You're listening to the thoughtful counselor podcast created in partnership with Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more at Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concept. To learn more about our team and find links from each episode, visit the thoughtful counselor.com If you're a fan of the show, we hope you leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe now with the Show
All right, and today I'm talking with Dr. Sejal fox, a professor and counseling department chair at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. She has experienced as an elementary and high school counselor, and as the lead author in school counseling in the 21st century, along with many peer reviewed publications. In addition, Dr. Fox is director of the urban school counseling collaborative, a partnership that advocates for professional school counselors supports local urban schools, and informed school counseling practices to improve urban student's academic and social emotional experiences. Dr. Fox teaches both doctoral and master's level courses. And our particular areas of interest are school counseling, multicultural and social justice, urban education, and creating equity and access to college and career readiness. In addition, Dr. Fox works with interdisciplinary teams, and has obtained over $3.8 million in grant funding from the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation. Her areas of interest are school counseling, and education and college and career readiness. Welcome, Dr. Fox,
thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to have you and to talk about some of these things that you're doing in your community and beyond, which is very inspiring. So if you could give a quick introduction about yourself, and what even brought you to what your areas of interest are.
Sure, I, you know, really reflected a lot on going back to me starting my career as a school counselor, and what got me in this direction of working on social justice, advocacy and multicultural issues in education. And it really was my experience of working in a title one school as an elementary school counselor. So if we back up, I have my masters in school counseling. And I worked in elementary and high school areas. And I, through those experiences really saw the inequities in within within our education systems. And so I thought to myself, you know, if we are expecting students, all students to succeed academically in the same way, we ought to be providing the same resources, there ought to be an equitable foundation for that to happen. And unfortunately, because of my experiences within the schools, I thought that I found that not to be true. And while I'm sure we'll go deeper into some of that, more detailed, but I will say my journey is also based on my own experience of being an immigrant to this country. I came. I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, I was raised in London, and then I moved to the south. And that was a really big cultural shock for me and my family. So already understanding that navigating a system of education that we had no knowledge of no experience of no foundation, no one to go to no one to advocate for us. We really, I think we're just left sort of felt floundering and figuring it out ourselves. And not until I became a school counselor what I thought, wow, there were people in the building that were supposed to be helping me and supporting and giving the information that, you know, I ultimately never got figured it out, but never got. And so when we talk about urban education, we'll also talk about the people who comprise urban, urban environments, and often that's immigrant families as well.
No, as soon as you started talking, I started thinking about even more recently, we're hearing some of these long term implications for students with COVID. And how going to distance learning and sort of those inequities have now we're starting to see the outcomes of that. Could you explain a little bit about maybe in your early career, things that you observed that then led you to get doctoral training and led to some of your research line to
Yes, absolutely. So I, I always knew that there I wanted to be in a position where I could support other people and and when ways that I that I, unfortunately wasn't supported in my education. And I didn't know what that looked like. And lo and behold, I discover I'm from Jacksonville, Florida discover this school counseling program at the University of North Florida. And I meet with Carolyn stone, and if anyone anyone knows Carolyn stone, and I didn't know who she was upon a contest. Yes. So that's, that was my introduction to the field. And I can't help but think that that was, the best thing that ever happened to me was that I was trained in a preparation program to design by Carolyn stone. And the reason why was because she was thinking about urban education. her dissertation was on the myth of meritocracy when it comes to math. I mean, she was doing this work when before it was popular to do this work. And her whole, she she created her master's program in school counseling. It was supported by the National Transport and the transforming school counseling initiative, which was that one of a few universities got funding to transform the school counseling profession. And one of the things that she one of the stories that she tells, it has always sat with me and it still sits with me today, when I when I train school counselors is she tells a story that she thought she was, you know, being a good counselor, educator and teaching students about advocacy and systemic change and using data. And really thinking that she was doing everything that she could to prepare students to work in urban environments and diverse communities. And she said that one of her top students in her early years, there was a there's a school counseling position open in the north side of Jacksonville. And if you've ever been to the north side of Jacksonville, it's a very densely urban community, mostly Title One schools, and a lots of lots of need that we can we can support a school counselors. And she said, You know, I know the exact person who should be on this interview and should be wouldn't be a great school counselor for this community. And she gets a call later in, the student says, she's like, I didn't go for the interview. She said, What do you mean, she said, I got to the parking lot, and I couldn't go in. And so she laughed. And so we have this white suburban
