Neurodiversity in the workplace (HR Webinar) HR Recruit

Bradley Boldt59min

Speaker 100:08

Today's webinar about neuro diversity. My name is Amy McLeod and I'm consultant from HR recruit. And I'm joined today by Robin Watson employment solicitor from Lacey solicitors. Robin has a lot to cover in today's webinar. And we'll be sharing his knowledge around neurodiversity, and what to consider in the workplace and practical tips and ideas. We're going to pass you over, there will be an opportunity to ask questions in the chat box at the end. Okay, Robin, over to you.

Speaker 200:35

Thanks, Amy. And thanks also for your for your help organizing this. So I'm told that we could be about 115 before us because I can't see anybody. So I'll just have to believe that. And that's wonderful. If there is, it doesn't surprise me because with HR, I think if you mentioned Disability Discrimination updates or anything like that, I think we all know, that's probably one of the biggest things we tend to fear quite often. And if you add neurodiversity in there, I can fully understand why it's something that people are interested in, which is great. But it also means I don't know what experience there is in this virtual room. So what I've tried to do is pitch this as best I can to all levels, I'm failing, where there are HR directors here who have Master's experience that's far more than me in dealing with this, and I know everything I want to update, but there may be some Junior ones who are fresh to this. I think if nothing else, and if you know everything, put your feet up and have a blast for an hour and a bit and remind yourself that you're fantastic at what you do. If is anything else, I think just try and take one thing away from this. And they thought one thing like me when I do this a few years ago now is really about broadening your mind and broadening the way you look at HR and the way you deal with people. And a couple of stories I relate to you from from a real life experience. And the reason why this is a subject, which I think he's, I would say is something that we all need to be very aware of. I think it is something as big as mental health. I think it's underplayed. And I think neuro divergence, and we'll come on to those different terminologies plays a far bigger part in our HR world with our people that we look after and manage than we realize. And there are many reasons for that. So one thing I'm passionate about is two or two things. One is HR and employment law and Reiki QA on the other side of it is is the neurological side and personal personality side to HR, what we do, because we are people, we manage people, we lead people and protect businesses and things that go wrong. And neurodiversity, I think is really, really important. So hopefully, in the next 45 minutes or so I'll be able to say concede and say that when you think about this, or did you consider this, and I'm just hoping like me, they'll be suddenly say, Well, I didn't think of that. But actually, I'm gonna go and learn about that or change the way I might view something, we have a lot to get through. So I'm gonna do my very best we are skimming the surface, as you probably expect, I make no apologies. This, I would probably do in a full day's course at a hotel room with tea and biscuits and lunch. But we're wrapping this in 45 minutes. So I'm deliberately skipping over some things. But there's always opportunity with my contact details there. If you want to talk more, or think about something wrong or disagree, that's absolutely fine. All you have to do is email me and we can talk further via email, all of the information you need will be sent out in a few days time. So I'll be sending the links, and the q&a. And hopefully, we'll be sending those out as a cut and paste. And I'll be answering those in more detail as we go along. In the next few days, you should have everything you need, including the links. So you can literally just sit and listen. And if anything comes to mind, please jot it down. And it's anything you want to know more about, please jot it down and do so. And so just in case, you're wondering, who's this clown stuck in front of me what gives him the right to talk to me a little bit about me. So I work for laceys. I'm a partner in the employment team and I had an employment thing there. And predominantly, we act for employers. And we help people like yourselves from all HR levels from HR, middle up to HR D level. And we help older businesses as well develop and deal with HR issues and go along with that can be day to day problems. But also, we deal with the big stuff, we deal with claims, disability discrimination, and all the discrimination claims as well. We deal with individuals and we help individuals. So I'm able, maybe not with what you can't, but I can put two different hats on this. So I can look from a claiming solicitor perspective as what I might be looking at as a claimant lawyer, or I might be looking at from the respondent side of things for the employer and what comes to mind. So everything I'm saying to you today is deliberate. And it's based upon my own experience what I think I want to tell you, and it should help you. So there is a lot to cover.

