Standing Committee on Access to Information Privacy and ethics. I'd like to remind members and the public that today's meeting is televised and will be made available via the House of Commons website. Now pursuant to the motion adopted by the Committee on Friday, December the 11th 2020. The committee is resuming its study on the protection of privacy and reputation on platforms such as Pornhub. With us today, we have the Minister of Public safety and emergency preparedness, the Honorable bill Blair, and Minister of Justice, the Honorable David lametti. And the Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda lucki. Now we are starting a little late. So I'm going to ask the the ministers to introduce the officials that they have joining them. Before we get started, I'm going to just ask for the committee's indulgence for just one second, when we last met, we did have a discussion, there was a growing consensus among committee amongst committee members to hear from the law clerk. And so we have set aside the third hour of this meeting, to hear from the law clerk to provide us information that would be helpful in making decision with regards to issues that were being discussed at our last meeting. So I will just inform members that the law clerk is prepared to, to answer those questions at at one o'clock today. And so we will, we will, I just wanted to make that, that members aware of that. And so that's what we will turn to after the first two hours of this meeting. ministers will turn to you now and hear from you, I believe, Minister Blair, will you go first?
Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good morning to members of this committee. I'd like to begin by thanking you all for the invitation to join you this morning for this very important and very timely study on a very significant issue. Mr. Chair, I think as everyone recognizes the sexual abuse and exploitation of a child, any child, in any context, in any platform, and in any place is intolerable and unacceptable. It is the most heinous of crimes, and deserves society's strongest condemnation and our effective response. recording the sexual abuse of a child can have significant lifelong impacts on both the victims and the survivors of this crime. And sadly, as some of these victims grow older, many come to realize that their images continue to be circulated on the internet, and they are re victimized over and over again, as this material is shared. I'd like to take this opportunity to recognize the remarkable courage and resilience of survivors in coming forward and speaking out I've had an opportunity to meet with
11 and and I think I share this committee's a Paul at reports of this point material of this kind has been found on platforms. And and and it is unacceptable that victims have encountered difficulties in getting companies to remove this illegal contact content. Their stories and experiences remind us all of the important work that we must do in our doing to protect children and youth. The Government of Canada plays a leading role in these efforts to combat online child sexual exploitation. And Mr. Chair, we are taking action to increase awareness and to reduce the stigma of reporting. This is important because we know that a number of reported cases is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the true scale of this most heinous of crimes. Internet companies must also do more to protect children, and we are taking steps to hold them to account for their role in this. We are also taking action to bring more perpetrators to justice by supporting efforts by to detect, investigate and prosecute these cases. I have asked the RCMP content Commissioner to continue to work with her provincial and territorial counterparts to address this crime and to ensure that prosecutions are done when deemed appropriate by evidence and by law enforcement. Canada's national strategy on this issue is led by public safety Canada, which works in partnership with the RCMP, the Department of Justice and the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, or as it's very often known c three P. We are backing this national strategy with ongoing annual funding of more than $18 million and that includes for support for cyber tip.ca a national tip line operated by C three P. It also includes $5.8 million dollars in ongoing funding, announced in 2018 to increase the investigative capacity of the RCMP national child exploitation crime center. And on top of this in budget 2019. We invested $22.2 million over three years in additional funding to better protect children from this horrendous crime. And of that amount Mr. Chair $15 million is specifically aimed at assessing the capacity of internet child exploitation units in municipal and Provincial Police Services right across Canada. These Specialized units are dedicated to investigating cases online child sexual exploitation. investments in budget 2019 are also helping to increase public awareness of this crime, to reduce the stigma associated with reporting, and to work with the digital industry to find new ways to combat sexual exploitation of children online. And at the same time, it's important to acknowledge the complexities and jurisdictional challenges involved in what is often a borderless crime. perpetrators and victims can be located anywhere in the world, and images of child sexual abuse and exploitation can be shared on platforms that may be headquartered in one country, but legally registered in another with servers and yet a third and different country. This affects the authority and challenges the ability of Canadian law enforcement agencies to investigate and the application of Canadian laws. But Mr. Chair, I am confident law enforcement continues to do the work to do everything possible to investigate these horrendous crimes and prosecute those responsible international cooperation is key in this regard. And I want to assure you that the RCMP and the Department of Justice work very closely with international partners on investigations and prosecutions. We also work closely with our international allies and partners to find solutions to better protect children and youth. Last year, for example, Canada and its Five Eyes partners launched voluntary principles to counter online child sex, sexual exploitation, and abuse. And these principles are a guide for industry on how to counter this scourge on their platforms. We recognize that also there is much more work to do. And that's why we will introduce legislation to create a new regulator that will ensure that online platforms remove harmful content, including depictions of childhood sexual exploitation, and intermittent images that are shared without consent. Public Safety Canada and other departments are working on this proposed legislation with Canadian Heritage which leads this effort, we will continue to do everything we can to protect Canadian children and to support Canadian survivors of this terrible crime. And we will continue to work with domestic and international partners to investigate cases where evidence exists and to bring the perpetrators to justice. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. We'll turn to miss Minister David lametti. Minister,
