Welcome everybody under hollowtech Here I am particularly delighted to introduce to a wonderful scholar practitioner that I can't wait to dive in to the magic of sound how it relates to healing, how it relates to transformation so as usual I will do a very brief formal introduction. And then we're just going to drop jump right in. So Dr. Cole Ricciardo, he is an integrative neurologists neuroscientists and the former director of Wellspring health at Scripps Memorial Hospital. She has participated in over 20 clinical research studies in the areas of multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, and diabetic peripheral neuropathy. She's the head of the Sri nada yami Is that how you pronounce it called Eat
Narayani
holistic center in Tamil Nadu, India, where she is not only implementing the use of sound medicine in the treatment of chronic disease, but also studying the ancient so the texts that have been hidden from public view. For centuries, so thank you so much for taking time I know how busy you are. It's a total delight and honor for me to introduce you to our audience and big thanks from the side.
The feeling is mutual.
There's, there's so much I want to talk to you about, I was really very taken by your book on a number of fronts and and I applaud you for both your courage and your capacity to act as a kind of cultural translator, you know, your, your magnificent conduit or bridge between the ancient wisdom of the so called East, which you know those boundaries are dissolving and the modern knowledge of the West, and you know sound has been a monumental part of my own life I'm actually trained as a classical pianist, but most importantly, you know I'm a student of Tibetan luxury under Buddhism, and as you probably know, a synonym his secret mantra by Gian or sometimes even mantra Yana the vehicle of sacred sound. So there's, because there's so much to cover here. I thought we could perhaps with your permission to focus on some of the extraordinary practical applications of your book because one of the great gifts, is the way you can join theory, I guess you could say it's theory simply because we haven't experienced it yet. With practicalities and their use, you know, you book sound, medicine, what a beautiful double entendre. The power of sound to both heal and transform. So, let's talk a little bit about mantras and how they work, and you as a, as a physician, and also practitioner, how one goes about, for instance prescribing monitors and the like. So there's so much to dive into here but let's, let's take the little first shot across the bow with talking about this ancient art of sound and how we can use it for purposes of both healing and transformation.
I'm so glad you're taking a practical approach because you know I love geeking out on this knowledge. I absolutely love diving into the scientific aspects as well as the traditional knowledge. But if you're just reading it, and not actually implementing it, it does you absolutely no good. It's kind of like reading the menu at a restaurant but having never sampled, any of the food there. So let's first just start with an explanation of what a mantra is, many people ask me what's the difference between a mantra, and an affirmation, because, you know, now, even in Western countries we're using the word mantra very casually and we oftentimes refer to something that's an affirmation as an actual mantra. And the difference is an affirmation is a phrase that has meaning that an individual can repeat in different ways to help overcome a program in the mind, and they certainly can be helpful. A mantra is quite different in that. First of all, it is a sound vibration and not necessarily something that has any meaning. And what that what that means is that the sound itself is the technology, it's not because the sound translates into some kind of a meaning to the mind and the purpose of a mantra is to transcend the mind, meaning it's it's to pierce the mind it's to go beyond the mind. So whereas an affirmation is there to help, to maybe clear a particular pattern of belief, a mantra is to get to super conscious states where you're no longer as limited by the mind as a whole. so it's a little bit like, you know with affirmations if you go out on the grass and you're trying to cut one strand at a time. Whereas a mantra is more of a lawn mower where it just clears out the entire area. And so these, these mantras, even though mantra is a Sanskrit word for these sacred sounds. It's a form of sound healing that is found in every single tradition, as you've experienced in the Buddhist tradition, when I was researching the book what I found was that these traditions of sacred towns were global at one point, and unfortunately there's only certain cultures, now that have retained that knowledge but that does not mean that mantras are unique to them, it just means that they are now unique reservoirs for that knowledge which is why, you know, people who are interested in the study may go to those areas but they are actually present everywhere. And the purpose of a mantra is really that it creates entrainment. Partly, you know, cognitive or brain entrainment. And what that means is that the frequency and the resonant frequency of the mantra has the capacity to change the way in which the brain is actually firing which not only then has an impact on you know the mind but on every cell in the body. So that's kind of like the, the fundamental, the simplest possible explanation, you know of mantras, and many people will ask, like, Well where did these mantras come from the theory behind mantras is that they, they have always existed, they're frequencies in nature, it's kind of like saying, Where do bird songs come from or where does the sound of the ocean come from or where does the sound of the wind come from. These were vibrations that were, that are present on a non audible level, that were then perceived by individuals who, through deep practices in meditation, were able to enter that vibratory code that is underlying kind of the world that we see. And when they were able to interact with that vibratory core code. They were then able to translate what is non audible into an audible signal that can be recited by the human voice or, you know, done internally, but that vibratory code then has a certain frequency that is impacting the entire body. So that's kind of the science and technology of of mantras.