Speaker 204:39

He says trying to hurry up so quickly for us to wake up. So there's a bit of a menu there that we're gonna go through. We do have to do a bit of revision, I'm afraid. So this is the revision part for most of us suspect on disability discrimination. And that's simply because when we talk about neurodiversity, the reason we're talking about it is twofold one to give you a positive stance to take away and to remind you or give you something fresh to look at. But the negative side of it is, is to be careful. And the warning I give to all HR clients now, since about 2017, I think it is. All employment tribunal cases are now listed online. Anybody can go in search the employer or the employee, and they can see employment tribunal decisions and employment Appeal Tribunal decisions. And there's no wish to scare you. I'm sure you know this. But one thing I say to people is remember you could be named, it's going to be very rare. If I'm advising the employer or employee that I wouldn't be calling not only the decision making process, but also the HR person who was advising the HR person who was involved, I want to know what they were thinking as well and doing them are not telling me but it's worth asking. So remember that, because we will get pressures in HR. And there are pressures just to get on with it, as we're told don't, we can't you just dismiss them, can't just get rid of them. Let's press on and get the business focus, we're gonna remember we Yes, but also we're professionals. And we've got to follow the law. Because end of the day, we could be named in a case. And I say that to scare you. It's just the reality of where we live in. So we've been looking at the key aspects of disability discrimination. We're looking at neurodiversity. And I can tell you now there is no one accepted universal definition. We'll be going through a couple of those. And I said at the start, when I did this, first of all was is there a problem in the workplace, which is quite negative, is a positive problem in the workplace that we're missing. Because I want to be positive about this and encourage you to look into this more in your workplaces, looking at best practice to avoid claims. And that's generally Disability Discrimination claims, but it fits nicely with neurodiversity as well, occupational health friend and foe, I have my own views, generally speaking, I'm sure you do as well. Sometimes they're not particularly helpful with neurodiversity. neurodivergent individuals, I could be wrong. But the perhaps assumptions are not as confident as we are, in trying to in trying to help us with that, because it's very broad. Workplace toolkits, is something that I want to share with you. And that's really passporting. So it's about passports and people, and giving them a plan of how they can be communicated with what works for them, what are they worried about, with their conditions, couple of recent cases, there are numerous cases on that to do with all sorts of neuro diversity issues, but I'll just add to one very recent one, which you should read, we're looking at making a positive step towards inclusivity. And practical tips and ideas. There's a lot to cover. So I'm gonna whisk through it, as in depth as I can. But let's start with our disability discrimination. But we all know that you can't discriminate against an employee or job applicant, we can stop there. But we go further with the types of claims that can arise. As you all know, we have positive discrimination positive action, which is allowed in favor of a disabled job applicants or employees, so we can treat disabled people more favorably, that is not discriminatory against them or those who aren't disabled. But other than that, we know that discrimination is unlawful at the top of the scale of harm, if you like, and that's thing as a lawyer I look at is what potentially we're dealing with, because direct discrimination under Section 13, the Equality Act is probably the most harmful. Because that cannot be justified, there is simply no lawful excuse for that there is one but that's out there, we won't deal with that today, the generally speaking of dire discrimination is in play, it's going to hurt. Because essentially, what's happening here is you want to say you your employers, or clients are discriminating against somebody because they have a disability simply because of that disability. And that's a serious claim. And that can be many 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of pounds, it's quite rare. In my experience, many claimants will say that big direct discriminated against, but actually what then it comes down to is maybe indirect discrimination under Section 19. And that's simply where you are applying a practice criterion or a policy, keep it as policies easy to understand. And by applying it, you are indirectly discriminated against those with a disability, or other protected characteristics, but affliction disability here. So it's having more of an impact on those with a disability or shared disability and you cannot objectively justify it. Okay, so this is defense to these following ones. And that's objective justification of proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. We can't cover that today. If you are confused, and you've not done talking about drop me an email, I can send you some things to help you.