messy Mr. President, just three sitting over.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman with me is the Assistant Deputy Minister Mr. fossa degla Thank you for the invitation. Today, I'd like to make a few general statements on certain issues raised. during previous meetings of the committee, the government is determined to ensure the safety of our children also online as Minister Blair has just said, of making distributing, transmitting, making available accessing selling advertising, exploiting and possessing child pornography, which the Criminal Code broadly defines as material involving the depiction of sexual exploitation of persons under the age of 18 years. The Criminal Code also prohibits learning that is communicating with a young person using a computer including online for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offense against that young person. It prohibits agreeing to or making arrangements with another person to commit a sexual offense against a child and it prohibits sexually providing sexually explicit material to a young person for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offense against that young person. Further, the Criminal Code also prohibits voyeurism and the non consensual distribution of intimate images, which are both particularly germane to the online world and the discussion we're having today. offenses of a general application may also apply to criminal conduct that takes place online or that is facilitated by the use of the Internet. For example, criminal harassment and human trafficking offenses may apply depending upon the facts of the case. courts are also authorized to order the removal of child sexual exploitation material and other criminal contents such as intimate images, voyeuristic material or hate propaganda, where it is being made available to the public from a server in Canada. Um, just a quick Kimmy now. On top of the Criminal Code, as Ministry of Justice. I'm also responsible for the binding statement on child porn online by people providing online services. Law practitioners call it the law on mandatory reporting act. Under the act on the mandatory reporting act, Internet service providers in Canada have two main obligations first to communicate with the Canadian center For the protection of children when they receive a complaint on child porn by a subscriber, this non Government Center runs cyber. The sound chopped out at that point. The second obligation is on the part of internet services providers is to let jurisdictional authorities know if a child porn crime has been committed. It is my understanding that there has been some concern as to how they are being interpreted and implemented, especially in relation to the troubling media reports about mind geek and its Pornhub site. as Minister of Justice, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on ongoing or potential investigations or prosecutions. But I would also note that the responsibility for the administration of criminal justice including the investigation and prosecution of such of such crimes, including the sexual exploitation offenses largely falls to my provincial colleagues and counterparts. However, as the Prime Minister stated during question period on February 3, cracking down on illegal online content is something we are taking very, very seriously whether it is hate speech, terrorism, child exploitation or other illegal acts. In fact, the government takes these measures so seriously that the Prime Minister has given foreign ministers the mandate to address different aspects of online harms. Minister Blair and I are two of those ministers and as he has mentioned, the Minister of Public public health of heritage is is one of the lead as well. While the Internet has provided many benefits to Canada and the world, it has also provided criminals with a medium that extends their reach, and thus their victim base and a medium that elevates the level of complexity of investigations. One complicating factor is that telecommunications networks and services transcend international borders while the enforcement authority of police, such as the RCMP is generally limited to their domestic jurisdiction. Further under international law, court orders are generally enforceable only within the jurisdiction of a state and with limited exceptions, their enforcement requires the consent of the other state in which they are sought to be enforced. Canada clearly is not the only one dealing with these issues. And that's why we continue to work in collaboration with our international partners to facilitate international cooperation in investigations and prosecutions with regard to these crimes, including strengthening bilateral collaborate, collaboration and signing of agreements to fight these matters, even though legal cooperation agreements are universally accepted. When it comes to receiving international aid in a criminal investigation, even in emergencies, situations, they were not designed for the internet age, where images are transferred quickly. And where it's very important to collect information as quickly as possible to prosecute perpetrators and Canada is working actively with its international partners to make these issues go forward. We are working on an additional protocol on cyber criminality working with the Council of Europe to increase international cooperation with regard to transport or access to information. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Commissioner lucky, I'm not sure if you had an opening statement. Did you have things like to make? Thank you so much for being here? point of order point of order recognizing point of order, Mr. Angus?
Yeah, no offense to Commissioner lucky but she's staying for the second hour, our two ministers will be leaving, which is going to really interrupt our ability to ask questions, I'd prefer to ask them questions and have her make her statement in the second hour unless they're willing to do
yeah, sorry. She didn't indicate by head movement that she did not have an opening statement. So we'll proceed to questions by members. Thank you, Mr. Angus. Miss dubs, we'll start with you. Thanks, colleagues.
Thank you, Chair. Thanks ministers for being here. Minister Blair 70 MPs across parties have written to you of course about the cases of child exploitation Child Sexual Assault material, instances of human trafficking and rape on mine geek sites. That early in November and again in December, you said, You assured us of the robust framework and prohibitions in the Criminal Code which certainly minister has just outlined in depth as well. December and you sort of alluded to this, you said you reached out to the RCMP to offer support in response to these important revelations about mine geek and Pornhub and other sites. Can you just tell committee members exactly specifically, what that looked like? What support you offered?
Thank you very much Miss Stubbs and, and and yes, I did, in fact have a conversation with the RCMP and asked what they needed in order to respond appropriately to the concerns raised by our colleagues with respect to child exploitation and human trafficking. as a direct result of those conversations, we brought forward actually in in sub c, and in the mains estimates that were recently voted on additional funding for the RCMP and in response to their concerns, are the responsibility for conducting these investigations is a shared one between the RCMP and the police of jurisdiction. And and so we asked what do they need in order to do that we will also provided funding available to police services, they have their own child exploitation units. And and and so I did have a quick conversation with the the the commissioner with respect to what the RCMP needed to respond appropriately to these to these concerns. And as well, we included that funding in the in the, the domain and supplementary estimates we brought forward.
So I'm not I'm not, of course, gonna ask you to comment on it. Any kind of details about any specifics because you can't, and I appreciate that. But can you just tell members, so have you confirmed just simply that there are investigations ongoing?
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much ms Stubbs. And you quite rightfully identify that the Minister of Public Safety cannot direct an investigation of any kind. And and although I can be briefed on on certain aspects of the investigation, it's entirely the responsibility of the RCMP to maintain
Right, so is there one going on? Have you confirmed that there is one going on?