school counselor,
going into this urban community. And she left and Dr. Stone says, well, that can never happen again. So her internships and her practicum alright, you know, there, there's a required experience to go into the northside of Jacksonville, that's kind of the foundation, this is what we do, is almost like she gives an informed consent about dispositions, and this is what we're doing. And so when I started my master's program, you know, she's saying you have to go do your internships at one of these schools. And because of my immigrant background, and where I came from, in London, it's a very diverse area, and very urban, I didn't have thought of like that being a problem. But I remember other students in my class, particularly the white suburban women, getting really frantic, raising their, their their hand in class and saying, you know, my family doesn't want me to go there, because it's not safe. We had a student who quit their program who didn't want to go, and all of the just the, these, were talking about unconscious bias, but all of these biases and stereotypes are just wow, just came came to the forefront. And I'm sitting there in shock. And I'm just watching like, how is Dr. Stone going to handle this? You know, how is Dr. Shoemaker going to handle this? And they did. So acknowledging their where they were, and just said, we're gonna be on this journey with you. And so the, the evolution of us in, in being in a different environment with different individuals, different people who just grew up differently than us, but then ultimately going to work with these students in the schools. That was, oh, wow, they had the same dreams and aspirations as any other kid, you know, their parents have the same dreams and aspirations as any other kid. And not once in the 20 plus years Stock Show been doing this, has there been an issue of violence? You know, I mean, there's never been so it's the idea of, not until you go and experience and you be with and you have conversations and you get uncomfortable, you know, with your and because you've been so comfortable in your space and you see what you see on the news, not until you go and allow yourself to do demystify and uncover and disrupt all of that. Are we going to really understand the truth? And the truth is, you know, these kids Just like I, as an immigrant, you know, we have the same hopes and dreams and aspirations as, as everyone else, and just need the support to get there. And so that was instilled in me in a very in my master's program. And I was using, I was taught to use data before the ask a national model came out folks how to use data. And it was like we were we were anomalies in our district to graduate and use data. And it was very scary. And I thought, you know, even in my school, when I became a school counselor, they're like, are you? What are you because I would talk about using data to inform my practice? And I'm like, What are you but teachers would say, what are you gonna like? What do you mean, what am I you know? And I'm like, I'm a school counselor, like, why are you using data? And I'm like, Well, I'm using data to show where our inequities are. And that's how I was how I was taught. So I'll just share one more experience. And then and then I'll let it go back to you. But one more experience was that, it when I became a school counselor, it was I had to still Yes, I still had a year, my preparation program, I suppose I got provisionally licensed and was hired. And I remember going on a field trip as part of a master's program to another school, in a very affluent part of Jacksonville. And here I am, in this affluent School, where all these resources, and the one thing that stands out to me is they had our rock climbing wall for PE. And I thought, how can they have a rock climbing wall, and our stone students don't even have working computers. I mean, I thought, they have to have these used textbooks, these old textbooks. And these folks have a rock climbing wall, that in my mind just didn't make sense to me. And it also made me angry, I had to really just do that work of moving away from my anger. So I could be I could I could do the work that I needed to do, because that was just astounding to me. That how in America that can be possible
in two different places. So what you just explained, were these critical incidents that you had, and what I've seen it happen to counselors, as a counselor educator, we can get angry, and then we move on with our lives, we kind of get back into our place of comfort. Could you maybe talk a little bit about how that led then to research questions you started having, because then your dissertation actually gets formed into understanding these attitudes, these beliefs. I think that can be really important for counselors to understand when we get the anger, what is another step besides just kind of like, well, it is how it is. And then going back to what our norm is?
Yeah, it's so easy just to be angry and say, well, about problems too big, and we'll move on. But I think it's the idea of you can't unsee what you've seen, if you as a counselor, even if you're working with an individual client, and we believe that change is possible. I was doing a workshop the other day with a local school district on solution focused counseling, and they think about the big problems. And I thought, you know, solution focused even it's the it's the small change that one experiences. And so we can take that into the larger context and the macro. It's the small change, we're not going to change systems overnight. But what small change can we make? And for me, it was a lot of the changing of attitudes and bringing people along. I got back into my building and thought, Well, okay, I could sit here and talk about all the things that I don't have, mind you, I didn't have my own phone line, I had to beg for my own computer. You know, I had a bag for my office, which was a classroom.
So they were advocating for yourself from the beginning of your role.
