recorded there yeah that's interesting comas Hey everybody. Welcome, this is our new, Morning, Morning Joe approach we have not done one of these morning sessions, we decided to try every now and again, doing something for our international community, which is getting bigger. It's, you know, pretty much everything that we do in the afternoons or evenings doesn't work for them. You know they have to listen to the recording or wake up at four in the morning so every once in a while we're gonna start pinging in some of these, but it's morning for me. Afternoon midday for some All right international group. So welcome everybody if you're new to this, this is a thing that we started well over a year ago, when COVID came down as a way of just hanging out. I had no idea it would be going this long and so we're still kicking, so to speak. So the great thing about this for me is I don't have to prepare as my favorite part, I show up. I usually have a couple comments, sometimes I don't have anything I just turned right to the questions. So this is a place for you to ask your questions and really good ones came in, I will turn to those first, the really good written questions. But if you have something live on, raise your hand, anything is game on this, this is an open, free, free, I was gonna say free for all, it's a free for all, we can talk about whatever we want. But what I do do on occasion, and I'm going to do that today. Just to launch a little bit of conversation and sometimes it triggers some discussion is I often will share a little bit of what I was just working on previous to coming out so every morning I write I get up super early, and I do my morning meditation, and then I come down to my little nerdy study, and I write and so, this morning I was doing some editing on this book I'm writing, some of you know what, I'm tentatively entitled okay I'm mindful, now what exploring the wonders of the mind is a constructive criticism and critique of the mindfulness revolution, pointing out the limitations of mindfulness and then. Okay now what what's next. And so, this morning I was editing the section, read just a couple pages. This is part five is a relatively short book, 60,000 words, which is not super long for a book, I wanted to keep it really tight I actually wanted to keep it like it 30,000 words, but I just can't help myself. So this is part five on outside support, so I thought it would read just a little bit as a way to also allow people to trickle in. See if this lands with you, we can talk about this or anything else. So this is what I was editing this morning. This section may surprise some meditators who think that meditation is capable of handling everything. I know a lot of people who have that kind of attitude. Sometimes people swing the pendulum too far back in the other direction from an initially dismissive attitude towards meditation, to one that views it as a panacea. They go from one extreme to the other. The trick is to find a middle way balancing point that honors the strengths of meditation. So, let me say one thing about the way I write. I'm reading this from a hardcopy so what I do when I'm writing. Those of you who are writers, you know this the essence of writing is rewriting. Anybody who tells you the writing is easy as a liar, or a really bad writer. And those of you who know this, you know, writers, you go, oh yeah, this is a lot of work. And so what I do is I write really rewriting, I write rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite 510 times in electronic form, and then to get a totally different lens on it I always print it out hardcopy. And then before I pitch it to a publisher, which I'm in the process of doing now. I always do a hardcopy print out. And it's amazing you know I think it's like okay, electronically, but when I see it actually printed like boy. Jesus does still need some serious work. So that's what this is this is a printout of this manuscript. So that's why I'm actually reading it, that's just the way I work. So the trick is to find the middle way a balancing point that honors the strength of meditation but also admits its limitations. Without this balancing act, we can fall prey to issues like escapism and meditative bypassing the bypassing occurs when meditation is used as a conscious or unconscious exit strategy from everyday emotional and psychological issues. I see this all the time. And I actually look very closely at my own experience, like, Okay, what am I not saying one of my blind spots around this
spiritual materialism Toberman Jay talked about this almost 50 years ago, spiritual bypassing a term coined by John Wellwood meditative bypassing I just run a little bit with that idea, you know, the notion that we'd super easy to use. These things just as a way to escape. I mean all of us the great physicist to turn into. You kind of psychological, spiritual teacher good one actually, he says you know when we most people set out on the spiritual path. They're unwittingly setting out for heaven. It just, you know, FedEx get me out of here. So to continue my own path as well as working with countless students over the decades, it's not a matter of, if you will be afflicted by these bypassing disorders but when psychologists meditation teacher. Roger Walsh, he's a good friend of mine. He's really amazing guy, Professor PhD MD really dear friend, this is what he says So Roger wall says that 80% of the issues he sees in his personal sessions with meditation students are more the work of a therapist than a meditation instructor, totally my experience is Meditation really is a laxative so what this is a riff on something I wrote earlier in the book, Trump PJ's famous statement you've heard it. Meditation is not a sedative it's a laxative genius. Genius. If Meditation really is a laxative this should come as no surprise, the question then becomes what do you do with all this crap. Do we bear down and try to meditate it out of our lives or do we open up to other skillful means. I see this problem all the time. People have been meditating 1020 3040 years, they're having issues they go see their Mr. Their teacher whatever and they say oh you need to meditate harder, you need to do this you need to do that and because I'm traveling now extensively repeating locations where I've taught. I will see people I've seen 10 2030 years ago, and I am not kidding. They'll pull me aside during a break or whatever and they will share the exact same issue they had three decades ago. And I'm a little bit more you know if they really want my advice I'm a little bit more assertive now saying, try something else. Meditation will not solve everything. Theoretically yes emptiness can handle everything. Yes, in theory, you know, get back to me how that works for you. Practically speaking, doesn't seem to work that way. Very, very rare, like I've never seen it. Okay, so when you relax and open up in meditation, all kinds of repressed material comes up and witnessing it is not enough to resolve the upheaval. This is why parenthetically, why mindfulness is not enough mindfulness sedates. It does not liberate and so even the fruition of mindfulness which other jhana states. This is why the Buddha left his principal teachers, they, they, at the time of the Buddha's teaching. He did not invent mindfulness, by the way, he invented insight the passionate, because he discovered by studying with the teachers of his age. The highest level of teaching they could give him were these absorption states these jhana states, that does not liberate it sedates so it pacifies but it pacifies the arising, but it doesn't work with what caused the arising in the first place. And so this is a colossal limitation of the whole mindfulness thing. So I unload on this with some rigor in this book because there's a big trap of the mindfulness revolution. If you only observe it, as meditation, often exhorts the material may not get digested it will then recycle back into the unconscious mind and continue to express itself symptomatically to digest the material. This material you have to go into the shadow elements to feel them fully relate to them properly and process them completely. Contemporary psychotherapist Rob priests this guy's cool he's written a couple books. One is called the psychology of Tantra, the other one's called The Wisdom of imperfection.
