity. And it allows only students or individuals to only focus on what is being asked versus what can they potentially do, right? And an eight year old, they should be exploring and having these moments of epiphanies, versus, you know, standardization, and you need to do this as an assembly line, kind of answer your question, this is what happens. Yes.
And that's why, you know, when I when when we do summer camps, it's such a revolutionary experience, because I'm not asking you to do the same thing you did for Miss Jones class. And I'm willing to wait for you to think about it. Well, well, let's time is it over? Because what if I don't? We'll wait, you come back tomorrow, we will talk about it again. But rod is if I don't, if I can't think of it. We're gonna sketch we're gonna draw, we're gonna have some conversations, let's look at our what our friends are doing. Right there. So like, how do I do this? What happens if I can't like it? They just having this the struggle. And so because they've been taught, like, Hey, I told you eight facts, I need you to
give me eight answers. The conditioning is the
is that conditioning, and then they come to design or creativity? Well, we're like, what do you think? They're like, Well, what do you think? How is it? I don't know, how do you like it? Well, what if I don't? What do you like? They're, they're like, I had one student once. I was like, Can you answer one of my questions? I did. Like, don't you?
But just what was the question I asked?
Well, I don't know. I really don't. What do you think it is? That's what I was asking you. I don't know, either. What we what do you see,
that's one of the biggest things I always see is, is as educator myself is the idea that that they consider design us, like we have solutions, not answers. And Solutions is a very different case based on a bunch of different factors that go into account to say, you know, because of these things, this is potentially an option. Versus an answer, obviously, is, you know, something that is proven to be true. And this equals this, and one of the things I tell my students is exactly what you're getting at is the fact that you're trying to uncover things, and it's not going to be as direct answer. And if you're looking for me to give you an answer, then, you know, we're gonna have this runaround conversation of just well, what are you all day?
And I excel at this conversation? What are you like, I don't know, what are you having? What's going on? Well, what did you see? What did you hear like, oh, we can go I can take you know, I spent a lot of time with eight nine year olds, so I can play this game. Really Well, I think really,
but I think to do that is to uncover the ability and for them to understand like it's you're breaking them from this cycle of answering what the like needing an answer and I think the discovery Part is cool. Like, I'd love to think about okay, two and two does equal four, we get that. But in what situation? Could an equal five? Let's just have a conversation. George,
if you do it right, sometimes one plus one can
equal 11. Right, right. And so it's being
able, it's being able to own and discover. And so when you ask, like, how has it happened, I believe that it's happened, because the expectations I've set for students are different. I don't expect you to tell me the last thing that you told Mrs. Jones and get an A, that's just not how this is going to operate. In fact, I want you to make your own design. And I have plenty of time to sit here and work with you on it. There's not a rush here, we might be using physical tools, we might be doing wacky supplies, you know, because I love to bring like colored packing peanuts or popsicle sticks or, like, I found these little foam cubes at the educator store, right? Like they're like, these could be friends. It could be a building, if you stack I'm like, really? Wow, how can you stack up, right? So I'm not even going to bring you the same supplies that you're using in your other classes, because I want us to have a different context to our conversations. So our outcomes are always different. Because I don't go into a get trying to get the same in deliver the same information, like, so the thinking is different. The ownership of the knowledge is different. That is really where I see young people just thriving, when they, when I'm able to spend 3456 sessions with a group of students, by the end of it, they're like, so you think that was designed to absolutely, like, they can go through that thinking process on their own and make better decisions. And that's how we know the thinking has changed. Right. And that's ultimately what I'm trying to do with designing spore I don't, I don't want people, particularly young people, I don't want them coming to events, or activities or workshops, and not changed at the end of it not changed. And to do that work. It's very laborious, right? Like, it's very, it's very labor intensive. Because I'm not bringing you the same things, we're not gonna have the same kind of conversations, I'm gonna ask you different stuff like, and it's that preconditioning of how students have been thinking that we have to begin to break that. And that's why As designers, we have to talk more about our work more about our process more about our story, that whole piece of it. It's crazy. It's crazy.