Yes, yes. And, and I knew I had to do that, because of my training. I mean, I knew that even just even fellow counselors are like, Why are you using data? And you know, still people are like, Why are you using data? I just, it was one of those things where I just was I had learned to do and it's wasn't easy by any means. And you know, there are days where I'm exhausted, I'm thinking, Am I Am I making a difference? But I got back out there. And one of the things that I learned to do my preparation program was collaboration, like, you cannot do this work in isolation. That's impossible when you're thinking about the systemic type of change we're talking about. And so the collaboration was okay. I was the only school counselor elementary school. And so there's no other school counselors to collaborate with. So who else in my building am I going to collaborate with? And I started formulating those relationships, you know, building that trust with partners who I knew Whoo, we're in, we're working in these schools, because they're passionate about kids, they're they, they want to make a difference. And also learn to part with my community. So with my community, as we know, in a lot of our neighborhoods, there are food deserts, there's not a lot of stores. So I would go to, you know, a local, a local restaurant, and the one thing that we had was a Walgreens. But I would go to the dental office and say, okay, you know, we're restarting the PTA, can you donate some something, or I'm starting a character education program, and I need some giveaways everyone, and they would donate. And it didn't take much, I didn't have to go to these big donors. I just knew I remember walking to Walgreens, I remember walking to the dentist office and just asking for something. And I mean, so Walgreens gave me gift cards, and that dentist office gave me some some money in the local restaurant gave me some coupons. And it was like, You're so I made that last I was and I made like, we got like dollar pencils. I mean, I'm gonna make it work, you know, and even even, you know, like erasers, the things that I know that students need in schools, right? It was like the supplies. And so I turned it into those things. And I thought, these are some things that I can do that I know that even in the smallest way can create some positive sort of recognition for our students who are working hard. And then the other thing was collaboration. Because I use data, I just saw that and will. And we know in urban education and urban schools, the high discipline rates, particularly for black males. And I saw that with my own eyes. And I thought, Okay, this is this is really just in my way of being as a counselor, very unethical just to see this behavior go on, and nothing happened. And so I went to my principal, and I said, I want to collect data on the discipline referrals. And that principle was like, No, I don't want that data out there. And I just said, you know, let's make a deal. You give me the referrals. And of course, I'm not going to deal with the referrals, the behavior itself, I just want to log them in. And I'll do that for nine weeks, and then I'll share with you the data first. And then if you're okay with it, then we'll share it with the faculty. And I share the data with her. And it was like over 300 discipline referrals
in an elementary school, and then when I disaggregated, the data, it was mostly second and third grades. And the principal was just floored. She thought, Okay, we're a DF school, there's no way we're going to get to where we need to if we're sending students out. So I was very brave. And she allowed me to present this at one of our meetings with the teachers. And I got up there and share the data. And I was terrified. Because I thought I'm calling people out here. I didn't say names, I just said gray levels, and you know what grade level you are. And everybody in the audience was just in shock that this is what we're doing in our building. And so going from that to in my presentation, I created what are some action items we can do as a school. And it was classroom management training, I already contacted the district to get training on that. I was digging myself learning about Safe Schools, and creating a positive school climate. And I said, we're gonna I'd like to formulate a committee for us to revisit our discipline policies and how we do that. And I got teachers to volunteer right there. And we rewrote our discipline plan. And we kept students in the classroom and years after I left, because it was a team effort, that school went from a failing D to an A B School. And because we we know that we got to keep the students in the classroom. So change is possible, even in the smallest way you going to your local dentist and getting some resources or to you know, systemically, you know, be brave and advocate and show that data and ask people to join you and doing the work.
That immediately goes to my question you exemplify two things. One, the bravery like you said to be that bold, you're coming in in a new job. You don't want to ruffle feathers. It can't be the sense of like community and you're sort of respectfully calling people out calling these issues out. That's uncomfortable. It's inconvenient. So what how are you brave enough to do that to my school counselor? and colleagues, peeps, you all are very, very busy. You're responsible for hundreds if not 1000s of students. I'm also like how to Dr. Fox even find the time to one field energy to be innovative to build these collaborations? Can you speak to Yeah, what helped to cultivate professionally personally, bravery, but also this sense of like time management, a sense of energy to be innovative in your role as a school counselor?
Yeah, I'll start with the bravery. It's funny, because in my personal life, I'm the most quiet introvert. I'm not, you know, the person at the party who's going to go and network and talk to people, I'm going to be the one sit in the corner and just like waiting for someone to talk to me, and that's just how introverted I am. So, I think it's caught up sort of, from this inner fire that I've had, just from my personal experiences where it can be, I've seen some really experienced some really racist things growing up in the South, and having parents who, whose English is, you know, their second language, and them not really understanding how to navigate and seeing people how to how they treated them. Like I grew up, just and my siblings just grew up having a natural, like protection, kind of a thing of our family, because it's like, just because they don't speak English in the way that you think they ought to, doesn't make them, you know, unintelligent, and so learning over time is just that fire I think I've had, but also the training that I had then was, I remember being in my school counseling preparation preparation program, and it was like, this is your ethical mandate, like you're signing up for this profession. And therefore you need to figure out figure out a way, you know, and, and be be not go into a building and just say, this is how it's done. But build relationships, build trust, build collaborative build collaborations. And once you once you have sort of that kind of aspect built because I knew there were no naysayers in the building. But I also knew by that time, because I've taken the time to build trust relationships, and got my principal Finally, on my side that I was like, Okay, I have some level of protection now, right.
Last year, also, I had data, like you said, it wasn't just your opinion of what Dr. Box thinks is wrong in a school.