And what I can tell you it's the responsibility of the RCMP to either confirm or not the existence of an investigation. And frankly, I would be very concerned about compromizing their effectiveness by revealing information,
Sure but a yes or no, of course, doesn't compromise anything. It would just confirm for Canadians that elected officials and law enforcement has taken action on this very heinous crime, as you've outlined. So, in your opening comments, you you mentioned funding in the 2018 and 2019 budgets as well as been anticipated now legislation for a regulator, I guess what what I'm that by your own words, and then also in, in the words of a variety of experts, for example, the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, who told this committee that they'd released a report this as a comprehensive legal analysis, showing under long standing Canadian common law, that these platforms are already liable for the user generated content, they promote that these platforms are already liable for circulating illegal user generated content, that context that there and that the definition of child pornography in the Criminal Code is among the world's broadest that was said by a representative Department of Justice, that it's not only images that we protect against or criminalize the distribution of, but it's also audio pornography, and also two forms of written pornography. That representative said, quote, it often is the problem of the application of the law and how that works when the rubber hits the road. So I guess on behalf of all Canadians, and most importantly, on behalf of victims, who are heinously exploited, and continued to be victimized in Canada right now, and as a call for justice, for accountability and for consequences on behalf of those of all of those innocent Canadians. What is it exactly that you are going to do as Minister responsible for public safety to ensure that Canada's laws are actually enforced?
Yeah, thank you very much. It's it's an important question. And the I agree with you that the legal framework that currently exists in Canada dealing with child exploitation is is is a robust one. We also know that the RCMP and and municipal and Provincial Police Services have a very significant job and sometimes challenging job in gathering the evidence they need. And that's why we went to them and asked what resources they need in order to conduct those investigations. We have, as a government ensure that we provided those resources we've also asked law enforcement and the RCMP, what any, what additional support and tools that they may need. And we've always been very responsive to that. As I also mentioned that there are a number of other initiatives on the way I think the Attorney General could perhaps provide more insight and with respect to mandatory reporting from finger there's a number of important initiatives.
But I think here's the concern that that Canadians would have if if it is the case, as you've said, and experts have said that a strong legal framework already exists. How is it that you know, you outlining budget commitments from 2018 and 2019, and also planning for yet another law will actually help you actually ensure that justice is done for those victims, and these crimes are cracked down on and the perpetrators are held to account?
Yeah. And that's really important in these investigations to make sure that law enforcement has the tools and the resources they need to do their job. And we have ensured that, and in fact, we've provided $15 million, for example, when I was the police chief in Toronto, Miss dubs, I actually ran a child exploitation unit, we did an enormously important work there in identifying the perpetrators and even rescuing children from from these horrendous situations. But it was important that it be adequately resourced and funded. And so we've taken steps as a government to ensure that those municipal provincial and the RCMP, those police services have the resources they need to do their job with with the actual conduct of their investigations. I would quite appropriately leave it to them to comment, but but if the government recognizes that we have a responsibility to make sure not only that they're that we have a strong legislative tools available to law enforcement, but that they have the capacity and resources to address this most heinous of crime. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Minister. I'll stop you there. I know that our time runs short here. But we're turned to Mr. Sobrera. Now for the next round of questions. Mr. severo.
Thank you, Chairman. And good morning, everyone, Happy Monday. This, this study that the ethics committee has been undertaking we've been at this for a number of weeks and heard some quite shocking testimony, testimony that I could probably say, frankly, that for the majority of us turned our stomachs in a very bad manner. There's a couple days where we were I know, I went home thinking about the testimony that I had heard about child exploitation, something that we want no child to go to be put through, whether it is here in Canada or globally. So I wish to thank all my colleagues for for their work on this and thank the ministers here. First off to minister Blair and industrial media, and you can both hear like to hear an answer. With regards to the work being done by Minister geebo of Canadian Heritage in terms of a new regulator to address online hate sharing of non consumption, consensual images, child pornography, and incitement to violence and terrorism. Currently, within our prime Center, which is largely responsible for all incoming outgoing online based child sexual exploitation, reported offenses with Canada, how is this new regulator going to work with the existing NC ECC, and if you can keep your answers succinct, that would be great. So I do have follow up questions.
I'm, I'm happy to begin here. Thank you, Mr. sauerberg for your question. And I certainly agree with all the sentiments that you that you have raised in your opening remark. And and certainly with what minister Blair has said, We my role in all this as Minister of Justice is to ensure that Canada's criminal laws and other laws cover the domestic situation. And we work with a number of different ministers and ministries and international partners to make sure that things work as a matter of international cooperation, as well to make sure that there aren't any legislative gaps in terms of Criminal Code protections or other without without revealing the contents of what of what might be in a draft bill, because I can't do that, you know that. And you all know that the kinds of things that have been suggested is how to how to make Internet Service Providers more responsible in terms of mandatory reporting. So are there are are there ways in which the mandatory reporting act could be made more robust? Are there ways in which information could be protected in a more robust manner, for example, to help law enforcement agencies and prosecutions to build and maintain evidentiary cases? So all of those, all of those things are the kinds of things that that would would fall under that category. Obviously, I won't go into any kind. Those kinds of things have been raised in the public domain. So I won't go I won't go into any details about what might be in a proposed proposed a bill.
Mr. Blair, any follow up please?
Yeah, thank you very much, Mr. cervera. Again, I will be somewhat cautious in talking About legislation that may or may be coming forward, but from a public safety perspective, and what we've heard very clearly from law enforcement is essentially three principles that that there would be a mandatory reporting of online harms, which can include the sexual exploitation of children, that that that there would be steps taken to preserve evidence that that would then be used by law enforcement in the conduct investigation and ultimately by prosecutors in a criminal prosecution that might arise from those online harms. And, and to end the victimization that its presence on online represents. And so from a law enforcement perspective, that's what we've heard very clearly from the police right across the country, that they would that they would like to see in legislation.