And the challenges of individuation and Buddha's life he's a really cool guy. dB only in depth psychology is kind of dude, and the more I tell you, the more I study Carl Jung. Whoa, what a mind what a what a genius, this guy was. And so Rob. His books are pretty good actually. He's another one in the family like John Wellwood amaz Mark Epstein Ken Wilber. There's a handful of other Bruce Tift really gifted people that work very deeply in the arena of psychology and spirituality So Rob is one. So this comes from his book, psychology of Tantra. While traditional teaching speak of insights and realizations experienced on the path, it is seldom made clear that these insights often come through pain and turmoil and grote, which means feeling the squeeze. Remember, it helps to remember no pressure, no diamond. We sometimes have to break down before we can break through. So just a little bit more and then we'll, we can just open this up, but I will come back when I was editing this today. I was thinking I think this is really important stuff so when we come back again next week I'm out of town, but in two weeks when we come back, I'm going to continue with his rant riff, because, again, I think this is goober important stuff, but just a little bit more. Let's take the experience of anger so early on the book, I talk a little bit about anger, so are we. Returning to that primary emotional poison or was called cliche. In many spiritual and meditative communities anger is anti meditative or anti spiritual. There is much traffic with being politically correct or PC these days but not much time spent on the silliness of being spiritual correct. This is my neologism my new word. Instead of being PC, we are too obsessed with the SFC being SC expresses itself in the folly of being Zen. Instead of being mad when getting mad is sometimes the proper response and getting Zen as classical spiritual bypassing. I'm telling you this from personal experience, you know, I worked in a situation where one of my colleagues once actually kind of unloaded on me you know I was dealing with a client patient who was pretty unworkable and kind of like really just really often so I have to be really quite firm with this person and this person, this other, my colleague pulls me aside, he goes you know that wasn't very Zen of you. And I was like, Dude, I mean, like, What first of all, what does that even mean. And so this is just it's just like a ridiculous way of negating the power of anger, and sometimes that energy incise of anger. It's actually in the classic tantric teachings. This was called the fourth karma, Where you go through four stages are progressive actions, parenthetically somewhat ironically named for actions that don't create karma because they're pure. So even anger has this type of purity and. And so the reason I mentioned this is and I have a supporting quote from Robert masters here, That, you know, in so many communities these days. Oh you know at that side Zana view with you express your anger, I mean like, you don't want to know what I said back I wasn't very sad. Okay, so sorry I got a chuckle at this a little bit. So Robert masters who wrote this book. Spiritual bypassing. He runs with John Well Woods original term to tell students, so this is him to tell students that directly expressing anger, regardless of how it is expressed is not a good thing as some teachers are inclined to do is a disservice to their students. And we then muzzle and mute their anger in the name of spiritual correctness, believing they are sitting with their anger when in fact they're sitting on it. They're repressing it. The relationship between spiritual teacher and student can easily fall into codependency unacknowledged painful, sorry, on acknowledge parent child transfer issues or even cultism, and so I'm going to come back to this I'm going to mark this for next time because I want to continue sharing some of this stuff with you. Because I personally think it's super important. So there's more to say. But what this will turn into is a little bit of an endorsement, that's where I'm going with this, for therapy,
honestly really everybody needs. Everybody needs therapy. Spirituality is just, you know, a higher bandwidth on this spectrum of healing and holding. And so to think that you know somehow. If there's somebody out here who's had experience, you know with meditation handling everything, I would love to talk to you. It just doesn't seem to work that way. In fact I've had I tell you this when I first started teaching on this stuff. I had a number of people come up to me after my presentation really kind of irritated me, you know, saying, I don't agree with you, you know, we don't, you know, Buddhism doesn't need therapy, that's my little double entendre Buddhism doesn't need this stuff. Well, yeah, I mean you know how about all the scandals that are happening with so called Buddhist masters right so don't get me started with that. Anyway, that's my little rant for today. A little bit earlier than normal so I'm more spunky today I have more energy. I hope it's okay. Usually you get me around two o'clock when I've been up for like eight hours and I'm already a little shag. So, um, some really great questions came in today. As usual, these questions, they're so cool it's my favorite part, by far. And so I'm going to ping through these, And then, for those of you who are listening, you can enter one in the chat column, or it's always always always best if you just raise your hand and come on live, so that I can engage in some conversation because some of these questions in fact there's one here I'm going to turn it back to the whoever wrote it, I'll give you the name when I get to it. Because I really couldn't decipher it. So anyway, let me start, and then anybody who wants to add something. It doesn't have to just be a question, it can be an offering. I love when people share a poem, a story, put a post in the chat box. It's not just about me it's about sharing our collective wisdom together our collective experience. So think of it more as like a little chat, chat room thing. Okay, so this is from era so Hi Andrew. I listened to the interview with Claire Johnson. That's the most, I think it's the most recent one we post it Yeah, about transforming nightmares. She's a rock star. I love this girl. It was inspiring and insightful Thank you Claire talked about yoga nidra and going into wild wake essentially wake initiated lucid dreaming, not wake induced wake initiated lucid dreaming. Can you explain the wild technique yes I can, and what is experienced with yoga nidra I'll tell you. And what is your experience with yoga nidra and while I tell you that as well. So wake initiated lucid dream, the term the acronym, and it is kind of wild. This comes from my dear friend Steven the bearer she talked about two principal ways to work with lucid dreams. Di LD dream initiated lucid dream, and wi LD wake initiated lucid dream, and again in his genius, this is really this is really the two ways to do it so most of our lucid dreams are dream initiated lucid dreams dialed.