Right, exactly. And so the bravery came after, you know, a year and a half of building relationships that, you know, I kind of just sat back and got to learn the landscape and the environment, and, you know, respecting the folks that have been there and doing the work, and, and all of that, because I'm not on the expert of all things. I'm the expert of being the school counselor, and an understanding that. So I think the bravery comes from just a lot of the those kinds of things. But I think my preparation program just said, you basically don't have a choice, you're signing up for this, you know, your profession where you're speaking up for kids. And that's, that's, you're the voice and you have to figure out a way to, for me find that voice and then share it. And then your second question, I'm sorry,
finding the time to even be innovative create these relationships, when I just know what the workload is for school counselor.
Yes, that took a lot of advocacy, like I said, or self advocacy. When I first became a school counselor, this, the former school counselor, there was, you know, doing their reactionary kind of things. And I was just expected to step into that and just go towards business as usual. But again, my preparation program was very different. And I knew that if I didn't start off on the right foot and advocating for my position, it was going to be that much harder later. And so I would say to my, my principal, like, yeah, so you know, I'm going to start using data to figure out what classroom guidance lessons I want to do for, you know, what groups I want to do. And then I remember my first year, they forgot to have ordered the subs for the kindergarten classes. And they had to leave for professional development. And my principal is like, I need you to watch the kindergarten classes. And she put like, 40 kindergarteners in one classroom, and I had to watch them. And I thought, oh, okay, this is everything I've heard about that happens to school counselors. And I did it. And I just said to her, I just said, you know, I'm happy, you know, to be a team player. I said, But when I'm in this position of sitting here and watching these kids, I can't now go and you know, call this parent or why go go and talk to this kid or do some programming that I have Plan. And so after that, I started putting my schedule on the door, and just saying, This is what I have going on, like I am not just a free free body, and then finding the just the inner time and resilience, I'll be honest, there were days that I'd go home and just be completely exhausted. And there are moments where I would just cry, like, especially in my first year just thinking about, gosh, these issues, and it's just so difficult, and how am I going to make this work. And then every day, you know, I'd go home, and, you know, just figure out a way to just let the day go. And I had to learn what self care was then
at that moment, and go back the next day. And I think, when I learned to advocate, I remember my principal before she, you know, before, in that within that year, were like, Satan, you can do everything that you know, nobody else wants to do kind of a thing. And she didn't even have an assistant principal. So she wouldn't be like, here, you can do this whenever she would leave the building. And she wanted me to witness a discipline action. And I just said, No, I, I can't do that. And I said, I'm not being, you know, not challenging your authority position as a principal. I said, but it's unethical for me to do so. And then I said, I will bring some literature about that. And I remember literally printing out the asker position statement on school counselors and discipline and giving it to her, I remember doing that. And I trained school counselor today, I was like, those position statements do come in handy. I'd tell you why. And so And she looked at that, and she's like, okay, I guess I guess you're not just you know, you know, you're you're not just doing your own thing, kind of an established and founded in a profession and ethical codes and standards. And so I think over time she started, you know, understanding that more and more so. And so I think it was a lot of education around my position that first year from the teachers like, who are you? And what do you really do to teaching and training my, my principal on my position? And so? And I will say, don't take no for an answer. It's sometimes it's like, the it's the No, that's now but no, not the no is not forever. And I'll give you an example of that is I thought, okay, if I'm really going to be able to do some advocacy and social justice work, I need to go where the decisions are made. And then in school decisions are made when they are creating that school improvement plan, like what is what is what are their benchmarks for the year, what are their because that's where they're also going to put their resources to. And so I remember there were the words to reading leads in the building for America's choice, it was called America's choice at the time, it was a reading program. And then he basically had all the power in the school, because that's what everybody had bought into the district and bought into. And they were leading the school improvement plan with the principal and a couple of other teachers. In that first year. I said, Can I join the school improvement team? And they were like, yeah, we'll let you know. And so what I discovered was they started meeting without me and never invited me to the meetings. So I was like, Okay, well, this is how it's gonna go. So the next year, I go back and say, Can I enjoy the school improvement team? And they said, Oh, yeah, we'll let you go. So this time, I was really smart. And I had to establish some, you know, relationships on the building. And I knew somebody who was on the school improvement team, and she let me know when they were meeting. So I just showed up and said, Okay, you know, I
see you all here. Is this. My see? Thank you. Yeah,
that's exactly what happened. And I wasn't, you know, shunned away, which was why I joined the school improvement team.
Wow. So there's so many things kind of I wanted to speak to that. One. We speak to the bravery, also to illuminate being a woman. And then women of color being brave, too, because I do think bravery can look different in certain settings. You also seem to be very, like bold and persistent and found that is a strength on top of being resourceful. But also you highlight it, you knew what was your role, and you had data to back it up whether it was data from your school data about your professional identity. So that is something that I want to encourage other counselors that yes, if we just come in with our opinions, that's one conversation. But when you come in with models when you come in with actual data that really can open up a conversation with stakeholders when we want to advocate.