Thank you. And I do wish to note I just do is to say that I wish to thank obviously yourselves as ministers and the Treasury Board Secretariat under administer ducleau in the 2021 main estimates, there was a substantial increase in funding 6.3 million for the national strategy to combat human trafficking. 4.4 million for the National Cybersecurity strategy, and 4.2 million for protecting children from a sexual exploitation online budget 2009, I would say announced funding of 4.4 million in 20 1920, and 8.7 million in 2021. So it's great to see that I do wish to pivot in a certain way. I've learned a lot in this study about platforms about a lot of illegal ease, language and information. I do agree we do have a robust system in place I think, is section 162. And in that realm, and those numbers for child exploitation, but I do wish to, to to flag something because I think it's important this morning, and I do, I was able to read some papers and we've received a lot of literature, a lot of briefs have been sent to us and more so than in almost any other study. I've seen. One from the Center for general gender and sexual health equality, impacts of criminalization, punitive regulation of online sex work and pornography, the need for sex workers voices. Another one, an article that was written by a gentleman by the name of Justin laying out in Maclean's governments have failed can eat Canada, sex workers, and the writing of patients. And it all goes back to Bill C 336. That was brought in by the conservatives. And we are our role, and also the Bedford case for which I've been reading up on our role as legislators to protect all Canadians protect children from being exploited, and to allow Canadians to work safely in any sort of environment. And I've looked at other countries, maybe New Zealand and Germany. And it seems to me that we need to make sure we don't drive work underground, and that sex workers voices need to be listened to, and that we are not harming Canadians rather than helping Canadians. So I wish to wish to do put it out to an abroad type of question Minister lametti in terms of how sex work is regulated and carried, I do apologize and it's just a bear that the clock indicates that Your time is up and so often to Madame gaudreau. Now, Madame Goudreau,
Hello, and thank you so much for being here, I am going to come at this from a different angle. Thank you for your answers. They've been fairly clear. And it's quite encouraging actually, because as a mother, and as the representative of my constituents, I can say that people are really upset. Because given everything going on, the sound is cutting in and out. So it's very important that we pass the right kind of legislation and to actually enforce it. So my question is, how is it that with all the legislation we have at our disposal, given the increasing amounts of money we're investing to follow and help victims and to make sure they are not re victimized? How is it that when we have a law which is being reviewed such as paid PETA, how is it that some provinces How is it that these provinces have moved even more quickly than the federal government to protect personal information? personal information includes personal dignity and includes anything related to all of us. Some provinces like Alberta and Quebec have provided support And given that at the federal level, it takes a long time to change legislation. How is it that in the digital age, when things move so quickly, why can't we change our Broadcasting Act? Very quickly? Why are we not trying to amend the personal information protection and electronic documents act to make sure that all of our work, including international collaboration are effective? So Mr. Chairman, I'd like to hear the ministers answer that question. Thank you very much for your question. misko the whole. Now, obviously, there are many aspects to this issue. There are many ministers involved many departments and a lot of legislation that comes together around this issue. And at the federal level, we have the Personal Information Protection Act, which covers areas of federal jurisdiction, and I'm responsible for that. We also have the innovation minister who is responsible for parts of pipe EDA, and as you know, there is a bill before the house right now to modernize it existing legislation. In fact, I myself have asked for opinions on the Personal Information Protection Act, so it is challenges, we are working with provinces, because they also have a say in this matter. Now, we know that technologies change so quickly, and technology knows no borders. So we are working with other countries. However, yes, we do have to continually update and modernize our legislation. And this is challenging, especially when it comes to enforcement. As you have described, yes, I do understand that you are responsible for part of this legislation, Mr. lametti. But when it comes to updating and modernizing legislation to help these victims, when I when I talk to these young people, they say governments come and go, the reset button is constantly pushed. So at the end of the day, we are forgotten, there is help out there. But the help seems to disappear once in a while, because legislation, which should be enforced, is not keeping up with the reality on the ground. Because if the law kept up with changing technologies, we could help victims better victims are already at the end of their rope. So there are gaps where which we have to fill, we have to move more quickly. We have to move as quickly as the internet does.
thank you very much. Certainly, yes, we are reacting as Minister Blair said we're investing in these things. We are improving the enforcement of legislation, and we are working with other countries with other police forces around the world. So we are doing something and I honestly believe that there's not a single government in Canadian history, which has acted as quickly as we are. So we're working on this. But yes, it does take time, it does take investment. But we're doing that now. And we're continuing to modernize. It's an ongoing challenge. We're up to the tasks and we are doing it.
My last question, is this. Is it possible to receive a commitment to help these victims? Is there any way we can show them exactly what the steps are to follow in the process to prove to them that not only do we care about them, but that we are modernizing legislation to help them because a victim is being created every second, and it's really hard for them to believe that we are there for them. Can you give us a commitment to transparency? And can you tell these young people what the steps are In the process to help them
Yes, of course we can always communicate better what we are doing, and we have to do that. But as you said, we have to be there for the victims and we have to be explained to them better exactly what we're doing to help them.
Minister, thank you. Thank you, Madame Goudreau. We'll turn now to Mr. Angus. Mr. Angus for six minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Blair. Thank you, Madame lucky for coming. Thank you, Minister. lametti. Ferris and tune the CEO of mine geek lives in Montreal. In fact, he's building his dream home there apparently quite the mansion in a neighborhood called mafia Ville. Now, I've been in Montreal a lot, but I don't know where Mafia Ville is. But I mentioned it because he lives in Montreal, as does his partner, David De cielo. They have 1000 employees in Montreal, and their offices at 777. Boulevard de Kerry. So Mr. lametti? In your opinion, would this qualify mine geek as a Canadian company subject to Canadian law?
Okay, and I'm not going to comment on the actual details. It It has been there have been differing opinions. As as Minister Blair and I have pointed out, it can depend on where servers are located at
Okay, sorry, I'm getting servers. I'm reading the mandatory reporting act and doesn't mention the word servers. It mentions the word service. So I could I can help your your you. If you look up Wikipedia, the first line in Wikipedia. Mr. lametti? Is it mine geek is a private Canadian company. So you don't know that it's a private Canadian company. You don't know.