Which means something in the dream will clue you into the fact that you're dreaming hence a dream initiated a dream sign something weird something will click into the dream and you go oh my gosh, this must be a dream. I would say my experience 95% You know, just shooting from the hip, or more, probably more like 98% of people when they initiate lucidity they initiated through dream initiated lucid dream techniques. But there is this thing called wake initiated. And so what this means is instead of popping consciousness within the dream. You bring consciousness with you from the waking state into the dream. This is a lot harder for most people. For most people, it's it's pretty easy to lose it. It's not that terribly difficult to do it with liminal dreaming, and that's where this ties into yoga nidra so I'm explain, we initiated lucid dreaming, it's just that you do something that allows you to bring a thread of consciousness awareness lucidity with you as you actually fall asleep. It's like the analogy I use the dimmer. You know you're actually just dimming consciousness and maintaining lucidity, the principal way to do that, is a technique is through the Lotus visualization that I write about my book, and that I riff a lot you do the throat visualization you step yourself down it's like almost like a form of self hypnosis, that kind of drops you went to the dream state, with some lucidity, not easy to do, but with some training you can do it. And so how this connects to yoga nidra so yoga nidra neitra is a Sanskrit word for sleep. It is not the same as sleep yoga and Buddhism, it's not. So even though literally it's sleep yoga it's not sleep yoga, the way that Buddhists define it. Yoga Nidra is more really like liminal dreaming, which is maintaining, you know, through a process of progressive relaxation super skillful stuff. It's a way for profound relaxation, and if you're really savvy with it. Yes, you can use yoga nidra as a kind of an off ramp into mostly liminal dreaming, and then if you're really gifted at it actually into lucid dreaming. So I've had experiences with both wake initiated lucid dream, through yoga nidra a little bit with that, but mostly with that liminal space, kind of the pre dream space. I've definitely had some experience with that, where I would go for this is yours if you want to learn more, is Jennifer Joan pears book liminal dreaming, that's what it's called. She has a couple chapters about yoga nidra they're actually some guided yoga nidra practices that's usually the way the practice is done is actually as a guided meditation. So if you want to unpack this more aeroscope Go get Jennifer do pairs book called liminal dreaming she riffs on this a fair amount. Okay, okay from Cara, or Cara I'm sorry Cara, or Cara apologize for my mispronunciations. I want to examine and what I think was a nested lucid dream with you. Okay, let's see what you mean by that. And the role of ego I woke up and knew that I was awakened my dream cool. I said so directly to others on the dream, but soon suspected that it was not true lucidity, because at another level I understood that I was dreaming, and that I was lucid. I was embarrassed. Why there's nobody there.
See dreams are regulatory right, I'm playing with you a little bit hope that's okay. I didn't show my normal electrical buzz when I became lucid. Excuse me. I understand that the ego fears lucidity because of the dissolving of the ego, not quite true. But let me finish your question then I'll unpack this. I understand that the ego fears lucidity because of the dissolving of the ego. But where is the ego and lucidity. And what is that part of my consciousness that is watching me dream that I am lucid is Ness The Dreaming just the ego coming in and stopping lucidity, and where does the ego go when I become lucid, okay. Well first of all, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a nested dream. When I hear that term, I think of what's what's called recursive dreams are dreams within dreams. So maybe that's what you're talking about is a recursive dream. So if that's what it is, then maybe we have something to talk about about here but here's the, the important thing here is that the ego doesn't necessarily fear lucidity because the ego is dissolving ego is not dissolving in a lucid dream, it's not, it's not ego actually dissolves in the liminal space, the narrative structure, ego dissolves in the liminal space not in lucid dreaming. Unless you're doing like stage nine of Dream Yoga, it's only then the ego dissolves. Most of our dreams, ego is back online, the sense of ego is reconstituted, the sense of self and others we constituted you don't see the dream is anything but real. That's ego. So the ego doesn't doesn't really go offline in a lucid dream, unless you're at the very highest stages of Dream Yoga, when you're actually transitioning to the dissolution altogether that transitions into full blown sleep yoga. If you want to riff on this I always for those of you who may be new I always try to connect this to resources, Evan Thompson writes brilliantly about this in a deep analytic, scientific, philosophical way in his book waking, Dreaming being, this is a tour de force or listened to my interview with him we talked about this, where this book is so brilliant because it talks about how the structure of ego comes online comes offline in all these different states. Dreaming sleeping lucid dreaming lucid sleep dying is a tour de force that talks about all this kind of stuff including this this thing that heat, he doesn't term it but he he references it from the Indian tradition Omkara I making. And so when we fall asleep and go through these spaces. We can watch I'm making an eye breaking we can see how things come together and how things fall apart so his book really goes into this stuff. So if you really want to know this read this 300 Page masterpiece. So ego does not go offline in the city, it just doesn't. Unless you're doing with some very minor and rare if you having what's called 90 and a dream of clarity, but a dream of clear light, super advanced highest form of dreaming, extremely rare, where there's absolutely no dissolution that there's no sense of self and other in the dream, this is like postdoc dreaming. And if you want to learn about that turns on one girl Ruby che his book that Tibetan Yoga is a dream and sleep. This is the highest form of wall dreaming. So that's really rare type of dream, most lucid dreams, he goes online. What is that part of my consciousness that is watching me dream that I am lucid. Well this is where again read Evans stuff where he talks about the difference between dreamer and dreamt and the aspects of self that are actually involved in the dream and what is seeing what we can have these brief recursive differentiation, experiences, that's what I think you're alluding to as nesting, we can experience this at any point, these are just the more you know kind of refined recursive levels of identity. So, what you could say is, which part of my consciousness that is watching me dream. Well, it's still another form of consciousness is just a more refined, kind of retreated form of awareness, it's still not non dual pristine consciousness, it's still not non dual awareness, there's still consciousness, it's called metacognition. It's being aware of awareness, and while that's really cool, it's again, it's still not the final step. So last thing is just the dreaming just the ego coming in and stopping lucidity what doesn't really stop lucidity.
Where does the ego go when I become lucid, it doesn't go. It doesn't go, it's there. If you're saying the dream is other than you. Ego is there, if you're seeing the dream in any way as being real even a lucid dream, ego was there. So again just to reiterate, lucid dreams are still ego still pretty much intact. Unless you're having a dream of clear like super rare dream, or unless you're having eighth or ninth stage Dream Yoga. Okay. Andrew. Who is this, it's me, it's Khara. Oh, okay, I thought it was hearing a voice from the Dharmakaya. That could also be true but not true too.