Yeah, what I love hearing about that is, is there's no one size fit all. And I think that's some of the things that, that educators who want to be impactful educators do. They understand the assignment, and they understand that they have to bring differences to all of those things, you can't just do the same thing, every single time. And I think that's really where you understand. And you see the educators really shine is when they start to look at that and they go, okay, cool, I understand what what my goal is. But for this group of people, I have to adjust. So it is it is that sense of learning continuingly because, for me every semester, it changes because I got a new group of students. So I think the same thing for every successful educator is the same where they say, I understand what I'm trying to do. But I need to adjust based on who I have in that room, based on who I'm talking to. And that's exactly what you're telling me is the fact that I'm going to make sure that you understand it because you may understand it differently than Bobby su Jamal or anything like that. And that's the important part that you
get. And that's why so many organizations who work with me, they're kinda like, um, let's listen to we, we had a script and you went off script. Well, because Chris and Mark was looking crazy. I didn't understand what I was talking about. We must go together collectively. This means we must, we must travel together. And I can't leave four or five behind just because two or three got it. i We have to move in unisons. So what happens if I come back here again, and we talk about this, if I don't address the thing that they don't understand? Then what am i What are we going to do? And so a lot of times, it's really difficult for organizations because they're like, Well, what are you going to ask them about? What are you going to say? I don't know yet. I mean, I go in there with the outline. I have some slides. I got some resources. Right I got my bag of motivation, right. I'm a bag of motivation snacks. But we might have different conversations like I I've had conversations about the difference between art and design, like, kids want to understand it. I taught a group of kindergarteners design once, and their biggest questions to me were. So in the art class, we're just going to paint. But in here, we're going to make stuff. I'm like, Yes. They're like, Isn't that like making an art? And I'm like, sort of, they're like, heartless. They're trying, even at that young of age, they were trying to understand the difference between art and design. And what's so wonderful about it is, I had shared with a couple of them, you know, there's some grown people still try to figure that out. So you are for even tackling the topic. Like for even asking the hard questions. That's how I know you're going to be powerful. That's how I know you're going to be exceptional, because you're already asking the hard questions. And they're like, and they're comfortable
with that, at that, at that young age.
And having a group conversation. One is like, well, if we make stuff is it different with our hands, than if we make it with the computer, they're like, is that? Like, they were trying to figure out that, and I think when I when I look back at like, all the different places that I've taught, and all the different organizations and classrooms, some of my favorite, most comical, most creative, most aha moments was in that kindergarten class, trying to communicate this thing called design to a six year old, who's still learning the alphabet. But you can't use the regular definitions, you can't use the regular techniques, you can't use the regular light Lake, you got to come way deep, because you want to understand it, the only challenge is, there are six.
But you're able to, then you're able to drill it down to like its essence, for a six year old. You don't need to use the big words and try to explain it over somebody's head, you're like, hey, this is what it is. And this is what it's not. Yeah, but also, you let's just have a conversation. Yep.
And that's why I started taking in the quote unquote, wacky supplies, as we call them, because it equaled the learning and the the the playing field, because sometimes I might have third graders, right, I might go to an after school program, where they clump, the kindergarten and the third graders together, right? They put the you know, they put groups of students together. So like K to two might be together, maybe like three, four or five might be together. So I can't change the entire lesson, I have to be able to teach it in a way that even the six year old, and the eight year old, can both understand it and work and build and design together. And that
that's a skill. That's a skill. That is definitely a skill. And I don't want to take anything away from you. Because I think that is the ability to, to create design for that multiple audience. And understanding that, because who you you know, are engaged with you understand that could be a wide variety of ages. And to build that in Yes.
And issues, right? We got literacy issues, I see literacy challenges, often. I mean, especially I want to say maybe these last three years, two years to three years, I've seen a lot more literacy challenges, like like, oh, okay, I understand what's happening here. Hey, would you like to work with my one friend, you know, he's really, really great at this, maybe we can do it together. So that the things that you don't do well, he can help with and there's something he doesn't do well, so now that's gonna bring the bar down, and level this up. So no one feels some kind of way, about being vulnerable about the thing that they don't know or can't figure out or,
I mean, that's the ultimate form of collaboration, right, which is what we do, and the ability to say, you know, what, everybody has a strength. Let's put those people with different strengths together. So we can all just work together. And to do that a younger age allows you to maybe even consider as maybe those young people to be like, Oh, I'm good at one thing, and that other person is good at these other thing we can work together.
