[122] The Power of Wind: Exploring the Subtle Energies of the Mind and Body Through Breath and Meditation – with Andrew Holecek

12:28AM Aug 1, 2023

Speakers:

Andrew Holecek

Audience Member

Keywords:

mind

winds

mantra

meditation

respiration

yoga

talking

work

breath

bardo

unwinding

recitation

fall

cessation

experiencer

dream

duality

state

movement

stages

Everybody's friends and enemies alike. Nice to be with you all. This is great, so much fun. It's just nice to gang. So if you are new to this, this is our meditation thing that we started a while back for nightclub. As a way, you may wonder, okay, why are we doing this? Well, we do it because when you're working with 3d as you're working with your mind, studies have shown meditators have more dreams. And so as you well know, we've had a bunch of really wonderful people here helping us out as we go through all this kind of thing. So I'm going to jump into my little riff in a bit for this evening. But as usual, I just wanted to say a couple of things about upcoming events, the big the big two events of the draw, draw Mountain Center event. And the luminous part of our Dharma TA in a little over three weeks, a little under three weeks, actually, this is the deepest dive of the whole barrio series in a really powerful place. And so this is a hybrid event online and in person. So check it out. It's, it's a, it's a pretty cool gig. And then the month after that, actually, Alyssa, if you can find the conversation I did with Bob therm can might have set it to you, we could post that for them to check out. After that, in September, I do my annual gig with my dear friend Bob Thurman, who's amazing. At Mandla. It was the only program I do all year. Nature mind series is the only one that's done in completely in person. There's no hybrid component with the materials just so so. So Bob got together, Bob and I get together a little over a week ago and did a little riff on the kind of stuff we're going to be talking about in the sort of trying to pull that up and pick it for you all. But in the meantime, I hit the pause button, here we go lesson for you. recording in progress, recording in progress. So last time, I was chatting with you about practice and again, we'll say some comments and then we'll do some practice is I was saying a couple of things about the extraordinary power of winds, the inner winds prana chi long, Holy Breath. I mean, it's amazing how many wisdom traditions have overt covert intimations teachings on the extraordinary power of wind. And so I'm just going to review one or two simple things from last time, and then take a little bit deeper, to show you how far and how profound this topic is. Because in contract languaging, that's actually what constitutes thinking is literally thought is defined as movement of mind. It is a subtle movement of the wind, that actually shapes the mind forms the mind deeply connected to karma. Karma has often talked about his wins. And so we're gonna go a little bit deeper in this, to show you why this central notion of breath respiration, wind is just such a big deal so big that the whole spiritual business right spirituality comes from a root word that really derives from breath. That's how big a deal it is that any yoga instructor will tell you. Yoga period is about learning how to work with breath. And so I wanted to reinstate a couple of things in relation to how this breath works at deeper levels, using some of the teachings from the fifth of our nocturnal meditations. Remember, we have five of them liminal dreaming, lucid dreaming, Dream Yoga, sleep yoga, slash yoga, Nidra. And then body yoga. So I want to say a couple things from the deepest end from Barton yoga about how far this goes. Starting with a statement from His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, when he says when the meant when the mind when the mind pays attention to an object, right? It does. So through the movement of wind. And so if that's true, whoa, I mean, this is amazing. And it's really quite interesting to me that attention, I've been think reflecting a little bit about this, what is intention? Attention itself is nothing more than the distance between subject and object, that's what intention is. So, attention itself still applies at the level of duality. And what actually creates this sense of duality, what separates the non dual mind into dualistic phenomena is in fact the fracturing that takes place with these wins. And so it was called the inner dissolution process. Now this is somewhat interesting in relation to respiration as well. So Central and the Bardo dying, that the Bardo dying is, you know, goes through eight stages. First Five Stages I've got a lot of this death and dying thing on my mind right now because I'm there's just so much happening with all of these programs in the preparing today institute that we're working with. The five stages to the outer dissolution are basically also called the five stages of the cessation of the outer respiration. So when we're dying when we go through the Bardo of dying, which in a concordance fashion, remember this happens every single night. Falling asleep, is a concordance or similitude. Experience of the painful Bardo nine. So the Bardo, dying is really the unwinding the unwinding, Berto, that's what it is. It's the on windy, winding burrow. And so when we take our final, last, physical breath, that's the cessation of the outer respiration. And you obviously can determine this quite powerfully, if you're at the site of someone when they die, they take one final breath. It's amazingly powerful moment, the breathing breathing, you take one breath, and that's it. It's kind of stunning moment of silence. With all their lifeforce energy has been returned back into the primordial lendr reality itself. And so then begins this really interesting thing. That's what I want to talk a little bit about the cessation of the inner respiration. And that is, in fact, the cessation of the subtle inner winds that take place in three stages. And so these three stages are I don't want to go too far into the weeds here. But stage seven, actually no stage 667 and eight. also connected to the deep yoga charity teachings and the Eid consciousnesses which I've talked to you a little bit about way back is it stage six, which is called the stage of whiter parents is when the the grossest of these subtle wins, the wins that is associated with aggression cease, and all those wins are basically entering into the central channel. This is what happens when we die. And it happens again, it could cord and fashion every night when we fall asleep. So when the grossest of these wins member, the Dalai Lama when the mind pays attention to an object, and Josephy, the movement to end when that when that that inner wind is the roughest of kind of the three overarching categories. We know that phenomenologically experientially is anger, aggression, rage, when the mind is really almost violently moving away from itself. The next stage is stage seven in the inner dissolution process, cessation of the inner respiration. That's when the kind of moderate winds associated with grasping passion, cease. And then there's specificities in details here of a little bit beyond what we really want to talk about here. But then the last stage is this really, really subtle cessation of the intervals, respiration, were really really subtle winds that are associated with the root of all poisons, ignorance, not knowing the rigpa that collapses into the central channel. And so these are the three root poisons. So this is why this is so important. You've got aggression, passion, and ignorance. These are the three principal styles of inappropriate relationship to the contents of our mind to others to the phenomenal world, three fundamental ways that we inappropriately inappropriately relate to what's actually happening, driven by the force of these winds driven by our karmic patterns and habituation. So this entire journey, so that stage six stage, why did parents aggressive where winds come in stage seven, moderate winds coming to the central channel. And then the last one is called the stage of Black Entertainment. These really, really, really subtle winds into the central channel. It takes about 20 minutes in the course of the dyeing process. So according to the Tibetans after someone has died, there is about a 20 minute period. It's funny in the literature, they say, about the time it takes to eat a meal. Okay, are we talking about Thanksgiving dinner? Or are we talking about, you know, McDonald's, but you get the idea. It's roughly about 20 minutes. And so during that 20 minutes, that that consciousness is still absolutely positively within the body they haven't left yet.

