Hey, this is David Rovics, with another episode of discussions with David. And rather than actually giving you my own introduction of today's guest, I just want to talk to Matthew and, and let his story unfold as we go. Because I think that would be much more interesting. And
Hopefully, right, hopefully.
And Matthew and I have been in touch, mostly, by just by email, I guess for many years. We did meet briefly, quite a long time ago now. 2005 I guess it was.
And it's been a minute.
Yeah, it's been a minute and in the life of a somewhat younger man, it's even longer because you were in high school back then. I was already well into adulthood. But, Matthew, what you did you grew up in Indiana, did you?
Well, I ended up living for many years in Indiana. I grew up in Maryland, small town called Poolesville, that to this day still doesn't have a traffic light. And Poolesville is a very interesting place because it was a traditionally small like Southern town when you think of Maryland generally think southern. But throughout my life, it's really changed into being one of the kind of like Northern Virginia one of just the suburbs of DC, as high rents and things like that forced more and more of the DC professionals out so Poolesville was always kind of a weird place to grow up, like people would show up to my high school and hit their horn and Dixie would play. And then you've got the sons and daughters of you know, engineers and lobbyists and stuff like that go to the same school. So it was an interesting place to grow up.
In especially particularly interesting in terms of the years that you grew up there because I assume that probably before your childhood, it was not so much a suburb of DC it really was its own little Virginia town, right. And then it became more of a suburb of DC in the course of your lifetime?
Yeah. So the small little museum we have in Poolesville, the town was called the most treasonous town in the entire South by the Union officer that was in charge of the garrison. And a lot of like the roads like I grew up on, one of the roads that was named for a town father that was also a Confederate Raider, back during the war. So that's, you know, the history of 150 years ago, and Poolesville was featured, not so gloriously in the early 1950s, and a Time magazine spread, fighting integration. And if you go to like the Civil Rights Museum, there's pictures from Poolesville, which usually don't think small town, Maryland, you think Mississippi or Alabama for those sorts of things. And a lot of those pictures of kids picketing the integrated school. You know, we're older, obviously, by the time I grew up, and so it was definitely an old school southern town that when I was born, was kind of in flux, and has been changing ever since. But there was definitely kind of like a culture clash. Like when I when I was a kid, we were called the Poolesville Indians was our local town mascot. And it was a huge fight. And that was actually like my introduction to any sort of politics of race or anything like that. Where like that county came down on Poolesville for having that name. And it was a big fight for years. And even when I went to high school, people would still show up to you know, varsity basketball games and their Poolesville Indians jerseys that were at that point 10 or 15 years old. So it it was definitely interesting and set me up for a lot of different different inputs as I was growing up.
Yeah, that's lots of different inputs there. And you actually, I know, I'm skipping ahead here, but you actually have a degree in history, incidentally. I mean, when you mentioned the Civil War and stuff, and, it's yeah, history. And so then when all the yuppies started moving in all the government workers and stuff, did this create? Was this a real source of tension? And did it cause rents to go up and that sort of thing was a big issue for for the folks that were more the original Poolsvillians Poolsvillains?
Well, yeah, like my, my grandparents had bought 40 acres in a small farm outside of town before I was born. And they did a small amount of raising like hogs and chickens and things like that. And that's, that's when Poolseville, it was more traditional. And now they're building developments right now. When I went back to visit and they're their million dollar homes and things like that. So I know for myself, due to my political trajectory, I'm not in touch with a lot of people I went to school with, who disagreed with my views at the time, but I don't know anyone that I grew up with that still lives in Poolesville, because they can't afford it. And Montgomery County in general, is a very weird place because where I lived was in part of what was known as the agricultural reserve. So they couldn't build all the infill of the places to the other part of the county. But even so, rents have gone up, mortgages have gone up, building condos next to the elementary school that was a small horse farm, when I was a kid, now they've got, you know, $400,000 condos. So, I don't honestly know anyone that I grew up with, or was, you know, ahead of me in school or behind me in school that still lives there. Because they just can't afford it, you know?
Yep. sounds very much like the town I grew up in, incidentally. I mean, in that sense, but then, this is a question I actually wouldn't necessarily ask of a lot of people. But given that you have a degree in history, tell me about your family history and like, your parents, but also I imagine, given that you have a degree in history, you probably know more about that your family background going further back. And I think that's always interesting to ask people who actually know, say, like, Oh, I'm not sure my grandpa was Irish. I don't know where, you know, but, yeah.