And my last summer camp, I was assigned a young teenager to be my helper unit. They're like she'll help you with anything you need. She'll help you if you need help with your passing up the art supplies if you need help packing things up, or you know if we for cleanup, she'll help with that. But George, I happened to notice she was having far too much fun working with some of the second graders. Like far too much fun. Finally, by the second week of camp, I'm like, You know what, Lizzie? know how you can really help me she's like, Yeah, how did you bullied the second grade team? She's like, I can you like, yeah, I can figure out this tech piece, you know, that would really help me if you worked with them. Because, you know, you can read a little bit faster than them and they can build and cut stuff up. They could you could really help them with your thinking. And she was like, Can I really? You go right ahead. So instead of see, say, and work with me where she was learning nothing, she wasn't having fun, because we can't have fun with this thing. I don't know how much further we gonna make it. And when I told her to do that, man, oh, man, isn't our rippled through camp, because all the other high school kid, can I work with the sixth graders? Right? That we could we could we can do what like because they all thought, hey, I have to help the adult. But you know, by the second week of camp, I already know where the restroom is, I already know where to park my car, I know where to go get you know, Cantopop. So I'm good that like, if you really want to help, let's help the others. So that we can all have fun together. They
know. That's that's the whole point. And I mean, you talk about all of this. And honestly, I just listening to the way you mentor and the way you connect with young people is a conversation I believe me and you can have for a long time just kind of vibing off of these stories and things like that. But one of the things I also want to understand is just designed explore as a company. Yeah. How is it? How is it structured? Is it just you? Or is there a team of explorers? Well, I will be very Are you the team? For many, many, many, many
jobs. George I. A lot of people didn't like yourself didn't know, it was just me. Like, didn't didn't know it was me for many years. I want to say almost maybe like the first four years. I was by myself, I couldn't afford to hire anybody. I don't like to have people work for free. I couldn't afford. I couldn't even really finished 14 to design my own brand, because I had to work to pay for my mortgage and pay for my car note. So I didn't have like, that's how tight it was like my accountant. She's always laughing at me. She's like, when she looks at the books. She's like, Oh, you must be living late like those. She was like, are we going to be able to continue our relationship? Like are you are like what? It was lean those first. It was lean, it was lean. It was lean. And I I just took all the pieces I could. There were lots of there was lots of mistakes, and lots of COVID brought even a few more, right. And I and M all I could do George was keep moving forward. That's all I could do. I I couldn't quit. I refuse to go and just quit and find a job somewhere where I knew I wasn't going to be happy. And so even during the lean times, right, I remember one year I was really broke, I was really broke. And George I took a job at an after school camp. And I made a deal with them. And I said, Hey, okay, I'll come and help serve snacks and watch the children and make sure they're safe. And all that kind of stuff that happens at an after school program. I was like my only exchange my only request is, is that if there's time during the three hours after school when the parent before the parents come, if there's an opportunity to teach design classes, I would like to do that. And George, by the third week, there was like, you know, you could just keep doing this, we'll just call you on like, because the kids started loving it. I would bring my art supplies in and they would be like, are you going to the third grade class? No, today I'm going to the first grade us with them already. What you know on Mondays I go to the kindergarteners Tuesdays I come to the first grade like they're like oh you already you should come to the third grade class on like, trying to negotiate negotiate carrying art supplies start by I'll help you Mr. Sinha. If you come to our class first. And and it just it just really, really took off. And George, I had to take a job doing it and I had to make the exchange like, hey, I'll do this. And while I was doing that, I was writing and documenting and researching everything. Like I came home at night I would take notes of what would what went well, what failed. My kindergarteners were infamous for letting me know we didn't understand that at all. Like, was that spell? It would be? Which way does the bee go? They're like, Oh, okay, that lesson didn't work. Let me let me try another one. Next time. I come back And so because of all of that, the volume has picked up tremendously. And it's forced me to develop and engage a team. I'm really excited to say that, you know, I have some awesome young people who have stepped up, I also have to really share that the first round of young people that I mentored, when they found out what I was doing with design, explore. George, they were the first people who volunteered