So you've got it mostly what I think what I was trying to get at is that, like I've been lucid quite a few times over the past year. This did not feel like lucidity, even though I knew I was awake so you did answer that question that the ego doesn't go offline, it just gets meta meta and, and I was using a term I was calling it nested because I heard you call it nested in one of the webinar series, so I was like, oh, like the nesting doll. So then that people can have up to seven of these. And the reason I was embarrassed in the dream is that I was telling everybody hey I'm awake. Look at this. Don't you want this with me, and nobody gave a shit. I was like, Oh my God, and also I knew it was different because I wasn't having that electrical buzz, but I guess what I mean by the ego is that the resistance to that the, that the only thing I can think of is that the fear, the reason why I'm not becoming really lucid in dreaming more is that my ego is resisting that,
no, that's what you mean, I agree. Yes, if that's what you mean I agree and and I think if you were on the webinar. Yesterday I talked about this, remember when I was talking about this kind of internal conflict of interest that can sometimes arise. And so if that's what you're saying absolutely there there's part of you that you go like part of you that just doesn't want to see the stuff that just doesn't want to go there. So if that's what you're saying, totally agree with you, and so therefore, even that is regulatory right. So even that so called failure, that's the cool thing about this stuff there are no failures here. Even the failures are regulatory because they will reveal to you where you're stuck, or where a particular habitual pattern is still super grooved. And so again, this is one reason Dream Yoga is a bit advanced, because people don't want to be so exposed or in your case. Yeah, I love what you said, you know, embarrassed, That's like beautiful I love it. Right. But what you're saying there is absolutely spot on. There, there, there the good part of you does not want to go into these deeper domains because there's no room at these higher levels for personal identity, ego doesn't fit in here. It's like, you know Trump image I said famously ego can't attend its own funeral, and so you're heading towards the funeral, with these practices. And so that part. Totally agree.
But so what is that what is that so instead of becoming really lucid, I was telling people that I was lucid. So, what is that little switch of the ego that says, I'm going to watch myself. Say I'm lucid and know that I'm not like what is the part, it's just a different finer ego coming in.
I think so it's a little homunculus there you know it's just like this. Again, this kind of little recursive sense of identity, but again just like you're saying as long as there's still a sense of me perceiving that me being conscious of that, you're still within the realm of ego, it's just that, like what you said was beautiful meta meta meta is just another awareness of awareness, that in itself you know it's super interesting and potentially it's fundamentally liberating. But, in and of itself as long as there's still duality, being experienced, you haven't transcended it yet. Okay. Yeah. All right, I love it, Thank you for sharing that. That's awesome. Okay, from Joanna p Okay is the truth, much simpler than we can perceive. I'm going to answer kind of these as I go along because some of these are longer is the truth, much simpler than we can perceive. Well, more than we want to perceive it, it's incredibly simple easier, you know, what we're looking for Joanna is no kidding. It's hiding in plain sight. You know they say on the Mahamudra tradition, famously, it's so obvious we don't see it it's so simple, we don't believe it. It's so easy we don't trust it. So really, on one level, in fact the more advanced the teaching gets the simpler it is. As you may know, in your experience, the more advanced the teaching is the less there is to say, so when you teach Mahamudra instruction the highest highest teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. You know, there's hardly anything to say the shortest teaching and the Mahayana would call the heart sutras. There's the sutra 25,000 verses, and they get shorter and shorter shorter to the Heart Sutra. And then the irreducible expression of the present apartamenty Teacher teachings is the letter A. That's it. That's it. So yes, it's simpler than you will ever imagine and one day, when you have that recognition. It's actually quite common for people to have this like, Oh my gosh. Can it really be that simple. I really listen to what I'm saying here. Can it really be this obvious. Can it really be this simple. Yes it is. Okay, back to you and why does it sound so complicated, it's only complicated for the egos perspective. It's not complicated, it's super simple. All these complexities the 84,000 dharmas 84,000 teachings that the Buddha taught. They all came about merely as a way to match the complexity of the modern mind. It just is like you know, you know, the teacher and some of them have tried it. A lot of masters when they first come to the West have this kind of Nike approach right just do it doesn't work right they can come in and just say, Ah, great, that's it, that's all I have to say, Ah, okay, but Right. Not enough there to chew on. So all the teachings are complicated to match the skillful means, you know, skillful means means meeting people where they're at, not where you're at. So the teachings are complicated because we're complicated. Really, you'll discover this and your path. Okay, back to you. For example is meditation, a state of hypnosis. No, it's the state of de hypnosis, were hypnotized meditation de hypnotizes, but back to you. It's a meditation state of hypnosis really for that there are quite simple steps not we crying vast amounts of teachings, and it's available to all for free because it's our innate nature in that case, yes. You don't have to do anything, really, in fact, sometimes i i tongue in cheek used to say, really when people used to ask me oh geez, you're a meditator. You belong to the center, what do you guys do at your meditation center. I often used to say well you know we do nothing, but, but we do it really well. It's really hard to do nothing. Well, we're not human beings we're human doings. So all these doings all these dharmas, their match, they're there to match human doers not human beings. So fundamentally, it's incredibly simple. Last one from you if emptiness is our nature, why is it so complicated to teach it. Because ego doesn't want to hear it, ego doesn't want to hear it just doesn't. So there's a lot of, you know, there's this internal conflict of interest going on you know there's part of you that doesn't want to hear this stuff because it there's again no room for personal identity, no room for ego in this stuff. Okay. Oh, here's a comment from Joanna, the same Joanna. At the very bottom.