And so all the ones collapse, literally, you see it in exhalation, then the cessation of the inner respiration, all the ones are coming in. You can experience this in really deep meditation. So when you're engaged, and some of you may already have had these experiences when you're doing really, really deep practices, you may notice the intimate correlation between your outer breathing and the velocity of the infrequency of your thoughts you may have already noticed this. And so with a complete cessation literally naroda with a cessation of all thought activity, well guess what happens? Your breathing stops. And this isn't just like hyperbolic or metaphorical or whatever, no. You're literally sitting in meditation and you're not breathing. And so how are you maintaining life? Well through the lifeforce, prana running through your actual the pores of your system. And so, these deep samadhi absorption states are analogues to this and then in a microcosmic way, again this happens very briefly every night when we fall asleep. And so then what happens, okay, so you're unwinding the part of dying Bardo, sleeping, or falling asleep as a minor unwind on wind. Then you enter into deep formless states, the deep dreamless state or in the Bardo literature in the Battle of darkness, PA, well, then guess what happens? Then the wind started up again. That's literally what's going to blow you. So when you're dreaming tonight, actually see deep dreamless sleep. When you're gonna drop into deep dreamless sleep the respiration, you may notice this, if you're paying attention to somebody that obviously in complete cessation. But you notice this kind of countenance this equanimity, this pacified kind of respiratory process. And then the winds, what happens is the winds start to move, they will move the mind consciousness away from the heart center, up into the throat. That's what we know is the transition from the primal asleep, into the dream state. So this is what's taking phenomenologically taking place, when we transition from deep dreamless sleep into the dream every single night. And so, one of the ways I'm looking at it now the process of this kind of winding opera or Bardo becomings, connected to that, analogous to that of the Bardo, becoming, is directly intimately related to the dream state. This is the winding up Bardo, this is the when the winds actually come back up. And you were one you know, we're kind of winding makeup, the winds are starting to vote. And so take this even one step deeper. So thinking majestically here, so think thinking mythical poetically go to your right hemisphere. And one way to look at this, that's really pretty cool. And you'll again, you can start to witness this in your meditation. As the mind starts to slow down, the the sense of frequency or insight or thoughts diminishes, you enter, you can enter the state of meditative absorption where respiration ceases, well guess what happens? There's no sense of duality when you enter in a rather some apathy or you went to a really profound Xhosa Maha Mudra states. In deep meditation, you go from a dualistic world of beginning of your meditation into an experience of non duality. And the respiration is actually directly correlated to that and is a sign of that. And so what then happens in logistically that I love this image is you can think of the the nature of the mind itself, it's a very common analogy. It's like an ocean that completely mirror like surface of an ocean. And so then what happens is, the winds of the mind start to move. And what they do is they they blow for those of you who know that you'll get Chiron material, I can't quite go into all this now, but some of the deeper diversity of this may speak to you. This is when the seven consciousness blows across the eighth actually creating waves that forget they're made of water. And so right here is the birth of duality. So this is a wonderful image to me, I think of it a completely glass mirror like surface literally called mirror like wisdom, interesting correlation. The winds start to blow respiration starts to move. The winds blow again across the majestically across the nature of the mind, arousing stimulating winds, that's the excitation that we then lose. And mistake for dualistic appearance blows across that surface creating waves that forget they're made of water. And so fundamentally, this is what's happening moment to moment to moment as these very subtle winds are taking place. The three primary root poisons ignorance, passion, aggression, moving at these subtle dimensions of the mind always keeping the mind in motion keeping the mind moving, keeping the mind moving. Why? Well because like I talked about last time with you for the ego. It's really a move it or lose it phenomena. You move the mind or in very real way you lose the mind. So movement is a kind of, it's kind of like food for the ego. Motion feeds the ego movements suggest nutrition, this is the language in movement suggest food. I talked about this last time, biologically in terms of how movement is so necessary for survival, predator prey things biologically we're sensitized to movement, because we're either either will be looking at food or we will become food. And so I've reflected on this and I said, maybe this is exactly what's happening with ego, which is why there's this insatiable appetite for the mind to relentlessly move to get lost in the movies of our mind, the most intimate expression of the movie industry, is sitting between your ears. And that's just what the untamed untrained mind does. It's constantly churning things up making things moving, keeping things going. Because if it doesn't, if, if it starts to actually unwind and settle down, well guess what happens, the wave settle, everything falls back into itself. And the sense of ego itself dissipates. And so another implication to this is that just like the all there is to the waves, is the movement or activity, the ocean, this is why it's such a powerful analogy, all there is to the waves is the movement or activity of the ocean, all there is to the finite mind, most archetypal a representative for us ego is the motion or activity of infinite awareness. So, let me say this again, just like all there is to the waves is the movement or activity of the ocean water, all there is to the to the finite mind, is the motion or activity of infinite awareness. So this is exactly what constitutes the finite mind is this motion. And therefore, secondarily, to this all there is to appearances, is the movement of awareness itself. That's what appearances are, that's what experience is. And so there's actually analog to this. In in quantum electrodynamics, or quantum field theory, this is actually really interesting. I've been diving into some of Barnardos, kastrup stuff. Again, I'm always reading this guy. And so what he does in a really interesting summary fashion, quantum field theory, there are no this hang with me for a second, because this is pretty profound. There actually are no particles in reality. And so when they talk about, you know, the standard model in physics, and they talk about, oh, there's the irreducible particles. Well, there actually, there are no such thing as these fundamental particles. What there are, is they're fundamentally 17 quantum fields, which they're trying to now unify into a grand unification field theory. But what's incredibly interesting, so hang with me, because all this hopefully will tie in what actually constitutes a particle is the excitation of the field itself. In other words, transitioning now from waves in the ocean to a field. All there is, in the world of physics, are these quantum fields, that's it. In the world of physics, what constitutes a particle is nothing more than an excitation, a ripple, or a movement in the field. So there's that word again, movement, all there is, is is the field itself, what we know is particles in the 17 standard models are all reducible to the 17 quantum fields. That's all there is. So fundamentally, there's only the field, the particles are just stimulations, excitations movements in the field. So here's where his work all this connects to us another way of saying the same thing. So this is one of the deeper dives in the meditation journey that I've given with you just because I'm just kind of into this stuff right now.