I think it's, it's really fantastic and what I so appreciate about your book, excuse me, is that in Buddhism they talk about, you know the extraordinary power of right view. And, for instance, like when I did my really long retreat we had a number of Lamas command and they would teach us extensively about the views behind these practices and what does it mean to accomplish these practices. And so when I read your remarkable book to read, I was, I was struck I was like oh my gosh I wish my Lamas 25 years ago would have given me your book because that's right for mantra in in Tibetan as you probably know the. It's really the, the term is translated work with as mind, protection of that which protects the mind and I still love the intimation of what you talked about it how it is that it that it actually pierces the mind because in the, in the subtle inner yoga systems you know in tantra Yana Viana, probably a third of Adriaan is devoted to the inner yogas. And this is where of course, sound work sound works with the subtle body and so when you talk about piercing the mind. There's a common, common parlance in the inter yoga is where they talk about penetrating the vital points, which of course in this case would be penetrating the vital points being the chakras, with sounds that are specific to actually opening those chakras, because, you know, one of the definitions my favorite running definition of meditation is in fact habituation to openness. And so in this way you're actually working with subtle body anatomy and physiology as a way to transform not only the body but also the mind. So to further substantiate the Power View. Can you talk because you the other thing was so great about your book was the way you brought in with such elegance, the phenomenology of the subtle body and how sound works on that. So let's, let's turn today like, what are the what's the phenomenology of mantra recitation what's going on with the subtle body that affects this kind of physical and spiritual transformation,
you literally read my mind because the, the thought that was coming up that I just wanted to share was, oh but the subtle body has very profound impacts, you know, on the physical body and on the, on the mental body so you read exactly what was starting to get cultivated, instead of way my mind.
Why do we say what's the point,
you know like, oh that's nice that something is happening subtly, but what people often don't realize is what happens, subtly happens then on the gross level much faster. You know I compare it to like the breaking of different bonds like when you break chemical bonds in gunpowder, you have a certain amount of energy release but then when you break atomic bombs, you have even more energy released and so when you break patterns, or when you open up channels on a subtler level, the energetic consequence of that is much more profound, both mentally and physically. And what we see with, with our patients when we're doing this work and the way that I approach patients as you know we do the dietary changes, we do the exercise changes we'll add the natural supplements to help to, you know, facilitate the physical and mental healing. But when we add the sound practices or any of the practices that, you know, we utilize that are opening up or shifting the subtle body. What we find is that once those energies kind of open up the shift on the physical and mental level is dramatic. So what might have taken years to accomplish happens in a very very short amount of time programs in the mind that many people are not even aware of suddenly start crumbling, and they just suddenly look at something that previously seemed like a impossible problem to solve and then the answer is just immediately there, and that's, you know, also in terms of their personal life, not just like in their professional life. So when these channels in the subtle body open up. It's like solutions come instantaneously and sometimes the body still does need some time to adjust to that. You know sometimes people will go through like a detoxification because all of these emotional pollutants will suddenly come to the surface and then they'll have joint pain or a rash, and I just go don't worry this is now just the physical body clearing that, but then as that clears, it's like having access to a completely new life in that physical realm and in that mental realm that you didn't have before. And you know so much of the discussion now kind of like in the business world is unlocking the your mental potential in one of the things that really blocks them into Plitt potential is our physical health. And so when we unlock these, these subtle channels what we're doing is we're opening up access to the mind and body, that we didn't have because of those blocks before. And you know it's interesting what you what you said though about wishing you had access to this knowledge 20 years ago, I did too. I wish I had access. I started a launcher practice when I was nine years old, and didn't really understand the science behind it and I'll tell you I am so I am so much more committed, not that I was really skipping but I there's just a deeper level of appreciation for what I'm doing, not just for myself, but on a much larger scale, every time that I engage in my monitor practice so it's really enriched my, my life having this intellectual understanding this deeper intellectual understanding of this technology