Mr. Angus, I as I have said, we have and I my role in all of this is to ensure that there is adequate Criminal Code protections and that they are in place. I have outlined in my opening remarks. Mr. Angus, as you as I know, you were listening carefully, that there are challenges with respect to companies that that
I get that. I'm referring to see,
we refer to all of these, there are legal opinions that have been given but
Okay, I understand that. A few minutes. Mr. Lowe? Maddy, I'm referring to this briefing note to the commissioner from December 20, December 10 2020. To the RCMP Commissioner. Now it was it was done in response to the New York Times article. And it says to the RCMP that in 2018, the RCMP met mine geek and raised the mandatory record Reporting Act, the NRA, and the company indicated that the NRA did not apply is that you are not a Canadian company. So when you guys go to talk to companies that you think may have broken Canadian law, but they have other jurisdictions and they just tell you, well, we're not a Canadian company. Is that good enough?
Well, look, I'm not going to answer on the specifics of of whatever.
But you are aware of it. Right. You have read the mandatory reporting act.
I am very aware of the mandatory reporting act and there and a company a country, sorry, a company may also be required to report in another country such as the United States, which then may be required to report back to Canadian law enforcement authorities.
I know, that's interesting, because it doesn't say that under those are
questions on application.
Mr. lametti, it says under the mandatory reporting act, that if a if an allegation of child pornography is made, the service service provider has to make available to appropriate Canadian law enforcement agency, but you're saying they could interpret that to maybe apply to someone else because they've never made a single mentioned, they've never reported anything to Canadian authorities. I mentioned that because really well, and I finish my last
If you'll allow me to answer your question, Mr. Angus,
I was getting my question you, sorry. Well, I want
to answer the order. statement. Mr. Mr. Angus, would you finish your question? I'm
getting my question. Mr. lametti. Sorry to interrupt. I don't want to be rude. Rose Columba gave us horrific testimony by writing. She was 14 when she was kidnapped, tortured and raped. And the multiple videos of her torture was posted on Pornhub. She begged them to take it down. They wouldn't take it down until over 2 million people had witnessed it. She is a Canadian citizen. These tags were posted by a company that's centered in Montreal. So giving your reading of the mandatory reporting Act would it \may have saved Rose colomba and other victims that we've talked to, if there had been a single instance, where Pornhub or Mind Geek had actually reported the mandatory reporting act as we have in Canadian law to Canadian authorities.
Mr. Angus, I, I will say, as I have said that the coverage of both the Criminal Code and the mandatory reporting act covers Canadian domestic situations, other international other international agreements help with respect to the the gathering of that evidence. I won't comment on any past or ongoing or future cases of investigation that that is not in my
eye told me I
was a potential.
I I'm interested, though, because we talk about the mandatory reporting act, and you're telling us we're gonna get this new regulator that's going to come in, it's going to be mandatory as well. But this RCMP briefing note says that the RCMP strives to maintain partnerships with private companies Pornhub mind geek, as these are effective and support the company's voluntary compliance and adherence to its own terms of use. So I I've read the the laws on child pornography on the mandatory reporting. I'm just really surprised at the RCMP and you seem to have this position that you would prefer voluntary compliance with the law when we haven't had a single case like a single case of them actually reporting anything. So how does this voluntary compliance work with our partners with mine geek if they never report anything?
Mr. Angus, your time is up, but we'll turn to the Minister Frankie's wants.
Well, I think I think you should address that question, perhaps to the the RCMP, I have expressed no position, Mr. Angus, for the record, although you seem to
have a trickle so you don't have a position that they should or not rebounding as the Attorney General, you don't have a position. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Angus. Thank
you. Thank you, gentlemen. We'll turn to Mr. viersen. Mr. viersen, for five minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, ministers, many back in November, I in a number of parliamentarians wrote you regarding documented cases of child exploitation, sex trafficking, and rape published on mine geek site. This is monetized and viewed by millions. And we asked you if the current laws were adequate to prevent on what was preventing the lack of enforcement and you wrote back, I assure you that the Criminal Code contains robust framework that prohibits a broad range of the conduct you reference. So here we are six months later, multiple victims have come forward, hundreds, if not 1000s, of examples, and still no charges late. Are you still confident of a robust framework?
Thank you for your question. Mr. viersen. I'm very confident of that robust framework. We have we have domestic coverage, which is more exhaustive think, than any other country in the world. This this is a complex international situation and questions about both the application of the law should be addressed should be addressed to the RCMP, for example, as an investigating body. Perhaps minister Blair would have something to add. But certainly the the the the normative coverage of our laws in Canada are second to none in the world.
Well, mission,
no missile many director, as the director of the Public Prosecutions act, that Public Prosecutions Act allows the Attorney General to issue prosecutorial directives. Have you issued any prosecutor directives in this regard?
Our Prosecution Service Mr. viersen, as you know, is, is done at arm's length, the times at which I can intervene, are are structured under the Act and and very rare. I am working, obviously, with my counterparts, but I can assure you that law enforcement is, is first of all working on investigations and an independent matter. And then to the extent that there there, there is enough evidence gathered to to proceed with prosecutions will be part of an independent prosecutorial decision. And I, I am confident that those agencies are all doing their work as they're supposed to
But Mr. lametti, this has been going on for years, we're discussing egregious offenses towards women and children sex trafficking, child abuse, rape, all published online for years and years. And yet no charges no investigations, don't you think maybe now is the time for prosecutorial directive.