Absolutely. I mean, and it's in the smallest things because with this America's choice reading thing, every bulletin board, according to this model had to be aligned to standards. And it didn't matter if it wasn't our bulletin board, it was music, it was a library, it was science, it had to be aligned to these America's choice standards. And I had my own bulletin board. And they told me it had to come down. Because they said, it has to be aligned to standards. And I was like, well, I'll show you, I went and got the ASCO standards. And I put my bulletin board up and a blind it to the Aska standards. And so I was like, I, you know, I could have just in those moments, she said, Okay, well, you know, they're not gonna let me they're not including me, or they're not supporting me. But every time but, but the stakes are too high. And I think that is so important is the stakes are too high. There are kids in classrooms, who deserve deserve to have the same high quality education, and access, and support, and resources and knowledge, you know, all of that, as kids across town who had that school with a rock climbing wall. And so if, if I'm selfish, and you know, I'm human, of course, I'm going to get in my feelings. But if I'm selfish, and I'm like, Okay, well, you know, the works too hard, and I'm tired, and I'm just going to do what they told me to do. Then, I'm really, I'm really the one who's also not contributing to a system, who's creating these inequities. And that's a
hard pill to swallow. When you think that in my inaction, I can actually be complicit with a lot of these microaggressions or aggressions. I'm curious, because some of their stories definitely is what I felt in clinical mental health, did you I felt like the needs were so high and community mental health that it was I was one person and it felt overwhelming. So a doctoral program where I felt like I could help train others to also contribute to sort of this fight, seem to help me look myself in the mirror every day. Was that any part of your experience in becoming a counselor educator and getting seats and maybe some other tables as well to move beyond being a school counselor?
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I'll go back to the piece that I didn't answer to start start this one is being a woman when a woman of color, you know, it wasn't until I was on some webinar, I was talking to some folks. And did I realize that in in my entire K, through doctorate education, I've never had a teacher that look like me, ever. And I was like, you know, there's models out there, but no models that look like me. And so when I thought about that, representation matters, you know, what I see in the world and the people that look like me and are doing the things that I want to do matters. And it wasn't, if it wasn't for the mentorship that I had received, I would not have gotten my doctorate. I remember. I go that back to Dr. Stone and Dr. Schumacher, the two incredible faculty members, who within a couple years of me, you know, graduating, they're like, You need to get your doctorate. And I'm like, No, I don't think so. Like me, I already had my hands full. Right. And I and I never saw myself, so I'm not going to be in higher ed like I never saw myself. And I remember Dr. Schumacher, it was almost like she she was building it for me because I didn't know what to build in terms of my experiences and my resume, the Education Trust at a conference in Chicago. And she's like, you're going with me to present and I was like, I'm not going to a national conference, I'm presenting to you that is the most scariest thing. So this is why that is so pivotal is because I went to the Education Conference. And we were the one that first programs using data and transforming school counseling. And I did that presentation came back. And you know, I was a school counselor for five years before I came back. But it would be like every so often, like so when you're going back, you know, it's time to go back and I'd have an experience, you need to go back and get your doctorate. So finally, I hated that. And I looked at all these programs that I wanted to go to or thought I wanted to go to for my PhD. And I actually graduated from this program at UNC Charlotte. And the way it happened is I was looking at other programs and I never knew this program existed and someone's like, if you're headed back down, you know, you should stop by UNC Charlotte, UNC Charlotte. And I looked at the website and it talked about multicultural, having a multicultural focus, and I didn't see other programs at the time, explicitly saying that. And so I called up and I just It was a summer and I was like randomly like, Hi meet someone, I'm just in town. And I met with the director of the program. And I remember talking to her about my interest in urban education and, and all those things that she's like, come here. And, you know, we'd love to support you. And then it dawned on her that when they were going through their cake harbor accreditation, one of the one of the leaders of Ed trust was here on the visit and talked about transforming school counseling initiative. And so they went to the ED trust conference and went to my presentation. And they just happen to sit, you know, it was one of those serendipitous things that they were trying to think about how to create a program that aligned to supporting data and advocacy and, and all of that, and then I'm going years before, to this present this conference and presenting, and then our worlds just collided, you know, in that way. And so that that was basically my mentor, saying Sejal, you know, you need to now go and train others to do so. And I think by then I had enough, like I had experienced at the title one school, I had experience at this high school. And I thought, I'm ready. And I thought, I've, and by the time I got to the high school, I've talked a lot about my elementary, high school, high school counseling experience. That's how I got to the high school. You know, I was one of seven, seven others. And I remember, there was a school counselor, and