Speaker 209:13

One that can be missed sometimes, and this sometimes happens with with lawyers as well actually with a section 15 arising from claim and it was neons with equality didn't exist before. And that's where a claim happens because it's based on something that arises as a consequence of disability. And typically that might be dismissing for poor attendance due to the disability. And sometimes that people say what isn't that indirect discrimination? We yes or no, because these two tend to tack together and they're pleaded to the tribunal and the alternative, but it's as a consequence, something arising out of disability will be absence from work due to disability, and that can be a claim under Section 15. So be careful of that one as well. We know if someone is disabled and if they are disabled, as we'll see shortly, then there's a duty or might be duty to make money. adjustments. And remember, it's a might, I think there's a tendency for us all to jump straight on and say we must make reasonable adjustments. Yes, we must. But it's not every single adjustment. And we can see shortly where we're gonna get that help to make that decision with us. But if you don't make a reasonable adjustment, it may not be a straightforward clean if there's no substantial disadvantage, as rather than wouldn't be in my view, but there are two prompts to that the duty to make them in the first place. And if not, the employees places a substantial disadvantage. To more that always get brought into discrimination claims and will be I think, with neuro diversity as well, just by the way this works is harassment. So harassment, generally speaking, could be nicknames. It could be jokes, it could be pulling somebody's leg. And you'll see maybe that could arise with the autistic spectrum when someone simply isn't getting what was looking something in a very literal way. And you might even put in there like you might get managers to get frustrated and start making jokes. And that can amount to harassment and victimization is easily missed. But that can happen because somebody made a complaint, they made a claim, and you then do something to their detriment, because they've done that. And that might be a bad reference. It might be causing them detriment because they dare to make a grievance or to make a claim against you, or the company you work for. Okay. Pre employment questions is something I get a bee in my bonnet about I'm frequently given horror stories and see them from clients about some of the health questions that HR ask, and I'm sure it's none of you. I talk about HR, I include myself in that, because I should have said first actually, until fairly recently, I was obviously solely responsible for the HR within the firm in which I work. And so I have been on sort of the table with you. So so I know what it's like. And I know the pain as well. But health questions is something that it does bug me because I think there's a tendency to send out very bland and standard questions. But you do need to think about this from a GDPR perspective and employment law perspective. Why are you asking? What is it you need to know? And when I do this, I simply think about what's the role? What's the health consequences, the implications? And then I go on to ask the questions, there is a danger and a risk potentially, there could also be a benefit in asking standard questions and see what comes back. But just be careful. So we're talking about someone with a disability. And we know that the Equality Act gives us that definition. It's somebody who has a physical or and mental impairment. And the impairment has a substantial and long term effect on their ability to carry out normal day to day activities. So we are asking for questions of ourselves. And this is something I will send out to you as a little reminder and a memoir. When you're dealing with this or have a grievance or disciplinary and disability is coming up. These four questions are really gonna fine tune for you. Does the person you're dealing with has a physical or mental impairment. Remember Diem disabilities, Ms cancer, HIV, and severe disfigurements their automatic disabilities. So there's simply no need to investigate this further. Does the impairment have an adverse effect on their ability to carry out normal day to day activities? And we'll see what that might mean in a minute. And is that effect substantial, and the Equality Act tells us that is more than minor or trivial, and five years that affect long term, and we know that's going to be either more than 12 months are likely to last more than 12 months? Okay.

Speaker 213:23

Sickness absence dismissals, generally speaking, can be one of the most risky. And as an advisor, what I tend to get is the dismissal that's just about to happen, or has happened, and I get the papers shut down being said, Can you deal with that? And one of the most frustrating things, and I see it more often is out of date medical reports, even from very big employers, and big HR teams were simply no one's address their mind to thinking, what decision are we making on what evidence because your own reports and your expert reports, my view shouldn't be any more than three months old if you're making significant decisions. And we just had a fantastic case literally, wherever in our six days ago, Judge Taylor and employment Appeal Tribunal, he said this as a case to read. And that will also show you why it's very dangerous to rely on outdated medical evidence. So current evidence on condition and prognosis is really, really important. I'm gonna skip over recent adjustments, all everything to say on that, of course, it's not every single adjustment, and you've got to go through a process to engage with the individual about why they think they need this adjustment. And it is a two way street. I think. As a lawyer, I will say to claimants and employees, it's a two way thing. It's a compensation. It shouldn't be the employee keeps quiet and used to just the recent adjustments. It's a two way street and you'll see what neuro diversity and passports how that might be a good way to look at it. And there are always alternatives to look at anything I would say on this is whenever you're making significant decision, especially dismissal, just think about alternatives. What else can I do apart from dismiss this individual? Okay. Hopefully that was revision for you all, but there is a great Rounding for that. And I want you to just remember as we go through the next 40 minutes or so as to why I've talked about that, two things, wanting to think about how you deal with people in your own organization, even in your teams. And secondly, what you would do if a claim came in or someone said, I got autism, I've got dyslexia and I think I've been discriminated against or I've got a grievance to make. I just think about how you reflect on that, because you should be going back to the law, always the law is our friend and can guide us but of course, we get it wrong. And because there are many bear traps in it so hard but out of the way. So now we can relax and talk a bit more freely, in a bit more relaxed way about neurodiversity. There is no one considered accepted, accepted definition of what neuro diversity is. There are plenty out there to give you a couple of examples. So the brain charity says that neuro diversity is simply saying that each person has a brain that is unique to them. No two brains are quite alike. And for a million people in the UK, these differences mean that they are diagnosed with a condition such as autism, hgtc hdhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia, or another neurological condition, a case in a very hurtful research paper, I think it's 2015. They did this, but I will send this out for you to look at. So this neurodiversity refers to the different ways the brain can work and interpret information. It highlights that people naturally think about things differently. And we have different interests, different motivations, and are naturally better at some things, and probably the others. I think anybody who disagree with that, were fascinated on this subject, is when your diversity in the different ways people think, interpret information, and interpret other people's communication is where that fits into things like disciplinaries grievances, because I'm pretty convinced I could be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced where you have personality clashes, people just can't be managed, quote, unquote, it's possible. There's someone on there, that person might be neurodivergent. And when we talk about neurodivergent people, we're simply saying that they have or could have a diagnosis of one of the neurodivergent conditions. And he says, There we are. So there is an example that's not all of them. Maybe some of the top ones are plenty more ones that people tend to know about. I've heard of autism, people might say something's on the spectrum, ADHD is calculator, and we'll look at these in a second dyslexia. epilepsy surprised me, I must admit, I didn't realize epilepsy was considered as a neurodivergent. issue. Developmental language disorder, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, Tourette's and tic disorders. So there are always surprises for me, which is just fascinating subject, because it deals with neurology and how people interact with each other. So as I say, these aren't all of them. But there are some great information out there. And certainly, if you get some of the autism toolbox, which I can share these with you, there's some great information education, and education is really key, as I should be saying frequently. So if we look at just gonna pick three, three, or four, for ones that I think might come up,