There's only the experiencer. So you can think of, of like, infinite subjectivity, mind itself, mind enlarge whatever term you want to append to it. Every tradition has dozens of names so that we can fundamentally not be named, but there's only fundamentally the one experiencer. And you have to think everything here. And in quotation, almost mythopoetic Lee, when we make this transition, there's only the experiencer what we know is experience is nothing more than the excitation, the ripple the movement, of the minefield of the one experiencer. So let me say this again. There's only the experiencer what we know is experience, which is what creates duality. This is right here the basis of what gives rise to the sense of duality, the sense of self, another And therefore the sense of all of our suffering brought about by these fundamental winds that are just blowing across this kind of field, the field of mind itself, right? And so there's only the one infinite field of subjectivity, only infinite awareness only. Whatever rigpa I mean, all the different words we have for that, what we know is experience, which seems to be dualistic with an experiencer, there always seems to be an experience. Well, the experience is nothing more than the stimulation, the excitation, the ripple, the movement, of the minefield of the one experiencer. And so it's like, okay, well, that's really interesting. This is something you can absolutely positively see in your meditation practice. If you're a little bit adept in the dissolution, unwinding process, through liminal dreaming, lucid dreaming, and Dream Yoga, you can start to see this unwinding and winding until everything comes down into this open kind of field Mind Mind field of the one infinite experiencer. And so every night when we fall asleep, mixing metaphors, coming back to that one, the wave falls into itself, we unwind we are when we settle down into this placid dimension of equanimity and sleep. And as the wave relaxes, because the winds relax, as the waves relax into the depths of the ocean, exactly what happens when thoughts relax into the mind itself. The ocean, the mind loses its agitation, and then having no activity or movement, the way therefore loses its separate form or identity. So it's another way of talking about the birth of duality here, you can start to see this in the arising abiding and cessation of every single thought. And so I wanted to riff on that a little bit. Hopefully, it's not too esoteric, but I just find this stuff so bloody interesting. Because it applies to the deeper dimensions of what takes place. Every time we take a breath in meditation. Every time we're following our breath, every time we're working with respiration, and gross and subtler levels, you start to work with his unwinding process again, happens every night when we sleep, it's gonna happen at the end of every life when we die, you can witness this and meditation, you can notice the dissolution, the collapsing of the mind falling back into itself, the cessation of this activity, this movement brought about by the winds, you'll notice in your own experience, you're not breathing as much, your mind is more settled, less waves churned up less thoughts. When those waves all fall into itself, the activity ceases literally no Roda cessation. At that point, the sense of duality itself can be completely experienced. And so the next time you enter a really deep meditative states, samadhi states, jhana states absorption states of the mind enters in these ultimate, really deep levels of tranquility, as the mind falls into itself. This is what's happening phenomenologically with the inner subtle body, and it definitely has a correlation to what happens to us every single night when we fall asleep. So I would say this is probably one of the deeper dives that I've shared with you in my time, these meditations so let me see how this lands with you. But before we turn to some conversation around it, let's do a little unwinding. And then we can have a little conversation because I'm trying to in this brief riff to get to the essence tying this in to the Bardo yogas tying this happened this into what happens every day, we fall asleep and then when we wake up, winds come up next life winds come up this process is happening all these different levels all the time. So go ahead and close your eyes