who I, you know, of course, can't name but was the antithesis of how I was trained, and door's always shut, doesn't have time for students not proactive, you know, just and what would happen is that person's office was right across mine. So this and we know we were by alphabet. And so the students would literally just turn around and be like, can I talk to you, my counselor won't answer. And I would have to get permission from the principal, to see the students because they weren't on my caseload. And I was like, This is enough. And I just said, you know, I'm not I don't, I've seen enough of people not contributing to a professional in the way that I need to I know, there's no, there's a lot of barriers, because I experienced them. But it's almost like, again, I go back to the informed consent is, if I let you know, what you're signing up to do, and then when you sign up, and you still revert back to, then, you know, that's something that you need to sort out with yourself professionally. So when I wrote the school counseling, when I was invited by the former editors of 21st, of school counseling, the 20th century that was written by Baker and girl, or they invited me when I was at NC State to become lead author and turning into the 21st century book. And I just said, I'm gonna put in that first chapter, everything that we don't tell you about school counseling, and it was about the scheduling the non administrative duty the all the yuckiness, right, and bar none, every semester students are like, what I'm gonna have, or every year, they're like, I'm gonna have to do this, like I said, No, I'm telling you what happens when you don't advocate for yourself, and you don't advocate for your students, you're going to be relegated to these things. I said, you get to now choose your path status quo. Or I'm going to, we're going to train you in our professional professional in our preparation program, how to be leaders and advocates, and collaborate and use data and use that other pathway, creating systemic change,
while I'm also modeling it, so it's not just me in the ivory tower, telling you how to be a quote, good school counselor, your job actually shows how you collaborate, but I'm that call to action can be really moving. And then you have this collision of so many factors that now led to your part, I would love for us to talk a little bit about urban education in and of itself now that you sort of helped illuminate and make it approachable, how there can be action, and a lot of it sounds like persistence, paying attention, collecting data persistence, people who don't know about urban education, some of the needs that you're working on, how might you sort of encompass your call to really contribute to urban education
for students? Sure. So I think we have to define what urban education is and what urban environments are I think there's some misunderstandings around that. And, you know, there. I think when we think about urban, suburban and rural communities, there are some similarities. And then there's a differences. So often people ask, like, why focus on urban education, you know, because rural communities have issues too. And they absolutely do. You know, in North Carolina, where we are in Charlotte, there's a lot of surrounding rural counties, and they need a lot of support to, but just like, we can't, I can't be an expert in all things. I'm going to focus on urban education, partly because that's where my entire experience has been. And so when we think about urban environments, then there historically, they have the schools themselves have higher population. So they have higher student populations, they have higher percentage of students who are living in poverty, they have a higher percentage of students who are English language learners. So we see a lot of immigrant families moving into urban communities. And then so you see, sort of the systemic things. And then also just the, the outcomes of that are the students who have lower achievement scores, again, across reading, writing science, those areas, higher absenteeism, and then there's ideas of sometimes being in less safe communities and students been feeling what feeling less safe in schools, and then we get to the teachers, oftentimes, you'll see we'll see more teachers who are provisionally licensed or newer in urban schools. And then once they get licensed or have more experience are moving into more affluent areas. So those are the some of the context. And so and what happens is, it's it's multifaceted, you know, there are multiple layers to working in urban communities. And so what it requires of us is to really be educated in our own urban education environment. So while I know that in Jacksonville, working in the north side of Jacksonville, that's one context of an urban environment and what the population is there. And then we when I'm in Charlotte, in an urban environment, we have, you know, more immigrants. We have over 200, and something languages spoken in schools. So knowing and understanding the context of those specific urban environments is really important. And so I would say to folks that you got to do your homework on your own environment. It's just like, we say to school counselors, you got to get to know your school building, not every school buildings the same, you've got to get to know the context of who is in urban environment, because that then leads to those systemic inequities and issues that we see. And it also
sounds like it more accurately meets their need, like I just finished a study on cultural resiliency. And the data that came back consistently showed that when a mental health counselor was used, the way that they were powerful was tangible resources. And I heard you say that earlier that it was what's missing, I can talk about social emotional learning, but if the kids don't even have proper materials to do their educational piece, and so it sounds like the important part of social justice action is knowing understanding community and what they tangibly need, not just what may be most convenient or comfortable for us as counselors.