Again, my role in this Mr. viersen, as you know, is to ensure that the Criminal Code mandatory reporting act and other statutes
so you have notified
original at all, I am confident that all aspects of of Canadian law enforcement prosecution, as well as the Justice Department and and public secure departments of public safety departments are working, are working hand in hand in order to make sure that this goes well. What I can't do as an elected official is comment on an investigation what I can't do as the Minister of Justice.
We're not talking about a particular investigation, we're saying give a prosecutorial directive.
is real prosecutorial and important, it was established under under the Conservative government, previous Conservative government. And I firmly believe that that was a very good move by by conservative justice ministers at the time.
The interestingly, minute Pornhub have over 1000 employees in this country. They operate in this country, whether regardless of where they are, do you not? Do you believe that regardless of where a company is headquartered, they ought to obey Canadian law.
Again, my role in this is to make sure the laws are adequate, whether whether Canadian laws are being followed or whether Canadian laws apply are going to be part of the investigative and prosecutorial functions.
But for over nine years, they failed to comply. We've clear evidence of of child's sexual exploitation happening on their website and yet no reporting. Do you think that that isn't following the law?
Look, these are horrific crimes. We know that. We have confidence in our police services. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, most of it falls at the provincial level. But to the extent the RCMP is involved, confidence in the RCMP, confidence in the systems that we have put in place to report these crimes and confident in the in not only the investigative independence of the RCMP, but also the prosecutorial independence of the prosecution services, not just at the federal level, but at the provincial level and territorial level across Canada.
Thank you, Mr. viersen. We're gonna turn to Miss lattanzio. Now, Miss lattanzio for five minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, everyone, for being present this morning. And both ministers and Miss lucky. Thank you for partaking and helping this committee move along. and and, and and undertake this, this very important study. So my first question will be to Mr. Blair. Mr. Blair, just last month, the public safety Canada launched a national awareness campaign targeting children, parents and caregivers, in order to raise awareness of the online child sexual exploitation and abuse, more specifically, raising awareness of this heinous crime, how to report it, and how to reduce the stigma associated with the reporting. What are the awareness and stigma practice reduction practices? so important?
Thank you very much, Mr. Madam Chair, I think it's a very important question. We understand that, that public education for children and for their parents and awareness of the issue of child sexual exploitation on the internet is absolutely critical and giving families and young people the tools that they need, we also are working hard to remove the stigma because we know many people have been deeply traumatized by this most heinous of crimes. And we want to empower people to be able to come forward and take actions to protect themselves. And at the same time, we also recognize the importance of strong support for criminal investigations. And, you know, I want to sort of acknowledge that the RCMP runs the non national child exploitation crimes center, but we work very closely with the Canadian Centre for child protection that undertakes on our behalf and with our funding, support for victim identification and victim support strategies to provide assistance to survivors and tailored resources for victims and their families. Because we know that victimization in this most terrible way, by this online sexual exploitation of children can have lifelong consequences. And so it's, it's critically important that we raise public awareness of the issue. So that that we know that even during the pandemic, a lot of lot of kids are spending a lot more time online. And we want to make sure that they can do it safely. And that can be done through public education and working with their families. And at the same time, we also recognize that predators are out there, and we need to make sure that we have the tools and the resources necessary to apprehend, deter and prosecute those individuals.
Okay, thank you. My question. I'll turn that over to Mr. lametti. Mr. lametti, I would like to give you the opportunity to to tell the committee more specifically what is the mandatory reporting act? I know that my colleague before as asked you questions, various questions on it, but maybe if you can provide this committee, with with with with broad lines as to what exactly this act is and how it can help combat child pornography in Canada.
Thank you very much. Mr. Tanzi for the question. And indeed, it's opportune to answer given that it does play an important role in all this. The NRA is a federal criminal statute that places obligations on on those who provide Internet service to the public. For example, access providers, content providers hosts and requires them to report to the C three PP, the C three p, the Canadian center for Child Protection, which isn't, which runs the anonymous tip line cyber tip.ca if they're advised of an internet address, where there there is child pornography that may be available to the public, or they're required to report to law enforcement if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the internet service is being used to commit a child pornography offense and that that that is critically important. It also requires them to maintain the fleeting data for a period of 21 days. Unfortunately, chance to access that. So those are important measures in in trying to combat a phenomena which is happening quickly online. So it it tries to give that mandatory reporting obligation. Some law enforcement authorities through the mandatory reporting obligation, some ability to act quickly. So it is it's a critical part of the of the the criminal structure in in fighting this kind of crime. And we all believe that heinous and needs to be eradicated.
All right. Thank you. I'm going to be going back to minister Blair. Minister, I'm hoping that you can speak a bit more today about human trafficking. I believe that our government's national strategy focuses also on the empowerment as a pillar in itself. And can you act and that you actually have an advisory committee and a chief advisor. Can you please elaborate for us today on the importance of having representatives working with the government dedicated to fighting the scourge?
Yesterday, the members time is up, but we'll give you an opportunity for a short answer.
I'll do my best to answer short Mr. Chair. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chair, especially advisor to combat human trafficking has been named and the purpose is to provide expert advice to the government on on our collective efforts to combat human trafficking, to raise awareness about this this terrible crime. And it builds on some previous investments and it's part of a national strategy to combat human trafficking that the government launched in 2019.
Thank you, we're going to turn to Madame Goudreau for two and a half minutes Madame Goudreau
But I'll come back to what I was talking about a little earlier. I was saying that the legislative process is very slow, but we need to act quickly. Apart from the way legends laws are passed in this country, it's clear that we cannot move quickly enough to help the victims and victims are created every second. So given how fragile the legislative process is, which means that it can take years before a bill becomes law. Don't you think that given everything going on these days, and given the severity of the crimes we're discussing here, is there any way we can increase the accountability for companies or people who could help counter these crimes, it's all very good to invest more money to create more regulators. But we already have institutions in place. So I'd like to hear you about the speed with which things happen in this country. We have victims on the ground. But lawmakers like us we're stuck in the system, which doesn't move fast enough for the victims. So I'd like to hear you on that.
