Welcome to the mending trauma podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Amy Hoyt. And along with my sister Lena Hoyt, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, we want to help you recover from trauma, whether it's childhood trauma, complex trauma, PTSD, or any other trauma sustained from abuse or narcissistic relationships. We want to help you develop skills and ways that can help you to recover from the symptoms and the effects of trauma. We are so glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The mending trauma podcast. We are excited to be here today and dive into trauma and all things repairing trauma.
Yes. Yes, welcome. We're glad that you're here today.
Okay, so today's episode is something Elaine and I have been talking about for the last few months, as we've seen an uptick on social media, of mental health practitioners talking about emotional cut off. And when it's time to cut off from your toxic family. This is a subject that we feel pretty strongly about, because we come from a relational repair standpoint, and we want to dive in and figure out what is emotional cut off, and when is it appropriate if ever to emotionally cut off your family. So Lina, what is emotional cut off?
Well, I remember going to graduate school in the 90s, late 90s. and learning a little bit about this. And how I remember learning about it is that emotional cut off is the idea that you are going to discontinue contact with somebody, because the interactions with them cause you a lot of pain, or because they are problematic. And a lot of times what I remember learning is that emotional cut off can be really problematic. As you and I have talked about, there are some specific situations in which it's beneficial, but that's only when there is active abuse going on. And as you mentioned, we come from a relational repair framework. And the reason why is because as we've talked about so many times in so many of our podcasts, we have those two major biological drives, and one is for safety, and the other is for connection. And so when you and I have discussed this before, we've talked about how it's becoming more common in social media and our American culture for people to encourage cut off from people who have hurt them.
Yes. And one thing just for the audience to be aware of a lot of times right now it's called going no contact. So people will say I've gone no contact with my parents or my family. Or you'll hear parents say my child has decided to go no contact. And so when we talk about emotional cut off we are it's the same thing as going no contact. So when what are the steps before one even starts to consider going no contact with a parent? And what are some of the things that kind of come up in therapy with your 25 year experience of where teenagers or young adults or even mid midlife people are thinking you know what this relationship is so hurtful? I'm not sure I can do it anymore. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Sure. It is interesting, because typically what we're looking at is we're looking at dysfunctional relationships. And what a lot of people don't realize is that the dysfunction can start early in your childhood. And the amount of emotional pain we have is directly related to the kind of attachment trauma or other childhood trauma that we had in our relationships with our parents or caregivers. And that is a setup for a very unequal, imbalanced relationship. And even though we're no longer eight or 12 or 16, those elements can still be present in that relationship, which leads to this cycle of maladaptive behavior, maladaptive engagement from both parties. And I can remember really early on learning in the early 90s through our own family journey that one person can completely change the dynamics of A relationship, and that I have tried to teach clients and coaching clients over the years because it is so empowering to recognize that if I change my response to you, Amy, then we can't have the same dynamic,
right? Yeah. And so I think what I hear you saying is that, before going, No Contact is even considered, we want to look at a framework of changing our own response to the person or to the family dynamic. And what this brings us to is another concept we talked quite a bit about, and that is our internal locus of control, versus an external locus of control. And with the internal locus of control, we're looking at the things that we can control. It's a, it's about learning to regulate ourselves, and bring ourselves back into a window of tolerance, which is where we can think and feel at the same time. But that concept can be extended a little bit to also include actions and behaviors that we have control over. And when we look at that at a relational framework, and we use internal locus of control, as a anchor, in that framework, we realize that I Amy, if Lena and I have a severely toxic relationship, if I change my behavior towards Lena, the dynamic is going to shift. So what does this look like with when we have a power dynamic? So you and I are siblings our power is we barely eat equal in terms of a family dynamic? What about with young adults and parents where the parents are, you know, maybe still financially supporting them? Maybe there's still a lot of hierarchical power dynamics. How do we? What do we do with that? What do we see with that with clients,
that becomes a little trickier. I can remember, in the early 2000s, going to a new therapist, and explaining to her how stressed I was because dad had said he would pay for my master's degree. And then he changed his mind. And I can remember going into the therapist and being really upset about this. And she said something to me, like, you just need to let it go, or something like that, which was very non relationally focused. So when we have a power dynamic that shows up, there are lots of nuances to that, including it. First of all, I was pissed, but mostly heard. And so I didn't want to let it go. Because it was a promise. And I had started grad school with that promise. But additionally, it mimics some of my early relational trauma with dad and, and so I was able to using some of the tools that we found in Al Anon and some of the tools I learned in Codependents Anonymous, I was able to engage with dad and a different kind of communication about that. And that helped me be able to express what I needed to to dad, and, and he was able to stay better in his window of tolerance. And so we were able to resolve it. I thought and so
I mean, really, that's fantastic, because that could have gone really south for years.
Absolutely, yeah. And there have been other times when I've had to approach mom and dad about certain things, one of the things I found really helpful to do is to write to them. So sometimes when we have a hot topic, and we have a hierarchical hierarchical relationship with parents, sometimes writing can be very helpful, because we're not as reactive because we're not face to face. But there's a lot of decision making that can occur with that hierarchical power. And I think about how some people have chosen to say to their parents, I'm, you know, I appreciate you offering to financially support you, I'm going to decline that. And in their minds, that's the only way that they can have a cleaner relationship with their parents. And as a mental health professional, I don't get to choose what's best for somebody. So if that is something that they think is best for them, I want to support them in finding ways to have boundaries around their relationship.