Yes. And I will say, and I'll back up, but I should have said this first, is that we have to do our own work, you know, what are our own unconscious biases? And how do we work to uncover those. And going back to my dissertation and social justice advocacy? You know, I was always fascinated by that experience in my master's program, where people were like, wanting to quit our program, or not wanting to go to work at a certain school, and I'm like, what is it about their experience and their understanding of other communities that has, you know, created fear, and I know, it's a history of racism, and all of those things. But we're choosing a profession that requires us to counsel, all you know, and not that we have to believe and value the same things, that we also are professional required to serve all students. And so that idea of social justice advocacy is uncovering our own biases getting uncomfortable, we have to learn to get uncomfortable with ourselves. And and challenge those stereotypes and challenge racist ideologies that we, you know, have just formulated over time and challenging, you know, are are assumptions about groups of people. And doing that I think exposure from my experience has been really important in doing that, that we can be in our silos that we can learn from a textbook, but not until you get out there and really are challenged. And doing that work yourself and doing a lot of proper self reflection. We do that a lot of a lot of that in our profession, the self reflection, but that's why we that's why we ask them to do that, right is to say, you've had this experience and I reflect on that and don't just do that with this is what I did, and this is what happened but how was I internally changed or challenged and how was I angry and why was I angry or why was I fearful? That's important i Based on that experience. I had our students doing video reflections because I was so tired of another reflection just being service level on on this is what I did. Just like me, I need more Yes. So back when you know is really, you know, hit to be on tick tock and all those things, I had them do video reflections and just talk to the camera, I gave them some simple prompts and just said, you know, just talk. And when they talked, they were actually more authentic about what that was. And because I think it was just something about like, it's almost like counseling that parallel process and supervision where you're really just authentically sharing your experience, you're not worried about your writing, you're not worried about your grammar, you're not worried about putting it on paper, just talk about it. So creating safe spaces, I think, also for people to put their challenges out there on the table, so we can talk about them and discuss them. And then the other thing, when I think about, you know, just starting with self and an exposure, is also being careful of that Savior mindset and coming in with a deficit. You know, base thinking is that we come in, we might have the expert content knowledge, but we don't have the expert experience knowledge. And only the folks in the community have that expert experience knowledge, and we have to talk and collaborate and work with. And you know, I might have my assumptions about what might one need, but not until I really have a conversation, and understand the community or understand the student understand the family, and what they want, should I really be taking action to I think sometimes we can just be rushing to take action, because we want to do something. And I think sometimes we have to learn to be patient, and do our research and get to know community and build trust and be seeing an ad be visible. And being part of is really important. And one of the one of the things that I had I used to have my students do is, is community asset mapping, you know, you could take a community. And even it's, and the reason I did that is because my title one school, if you look around the community, there's not a lot going on. But there are assets, you know, I found the Walgreens and found the dentists, you know, I found a local restaurant, and there are assets in the community who are willing to help you. So do an asset map and see where the strengths are in your community. And those become your resources and your partners and your allies.
I really appreciate you kind of bringing to light to the importance of entering in a community with respect and humility, that even though we as professionals come in with all this book knowledge, and maybe even some data, the importance of like meeting people where they're at and being within the group, versus just sort of talking at the group or doing things to that group. And how important that is to kind of high in a community's resilience and these kids resilience.
Yes, absolutely. With there was, there was another article I wrote with a colleague, and it was about students in this high school in the title one school in Jacksonville, who were just fed up with the narrative and the news and the community that these kids are bad, the community is bad, it's just for years, it's just been such a negative light on who they are. And they're like, you know, we want to change our narrative. And, you know, we started having them have this discourse with the principal and really challenging the principal and saying, you know, how, as a principal, can you help control our narrative out there, because we're tired of people talking about us, you know, and they're, they're really wanting, they're empowered. So let's empower them, they have, you know, strength, so let's empower them to help them resolve their own concerns and take action in their own hands, because they want to, they just won't be able to have the space to do so and the chance to do so. And so, oftentimes, of course, the developmentally appropriate one to be thinking, but even our students, you know, their, their own strengths and resource and just drawing it out of them and giving them the space and the permission to do that.
Do you have as you're sharing recommendations, recommendations and how to collaborate, I'm thinking you are an introvert. So it's not like you just love and can talk to anyone. This is something that you were very intentional about. It sounds like for people who feel more introverted, more worried, don't want to bother people, or even that it's not their place, and they're going to step on toes as they're sort of challenging these systems. Any recommendations that you have that you were able to be successful through?
Yes. I think you know, just like any other relationship is just about being relational but not going into a relationship with and just a immediate ask, right? To me that seems disingenuous. And like I think I've been really thoughtful when I became a school counselor. It was it was the relationship building. I felt very isolated being the only school counselor and it was it was a scary for me What I started to do was go to have lunch in the lounge. And I know they talk about not doing that, because you don't talk about students and you don't want to create boundaries. But I create my boundaries, I wouldn't talk about students, we would actually sit in the lounge and laugh and talk about things. And, you know, just we'd never talked about business. And if anyone tried to, I'd be like, Well, my office hours or X, you know, what we'll talk later. But starting those those relationships, you know, meeting people where they are in the lounge and those kinds of things or, you know, stopping by a teacher. And one of the other things I would do is I can I observe your class, I'm, you know, I'm going to start doing classroom guidance, and I want to learn some best practices on how to teach, and I just have come observe you and just getting in there and being visible before I ever needed to knew that I needed to go and start building collaboration. And so once, it was like, Oh, I have a major ask. It's not like, I don't know you and I don't trust you. It's like, oh, you know, I've seen you visible I've seen you try to build relationships. And mind you, I also had people shut the door in my face, literally. It's like, No, I don't want you to come, you know, like, okay. And three years later, she's asked me, Well, can you come to classroom guidance in my classroom? Like, yes, I sure can. But you start working. Yes, you know, you start with allies that you have, and know that hopefully, by others watching and others, seeing that you're going to follow through with what you're saying you're going to do, I think that's really important. Over time, people will come on board,
and what sounds like a strength of yours Dr. Boxes, you seem to be fiercely protective of this identity you have of being an advocate for your students. So where it can be easy for professionals, school counselors, to get so caught up in the admin time, it sounds like you were fiercely protective that his time was going to be allotted to student needs and what you had to do administratively. But also to make sure that you were also helping the learning environment for your students, which I feel like it's really powerful.