is a huge force in the West will read because you know we don't have the type of devotion and surrender, we have two wisdom traditions in the West, you know we capitulate to the high priests of the West, which are scientists and so the, the attraction that you bring into this with your juxtaposition of physics and neuroscience is absolutely brilliant and that's why it's so speaks to us in the West and so I just wanted to put an exclamation mark in a couple of things you said. Because this all ties in very deeply to what we do you know in this community we work a lot with Dream Yoga and Dream Yoga in fact about works with the subtle body and so exactly what you're saying here is that this is one reason like people ask well why should I bother with mantra recitation, why should I bother with things like Dream Yoga. Well in the tacos, it says in the Mahamaya Tantra Tibetan Buddhism, it says that the practices you do exactly like you're alluding to, in these subtle dimensions like with my Dream Yoga are seven to nine times more efficacious and transformative, precisely because you're working with these tectonic plates of your very existence and so this is super important for us to understand in the West, that the gross body is epiphenomenal and actually we could eat maybe even say, an epigenetic expression of the subtle body and so by doing that, you're starting to transform the otter and the other thing I wanted to say that was so compelling to me is, you know, my teacher Brenda che once famously said, meditation isn't a sedative, it's a laxative. So, when you're involved with this stuff, this approach to a, to actually a kind of a subtle body physiological approach that we're actually opening things up and guess what happened. Sometimes the crap comes up, yes. So, we have to have the fires this is where perhaps we could maybe for briefly into Kundalini, to kind of burn up what. But let's go further, because you can you're so uniquely situated to talk about even more deeply what's happening at the subtle body because, in fact it is a neurologist, one of the words I play with here is you know the big jingle in neuroscience for the last 2030 years has been this principle of neural plasticity right that what you do mind changes your brain. Well I would conjecture I'm curious to see how this lands with you, that when you're working with sound. At this level, you're working with. This is my neologism you're working with Nadi plasticity, you're actually working with opening and actually transforming the configuration of the nadi chakra structure itself so does that does that resonate, Pardon the pun, with your own knowledge
100% And when we look at like the way that the citizen the Ayurvedic, you know, masters, looked at what human being is, they saw the diagram of the different sheets that encompass that inner consciousness, you know, which has so many different names either the soul, the Divine Spark, God, whatever you want to call it. And they were able in such detail, which to me is it's it's sort of ridiculous the amount of precision, they had in describing a human being, not just on the physical level, which just from their meditations, they were able to draw so precisely the entire human anatomy, but they went deeper into these other realms, and they did the same thing they described the anatomy of those other realms and from their teachings, what we're seeing is that just like the human body has a certain pattern to it, these other subtler bodies also have a certain pattern to it. And there's things that can get stuck, essentially, um, and they're too deep, they're, they're too deep for us to be able to reach through physical practices, even through mental practices because they're stuck at levels that go far beyond the mind. And so the beauty of these technologies and I love that term that you used, you know, whether this is Nadi plasticity is that these techniques. They are aimed at unleashing, what we call the, the seed form of the car most, and people oftentimes misunderstand the word karma, they look at karma is something that happens when you've been bad. And and it's not Karma is a something that happens whenever there's action, and from that action certain vibrations are set into motion. And because we are vibratory beings, and some of those vibrations are so dense that we can see them, which is what the physical body is and some of those vibrations are less dense but we can feel them, like the mental body and anybody who's walked into a room where they, they know everybody has been talking about though, understands what I mean is that there's certain variation you can feel, even though you can't see such as our thoughts and our emotions.