to help me. They were the first ones who helped my website, they were the first ones who offered to help me with my social media, you know, they were the first ones like, Hey, you got to do this thing. And then we this will happen, and I'll show you how to do that. And then we like, they were the first ones to do that. I call them the OGS, the original, the original gangsters, the OG mentees, because, you know, I got three tiers of mentees, you know, I got the OGS, the new GS, and the one of the GS, now you got, you gotta want to be one of these people who are calling me now like, Um, can you help me find the internship, um, I'm so so called me and something happened at my job. And I need to find out what it like situations scenarios in the morning to be GE like they tried to get right. And the OGS were the first ones that helped. I mean, I know I have some pictures circulating around here. And because you know, we've been celebrating the five, the fifth year anniversary, of design, explore, and, you know, they came back and they saw where we're at, and what we're doing and where we're working. They're like, Oh, my God is like,
you got an office like, because I've never had before, I was always working out of my home, I was always having activities out of my out of my space out of my garage out of my driveway. You know, I was always doing stuff like that. So they have been instrumental. And when I have opportunities now, I've just gotten so used to giving those opportunities to young people that I don't even seek, I don't seek a lot of adults to help with things. Because I know that the young people will do what they will help guide and direct to what design sport needs it to be. Right. And that's really what I've been doing. So I have a young person who's been operating my social media channels since she was like 17. And I'll let her do what she wanted. So you think we should be talking about what really like where do you find that it? How do you
explain it. That's it. That's the empowerment, you've been able to foster the engagement with really young students, you've been able to foster this with people who you mentor. And then if you empower them to think about and be part of your brand, right, which I think is what you were talking about with that one student who instead of just working for you is actually working with yes, if you empowered her to do that, those are the things like even when you sit with your internship, right when you get to do the actual work, versus just getting the coffee and doing that kind of like, just whatever. When you're doing that you understand the importance. And they're like they're paying it back to you with saying cool, we understand what you gave us. And now supporting you in in what you've basically allowed them to do, right? So if you're mentoring people on design, and they're now getting jobs in web or social media management, and they're like, cool, I'll just do that for you. Because it's what I do as
a young man, I've been mentoring, he was deeply affected by COVID. You know, he was going to school in Chicago. And you know, when COVID happened, they closed schools. And so he had to come home. He had literally like two classes left for graduation. Like he was he feelings hurt, rightfully so, rightfully so. And so I just kept calling him. I kept letting him call me. I have a calendar link that I give a lot of them like, Hey, I can't talk about this second, here's my link, you pick a time that you want to talk to me, and we'll figure something out. All right, I'll send you a link, we can talk on the cell phone. And let's have let's put this together and he kept calling. He called me a couple of weeks ago, he said, I got a job. He's like, I'm so happy. Like, I want you to call me if you ever need something. And so, as I though I had a plan for design explore, as we talked about in that classroom, right? The more young people that I talk to the more young people that I work with, the more young people I hear their stories for. It always makes me wonder, should design explorer be doing that? Is that something you know, that I can get into because of the mentoring work that I've been doing? I have a great desire now to teach a gap class, you know, like a gap class. Remember, like back in the day you took a class during the four weeks of Christmas or the four weeks you know of summer break, you know like before summer rake, after first week is first four weeks before summer. And then before school starts in the fall, man, I have a great desire to teach a professional practice gap year class, like, all of these types of things. And because I've been doing it for so long and so much, I now know when a young person comes to me, I know exactly how much time we need to spend together. And I have about maybe three or four young people right now. They're, they're embarking on their one year with me. So I'm already hitting them up. So what are we doing? Why haven't we finished that? What are we like? And they literally tell me stuff like, well, we don't know if we're ready to go in the real world, honey. It's already the real world. And you're, you're,
you've been you've been doing this for a long time. You just didn't know it. Maybe
you're already in the real world. It's happening right now. It's happening right now. And they're like, it is it is, it's not coming. It's not starting, it's started, you're using the wrong verb.