pay attention to the quality of your mind right now. without judgment just notice how windy as it how many waves are choppy is it? I'll tranquil is it just notice

as we relax into standard shamatha, standard mindfulness over the next few minutes in silence. develop our kind of observational intent. Just like with liminal dreaming, observational intent to watch your mind

in notice how as your mind settles mind falls into itself the waves settle into the ocean winds on wind

perhaps notice how your respiration changes

if your awareness is little bit refined sensitized you may notice that every time you even lay thought thinking which now you could equally say movement

but there is indeed a solemn diminution in the frequency and velocity of your respiration so simply notice.

One reason why Hinduism and Buddhism there are so many

breath taking

meditations the breath retention Koba practice in Hinduism

meditation was called VAs breathing and Buddhism

the whole host of esoteric inner yogic meditations that are designed to work with these winds and again when we engage in that really meditation but also Dream Yoga, you visualize either a red pearl or Lotus in the throat center when we're doing that we're actually directing the winds into that throat chakra. So these winds are absolutely central. to so many meditations and yoga is

pay a little extra attention to the end of the exhalation best in that gap. Before you start to inhale, this rest on that open Space

Now notice just as a brief invitation to experiment notice what happens when you the end of the inspiration before you exhale you gently hold breath for as long as you comfortably can just notice what happens to your Mind.