I think that's a really great point that some of the steps that we get to before cut off our communication. So we want to communicate with the person that we're feeling like maybe we need to cut off from them. And I'd like to say that most people before they cut off or they go, no contact, have tried communicating. I don't know anyone who's gone no contact that that was their first step. And if you ever see a mental health professional, that is guiding you in that direction without any sort of relational repair, that is definitely a red flag. But if you're thinking about going no contact, we definitely step one we want to communicate. And as Lena is suggesting, written, communication can be a lot less volatile. It gives people time to think and to process. The second step would be to insert some sort of boundaries, if you haven't already. And those boundaries can be around finances, they can be around having people weigh in on your decisions in general. And one phrase that I find really helpful is no, thank you. I've already got that. Thank you so much. So that's all and that's a very clear, you know, I hear you and I've already got my decision. But I appreciate. Well, actually, I don't say I appreciate because that's not actually,
I don't appreciate you weighing in, but thank you do not appreciate your interest.
And that can be hard as a parent now of an adult. You know, I recognize that I'm in a position now to have starting to have that young adult start to differentiate. And it's, it's a really interesting transition as a parent as well, seeing them make their own decisions. And knowing that it's, it's none of my business unless they ask specifically for advice. And that's really, really hard as a parent, because one day you're shuttling them through life. And hopefully, they're, you know, 1617, up to 18, you've been doing some things to help them gain independence, and you're kind of backing away from being as micro involved. But it can be a real I want to acknowledge for parents, it can be a really difficult shift as well to let our young adult children start making their decisions without our input, uninvited input, especially. So we have communication, we have boundaries, what's our next step for repair, before going, no contact,
I think about in terms of boundaries, how hard it is to set up a new boundary system in a system that you're already in. And one thing that I have found really helpful for my clients is to coach them into a way of responding to intrusive notice, that is not designed to make things worse, but is but really clarifies and stick with the boundaries. And I was talking about this in our program, the whole whole health lab for women last week, and I and what I said to them was, sometimes people's reactions to us are shaming and blaming and guilting and manipulative. And I think about that, like somebody's trying to hand you a tray of poo. Like, here's my tray of poo, I want you to hold it now. And one of the best ways to say no thanks to that is to say something like, you are really upset with me because I chose to buy a new car. But that's it. You don't say anything else. So
basically, you're preserving their you're calling out their emotion or their behavior.
Yes. And the thing that's very hard for people is we tend to over explain, as we talked about in our podcast last week, so I say let's say you just come to me and say, I'm so angry at you for for buying a new car. And I say, Oh wow, you have a lot of thoughts and feelings about me buying a new car, then I don't say anything else. And then you have an opportunity to respond and I use that same approach. And what I'm doing over and over again is I am clearly identifying that your thoughts and feelings about my behavior are yours to manage. The other thing I teach a ton of clients is the concept of triangulation and it's when you have a relationship with two people, but a third peak person gets involved. This happens a lot of times and romantic relationships or marriages. And so you will have to pardon learners who are married to each other. And then you have family members or friends who try to get involved in that relationship by giving advice by insisting that one of the partners respond a certain way. And anytime you have three people involved in a relationship, it's a triangle. And that will always lead to relationship dysfunction. When we're teenagers, I always say if you want guaranteed drama, bring another person into your one on one relationship with someone and you'll have guaranteed drama.
So going back to cutting off or going no contact, you want to keep that communication between you and the person that you have the issue with, and then reiterating, really reiterating what you said previously, is you want to reflect back to them that any feelings they have about your behavior are theirs alone to manage, correctly. Okay,
but you do it calmly. So instead of me saying to you, it's really your business, quit talking to me about what I'm doing with my money. I just say, Well, I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about me buying a new car.
To me, it sounds really condescending, which would be very triggering. I'm wondering if there's a way to reflect other people to other people that it's their feeling to manage without coming across condescending? Is there another phrase? Or is it just a tone I'm picking up on?
It might be a tongue? And I'm actually really careful with my tone when I do. Yeah. Because it can be problematic. Yeah. And so your phrase of No, thanks. I actually think we've talked about this in a podcast before like a year and a half ago. I love it. So your phrase of No, thank you, I've got it covered is beautiful. The the challenge I see is that we tend to argue with somebody who's involving themselves in our business. And what we want to be able to do is we want to be able to step back and disengage, because their intrusive pneus is a result of their own anxiety or fear, usually, and we can't manage that for somebody else, right?
I'm aware that besides parents being overly intrusive, there is another very serious and very valid reason for going no contact, and that is active abuse. And so let's talk about when it's justifiable to go no contact,
I believe that when you are engaged in a relationship with someone, and it's almost impossible to find a neutral way of engaging with that person, that would be a time to go through the steps we've talked about. And if that doesn't work, you might want to consider very limited contact,
what is limited contact when compared to no contact talk about that?