This is my recent discovery everyone needs therapy even more than hypnotherapy, where one can address subconscious not surface only totally agree, totally 100% Agree. Okay. Okay, Tim So Andrew, as previously mentioned the three year retreat, he attended, and how produce great benefit. Can you share more about that and how to possibly attend one, okay. Did you stay at a temple or center for the whole three years are you to come by commute some of the time. Was that not extremely difficult. Having a dental practice Yeah, it killed everything basically I'll tell you about that. Do you think this is an experience we could duplicate at home. Nope. Would that be much too difficult. Yep. Next question. So what happens when you get me early in the morning I'm frisky, you know Tim, I will speak a little bit about it on my main site I wrote it right the first thing I wrote before I started to become a writer, a fake writer I tried, but I'm still a fake writer, the very first piece I wrote, I think you'll find it on my main site. It's called from rocks to rubies rocks into rubies rocks into rubies. It's about my experience a three year retreat, so I will refer you to that because I have like, you know, 20 pages on that. But I will say a little bit about it, um, yeah, was the most important thing I've ever done, hands down. It cost me everything. I lost my marriage. I lost my job, I lost my house. I lost everything. It was like dying. But you know, pardon the rebirth thing you know, reborn, it was the most profound thing I ever did, by dying before I died. I you know I saw more about myself. In those three years than my entire life so is absolutely the most important thing I've ever done. It was a unique construction traumatique designed it was actually a five year retreat. One year in one year out when you're in when you're out when you're in and so it was brilliant because these practices come a lot of reasons people do two three year retreats is because you think you got a lot of time in three years. These practices come so fast, there's so many of them that you can hardly keep up, you can't process it and so the genius of the way Trungpa J designed it is you're in for a year you come out you mix your meditation with your life, you know this is a commuting thing when I was in there at no commuting, it was a lockdown we are in a walled compound shut off from a world, total isolation. So there was no commuting there. There was just a commute for each year. And so the year out allowed me to digest incorporate stabilize, what I had experienced in the year end, and it allowed me to prepare for the upcoming year. So it was a five year retreat, by far the best thing I've ever done. I stayed in a meditation center in the wilds of northern Canada. Was it difficult. Yeah, that's why I wrote my first book, The Power in the pain. There was more pain than power. It was, it was a detox, the whole thing that I wouldn't say the whole thing, the first four months, three months were extremely difficult for me. It was a detox I felt like I was in a detox I've never been an addict, but I realized that I write about it in my book power and pain, this chapter on substance abuse, that I am a substance abuser I abuse form I abuse thought, I've used matter. And so it was a really powerful, 12 kind of 12 Step detox program, really. Can you duplicate this at home. No, you can't. That's not to say that what you do at home isn't valuable it's super valuable. But three retreat, super requested sequestered super formal I was a monk with shaved head, robes, the whole thing all the vows. You can't do that at home. Yeah, so I decided that Tim I read the article I wrote my first real thing that I started writing called rocks into rubies, it's on my site, I talked a little bit about it there. Okay. All right, let me get a live one from Deborah, she's been waiting, and then there's a couple of more good ones written in come to them.
I haven't seen you in a long time, I just something that I was thinking about the other day about ego and is the truth. Easier than we think it is. This listening, I was on a different site, and a live webinar, and some M. And we were talking about, total relaxation sort of the you know the somatic descent that you have referred to from Reggie Ray, and one of the listeners, said, if we, if we let our energy, our attention, melt into the earth, which is sort of, you know what he says and you let it melt into your. I don't want to polluting the earth, aren't we, aren't we letting all our negative, and I've heard this question before. And I'm, I mean it's it's you know, I mean, we think badly of ourselves so you know that's the shame of that question,
I love it doesn't sound sorry.
Um, but I realized that, you know, the teacher gave an answer response to that. But what I realized is that in our practice. We're not by by learning to be a big mind and to be known do all with. We already are. And so the meditation, is just a recognition that we already are. But the ego gets in the way by thinking things like this like we're polluting or we're causing trouble or whatever. Anyway, I just wanted to share that it was a really nice revelation for me that it's recognition more than doing anything that isn't already there. Exactly right. Yeah, it
sounds like Chris Wallace is stuff. That's absolutely right, you know, that's the fun of you just nailed it. I mean you just nailed it. The number, I mean is when people ask me or sometimes I'll say, you know, there's the irreducible instruction. The only thing you have to do is relax. That's it, right, because the nature of the mind is already pristine, pure the nature of reality is already dualistic How can you attain something you already have. You already have driving is is is contra indicated, Trump Jay said, striving at these levels is the only obstacle, but you know, with that said, you have the whole relativity thing, so I'm just flow into the mix that everything you say 100% agree with it, that the nature of reality is now dualistic, there's only Nirvana, there's only truth samsara is partial or no recognition of nirvana. And that in itself is a colossal thing to assert, and to really deeply understand in terms of right view, because it informs the entirety of the path. It's all about relaxation and opening and so there's so much to say here, in fact, maybe I'll riff on this at some point here I write about it in the book, the two ways to look at meditation. One is a more relativistic way of acquiring training I'm going to achieve mindfulness I'm going to achieve inside all these things. Well that's a relative way, the more absolute way like this person is saying, which is so spot on. It's a process of dis covery. You don't have to attain these they're already within you, you have to actualize them and so recognition is everything. It's like, you know there's that Book of the Dead right recognition and liberation or simultaneous. It's the highest form of liberation and in Buddhism, it's called Sahaja Yana, the highest vehicle it even transcends flattery on the vehicle self liberation based on recognition. So everything you're saying 100% Agree. However, with that said, somebody can to, you know, meditation versus therapy. These are absolute level teachings, and it's very easy to fall into absolutism thinking that somehow that can supersede everything theoretically, It can practically doesn't seem to work that way. And so therefore you have all these relative skill for means you know, the entire $84,000 You have all the meditations and and the spirit of integral approaches which I'm a huge fan of you have shadow work you have therapy you have bodywork, You have all these other aspects who pie is to work with the spectrum of our being, you're not putting all your eggs in one absolute cystic basket. And this is awesome, awesome. So anyway, thank you for that awesome job I love it, Thank you so much Condorcet. Oh, are you not gonna pollute the earth that made me chuckle. Now, like you're not gonna pollute the Earth. Do it register. Yeah, do the descent thing. Do you doubt yourself or whatever your Mother Earth can totally handle this right, First of all it's empty. It's holding. So better to think of, you know, sending that into the earth and sending a real pollution into the world by not doing this. That's real pollution. I love this, this is great, maybe we should do one of these more often when I'm more awake, I'm more chipper in the morning. Okay, from Robert. I have a car, I have a kind of question about the headless meditation, who I love this practice, yes. But also, could you say more about your feeling experience of it, I can't, I love this practice. So let me go through it, then I'll run my riff. I enjoy this experience very much. And it's a new and recent experience for me it's a relief to get rid of my brain. No kidding. Huh, for any moment, I find sometimes I do it in one place, or if I'm walking, that's usually the way I do it as well. Robert, I can really connect with bringing an object to my shoulders, I'll explain this meditation for those of you who don't like know what this really weird thing is why we're talking about. I can really connect with bringing an object onto my shoulders, it's like a draws towards me, it's still there in on me at the same time, my body feels all Dopey and disconnected from my usual stiffness and clunkiness. I love these, some of these questions. Other times, usually after a few attempts. I'm struggling to keep my head off. So I can put the other thing there, and I'm fighting a bit in my mind to do it, oh this is hysterical. This would be like an SNL episode you know we need Chad Bandy K, we need, we need to write to SNL and get Chad from SNL to do this, he's my new hero by the way. Hello, this guy.