And perhaps also notice

the quality of your mind from 15 minutes ago frequency velocity of thoughts is it diminished is it settled?

There's why this is such a marvelous form of Eastern spiritual sleep hygiene to work with unwinding on a wending before you go to bed with a few minutes of meditation

in a very real way, meditation is not something you do it's something you cease doing. Activity, movements and so the stillness of the body silence of the speech. Invite a diminution. Cessation of the activity of the mind inviting you to fall into itself precisely what happens when we fall asleep. Precisely what happens when we drop dead the wind falls into itself

Perhaps this little two part commentary on the power of wind breath will help you understand why so many wisdom traditionally meditation mindfulness of breath

so, perhaps you better appreciate the movement of your mind and its connection to respiration both inner and outer

This is why something as simple as our one breath meditation session that we introduced so many months ago can be of such value just one breath on mindful connectivity

we can have a little discussion there was one question that was sent in which I will open up on my other computer but you can raise your hand by you know how to do it with the reactions bar you can ask a question in the chat or you can make a comment doesn't always have to be a question it can be a contribution let me get this one that did come in

okay

okay for mature Yeah, okay, Bernardo? Yes. Bernardo kastrup argues for the importance of myths for helping us recognize receive transcendent truths for sure he does this principally in his book more than allegory, which in my interview with him, I interviewed him. You can listen to it and as your mind, he mentioned to me that that's his favorite book, he now has 11. It's a wonderful read. The importance of Miss for recognizing and receiving transcendent truths. Western culture has undervalued myths for sure. Just like they undervalue dreams. deeply connected. Is this a problem? What can we do? Yeah, nice, Richard. Yes, I do think it's a problem. Because I think what it does is it dismisses the deeper, longer running and more connected to reality dimension of our mind, you know, this, this kind of mythological way of thinking, poetic way of thinking the mythopoetic way of getting to reality which has been around a heck of a lot longer than the the snotty little brat, the cognitive brat on the block, which is rationality, logic, cognition, as we know and appreciate it. This is just a young whippersnapper. 30 to 50,000 years max has been on the block and that arrogantly dismisses other forms of relating to reality. So I do think it's a problem just in the same way that we undervalue dreams. That's also a problem. What can we do? Well, we can reestablish our connection to myths in Western culture or in eastern culture, it just in Western culture alone, you have the work of probably keytar Peter Kingsley more than anybody else, Patrick Harper. Worldwide myths, of course, the amazing contributions of Joseph Campbell. I mean, I devoured his work. When he was all the rage, power meth remember the series he did with? What's his name? Kessler, his name off the top my head. But so study the work of Robert. I'm sorry, Joseph Campbell study the work of Robert Bly. Peter Kingsley, Patrick Carper, Robert Moss, I interviewed him recently, Amis are all really wonderful, sophisticated thinkers, workers in the world of mythology, just a sampling of so much that's available to you. So I do think that it's a problem. It's part of our disconnect from reality that the only way we can assess adequate knowledge is through rationality, and logic, and so called scientific thinking. And so when we make ourselves more available, especially for people listening here on this platform, when we become more available to the math, we realize, as Joseph Campbell always says, in many ways that dream is a personal myth. A myth is the collective dream. So they're very, very deeply, intimately connected. And so in exactly the same way that we lose connect connection to the value of dreams. The same thing, when we start to devalue math, it has the same deleterious effect. It's all part of this. Unfortunately, consequences ever since the bratty new kid on the block, rational thought came in and didn't, you know, just forget that it was held within the context of hundreds of 1000s of years of mythopoetic thinking. So. Yeah, I do think it's a problem, Richard, that's, maybe one of the best things we can do is just read it. The literature is amazing, and it's just so fantastic. All the authors I just mentioned, including Bernardo more than allegory, you know, it's fantastic stuff. Okay, I see prom dots up here. My Sharon pujara. Anybody

questions? You started by mentioning the classification of the six from the liminal dreaming to the Bardo yoga.

Yeah, it's actually five. Yeah, liminal. Dreaming, lucid dreaming, Dream Yoga, bhakti yoga through yoga nidra. in there. It's basically synonymous with sleep yoga, but there's five in mind mapping. Okay.