There are even subtler vibrations that make us up, And those vibe, those vibratory realms, the technologies that are as subtle as those realms to actually be able to appears, and those subtle vibratory realms are where the seeds that we have sowed exist. And that's it's just it's really hard work to get to those realms, I mean, you do have to go somewhat sequentially in that there is a physical clearing and I'm sure your own practice in Buddhism has revealed this, that there are layers where it requires first, a physical clearing and then a mental clearing and then the soil is kind of fertile to really start to bring up, you know and and pull out those seeds that have been generating all of the phenomenon that you see in the physical world, and all of the phenomenon that you see in the mental world. And it wasn't until we did the work you know at the center in India because that was the that was the first place that I had ever combined the set of techniques, which are all of these techniques for rearranging, or accessing might be a better way of accessing the noddy's in the most subtle arenas. It wasn't until I did the work there, where I was able to see what it looked like when somebody actually burned, one of those seeds and it was dramatic. I mean it was very dramatic. the physical response was very dramatic, the mental response was very dramatic, but when we were able to help them to get to the other side, they were just no longer the same person, the things that they were haunted by, you know, physically and mentally, were no longer there, and it was, it was very much like a child waking up from a bad dream, saying, oh my gosh I can't believe I thought that awful dream I was having was real how good it feels to be awake in the embrace of, you know these loving parents and to know that I'm safe again. That was the experience and it was that dramatic and it was, you know, that, That quick. And so there's an entire set of technologies, of which sound is the most universal and it's the one that is the most readily available, certainly there's other technologies into the medicine but you need a practitioner for that, you know, or it could be a program that you have to go physically and do in person for three months. Sound is something that anybody can do. It's globally available, you know, no side effects it's inexpensive, it's free. Most of the time. And so this is one of those technologies on at the naughty level that is just gifted to the world.
That's really terrific and a couple of things came to mind when we began this, to me it's a little bit like what you're bringing here that I think is so powerful is an integral healing, it's so much what I love about your work that you you avoid this kind of absolutist ik approach in the West that you know everything has to be reduced to these, these silly materialistic paradigms and you have this wonderful elegant raised gaze where you bring about this integrated approach to healing which really, we can speak this language on this podcast which is fundamentally not just the physical expressions of this foundational pathology, which is really, you're actually talking about karmic human, it talks about getting to the very core. And so what, what I clicked on here is how it is that, you know, I've come to the mantra again using this maximum of penetrating the vital points mantra is kind of like an analogue to Audible acupuncture needles, where you can actually deliver precisely deliver with a skilled practitioner, a mantra that will in fact act as a kind of acupuncture point that will affect them redistribute open this energy. And so the one thing I do want to, to, to query you a little bit further on this is that in the Tibetan world, and I completely agree with you when you talk about anybody can work with, with mantra sound, that sort of thing but in the budget piano. There's also a, there's a little bit of a surgeon's warning here in the, in the sense that something that has this power to cure has somehow to correlate power to, I wouldn't say harm but, you know, you're talking about really supercharged methods here and so in the budget on a, there was always one of the one reason it's called secret mantra, but beyond is that there are over the counter mantras, and then in the virginiana there are prescription strike monitors and the reason this is somewhat interesting is that precisely because these, These practices are still transformative and you're dealing with such foundational dimensions of being that in the union, it says that if one doesn't have a stable mind do in fact, deal with some of the laxative wouldn't read it so to speak, when this stuff comes up, that, that it can be potentially destabilizing so can you speak to a little bit about that that something a little bit like the placebo placebo effect that that, that which has the power to cure, if it's not harnessed properly also as a kind of incompetent power to possibly be a little bit slippery or tricky, can you talk a little bit about that. Absolutely.
So first of all I just I absolutely love your metaphors, and it's a real pleasure to be asked these kinds of questions. Most of the people who interview we haven't gone so deeply into the practice to be able to ask this as this is wonderful. So, I 100% agree. And so, even in selecting the mantras that I gave in the book that consideration was in play, of which mantras are just the over the counter mantra, you know which mantra is just the the Tomes, you know where you can take it occasionally, and I'm talking about taking tongues occasionally now on your own. And you're absolutely fine. And so all of the mantras that I mentioned in my book, are those over the counter mantras, and when you get into more of the prescriptive mantras that's typically done with somebody who has a deeper experience with mantras are what we call a nada yogi. And my husband falls into that category and by the way that's not something that you can choose to become that is something that is gifted to you we only found that out when it happened to him because he was just literally gifted that and woke up with this. It felt like he just woke up with this ability. And so that comes to two points. One is, there are certain mantras that when you are pulled into that tradition, you're given, and you would never share anyways and that's because before this center that can be activated that carries the power of mantra, before that happens, the individual goes through a process of spiritual maturity where they not only understand the repercussions of it. But they, they would also suffer pretty strong consequences for violating because they'd be consciously now violating that so many, many mantras would never be, you know, shared publicly. And there's, in fact one mantra, in particular in the Southern tradition that I was really after, and many of these monitors are not written anywhere so it's not really an issue of, well, will the wrong person be given the text. Many of these mantras, when somebody gets that point of receiving the mantra, the mantras are then experienced on their most primordial level. So it's not given as part of a written tradition, it'll either be giving to you, orally by a spiritual teacher who's embodied, or you will get it in a completely different plane that, you know, again, it doesn't have to be protected the way that something does
in the physical,
but there's a particular Montanus to the tradition that I just so absolutely wanted, and my spiritual teacher had it's one of the most powerful and yet simplest mantras ever created. And, you know her response to be was just, you're not ready, like you're not even close. It was like, come back in like 20 years, you know, that was my inference from the conversation but it was almost as this look of disbelief that like, you know, I even thought I could handle.