Thank you very much, Madam Godo. For your question. Yes, we are doing what we can by investing money because this is the power of the federal government has now asked for legislation. Sure, we're always open to improving the legislative process and be it in the criminal system or elsewhere. As I just said, The In criminal code and other laws on the books are robust. Is there room for improvement? While we're open to any suggestions, and I know that some MPs have private bills. And some of those bills are in the House of Commons now. And I know that your own leader has presented legislation on medical assistance and dying. And often we all have to work together. Sometimes some political parties engage in filibusters, so we need to all work together and we on our side are willing to work with the other parties,
too. We'll go to Mr. Angus now, Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you, Mr. lametti, for coming today. So I'm going to move beyond our attempts to get answers on the mandatory reporting laws that we have in place. This story blew up and I think shocked us all when surina flyease, who was a child porn survivor came forward to the new york times. She begged Pornhub mine geek to take her videos down. There were multiple tags, she said, when we asked Pornhub mine geek about this, they had no record. They didn't they don't have any records of her. But we had a number of other children, survivors come forward. So we have had zero investigations, zero reporting of any of these allegations that have come forward of mind geek, which I know where you're not sure if it's a Canadian company, but it is in Montreal, but under Section 163 dash three of the Criminal Code. Any person who transmits makes available, advertisers, any child pornography is guilty of an indictable offense. That's up to 14 years. So I'm thinking, the tags, the promotions, the selling the online stuff. Do we not already have laws in Canada that are sufficient? We just don't seem to have the political will to actually apply the law. Why would we need to change anything when the law is pretty clear about transmitting, distributing and advertising of this kind of child rape?
Mr. Angus, allow me to if I may
ask the question to Mr. lametti.
To jump in, I'm glad I'm glad, Mr. Angus, that you you have understood that, in fact, Canadian criminal law and the mandatory reporting Act provides one of the strongest and most exhaustive frameworks in the world for this kind. Exactly. Why have you ever
had any reporting in Canada? I saw many How come there's a report out?
Well, if you I know you were I know you were listening to the opening remarks very carefully. And as I'd said, they're the principal of domestic territoriality applies, which is the Criminal Code applies in Canada. And in the internet context, there, there are a variety of different standards. That might mean that a company is actually operating in another country. So we work with other countries, but you haven't had any information.
or limited? Come on. Again, I
can't comment on investing. So but
wouldn't you say that these are prima facia cases that you do have the authority? You just haven't done it?
I I do not have as I said, the Criminal Code is more than adequate as it lies to Canadians. It's it's actually a very good criminal code. And I'm very proud of it. The application investigations and prosecutions are independent functions. And their application in an international context is not always as clear as you would have it be even if that's what we would both like would you say that it was
in Canada Did you could set up shop in Canada and be not have to worry that you're going to have to be forced to report because there's been no reports.
That's that that time is administering.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Minister. We're going to turn now to Mr. Kerry and he'll be splitting his time with Mr. Gord I believe Mr. Kerry,
thank you very much, Mr. Chair and ministers have through this study. We've been talking about the privacy and reputations of those who've had their sexual private images uploaded to adult web sites without their consent. We've heard from many of these victims when many of them are children, and they're also victims of sexual violence, human trafficking. With that, Minister Blair, you called these heinous crimes, heinous acts. Do you believe perpetrators of human trafficking deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law? Yes or no? Yes, sir. Thank you, Minister. lametti Do you believe her For traders of human trafficking deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, yes or no? Absolutely. Thank you. Mr. lametti. Could you please let Canadians know what is the maximum sentence for those convicted of the indictable offense of human trafficking? And what would be the maximum prison sentence for those convicted of a summary offense? Just the numbers, please.
Sorry, I don't have those provisions in front of me, I will get back to you with those answers.
Thank you very much, Mr. Blair, the cabinet colleague that is testifying with you today sponsor Bill C 75. In 2019, which made human trafficking a hybrid offense, thus making modern day slave traders able to be convicted and serve less than two years prison time, or even just pay a fine of no more than $5,000. Now, Mr. Angus was talking about how robust Canadian system is your government actually changed it into a hybrid offense? where somebody could get off with the same penalty is basically, you know, causing a public disturbance. Are you aware of those changes in Bill C 75.
Thank you, Mr. Carey. And I am aware of the other changes, but I'm also aware that we did not reduce the maximum penalty for the worst offender committing the worst offenses for for human trafficking. And so the penalties that were previously available in those most heinous of circumstances, allows for the courts based on the evidence and the law, to make the determination of the appropriate sentence for the circumstances before them.
But when you had the chance to actually change the law, instead of getting tougher, and working, like Mr. Angus was saying, to actually apply the law that we had in this robust framework that you claim to have, actually, a less a weaker offense. And it's just how can these victims actually trust your government to be on this and doing the best in in for Canadians? When you had the opportunity, you actually weaken the law instead of strengthened the law? And with that, I Mr. Gord that's my time. But very disappointing. That's for sure. Mr. Gord.
Mr. Gord
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is for the Justice Minister, were all extremely upset about this issue, which is online childhood porn, and we need to strengthen our legislation to better protect victims. However, I have a suggestion for the minister. If we can strengthen the legislative framework, could we not first get an opinion from the supreme court? Because we know that the companies involved have huge resources, they've got a ton of money. And they can hire the best lawyers to fight any laws we want to pass. But if we got an opinion from the Supreme Court, this could help limit companies fighting back and it might help protect victims faster. What does the minister think of this suggestion?