And then don't you also have an another classification of nine?

Well, that's different. That's the consciousnesses. Right? So I don't I don't have a classification. Oh, I see what you're talking about.

I think you mean cream yogurt? No, no,

no. Again, let me let me just see if this is what you're thinking about. This comes from Nando Shriver Tantra where they talk about nine gradations nine granularities, of relating to waking dreaming. In dreamless sleep, I'm not sure that's what you're asking. But that what that's what comes to mind. And so what they do is they take the three waking, dreaming dreamless sleep, and then they they increase a more refined understanding of it. So you have the waking up waking, the dreaming of waking, the sleeping awakened, the dreaming of dreaming, the waking, dreaming and sleeping of dreaming, right? And the same, the same with the last and so I'm not sure that's what you're referring to. But that's what comes to mind. And it's actually quite interesting because the scientists now I've mentioned this earlier. With increased measurements, measurement capacities in neuroimaging are able to detect it, it's it's very rarely one big isomorphic rain drop unless you're dead. Parts of it. In other words, parts of the brain could be awake and another part of the brain can be asleep. Secondly, what happens when we're working with Dream during yoga and lucid dreaming? I mean, that's waking consciousness inserted into the dream state. Sleepy augers waking consciousness inserted into this in the sleeping state. And so I'm not sure that's what you're referring to. But that's what comes to mind. sets out right? Are you thinking of something else? No,

I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking of something else. And I think it was from it's your classification in the Dream Yoga Book or something.

Oh, that Oh, yeah. Yeah, those are my nine nine stages of Dream Yoga.

Okay, so that's so there's there's six stages and then there's no

oh, here's in my this is my mapping. This is you will find this another traditional text. What I did was I took what I learned in the classic meditation texts Were extremely pithy. And I basically flesh them out, I fleshed out the steps. And so in my mapping, I have these nine stages of Dream Yoga. And so there is no six and subset there. There's there's basically nine going from rather accessible entry level to quite deep, subtle, non dual levels. So yeah, those are the nine stages of Dream Yoga that are in the Dream Yoga Book. I think that's what you're talking about.

Yes. But But you mentioned the six stages that you mentioned at the beginning of this talk. That starts with liminal dreaming. Are those

are five I think I only mentioned five, five, sorry. Yeah. So let me which again, I like this term. This is Jennifer do pair coined this term. Originally, it was called hypnagogic. Right? hypnagogic or hypnopompic. Sleep, pre and post sleep. I really liked the usage of the term liminal. So I co opted liminal. Dreaming. Lucid dreaming. Dream Yoga, sleep yoga. Party. Okay.

Those five. The third one was Dream Yoga. So then the nine are set up that breakout from Dream Yoga.

Correct? You got that? Right. Yeah. So the nine stages connect to the third in that regard? That's correct. Okay.

That's what I wanted to clarify in my mind. I am obsessed with classifications. I have. The other quick question I had was the the role of mantra in in attenuating, the, you know, loan, the prana. Absolutely. And particularly with the example of vodka recitation. If you