Okay, um, I find it. I find it hard to phrase the question, but how long would you have any object rest on you and what processes, would you use to reduce the separateness if you get what I mean. Oh this is hysterical Robert I love this stuff so the headless presentation. Actually I learned this from Ken Wilber, a number of years ago, my dear bud when he told me about this book that I had not read called by Douglas Harding called something like what's it called, oh Zen and the Art of the headless or bury if you're on one of my, my scroller friends if you can go on, it's Douglas Harding. The book on headless as I space the, the title is a short little very quirky book about this guy Douglas Harding who goes into the Himalayas and had this has this really cool experience of like being headless right and so when I read it I was talking to Ken about it I started doing this thing, and it really connected with me, so to speak by disconnecting my head so what do I write about it at some length in my book dreams of light. It's a pretty profound practice because you know we can do it for just a second. You know, you literally just imagine your head is just gone right. So, you're, you're, you're perceiving the world but there's no reference point. That's the key. It's profound I mean even Tilopa one of the great fathers of Mahamudra, the highest teachings of of cardiotoxic Buddhism says you know when the mind is free of reference points. This is Mahamudra, one one has become accustomed to this, the Enlightenment unsurpassable has been achieved. Well what's the principle reference body, head, head, and so I do this a lot, you know, literally, it's a very powerful contemplation, it's uh you know you just reflect like head gone, right. And then you just obviously you're totally faking it. But then you're kind of looking around, and it's just when you really kind of get into it it's it's fantastically creepy. It's so awesome. Where the thing that you previously looked at. Now it's sitting on your shoulders. So this is what Roberts talking about it completely invites the dissolution of duality, There's no out there out there what used to be the world is now sitting on your, on your shoulders. And so, I'll refer you to my book James of like his I have a whole chapter on this headless wonders the title of the chapter. This is a very profound practice, and it's quirky, it's funny, but it's also really deep. And the way I work with it. Robert is mostly in the way you are intimating. I do the quick lap, it's like I put my head in the spiritual guillotine. And I flash on it. And so, you know look like you're saying I'll go for a walk. And then it's like okay, head off. Right. And so I, you know, then I feel enlightened, because I don't know, it's an interesting player that I don't feel this bowling wall on my head anymore. And so like you know I'm gone, but there's still a world. And so, um, you know, if you're on Robin wanted to say or add or ask anything outside of that all's I can say is continue to do it. Personally, the way I work with it is in the spirit of these so called more advanced formulas practices short sessions repeated often, that's just my style. I find personally that if I do it for too long. I can't fake it anymore I just get numb. But I do a quick lap Blakeman judiciaries blade comes down FOUP had gone. And then it's a totally it's a fake IP practice you know I'm just looking around and going well, there's still an entire world here but it's no longer out there it's resting on my shoulders, it's actually me. Right, so it's a really it's a very powerful practice of non duality. So read Douglas Harding's book. It's really quirky it's very fun. It's super hip, so to speak, and my book dreams of lead I have a whole chapter on it called headless wonder so thanks for that, offering Robert that's, that's awesome. Andrew Robert I saw Robert wrote in the chat, he, he asked, Can you talk about what headroom means to. Yeah, so this column, this is the last. This comes from the last section in that chapter with a reference of Trump RBJ, there's that quote from him if I had the book here oh, let me pull it. Yeah, this this reference comes from. Give me two seconds. From a line from the genre, figure data. 137 is one of the best chapters in the book if I might say, I think it's super. It's like the, it's like the highlight of the book, in terms of practice so here. So this is what he's talking about.