Speaker 218:04

autism, and this is a classic, where people talk about someone being on the spectrum. And whether they are or they not is a matter of for medical people decide really. And I've chosen a very independent if I can, symptom list, because I know there are different views on one thing I would say is I don't pretend to be an expert in any of this, I have an interest in it. And I've experienced in it from an employment law perspective. So people with autism might find it hard to communicate and interact with other people. But in our jobs, we do that, don't we, unless you have a job that's very insular. find it hard to understand what people think or feels a lack of empathy won't be an issue. might feel overwhelmed by bright lights and loud noises and find this stressful, uncomfortable, get anxious or upset about unfamiliar situations, take longer to understand information, and do the same things over and over and over. I don't know about you, but when I when I do this research, and I do these talks, I keep thinking about people I work with. And I keep thinking, Ah, that's interesting, or cases that I've dealt with where there was a conflict or a clash. And I just wonder how many undiagnosed issues there are in neurodiversity, ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And Gemini kids are categorized into two problems, or issues and attentiveness and hyperactivity, and impulsiveness. There's a whole list there. Look at that. That's from the NHS, and there may be many more, but from the workplace scenario, from our perspective, lack of attention to detail, you might have a manager having a problem, you know that this person just doesn't get it. They keep they keep making mistakes, poor organizational skills, and that's me, inability to focus on prioritized misplacing things, mood swings, irritability, and you can see where these clashes happen in this case law progresses and employment tribunals and neuro diversity becomes further the list. I think we're seeing more and more than your individual issues coming out and being recognized. dyslexia is fairly common, and I think we would all probably know that that means that somebody may have an issue or problem with using some words or phrases or letters and getting their own way around that. Can't be poor inconsistent spelling. And in fact, the opposite of this when I manage somebody who had dyslexia is so that they understand information when told verbally but difficulty when it's written down, she was the opposite she needed a written down because you need to stand up verbally. And that's really where this story started for me having to deal with sort of manage somebody with dyslexia, which is fascinating. And this calculator is the numbers part of that to somebody who may just have a problem with numbers. And there's there's a really key word there are two key words mathematics, anxiety. And you'll see the word anxiety when you more more you research this can come up more often than not, when we think of things like meltdowns, or breakdowns, or timeout and that sort of thing where people with these neurodivergent issues can lead that because of anxiety. And I'm going to show you a video, it's done with the BBC hoping this is gonna work. So the BBC have a fantastic department and a resource, you can Google it and find yourself play will In the meantime, send it out to you soon as I can. And they did a video as a gaming video and I want to share something with you. I'm going to break it at some point. But what I suggest you do is put your earphones on or turn the volume up. It's done as a game like an old sort of Pac Man style guy, but it gives you an idea of what someone with a neurodivergent diagnosis might feel about just coming into a normal office that many of us might be coming back to fairly shortly so bear with me one second. Let's hope it's gonna work. I mean, I did test this and all as well.

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