You know the mantra,
and there have been ceremonies where I have attended where those kinds of mantras have been used, and they have said, Do not repeat this, because if you do, your body will go completely out of balance, because it does take up, you know, a particular type of individual to be able to contain the energy generated with that so that is absolutely true, and the kind of work that I do and what I have generally found is the mantras that you can access in written form, are not typically the mantras that carry that kind of power, but now the second thing you said about can mantras be used to harm, well yes monads can be used for any kind of direction but, again, there is this process of your power with the mantra grows as your spiritual maturity grows. And so, even as people are given certain mantras, maybe they found them, somehow, that can be used for harm. First of all that harm is going to come right back to them, because that's part of the science of monitors that everything that you are generating is eventually making its way back to you. And so the individuals that do reach that level of mantra yoga. They have no desire for that, you know, I think of my husband oftentimes who, you know he's been so deeply embraced by the Southern tradition in many yogic traditions, oftentimes just because of the purity of his of his heart which I it took me a long time being married to him to get why that was important. And then you go to India and then you just see kind of how he draws all these spiritual masters and how much they open up to him like,
oh this is really important.
And you know certain things that he's been given they're absolutely priceless, you know, and I'll say, why don't you use it for this or why don't use it for that he has no desire to use them in a way that would earn him anything that has a value on in the material, if that makes sense. He's so immune from that and I'm realizing that it's that immunity. That is why people are given those techniques so it's a combination of lack of access, but then also the power to use Montra grows as your spiritual maturity grows and as your spiritual maturity grows, the way in which you use mantra is with greater and greater discretion.
Yeah, isn't it, and then also fundamentally, you know, remaining in silence I mean it's like, Rumi said so beautifully, silence is the language of God, and that which really arises from Silence, especially these prescription strength mantras, they have to be held within the sanctuary of silence because otherwise, otherwise the opportunity to be transformed into an obstacle in that which you know can actually cure can cause some real damage so let's talk is there's so many areas of pain here but let's talk a little bit about, for lack of a better term, but we work in this area, um, you know origins of mantras and therefore 100 prescribe a mantra, you know, I mean for instance in the, in my tradition. We do a tremendous array what are called deity yoga practices where he each deity has their respective seed syllable or email address right. You know if you want to text or communicate with I would locate this far, you know, you say yes. Right, that's actually the sound of compassion, I mean that is sound of Chen Racing's mind. And so in my tradition. We are somewhat. I'm not sure generically is there is appropriate term but there are a set of standard prescribed mantras in particular lineages. Now that one is written and delivered at certain stages in one's path and so for people who may not be doing these more prescriptions, like practices. I'm very curious, both as a spiritual practitioner and as a health practitioner, how you go about prescribing mantras to both your patients and students, I mean how does that work.