Okay, so let's see here. Troy garbage J the sky turns into a big blue pancake and drops on our head. Our perspective becomes completely different. We are talking about how we can develop headroom headroom or the space above us is the important thing. We are interested in how space could provide us with a relationship to reality. That's the key, right there, how space can provide us with a relationship to reality. That's it, you know, meditation altogether. Habituation to openness to habituation to space habituation to emptiness, but in this case, specifically, it's a it's a play on the word head room, where you're just basically trying to ventilate open accommodate and mix your mind with space. So that's the reference there that it comes from the the Dadra trying to develop this. Yeah, basically headroom headspace right. Isn't there an app by them. 40 million 40 million downloads 40 million downloads headspace, but it's about mindfulness doesn't even go into this stuff. So I should launch another one headspace, the real deal. Right. What do you think Andy, do we can we can we call out that market three could swing it, let's do it. Oh, okay we got Joanna so. Okay so here we go from Peter. Hi, and you're not sure I totally understand what you meant when you said that even the lucid dreams the ego does not normally go offline, it doesn't. So does that mean one is still essentially diluted in the lucid dream. Yes, it does. And that's why lucid dreaming is not the same as Dream Yoga because you're still ego is fully operational in a lucid dream. Dream Yoga works with emptiness, Dream Yoga works to de reify the ego that is still fully online and lucid dreaming. Absolutely. What that is the real meaning here of lucidity lucidity is a code word for awareness. So it's a multi valent term here means obviously being aware of a dream. When you're dreaming, but awareness in this deeper sense Peter is awareness that fundamentally at the highest stages of the dream space. The dream, ego can in fact go offline. And that's when it transitions into dreams of clear light or sleep yoga. Okay and again, if you haven't read it, Peter, Evan Thompson waking, dreaming being, he talks about this, a ton. Highly recommended. Okay, how are we doing here, A Virginia, a couple of days ago, couple of Monday's ago as a guided meditation meeting you suggested as our homework that we ask ourselves while we meditate, where our mind is, oh yes, to great classic Mahamudra, so this is, those of you who may not have been attending on Monday nights we do this guided meditation thing we started it maybe three months ago. And a number of weeks ago we started a little rant or riff on analytic meditation. We started by dissecting anger, and then we started getting a little bit deeper, like dissecting this thing called self, asking the question, Who am I, and then in relation to Virginia's. Another question where analytic meditation progresses into what's called the Mahamudra investigations, really powerful contemplations where's mine. So, back to you. I've been doing my homework and as I have looked for my mind is during meditation, and have a hard time finding it yes that's what we talked about on Monday right if you weren't there. Not finding is the best finding. It's so perfect. There's nothing there, but then nothing is not No, it's not nothingness, it's no thingness. So you will find nothing but there's still something there, it's just not a thing. What is it light luminosity awareness. Back to you, I've also began to question my thoughts, my emotions and the distinction between the two as well I've wondered what the source of my consciousness is there is no source. There's no source. Well, let me say that. Let me finish it and I'll come back to that, there provisionally depending on how you're using the word consciousness there is a source, and an absolute level if you're, if you're conflating consciousness with awareness, there is no source, it's worthless, but to continue with you, wondering what the source of my consciousness is, and is that source one and the same for my awareness.
I'll get to these, I suppose it's too much to ask, you know it's not here to define all these terms but might you offer some advice on how to look at some of these functions, so as to help us clarify and help away how they are working together, which deserves more focus, great set of questions Virginia spot on. Oh my gosh so much to say here so again in the spirit of giving you something to work with. This is why maps of the mind are so bloody helpful, because the traditions actually have really elegant maps that articulate this whole thing. And so, again, you know, to me, one of the most articulate elegant maps here is the yoga Chara literally insights that come from meditation, hence the yoga Chara derived from yoga, derived from direct, you'll get valid cognition. And so I highly recommend you study the A consciousnesses, a lot of literature here again since I happen to have. Oh, what a surprise I happen to have this book right here in this book, dreams of like my latest book, I have two chapters on the eight consciousnesses, where I talk about this actually quite a bit so if you haven't read it, that's worth a read. Also, take not Han understanding our mind commentary and Basu bondas treatises on the eight consciousnesses, there's so much on this Carl Burnham also has written a ton. You really want to work with this stuff. yogacharya is the place to go, because that distinguishes between consciousness and awareness so but briefly, just to give you some feedback, consciousness. If you're in contradistinction to awareness, consciousness does have a source, and that source is awareness, because consciousness is in fact bifurcated divided fractured awareness that's what consciousness is. So consciousness has a source, as the eighth consciousness. And as as basically therefore rising from awareness, awareness does not have a source. Awareness is sauceless because awareness is the essence of reality. So consciousness has a source, because it's dualistic awareness does not awareness wisdom is non dualistic, it does not have a source it's the essence of everything. It's not, if you're super careful, you can say it's the source, but it's even that is problematic. Robert Thurman talks about this is really brilliant emptiness is not the source. It's the essence, this ties into the earlier comment question about the non duality the immediacy, the simplicity that if there was a source, you would think you'd have to go back to some source. No, you know, because there is no source emptiness is the essence, it's not the source, awareness is the essence, it's not the source. And so therefore, that if you're following it that empowers the utter immediacy of the whole thing right here right now. That's all right there, We just have to wake up to it. Some advice on how to look at some of these functions as to help us clarify and help away. Yeah, study the yoga Chara also study, you know, the other one that immediately comes to mind there's so much literature here Khenpo Rinpoche is progressive stages of meditation on emptiness, very similar to this kind of journey through the mind. These maps are really helpful because they help us understand our experience right so you remember the three stages of understanding experience realization. Well it's really important to understand that Trifecta because if you have experiences without understanding you don't understand what's happening, you know, geez, I was like what the heck was that. So very often people get it and in fact, I wrote about it in my first book power in pain. I've had experiences before I had the proper understanding that became really pretty spooky, like, what, what the heck is this I'm losing my mind, is because I had an experience on what you could say prematurely. Before, I had the proper understanding. So, to understand to retrofit the understanding study these really elegant maps of which there are many, but from a relativistic point of view, construction point of view of ego to a consciousness or supreme, to go beyond that, then you progress into the teachings or Mahamudra the teachings on emptiness, progressive stages of meditation and emptiness, etc. So Virginia would start with that, but so good for you for doing this I mean that's really awesome.
And so there's one question from Lisa if you're here I'm going to ask you to paraphrase this because as long labyrinthian, and I didn't understand some of the deer so if you're here in Ken's zip line, your question to me I will deal with it, but I read this a couple times and it's like, I don't quite get it. So if you're there and want to come on and talk about what you're interested in, I'm here to talk about it with you but otherwise that this one I can't quite tease apart. Are you here. Yes, if you mean you are further away.
Yeah, you destroying my ego because you're the first English speaker who never understands what I write.
It's not that I don't understand it, it's just, it's, you know the turn labyrinthian. It's very complex and threaded and for the purposes of time, I'm gonna ask you to just summarize what would you want me to take and run with this because it's good stuff. I just need to zip down a little bit. Okay,
so I listened to your interview with Ellen Wallace. And it was, I hope I can can remember now, because I don't have the written thing, I sent it to you. And it was about the. And this I have discussed with several Buddhist teachers and monks, and they all said, Go away with that you don't understand it right, because they are coming from a blue spirit, dynamic blue mindset,
wealth, wealth, good for you. That's exactly right.
Yep. And that is absolute truth telling. And not question your ancestors and your teachers and your gurus, because everything is set.