if you Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And I've had very powerful. I mean, some of my earliest biggest breakthroughs were in fact, through mantra recitation where monitor, you know, mind protection keeps the mind from straying out. And so when I was doing my TM, my very first TM instruction session, I stumbled into this wonderful deep absorption Samadhi state. So the power of mantra there absolutely, positively brought me into the into just cessation of activity. And so what you're talking about via recitation, yeah, so that's going from partial recitation is basically synonymous with mental recitation. So you start with vocal recitation, you go to a whispered semi audible recitation, then you drop to what's called Visual recitation or metal recitation, that also in itself, recapitulates, this decrescendo, diminuendo kind of trajectory, where things are becoming more quiet, more centralized, more interior more settled. And that's one reason is often practice that way, as a way to invite the mind to fall into itself, you know, you'd like terms as well. In Tibetan, the word is wrong and pop, the mind falls into itself. And so all these, whether it's much a recitation breathwork, or whatever, you're inviting the mind to see this relentless activity driven by these wins. So the mind fundamentally settles falls into itself. And the minute it does that, the experience becomes more and more non dual, because the sense of duality is actually created by the relentless activity of the finite mind. And that's why the finite mind can never know infinity. That's why the dualistic mind can never know non duality. Because they're mutually exclusive. You can't have that type of activity. Well, I say I can say there was some caveats, there's gets a little technical, but fundamentally the moving mind. The normal conventional, rational thinking mind can never know these dimensions, which is why we go through the classic three part here and contemplating meditating. It's really only, and I mean, heartstopper, only in meditation that this can truly be known. Otherwise, you're still lost in the surface job, no matter how subtle it is. And that often that surface job can become extremely subtle. But as long as there are a sense of there's a sense of experience and experiencer this is how you can tell parenthetically, when someone's having an experience, so to speak, of lucid sleep, when you're actually having it, it's actually not an experience. That's why people don't recognize it. So as long as there's a sense that I'm having that experience, that's still dewlap duality going on. It might be very, very subtle, but that's one way to assess it. I'm experiencing that. Instead of I am that and that, in fact, is the final collapse. That activity becomes so subtle, the mind falls into itself. Non duality is so to speak experience that said actually realized, is a complete fusion or absorption with so called objects of experience because they collapse into each other See, subject and object just fall into each other. So this Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. Nice to see you. Okay. So somebody had their hand up, I must have scared them away they disappeared. Okay, honey, beautiful moments of infinity both in the zenith and nadir of the breath and also the Middle Passage. Very cool. BILL MOYERS exactly, thank you, Beatrice. BILL MOYERS powered myth. Andrew, everything you said earlier makes a lot of sense. And I agree with it. I do wonder how ever Where do those original winds come from disrupt the still ocean creating the appearance of separation and duality? Yeah, the winds come from the movement of space. So that's what wind is even conventionally again, we're thinking and illogically. Here, it's not the same as outer, wind and space, but neither is it different. And so again, getting away from there's so many metaphors being mixed here, we're getting away from the ocean. And other ways to talk about this space itself. Mind is just space itself in what is wind, space and motion, mind and motion. So where do these original winds come from? They come from the the wind, the the open space of mind itself, in Xhosa literally called him space awareness. Is that some kind of innate cosmic cycle? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. It's certainly a natural expression of the samsaric mind. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by innate cosmic cycle. But I think the most important thing is the appearance the creates the illusion of separation. That's why it's always an illusion. The illusion of duality is brought about by whether it's the waves in the ocean, I'm sorry. Water and waves, or when in space, those are just different analogies, trying to point at the same sort of thing. Okay, are you talking about saying mantras out loud whisper quiet? Is this the technical mantras? Yeah, so we haven't done a whole lot. I don't think yet. I'd have to look back with mantra recitation. In our meditation, Monday night meditation series, maybe I can start introducing some of that to you. But yes, one of the classic ways Marie to work with mantra recitation, is you start with without or vocalize, or it's just like, I'm, like, you're hearing my voice. Now you're reciting the mantra out loud, whatever it is, and when he brought me home on Monday by the 1000s of mantras available, and then a classic invitation is to bring it down to a semi audible whispered recitation. And then is Providence is talking about it's called vydra recitation or mental recitation. You basically then recite it with your mind, minds. So called internally, they're not less effective. One dimension of recitation is not more or less effective than another. They're all equally effective. But there does seem to be, we sense the way I was trained. In fact, when I did my TM thing, that's exactly the way I was invited. Those of you who may have done TM, the TM guy gave me my mantra. We recited it out loud. That actually without saying anything, he invited this kind of de crescendo. We went down together exactly the way I'm sharing here, and I just beginner's luck, I tripped into a really beautiful meditative absorption changed my life on the spot. Is that run Bob? Um, yeah, it could be ra n g, self B O P fall, not be APB op rag bop. It can be it's not the mind is it being invited to fall into itself with this approach? So it's not exactly the same as full rombach When the mind does fall into itself, but I think you get the connection. Whoa, big lightning bolt is going to send my dog ballistic. That's the mantra of budgie Dini, by the way, thunderclap. So the roundup that takes place with is is actually invited with this kind of diminution of the recitation decrescendo for sure. Okay, fire away. Jerry. In the meantime, I'll look at Tim's follow up here.