Yeah, sure. Well, unfortunately, for the members of my family, the Heimbach clan, from Germany, not very many of us came over. And most of them settled in Pennsylvania, where my dad's from in and around the Reading area. So I do feel bad for all the Heimbachs that, you know, it's not like my last name was Smith. You know, Smith pops up in the news. And it could be like the anyone Heimbach pops up. It's not a very common name. But yeah, my family came from Germany on my dad's side. My mom's side is, is Irish, with a little bit of English. And they've been here since since dirt, essentially. Originally, parts of North Carolina, where, where my ancestors, for the most part, were drafted and fought in the Civil War. And after everything was basically destroyed. In Knox County and the surrounding areas, some of them moved out to Iowa, and others ended up in Maryland. And, you know, eventually, my parents met, they were both teachers, educated conservatives. My dad was a Lutheran, my mom was a Catholic. And they ended up having me and my two siblings. So that was always kind of interesting thing, like I was raised with knowing kind of where I came from. Not in any sort of, you know, people, people always think like, if you get involved in radical politics, like, you must have been taught this, like, you must have been been raised in a way to be a white nationalist. It must be your parents fault, your grandparents fault. And like, it wasn't like my family. You know, I remember back right when I was getting into your music, when the Iraq War had just started. And I remember very clearly my grandfather sitting down and saying he supported the Patriot Act, because, you know, President Bush knows what he's doing. And if you don't have anything to hide, like, you know, you should just support America. Race wasn't really talked about, just like conservative, kind of working up, you know, middle class sort of conservative Christian upbringing. That was, you know, we definitely didn't have a lot of money and maybe got to go on, you know, a long weekend to the beach, you know, once a year or something like that, but definitely not like traumatic or anything as people usually assume. You know, I've been asked over the years many times and it's like, no, I grew up in a pretty quote unquote normal upbringing.
Normal but on the conservative and religious side of normal yeah?
Yeah. So that's kind of how I start getting into politics which you know, some some teenagers get into heavy metal music others you know, start wearing you know, all black and stuff like that. And I was just surrounded by like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, you know, go to church every Sunday sort of thing. So I was like, I'm gonna read the Communist Manifesto. I'm gonna start start reading anarchist stuff, because like I remember it was a huge scandal. My My uncle was dating a gal who eventually became my aunt. And they had a Kerry sticker on their car in 2004. And that was like a family scandal. So I was like, You know what, what's the real way to push back against my parents and and then you end up reading a bunch of communist stuff
Go much further to the left than Kerrry and then you got it. Yeah.
Exactly. If this makes them upset then this will be even better.
There's some good teenage thinking. So then you read the Communist Manifesto, which is the most eloquent thing that Marx ever wrote, everything else is so obtuse but that one was really easy reading you know Engles. I also thought was a really really good accessible writer unlike Marx but other people have done things with Marx that are more accessible than the original, I always I guess I feel guilty still for not having read Das Kapital.
Well, I tried when I was like 14 or 15. And I was like, I guess I'm just not hard enough, you know?
No, neither are mostly adults. The overwhelming majority. Yeah, the economists do pretty well with it, though. I guess they have to be required reading. You can't get a degree in economics without having gotten given that a good hack at it. Right. I guess...
I'm willing to bet a few of them have used the SparkNotes edition though.
So then, you got into politics. And you started out with with far left politics, it's fair to say. But then, if you went looking for any actual people doing that kind of politics on the ground, it's a lot harder to find in, especially in suburban Virginia than it is to find a good book in the library from Marx. Right?
Well, exactly. And so what ended up happening to kind of bring us into our first point of meeting is, I had a friend of mine, who, you know, he was liking these ideas, and we were talking about them and stuff like that, thinking we'd solved all the problems in the world, as most teenage boys, you know, think that they have everything figured out. But his sister was involved in like a Democratic socialist group at the University of Maryland. So I'd become familiar with your work along with like Phil Ochs, Pete Seeger, I mean, all the, you know, the traditional, like left wing folk singers. So we went and got her to drive us. And I think that was during your Halliburton boardroom massacre tour, if my memory's righ,. Which, I don't have the t shirt I bought any more, but I had it for like 10 years until there was nothing left on it. Which was a lot of fun. But that's when I got connected with kind of like college leftists and I was really excited. And I was really gung ho. And one of the times one of the guys, older, just very, like stereotypical kind of hippie college student on the left. And he was like, "You need to read this book called Settlers." And I was like, Okay, well, I read lots of books, I like books. So I got it. And you know, essentially, the thesis of the book is that the white proletariat doesn't exist, like, at all. And white folks, in general, like, are not so much part of a class struggle. Like, we're almost like, inherently bad. I mean, it's a very long book. And I'm sure we could do like a three hour like dissection of it. But so I'm like, 15, at the time, and I come back, and I say, like, you know, my parents, like, I went to Catholic school for the first, you know, like three years of my schooling, but they couldn't afford it anymore. So I went to public school, like my mom had to go back into the workforce. We grew up in a very modest home, like, I didn't think I was part of the problem. And I was here trying to be part of the solution. And they were like, well, you know, your, privilege and like, you really don't. Have you read the book? And I was like, Well, I read the book, but you're telling me, I literally don't have a space here to solve these problems, like the beginning of the war on terror, or income inequality and stuff like that. And I said, Well, if you if you guys don't want me, then I'm gonna go off and find somewhere where I can be on my own side. And so about the time I turned like, 16, 17, that's when I really started to dip into what you could call the far right. Like, I'd like to say I made a really earnest effort to be on the left, and they were like, sorry, we're full.