Thank you, Mr. Gould for your question. So as I explained several times, Canada's laws are fairly exhaustive and clear. The challenges the international context. So it's a matter of strengthening the enforcement of the law and to conduct investigations, which are often international in scope. So we're talking collaboration with other countries and other police forces throughout the world. So again, we have the laws. Our laws are clear.
are we dealing with the Canadian company or not? Well, often it's hard to answer that question. And it's not necessarily the case that a Canadian tribunal has would have the answers, because we've seen, for instance, that a decision from the supreme court or any other Canadian court was not enforced in the US in the case of acoustic for instance. So just having an opinion from the courts is not necessarily the solution. I have a question. Another question for the jury. This minister
will turn to Mr. Fergus for the last questions for the second round. Mr. Fergus for five minutes. Mr. Fergus, you are still on mute. Zoom. Excuse me, sir. Please.
Apologies, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for reminding me of that. I'd also like to thank our two witnesses for testifying before the committee. As you've seen, it's a very complex difficult matter, which touches every single MP who has been at these meetings. I just want to raise a few points before I put my questions to both ministers. First, as you've seen, Mr. lametti? Well, you've said that we have strong legislation robust laws. However, we need to strengthen some other elements, given the fact that this is an international problem. We're talking about cyber crimes here. Because mine, geek and Pornhub have done things which are criminal in nature. And they've done so through their servers. Despite the fact that there is a willingness, which is nonpartisan. Well, the Official Opposition voted against increasing investment in the RCMP to help that police force fight. child porn, online child porn that is. That being said, I know that the all MPs around this table are here in good faith, and they all want to act. Mr. Blair, my question is this, what do you need in terms of resources, and also in terms of a better legislative framework to help you prosecute those crimes? Taking into account of course, the fact that the internet is international, it is borderless. So what are the types of tools you need? What are the resources, you need to make sure that we can prosecute these people prosecute these crimes, and do justice for the victims of these crimes?
Thank you very much, Mr. Mr. Fergus for what is a very important question. And as you've already indicated, we do supply funding to the RCMP to run the national child exploitation crime Center, which has a number of significant responsibilities, including the investigation of these predators to gather the evidence and to bring them to court and prosecute them. It's also has a purpose of identifying and rescuing victims on the international front. And because of the nature of online harms, generally, and certainly of this most terrible crime, there is a very significant international component. And that's why the five countries ministerial meetings that I have attended for the last three years, the focus in each of those meetings has been on online child sex, an implantation of principles to guide industry efforts to combat online hide islands and child sexual exploitation. In addition, we are part of an initiative called the we protect Global Alliance, which is a movement dedicated to national and global action to end sexual exploitation of children online. And it includes like minded states, NGOs and civil society organizations. And finally, Mr. Fergus, I would I would point out that the RCMP actually chairs a group called the book virtual global taskforce on child exploitation. And this is an international law enforcement alliance that is engaged in intelligence sharing and data sharing and dealing with this issue globally. And I think it is a demonstration of both Canada's commitment and the RCMP global leadership on this critically important issue.
Mr. Fergus, I would simply add that we're working with other countries within certain legal frameworks to help exchange information between police forces and And we're talking about cybercrime multilateral conventions. We also have bilateral agreements with countries like the US to facilitate the exchange of information when we have to do so quickly.
Mr. lametti, Mr. Blair, this committee cares about this issue. And so we would suggest changes that might help you do your work in prosecuting these crimes. So my question to you is, what do you need from the committee? What kind of recommendations do you need from this committee to help you in your work? And to give you the legal framework, you need to do your job.
Your time is up, but we will allow the ministers to respond to the question. ministers
Well, as I just said, we have a strong domestic context. Our Canadian laws are very robust. What we need to work on is improving international cooperation.
Thank you, ministers that takes us. Pardon me, Minister Blair, did you have a response to that as well?
Yeah, Mr. Chair, let me acknowledge the important work of this committee. And we will look forward to their findings and recommendations. I think we all share a common commitment to eliminate the sexual exploitation of children online. And and we look forward to the recommendations of this committee to help inform and support that work.
Thank you ministers, we are now finished the second round of questions of ministers, you had indicated that you were only available for the first hour, we'd love to have you stay if he if you could extend but we respect that you are busy people as well. And so if if you're not able to stay, and we want to thank you for being here this morning, and I appreciate your willingness to be here. colleagues will continue then into the third round of questions. We've got Miss Stubbs to begin the third round of questions. Miss dubs, are you there? Miss dubs, you're still on? You remain on mute. Mr.
Green, you would imagine By this time, this is why people don't have any faith in politicians. So apologize to my colleagues for this. This is you would think a year into this, I would certainly know how to unmute myself. Thanks, chair. So I have some questions for Commissioner Lecky. I have been looking at the website for the variety for the various child sexual exploitation units in the RCMP. And also just note recent reporting by the director of cyber tip, who says in 2020, that has sent spike over April, May and June. From youth who had been sexually exploited and reports of people trying to sexually abused children. I wonder if you can confirm that cases of child sexual exploitation online have increased during the past year. And also, I guess in that context, if you can shed some light on exactly what the support and the resources were that the public safety minister says he offered when he reached out to the RCMP, after after Members of Parliament victims spoke, spoke out on this travesty last year.
Thank you so much for that question of COVID-19. Since COVID-19, especially, it has had a heightened risk to children as offenders. And they taking advantage of the fact that children are spending more time online and often unsupervised. And since the onset of the pandemic, the center has seen increased online activity related to online child litigation, sexual exploitation. So from excuse me from March to May 2020, the center has recorded approximately a 36% increase in reports of suspected online child exploitation attributed in part to the increase in viral media and a tangible increase in self exploitation cases. So we also anticipate more reporting of child exploitation offenses both online and offline. When the panda