Unmute yourself, Jerry, you're good to go. Oh. Far away,

I hear you. Okay. Well, you know, my, let's say for formal introduction to meditation was very similar to what you describe with transcendental meditation. You know, it was in my early 20s. That was the first formal meditation Shouldn't and at that time the group I was with, someone would come around and give each individual person their own mantra. Okay. Cool, you know? And, you know, I practice it for a while, you know? Who was the yogi who came around, you know, toured the United States, Maharishi Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yeah. And I was in Arbor, Michigan at the time. Of course, nobody I knew. attended it, I kind of attended it, because I heard about it and thought it was interesting. But are you saying that, you know, when you sit down for formal meditation, you should start with a mantra. And then after a while, start paying attention to your breath, like, like we did with the meditation we were doing today?

Not necessarily, again, I haven't really said much on monitor yet in the series. And so basically, I'm bringing that up just because it was reiterated here, but the relationship between between mantra recitation, and meditation is probably a little bit beyond what I can get into tonight, because it's a somewhat larger topic. They're their practices, in and of themselves, like much of recitation is a massive, extraordinarily powerful practice in and of itself. You can use it in countless different ways. And so yes, indeed, we'll briefly if you find it of some benefit, and maybe we could start a little series on mantra recitation, you can recite a mantra, do it in this kind of diminution day crescendo type of approach. Notice how this affects the settling of your mind. And then you can use that to to either enter formless states, which would be the complete ultimate silent, you know, ultimate mantra is silence. Right. So they're definitely related. But, you know, at this point, I'm slightly cautious to just throw out suggestions for how to work with these without actually taking the time with you all, to understand, especially your intro recitation, as a practice in its own right. And then obviously, deeply connected, because by you're working with the mind, both ways you're working with the mind monitor is just a very powerful, classic approach to work using sacred sounds. And so there's this is a really, I mean, it's such a big topic, Jerry, that synonym for tantra, varje. Rihanna is mantra Jana? I mean, it's it's such a big deal topic. So perhaps with your permission, I might write Note to self and say, you know, we could introduce a little track exploring monitors together. Because I have to go through, you know, the two years that we've been doing this to see if we've actually exported, I'm not entirely sure, I don't think I've introduced them. But I'll check if that we can maybe start a little track on it, because it's super helpful. monitors to work when you go to sleep. monitors to work when you're dying monitors do I mean, there's there's 1000s of mantras, perhaps just for starters, listen to the interview I did with the neurologist or your Vedic physician, Cooley Chowdhury, she wrote this beautiful book called Sound medicine, double entendre intended. And we had a pretty fun riff, talking about mantra. So if you go to Edge of mind, you'll find it also a nightclub. You can check out that that little podcast I did with her, because we do start to talk about it there. I recommend it. She's pretty cool. And the book is great. I highly recommend the book.

Well, you could just put it in, you know, like, the chat chat session. Her name in the book, you know, so I can I'll do it. I'll do it right now.

Who read? I think I'm smelling it right. It should be enough to get

you going. Okay. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Yeah,

very welcome. Okay, well Oh, yeah. Okay from the Barnes we'd be very interesting to start motor teaching Okay, note to self it might be time to work with sacred sounds because I'm doing it a lot like in almost all my programs these days. Dream Yoga in person programs we're doing the Dream Yoga mantra Bara yoga. We're working with a number of mantras so Note to self next time I started up with you I can start a little a series on on the power mantra. It's a big deal actually in my life. Mantras had been colossal. They've been a really big game changer for me. So good. All right. Unless there's anything else we're good for today. We've got Thursday we start the new dream. The new book study group and this one is going to be on Barna yoga. So again, this is like the stuff is really big on my plate these days. So we're going to go through my big book on preparing to die, which is, of course, again, the culmination of the whole nocturnal meditation series. So that's going to be a new introduction that's going to take us a bit of time because it's a big book. Saturday, I'm pretty sure right, Alyssa, we've got dream sharing group, pretty darn sure that's happening, which is a wonderful opportunity to get together and share your stuff with a group, great group of people. And outside of that, you know, what we do around here, you've got the rest of the idea. We can dedicate our merit in ways that work with us. Basically, whatever. Gather at all, whatever feels right for you send it to all sentient beings. And then we do this really fun thing. At least I think it's fun where we can unmute ourselves. Turn the cameras on very briefly and say hi, bye is a big hug. Until next time, and I'll see you Thursday for the introduction to the dive. And the preparing to die book. I've been waiting to jump into this one. It's gonna be great fun thank you thank you

hello, hello. Hello. Hello there. Goodbye. But Hi everyone. Ah, great seeing you all infinitely grateful