Sure, limited contact can include that you reach out to somebody on their birthday via text and wish them happy birthday. It can include that you've don't ever meet with family members in the privacy of a home but only in public. So you meet for dinners or lunches that tends to help people behave better. It can include that when you have somebody who is really afraid for you and kind of beats a subject to death, keeps insisting on talking about the same thing over and over again, that you say to that person. I'd really liked to spend a half hour with you without that topic coming up. And it's occurring to me that all of these things are really about finding ways to have our own healthy boundaries and reinforce those as opposed to saying, I just can't talk to you anymore. Yeah.
And if said person that you're considering going no contact with will not respect your boundaries. I hear you saying limited contact, like a tag correct, et cetera. I have experienced with this with one of my parents where I had to go very limited contact for several years. It was extremely painful. But also really helpful for me to become stronger in my own boundaries and my own foundation of self love really. And knowing my worth and realizing that you know, we all want our parents to love us and not only love us, but we want them to like us currently when they're behind havior you know, despite what they say, when their behavior says otherwise, it can be really destabilizing. And for me, the benefit of limited contact was that I was able to spend that time really reinforcing, I am a person that's worthy of love, and worthy of being liked. And if this person who happens to be one of my parents doesn't like me, that's okay. But that took a couple of years. Um, sir, it's extremely difficult. And so I just want to let our audience know that this is not a topic that I'm like, you know, so far removed from Unfortunately, I've had to grapple with this as well. And the other thing I want to call out, because I did consider going no contact. And I just kept feeling this nudge that ultimately, that was not going to get me closer to where I wanted to be as a person. And for me, I really try to minimize contention in my life. And so limited contact felt like a really nice way to become solid with myself, without having contention. And then I could try to, if I felt so inclined to build on that, at this point, it's still fairly limited. But I don't have the same contention as cutting her off completely, and feeling super deeply resentful. Instead, I feel fairly empowered, that I get to communicate as much or as little as I want and about the topics I want. And it feels, again, it's a loss, there's definitely a loss, a sense of loss. But ultimately, I feel a lot more empowered than having that no contact, which felt really scary and sad. To me.
That's wonderful. One of the other things that we don't realize a lot of times, Amy is that when we go not no contact, we are oftentimes depriving others of their relationship with somebody that we have problems with, I think a lot of times about parents that have really difficult relationships with their own parents. And when they go, no contact, a lot of times, they don't allow their children to have interactions with their grandchildren. And you and I have experienced this for over two decades that parents can have a entirely different relationship with their grandchildren than they do with their children. That's right. And so when we decide to go, no contact, we need to make sure that we are not inadvertently causing relationship rupture for other people
don't have the same dynamics. Yes. And that is one thing that was very, that weighed very heavily on my decision is the relationship with our children. And I want I knew they had a great relationship with their grandparents. And that's awesome. That's what I want. I don't need them to have the same relationship that I've had. They don't have the same history, they they're interacting with different people at different ages. And so I love that you point that out, I do want to say my decision would have been radically different. If there was still sexual abuse going on in the home, if there was still physical abuse going on between our parents, if there was still verbal abuse going on. So I would not want to expose my children and I've had to go limited contact with other people who have active sexual abuse dynamics in the home that I'm related to. And so it's okay to take all of that into consideration. And if you need to go no contact because of act of abuse. I can't think of a better reason, honestly. Correct.
Correct. Yeah. And I think that that is vitally important to reiterate again, that if there is a an abusive dynamic that is active, then we have the right and the responsibility to protect ourselves and any minor children that are in our care from those dynamics.
Yep. So we hope for relationship repair, even for people who are abusive and we've seen it in our own lives. We've seen different people in our family get the help that they need, repair their relationships and stay fairly consistent with their newfound and skills. Right. And so it can happen. I think that's the whole reason we we started mending trauma I know it is. And that's the whole reason we do this podcast because we have seen firsthand, over and over and over people can change and people can repair their relationships
there and they can heal 100%. And one of the pillars of our program is we are wounded and hurt in relationship, we are repaired in relationships, right.
But the exception is act of abuse, absolutely do not have to abide by that. So anything else you want to add in terms of emotional cut off or going no contact?
I think that the only thing I would add is that when we are out of our window of tolerance, or when we're in fight flight, freeze or fawn state, what happens is instead of making an active choice, we are making a reactive one. And it requires that we be mindful of that as we make our decisions about how we engage with people, whether they're family members or not. And that the great first step is to have some sort of communication about how somebody's behavior is affecting the relationship.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And if you all have any suggestions for topics, we always love to hear them. We take things from members of our community that we run, we take things from social media, but we are really always at service to address any topic having to do with trauma or a surrounding issue, and we look forward to speaking next week.
Thank you for joining us, everyone.
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The mending trauma podcast. Lena and I are really grateful that you spend time with us each week we know you have a choice and that time is currency. We would love if you would share this episode on social media and tag us so we can reshare if you feel so inclined, go and give us a five star review wherever you listen to pod so that we can get the word out and help more people. We know that we are all working hard on our mental health and we wish you great success this week in implementing these new skills we'll check in next week.