Thank you. Yes, you know, there's a lot of trial and error. Like I said, a lot of doors shut in my face. And, and I learned that, and this is just something an inner mantra I kind of developed for myself is to say, to those naysayers in my brain, that I'm not here to be your friend, I'm always going to be professional. I'm not here to be your friend, I'm here for the students. And I would just say that in my head all the time, I'm not here to be your friend. I'm gonna be professional. And I'm here for the students. And once I got away from that need to be liked, right? I was like, Okay, this is this is, you know, like me, it's all good, you know, but I'm here for the students.
So yeah, that is like your life purpose was your guiding light, even when it could have been easier to just want to play nice, and not that you weren't, but that you were less occupied with their impression of you. And more on what this call was? for your students? Yes,
yes, yes. Yeah. And that's what gives me a fire today, you know, is I've never lost that piece of why I'm doing what I'm doing. With every article or write or grant that I, it's still with that in mind. You know, I don't just do things randomly. It's not because it's another project or another grant or another publication is what's the purpose? And what's the meaning behind this. And hopefully, it'll inform somebody to make a decision or arm them with some data and support that they can get wet tape back to their building.
Wow. Well, as people are hopefully sitting in this inspiration about what their call is, are there any things that your collaborative initiative that you want to talk about what you guys are doing that we can kind of look out for and be excited about?
Yes, wonderful. Thank you for asking. So this collaborative, it really, really established it because number one, I wanted to I didn't see a lot of like, like a hub for our profession to house or urban school counseling work and literature and research. And so I create a space that with students or my colleagues or anyone else who is interested, can come to this space if they want to do research focus on urban communities and urban students. So with that, we do have a monthly meeting that we host and it's from Counselor Educators and Doc students and former DACA students who come and talk about their research and their interest in any support that they need, because it's also a place for that I provide mentorship for, for students to do their work and assistant professors and want to get tenure, like let's work to work together and support you. We do have some webinars that we host every now and again on a specific topic that we promote. We started as a small podcasts, nothing like what you have, but it really is taking populations for example, we have podcasts on supporting students who are homeless supporting English language learners, and it's really like our resource base, like, as a school counselor, what do you need to what is it? What is about this population? That's important? What do you need to know? And what can you do about it kind of a thing. And then we also host Lunch and Learns for for those who want any support and navigating counselor education, research and grant writing. And then also, the, the grant work pieces been something that I'm really focused on and helping to cultivate. Most recently partnered with a local organization here in Charlotte to nonprofit, they support nonprofit, other nonprofit organizations on college access work for first generation, low income students, and they needed someone to do some project evaluation, so I get to support them and offer best practices. And so we just actually started that partnership a couple of weeks ago. So the goal is to really get more into community and figure out how we can cultivate partnerships that are about really beneficial to them. In the long
run. For listeners who are interested in that resource or school counseling, what's the name of your podcast?
Is the school counseling, spotlight,
school counseling spotlight? I hope that everybody who's listening feels as inspired as I do, I feel very energized in that. And that's something I was excited to have this conversation to see how much work you did. On top of knowing the administrative just work you have to do as a faculty member. So I appreciate hearing about your path. And then also this charge Do you have that didn't discourage you, when it sounds like there could have been a lot of doors that were closed, a lot of feelings hurt, it didn't discourage you for sort of this life mission that you have in that now you're sharing with so many collaborators?
Yes, I often say to students, I have the best job in the world. I'm so privileged and just I'm really just honored to do what I do every day. It is not easy. You know, we know it's hard work every single day that we do and it's tiring. But at the end, I feel like you know if we as counselors can just be mindful of the fact that you know, we are and we can make a difference in our communities, those challenges that come our way. Let's you know, get through these barriers however we need to and keep keep just keep it moving.
Thank you so much. Dr. Sejal Fox for speaking with us today. And this is another episode of the thoughtful counselor. The thoughtful counselor is DISA Daniel, Raisa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Taylor,
Desi Diane Ananias ATAR. And me, Megan speciality. Find us online at the thoughtful counselor.com. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concepts. The views and opinions expressed on the thoughtful counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors. More of our sponsor, Palo Alto University. So if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at the thoughtful counselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.