So this wonderful question and I've been gifted with simplicity in that you know I am. I am not a not a yogi, and I'm very much, you know, a physician scientist and so I would not have that internal compass of necessarily saying, Okay, here's this person in front of me, let me give you know this mantra, it's very different when my husband works with people, and for him it's an extremely intuitive process but what he describes, is that the mantra actually comes with the person. And so his experience is very different from mine, and that the mantra will come also for different people but also for different chakras. So sometimes this mantra will come for this person for this chakra and for another person, it may be the same mantra, but for a completely different area. So, from his experience, it seems like a very spontaneous process and the role that he's playing is really just in receiving the sound and then giving the sound. And so in that sense, he's not really making the prescription he's receiving the prescription and handing it along. My practice is very very different in that I was given a specific mantra which I have in the book, The chakra mantra. And that's like universally prescriptive, it's just, it's like a shower that you take for the subtle bodies on a daily basis. And so I had kind of the easy path of, you know, just being handed this and then told, Go and give this to the world and I said okay, and then I happen to have gotten, you know, a book deal for medicine I said, Well, this seems like an easy way to give it. And then I give it to my, my patients so for me it was just handed over and then I was given all the means for being able to share that you know with the world. Now in addition to that, just as you describe in your lineage. There are specific mantras for different what we can call deities and I've really come to experience those differently now. For me, they're really an you might have, have come to the same conclusion but they're really archetypical energies that have a level of form that can engage the human mind, because we have a hard time having a personal relationship with a sound, especially with a big monitor where it's just one syllable. And so those archetypical energies, even though they may have different forms, they're ultimately leading kind of to the same destination. And so even though, different people may be drawn to different archetypical energies that for somebody, it's all about, you know, generating wealth or beauty or whatever, over time with that mantra practice, they're going to end up in the same kind of pool, as somebody who is mainly doing it for the purpose of protection and courage and so forth, that ultimately, all of those streams kind of come together, you know, and dump into that same, you know, ocean, and we're led ultimately to those same conclusions, Even though the paths we took matched our individual, you know our individual minds. And when people and like I said I gave many of the traditional Vedic and to the mantras in the book, when people say Well, which one should I start with, first of all I just say the shocker mantra is just taking a shower every day so that to me is just something you do because you want to remove the residue. But then if you want to go more to an individualized practice I really say tune in to which one literally resonates within you, which one is creating a connection to this energy, and then trust that practice, and then go with it, and at least for me what I have found is that if it is time to change your mantra practice and oftentimes it's not because if you go deeply into any mantra, it's going to lead you there anyways. But if for some reason, let's say that there's some seed that is held within that innermost, you know, field of energy which we call Anandamaya Kosha if there's some seed that just cannot be burned by this particular mantra. Trust that by the time you start getting into these subtle bodies, The person who is meant to help you at that stage is going to show up, and that is what I have found over and over and over, that you know I have a basic mantra practice that I have done for almost my entire life. But when it was time to overcome something that I was like, I can't get past this, that mantra came at that at that moment and so that is kind of part of the spontaneous prescription, that I think my husband experiences when he is working with patients that spontaneous prescriptive, you know process exists for all of us and just trust that that whenever the timing is right that will occur.
Yeah, it's really it's fantastic and what I was thinking about when you're talking about your husband is, you know, the sense of intuition. I play with that is being intuitive is being in tune with it. And it's like, it's a sacred listening if I think it's the same type of sacred listening that the silence of the students work with. Yes, you know, in my tradition, you have to be in a boomy Bodhisattva that's just two notches before full awakening, before it, I mean this is my languaging of it before you're actually silent enough, and therefore authorized enough to actually extract the speaker or invoke these mantras from reality itself, but let me ask you, you said something very interesting quote that I want to get in your way. What, to what extent can we proclaim the universality or the capital the city or the sounds because on one level, we're talking about the deep structures of sound that are in, arguably, in fact, trans cultural universal, but we have surface structures for instance, Amin Sanskrit, so to speak, versus Latin. Would someone in the Bronx, have the same result with someone in Delhi, exactly the same mantra, I mean, I love that.
I love that.