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Yeah, good for you. So I must say some guys like me during che they are more advanced because they are, they have grown up with Western thinking. And I think they are more complex. Especially mean you're in good shape. Yeah. And my, my question. To put it shortly, is. And we discussed this as well, about evolution and the absolute and the relative. Right. And so the question is, are the stages, containing the states, or the other way around. Or are the structures, prior or other, the stages prior and if I follow the Buddhist teaching the stages are prior and the final state. The Enlightenment state is containing everything.
The states are prior, the states are prior this this the stages arise within the states.
Yes, that's what the Buddhist teachers say it well, but how do, how can we tell that we just look at about 6000 years of human consciousness development, right,
what else can we do.
Well, maybe there is something deeper than that. Maybe, and they all said no it's impossible because we reach the final state,
I agree with you on that. I love what you're saying there, I'm agnostic on that, and I actually resonate more with what you just said how do we know how do we know this is the final final. Who knows, the Buddha say it's the final final all the monks you talked to say so final final. You know it's interesting, another teacher to explore here I mentioned all moss. He's a very interesting guy, and every time he writes a book, you know his next book is about, oh my gosh I found something more, or you could say find something less. And so I'm not I don't totally track his stuff. But I find that very interesting and I. Here's the way I land on this list, I'm agnostic, I have an open mind on this. I don't know. I mean I drank the Tibetan Buddhist Kool Aid. I'm a deep student of also Kashmir Shaivism, and the non dual Taoist traditions, I love the whole non duality thing. And it makes sense to me that, you know, Absolute emptiness formlessness, is the ultimate ultimate, but I can't say what's total authority and, you know, if, if someone like the Buddha who proclaims omniscience. That's kind of tautological, you know, I mean how can you say that and know for sure. So this is where you know we have to balance, kind of the Western notions of criticality healthy skepticism. With traditional acquiescence to proclamations of ultimacy. I am a little bit more like you, I while I completely resonate deeply honor profoundly respect what all these non wisdom traditions have to say, because I'm a Westerner because I'm a little bit more skeptical bring my scientific lens to this, I I'm also okay with the open question, and again this is why I love Evan Thompson's work, he's a, he's on the legacy that the lineage of Francisco Varela the great neuroscientists who was a really profound proponent of the power of an open question, that it's okay not to know. In fact, in some ways it's a whole lot healthier, not to know. And so when people kind of bang their fists and profess ultimate, you know, absolute cystic things like some teachers do. My first thing is, what's the psychological impetus for this certitude, is it in fact are you suddenly reifying something as a way to make you certain again I'm open on this is that I in fact, proclaiming their their conviction their ZG their confidence, their absolute, maybe that's beautiful. but I'm, you know, this is this is an unanswerable question, but I'm a little bit more in line with you I'm agnostic, I don't know. Um, so I'll leave it at that, I guess like, you know, jeez, it's nice for you to say that but you know just because another somebody else said it. And just because it's been referenced for hundreds of years. I mean, how do we know. So, I'll just leave it at that. I'm okay. Question
I love, I love the approach of not knowing is even more, more exciting than
beginner's mind in the Zen. This is why I love this anyway. Speaking of no head. The whole Zen, you know tradition of divine ignorance, not knowing, don't know mind, you know the don't know mind. That to me is like, I'm good with that. And this is why I love also in the garden. So the next time one of these teachers kind of pulls this trick on you. Well maybe remind them that the highest teachings of the gardener, you know the principles of non affirming negation, non affirming is the most important thing. It negates the gates, the gates, the gates, it does not profess. And so, leave that non affirming bring the non affirming back in and be agnostic be open don't know mind. And again, there's so much more wonder and beauty and mystery, mystery when you have this child like okay well let's just be open to whatever happens. So I think for me it's like the center there's near enemies, there's, there's promises and perils. There's something really beautiful about certitude and conviction, you know there's something really quite like strength the about that, that's nice, but the immediate massive near enemy is hubris and all this shadow sighs of certainty that people will fight or die and kill for, right,
it's a closed system finally.
So let's let's be open. Habituation you know, not only is meditation habituation to openness. It's also habituation to openness in terms of doctrines and teachings and certitude and that sort of thing. So to me it's like again the integral perspective since you're bringing in that thing. Bringing in states and structures and being more open and this is why I'm such a huge fan of integral thinking integral approaches because otherwise, it's so easy fast style dismissive to fall into your certainty that you have all this explanatory supremacy, anytime I hear that I just get a little bored, that's like really, that's just ego coming back into play, in my opinion. So I agree with you and I said, Thank you. Okay, else before we clock out for today. Let me look at the chat column. Oh nice comments. Okay, so is there anything in the chat column handy I need to answer here. Are we good. I think, I don't really look at these as Joanna said I think in Hinduism, we have not this not this. Yeah, neti neti. It's the Hindi version of the apophatic way. Absolutely. Please, definitely check out Don Hoffman's latest interview. Yeah, read Don Hoffman's book. I probably should start at the top. I put most of the chat comments into the document of the job. Yeah, read his book The case against reality. It's really good. But again, it's not the complete view, I'm a huge fan of his work, but it's more it's a repeal it's not a replace. He doesn't replace it, He, he repeals he helps repeal materialism. It doesn't go far enough in my opinion but it's brilliant, no criticism, it's just brilliant. Okay. All right, the rest of it looks pretty good Evan Thompson's waking, dreaming being that's there. The rest of it looks good. Thanks everybody, see what happens when I get up earlier, I'm a little bit more chipper frisky universal hope it's okay. We'll do this more often to pay homage to our international community which is going in the wonderful Europeans who have to wake up in the middle of the night, otherwise you know they don't get a chance to do anything live. So that's why we really initiated the, the little reminder emails, because we're going to be pinging back a little bit forth mostly on these Thursday events, you know, allowing international people to join us live. So thank you everybody, it's always great fun. Even though I'm gone next week we will do something, some somebody will show up or we'll play an interview or something so even though I'm not here and actually Joseph my friend we're doing things together, he's also not available. If we don't have a kind of live presentation there will be some kind of offering so that this kind of constancy will continue. So, we do this totally geeky thing now everybody turns on their camera, everybody turns up off their mute so we'll have a chance to say goodbye we wave