They're like, sorry, we're only interested in identity politics, and we have no room for the class war. And we have no class analysis. That plagues the working, the white working class.
Well, yeah. And you know, they were like, well, you know, are you LGBTQ? And I was like, Well, no, I'm, I'm a straight, white, Christian teenager, but I still care about these things that are happening in the world. And you know, people are a little less excited at that point. And that is what pushed me to where I was like, well, if I don't have a place here, I've got a, you know, I think most young people want to find a place and like, if you ever read the book, Bowling Alone, you know, the analysis of the breakdown of American community, like whether you're a teenager or grown adult, like the the real sense of any sort of identity, community, connection with other human beings has just broken apart due to capitalism. So I was like, well, I'm gonna find my place and then you end up you know, ordering Mein Kampf off off Amazon, and it's off to the races.
Mm hmm. So Mein Kampf was the next step. How how did that work, though? I mean, how did that? What was the process that led you to Mein Kampf from meeting those really annoying, privileged, middle class college students, pseudo leftists?
Well, I'd read in a book about the rise of the Third Reich and Joseph Gurbles had said the separation between Marxism, and the Hitler faith is very slight. And I was like, well, how could that be? And of course, at the time he was, you know, the essay was an, you know, a working class movement. And they were trying to appeal to the the German communists to bring them over at the time. But and...
People forget when we're talking, I mean, just butt in for a moment. We're talking about national socialism, which is, and you may have.. Did you come across that term? And you thought, Oh, this is socialism? It's a type of socialism was that part of the, I don't want to put thoughts in your head, but I'm just...
No, no, it was and then also, I mean, I'll have to say there was part of me that kind of felt a little burned and whatnot. And so being a leftist is one thing. But what is the absolutely edgiest position you can possibly take and all of American politics and it's Hitler did nothing wrong. Like you take that position, you are to the edgiest of the edge of like flamboyant styles, right and and I'd grown up like I think we all watched, like all those History Channel documentaries, you know about the the neo Nazi movement and the Klan and stuff like that. So remember the HBO documentary from the early 90s Skinheads- Soldiers of the Race War, which were like, on one hand, these guys were like, kind of goofy. But for being, like so goofy, they're not having a lot of resources, obviously, they were pushing people's buttons. So like, I think part of it was like, this is a kind of a dangerous, edgy thing to get into. But then also, as you mentioned, ideologically, like, I'm looking at the time, I'm reading socialist literature, and if I'm being told that, like, I can't be on my own community side, or even like, be be an activist, if I don't fit into these identity groups, the only logical thing for me then to do is to be a socialist, who's fighting for my own identity group of which National Socialism filled that void.
Right?
Well...
It just seemed like a perfectly sensible thing in terms of the whole idea of socialism for for somebody that's being rejected by the people that call themselves socialists...
Essentially.
And so, where are you? Where are you? Are you aware that the Sex Pistols used to wear swastikas on their armbands to upset everybody?
Yeah,it's an edgy position, you know?
Yeah, it's very edgy position, even though they were never really ideologically connected to fascist thinking, they did that just to piss people off, as far as I could tell, it wasn't ever reflected in their music, as you know, I mean, in terms of, but yeah, that must have upset a lot of people.