So this is the this is the example I would use because sound has been associated with religion, I think it's sometimes harder to see sound as a frequency, but light is oftentimes easier to see as a pure frequency and light therapy was something that was also used quite frequently in IR VEDA into the medicine and the way that they did that one of the ways they used in many ways, is they would actually show, you know, have light go through other particular crystals or particular gemstones and then that light would be cast upon a particular part of the body, depending on what the patient needed. Now, if you took people from all over the world and put them under one of these machines or one of these apparatus and just said, we're going to use light. I think people don't have that same question of well, can everybody respond to light in the same way we'd say, well yeah it's just light because there's not really, it's not constructed with a visual yet, right, when we combine lights in a certain way, then we can put it into a form, and then people might say, well that form of the Buddha doesn't resonate with me, or that form of whatever doesn't resonate with me, you know, but light in its purest frequency we don't seem to really have a problem with sound in its purest frequency is the same. Now, you do bring up though a very good question, and that is this issue of, you know devotion or compassion or whatever you need to kind of stimulate the, the heart chakra. When you start advancing in your use of sound. And when you go from receiving sound as a therapy to generating sound as your own therapy or even generating sound to provide therapy to somebody else, then the strength or the maturity of this particular center the heart center becomes extremely, extremely important. And that's where those concepts of devotion come in and so in, as you mentioned before, traditionally in many of these ancient cultures, that is where the devotion between the spiritual teacher and the aspirant would help to open up that particular field of energy. But when somebody didn't have a spiritual teacher in person, that's when they would use these archetypes to connect to to be able to open up that center. So when it comes to just purely receiving it, I don't really see there being any kind of like a biological obstacle, if somebody in the Bronx versus somebody, you know, grew up in South India, I think when you start to utilize it yourself. It's really important to find a way how to open up the heart center as you're using sound. But what I've done with patients who were absolutely open to using, you know bija mantras in particular because they're just a sound. It's just a monosyllabic sound and so they go, there's not a whole lot that my mind is really attached to here, they said, I can't open up the heart. And so what I would recommend is just say, okay, so what image for you would do that. And for different people, you know a varied and I love one story that I share in the book was that for one gentleman, it was a picture of his wife, that as he started to realize the level of unconditional love that she had actually provided to him over the years, she took on that archetypical image of, you know, unconditional love and compassion. And so that picture then helped to evoke those feelings, and then his practice of sound medicine became much much more transformative.
I mean that's really beautiful is it precisely where he wanted to go with this because you know, Montreux is very interesting, it has kind of these multi veiling properties right because on one level, is a mind protection. It serves to gather and center the mind, that's kind of the penetrating quality right, you know you're delivering a very precise laser guided tool of wisdom. But at the same time, this is what I find the genius in this technology is that it both gathers and opens right, so you're delivering this pin pipe points, so to speak, strike, and then the consequence of that, of that, you know, blast is kind of depth charge of wisdom is that one's heart opens the chakras open, and I love this because this is something you can do. It's not just a purely cerebral event. And for me, clearly this is where transformation takes place, it takes place in your Soma, it doesn't take place in your head. It takes place in your body and so when you're working not just with body but now subtle body. Now you're actually getting at the very root of feeling and so visceral command relates this, this really key issue that I love you delivered in the book about how we bring octane to this practice by opening from our side right through the power of devotion, care time bhakti, Guru Yoga. So, is to leave something with our listeners as a way for the maybe the deeper diver to work with these more nuanced levels, opening to the power of love and devotion which is this uses the power of love for purposes of awakening. So talk to us a little bit about that how we can supercharge these practices with in fact this kind of aspect of the emotional component.
That's a great question. And it's when you get to that emotional component that is where the magic really occurs, and that is where the deep transformation both physically and mentally occur, and it's a very spontaneous thing. So your question is a bit of a paradox because you're asking, how do we cultivate something that is that happened spontaneously. And the way that it's described in the in the Vedic literature is, it's when the mind bows down to the heart. And then what happens when that occurs is there is this super conscious experience. We're now heart and mind have become unified, and they have access now to far greater knowledge and wisdom than kind of that small mind. And I think for each person. It's an extremely individualized journey which is of course why having spiritual teachers is of so much value because they can see, you know that this is what it's going to take. I think the part that you can do on your own is at least begin to research this phenomenon so that you believe it, so that you believe that there is value to the mind by bowing down to the heart now that took me most of my life, because, especially as a neurologist, I was like, I'm sorry, what, why would this magnificent organ down to anything. Um, so I mean I spent, you know the good portion of 40 years figuring out that that's actually what I wanted to do. So I think the first step is just get to a point of knowledge, where you understand that that is something you would actually want to attain I think that's the only part that you can do. But when that becomes a true desire, when you realize this is really important.