Right, right and wrong tense. And you know what, I think one of the things that I'm that I'm listening to, and like I said before, we can honestly go deep and all of these little these little nuances. But as we start to kind of like close out as a as a mentor, as an advocate, what are you still inspired by?
Wow, I am still inspired by the drive that young people have to figure it out. Because sometimes as adults, we get frustrated. We're like, Okay, this just might not be happening. Young people do not do that. George, it fascinates fascinates me that they will figure they have a drive, and a thirst for understanding and comfortability. And like, I've just never witnessed. I know, I talk with my older family members. And I asked them did I do that? And they're like, it was real bad, too. And so maybe this just happens, maybe now that I've aged, I don't see it, you know, maybe maybe adult has maybe adulthood has dropped on me or something. Right? So when you say what am I impressed, like, the drive of young people is awesome. And then to see them grow into their confidence is so wonderful. Like, it's it's so wonderful. And anything that I did to play a part in that helps me
sleep good at night. Well, that's amazing. So now, as a business owner, and a creative, what do you struggle with?
Remember, we talked about failure, fail fast. That's what I That's my motto fail fast. I tried to do it fast. What do I struggle with? You know, George, I am really looking to always learn more about social impact businesses. One of the biggest challenges that I get often is that people think design Explorer is a nonprofit. I'm like, I never said that the material Don't say that, like we are all about profit, we totally love, profit, and explore. We love profit, but we understand the necessity to be able to take advantage of some of the things that are happening in the nonprofit sector, and apply them in a for profit place, and some of the things that are happening in a for profit place and apply them in a business or an organizational setting. So when you talk about what are some of the things that I'm struggling at, I'm always looking for other social impact organizations to learn from, and to hear how they're doing it. There's not much written or, like, easily accessible about these businesses. I'm in a few impact hubs. I'm even taking a organizational management class right now with the organization here in Cleveland. So I'm always looking to learn that part of it. And I guess like most careers, most most creatives, I struggle with, Hey, don't add those Profit Loss numbers up right? Like, okay, don't put the cop like,
Man match numbers and data.
I'm going to tell you some data from the Census Bureau. Oh, I got those numbers. Member book. I got those for days. You're like, I need to add up this whole. Oh, hold on. Let me let me get let me let me check.
I know sometimes when it comes to our own stuff, it tends to be there. I could do it for somebody else. But when it comes to me like oh, where's that? I can't wait when I put that info. Where's that receipt?
Oh, I'm supposed to do all that paperwork. Oh, my bag.
Right, right. And so on top of that, right now, you're also a seasoned professional, right? You've been doing this like you said for a pretty long time, a long time. What advice would you give a younger self entering the design industry today?
I've been talking a lot about this lately, because like I said, I'm coming across a lot of high School students right now. Like, it's crazy, like how many high school kids are reaching out to me right now? I tell them to believe. Now. This believing thing is like multi layered because it's easy to say, oh, you should believe and you're like, Oh, I believe. But do you really? Do we operate and move in ways that we show we believe. Not all the time, George not all the time. And so if I was talking to the younger, my younger self or any young people, I always encourage them that you should believe you can do it. That thing that you think is a disadvantage, it might very well be the best damn thing you should do. It might be the very, very thing. I have a young person right now he shared with me that he speaks Spanish. And he he speaks he reads he writes, right. He has two languages. And he's trying to figure out what to do InDesign. Oh said you have hit the gold mine. Did you know you can do design in language? And he's like, huh, because you know, the school taught them how to design an English. They're designing in your culture, too. So I've been giving him like, read this learn about like, so he didn't believe it was possible. And that's where I'm like, You gotta believe it. You gotta believe it. And,
and you designed and multilingual things, too. That's why I wrote so you understand that space
when I showed him some of the things I did. And when I gave him some of the booklets and we talked about like, Do you realize how many magazines are translated in Spanish, we've got like Cosmo invoke in Spanish not even translated, it's a whole different publication like, and that's an audience that's a that's a vehicle by which you can use your creativity, and your bilingual language, and still do what you want to do. Like you don't have to give one up or hide one, you can have both. You gotta believe it, you've got to believe it's possible, you got to believe it can happen, you got to believe you can do it. Because there will be people that will be forces, there will be places and organizations to tell you otherwise. So if you don't, you better start believing quick. And that's what I've tried to tell them.