I don't know how to
get there. I think that is when the opportunities come, and depending on your preparedness the opportunities can come either in small steps which I think is the most graceful way of doing this, you know or like in my incidents that happened in one giant step where my ego was so pummeled repeatedly,
that
there was a point where my mind had to just give up and go, Oh my gosh, Every skill set that I have, intellectually, is not going to make this happen, something that is so important to me it's not gonna make it happen. And I Acquia store I begin, you know that process of backwardness of acquiescing my, my mind power to to the heart was really because I was brought down to my knees, and so that is an example of a polished ego, you know, coming to this process. My husband was totally different. You know, his I mean his journey was just so radically different, but we look at both of our individual journeys and we just see how they both goddess to the same place. So all you can do is prepare yourself enough to have the desire for it to occur, and then being willing and open to how it actually takes place and not to be so excited when you think you've really figured it out, because that's, you know, that's what I mean is that that policy go going, Oh, I figured this out because that is the very part of you that is about to come crumbling down. And then once you do start to tap into the heart and you see the power of it and you see the ease with which you can live life, both in your relationships in your professional life. When it's in charge, and it's, it's coupling with that higher consciousness. When you see the ease of it you go why was it the other way, that was unbelievably painful it was very slow.
It's this is just so beautiful Corinne I know we have to slowly wind down here but it's elegant because we, we began with the power of right view, and we've done a little Cora around the stupa of sound and we return to the power of right view and, to me, I simply could not agree more that you know the complexity doesn't stand a chance against simplicity, and I think that's why power of view is so important, so that we can in fact surrender and there's always warmly reminded of this beautiful quote by Rebekah where, where he says you know winning does not tempt that man. This is how we grows by being seated decisively by constantly greater beings and like constantly greater beings or things of silence and so if we if we have this right view, we will bow at the steep we will surrender to the elegance of this wisdom that fundamentally of course is inherent within us, and so I want to thank you so much I know how busy you are, it's been such a delight. Before we close up for today and first of all I would love to have you back to, you know, I wouldn't say we've scratched the surface I think we've done some really cool things here, but there is so much more to talk about like sound is the nature of reality. Sound is the nature of mind and how we suffer from a kind of nature of mind deficit disorder that sound can can actually cure. So we can revisit that perhaps at a later time, but we have left. How can people find out more about you. How can they support you in your in your current ventures.
You can find out more about me by just going to my website, Dr. Currie chaudry.com In my previous Dr and then COVID childhood.com If you Google me I'm the only query Chaudry I believe on the internet.
I somehow got that unique name that nobody else seems to have
it and then on my, my website, it has all of my, my social media, and in terms of supporting me, I would just say, choose a sound practice and then start doing it because I think when we each start becoming kind of these pillars for higher frequencies for ourselves and then our families and in our communities. What happens is it just opens up the world for receiving higher and higher, you know, levels of knowledge, and I loved what you said about you know that willingness to be beaten down by those that are, are wiser. I think if we can just ready ourselves as a community as a global community for that willingness of okay, we're tired, we're done of this old way. We're ready, and I think so much of what we're seeing now globally is part of that preparatory process of just saying, yes, you know, we're ready. And as we start to do that in larger and larger numbers that longing for that type of knowledge will come in and we'll all benefit and I by no means expected to do the work that I did in South India, all of that was very spontaneous but now as I'm looking at it, I'm realizing that each one of us gets these spontaneous opportunities, when the world starts asking for it, and then individuals in different areas are just pluck that say okay, you have the right mix of this and that to be able to share this, you know, so that's how my career seems to go along just based on what is next for. And I'm usually in the process of receiving, as everybody else.
And being such a sensitive listener, I mean we can emulate this it is right I mean if we if we just simply are the directors we just simply shut up and listen. That's actually shut down the pastor in my tradition, then you know the symbolic guru was always teaching us so we can emulate receive these teachings and so, oh my gosh, so much to say but I know you have to go. It's been a real honor and delight to spend time with you COVID You're doing some marvelous things in the world we're all beneficiaries of the work as a cultural translator practitioner scholar, and so please continue what you're doing to bring the benefit to many and hopefully have the opportunity to do this again sometime.
I would love to and I'd love to talk more about the Civic tradition I would love to be able to share that
with you dearly, We'll make a point about that all the best, and we'll definitely stay in touch. So, thank you so much.