Because there's going to be outside forces that are always going to tell you to not do things. And you have to be the one to go all in on yourself. Yes,
yes, there's a there's a gospel song out there says, sometimes you got to encourage yourself. And that's really what I try to remind them to do. Because those outside forces are real. They're very, very, very real. And with just a little mustard seed of belief, you can do anything. And so that's what I'm hopeful that they'll take away from it.
Awesome. Awesome. So what does the future hold for Jacinta Walker and design explorer?
Oh, man, um, what does the future hold for just send up the future for just send us is really, really really to see design, explore, succeed. I've been working for many, many, many, many moons to be able to have a space. And that's what I'm pushing for right now. I am pushing and putting everything into making this thing come to fruition? What does the future hold for design explore? You know, I really love. As I shared before, I love working with educators, I love seeing them. What I'm looking forward to doing in the future with design Explorer is getting more into the curriculum writing space. You know, I've been in classrooms a very long time. I've been in many, many different classrooms and being able to communicate to others. This how to do it is is just so in my face right now, right? Like it i i Just see such a great need to be able to help others to be able to do this type of work. And so those are the two things that I see in the future.
Awesome. Awesome. And lastly, where can our listeners find out more about you design, explore your thesis, and ways that they could support you absolutely.
Everyone, you can always find me at design Explorer. And you know, everyone knows I say it all the time we spell design explorer with two R's real gangster, d s Hi GNEX, Pl O R R. You can always find me there. You can also find me at Jacinta walker.com. So these two places everything is links, lots of good reading materials, lots of press stuff, resources, we put together a huge resource page or on our design explorer channel. And we're always promoting and sharing out other resources so that we can kind of keep these conversations alive and present.
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much to send it it was It was great for me to go a little bit off script as I prepare for an interview like this. But I think the direction that you took this and you know, the dig deep into how your mentorship, how the way you encourage and empower, you know, young people to start to get into design was way more important than any other, you know, sticking to my script, right? Like you said, I have an outline. And whatever happens during the conversation, I'm able to adjust and flip. And I think this was one of those beautiful moments where that was happening just the same way you do it, when those people are trying to ask you, well, what are you gonna talk about? So, I thank you for this enlightening conversation, because it's one of those conversations that I don't think we've ever really had, for the five plus years that we've probably known each other. This is probably the most in depth conversation we've really had about you. But really, how important this this organization and what you put into it is really doing and supporting and creating a space for young people to feel like they can be comfortable in their own skin and learn about things that maybe us when we were younger, kind of felt just normal and some students now don't get those same opportunities. And now they're now we need to create these other entities to help facilitate that and you are one of those people who've been doing it and doing it really, really well. Thank
you so much, George, I appreciate you for having me and invited me and allowing us to have this deep conversation.
Well, I loved it once again, just send a thanks again for this chat. And I can't wait to learn more we're you know, design explore takes you take care have a good day. This has been works in process. Once again, I want to thank my guest Jacinta Walker, I'm inspired to learn how she's been able to not only help and support young creatives, but also the parents to decode the creative base as well. It was great to take time to learn more also about design, explore and hear how she plans in moving forward. If you want to learn more about the research people organizations mentioned in our conversation, please check out the show notes on our website, w i p dot show. Also, if you really liked the episode, please give us a rating on Apple podcast. You can find works on process and all media platforms such as Apple, Google, Spotify, amongst many others. Please follow us on Instagram at works underscore in process. Thanks again. And until next time, follow your gut and trust in the process.