Well, and just to jump briefly forward in the timeline, like something that I'd found out, I'd read the book Hate, which is about George Lincoln Rockwell in the American Nazi Party. And it's not an ideological, it's a history book. And it's fascinating. And it taught me a lot because like, Rockwell, I think is a very complex character. You know, he served in World War Two, he gets back, and he wants to advocate for his positions. And no one pays attention to him for a very long time. But as soon, like the Sex Pistols, as soon as he put a swastika on and when they named the American Nazi Party wasn't the American National Socialist Party, but like, what was the punchiest way to get through the media, you know, blackout that. Like I found out as an activist that I could go to, like, when we would hold rallies in like Kentucky, or Tennessee or West Virginia, if we're talking about the opioid epidemic, unemployment, globalization, capitalism, in general, no one cares. But as soon as you slap a National Socialist label on it, the entire world media is there. And it's not just for like ego stroking or stuff like that, it then gives you the opportunity to talk about the ideas and get that message out there. And that's what Rockwell did in the 1960s. And that was an incredibly successful model for me as an activist.
Mm hmm. And then talk about what what was the experience like, once you really became fairly known as a far right, activist?
Well, my family stopped talking to me, pretty much entirely. I mean, I haven't seen my father in over like a decade at this point, or close to a decade.
And your father, you described politically as socially politically, would you say basically a conservative Republican Christian, still today? Yeah. So so if I mean if he were, so if you had become a radical left winger, that wouldn't be much of an improvement over a radical right winger for him, from his perspective, necessarily.
Probably, but I mean, something you know, as I kind of look back over the years, my dad really strived for a long time to be respectable. And I think that one thing that also drove me a lot, that like middle class, he went back to school and got his master's and his masters plus 30. And he worked to climb the ladder of being a teacher, to be an athletic director, to do and all these sorts of things to be respectable. Because his father passed away when he was very young, his mother was a nurse- works, you know, was basically just always working right, to take care of him and his sisters. And I don't think he ever wanted to return to that kind of like crushing working class poverty that he came from. So he was even striving to be respectable in society. And that really always just like, turned me off, because it just seems so empty. It's like, well, you're not here to see my soccer game, because you're taking another class that you don't need to take, or whatever. Not to make it all about my dad, right? We can all get Freudian with this. But um, yeah, I think if I'd become like, just a radical far leftist, and was, you know, getting arrested at like the G8 summit or something, that would have gotten him in trouble. And, you know, in his work, so he would have turned it down, probably because respectability is really the the ultimate currency, I think, in American culture for a certain class of people.
And respectability. I mean, you know, not to make too many assumptions here about respectability for somebody who had a working class background and maybe financial difficulties historically, and also, perhaps someone with a German last name in your maybe not your dad's but your grandparents generation. I mean, I'm just wondering, like, I think there's a lot of aspects to respectability, and why people need to be respectable. And they don't want to be, they don't want to stick out for a lot of different reasons. There's so many reasons why people don't want to stick out. And it's a lot of self protection, right?
Yeah, I think so. I mean, because, especially with no fallback, really, with no sense of community. I mean, even if you're a member of a church, it's not the way it was, or part of a civic group or things like that. So you're really on your own. I mean, American culture right now, everyone is essentially an island unless you're a part of like, a religious cult, or certain subcultures and things like that. But your average person is really alone. So you're just constantly forced to strive and climb in a way that I think is really unhealthy and dangerous, and very empty, because you're always forced to keep climbing, to keep up with the Joneses. And you're never going to get to that top tier. It's just, it's like an escalator.
And then when you also at some point, realize that when you're climbing and you're competing with the Joneses, ultimately, who you're really competing with is the lowest paid, most marginalized members of our society, right? If you're, especially if you're doing any kind of work that puts you in competition with undocumented people or with marginalized people, then, as somebody, a labor organizer, I interviewed recently said, if you're moving to a new state, and you're wondering how much you're going to be paid in your industry, look up how much the average Black worker makes on that job. And that's how much you'll be making. Yeah, yeah,
I agree. And that's the thing, we're traditionally an American culture, like going back 400 years, you know, the way that systems of capitalism are able to be maintained, is that there's a very tall ladder. And there's only two rungs for working class people. And in some cases, the white working class is given one rung up. And they're told, I mean, Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers, I think, explain this the best that you know, the the white working class and the white middle class, which most of them are still members, the proletariat are terrified of any sort of revolutionary change, or organizing, or sticking their nose up, or upsetting the applecart because they don't want to be knocked down one rung, and everyone knows they're not going to get any rungs higher. And that allows these systems of oppression for everyone. It affects everyone, because they're up there, and we're down here. But people don't want to get knocked down that one rung. So they're willing to accept the status quo of the economy and American politics.
Absolutely. When did you start to figure that out? And I mean, I want to, before skipping ahead, there, let's talk. Let's stay a little more in the white nationalist space here. And where you were occupied for many years, it's many years now. It was until, what, five years ago?
Oh, no. I mean, I got out officially a year ago,
Only one year ago, when you wrote me that email. It was really right then. Wow. Yeah. And by the time you wrote me that email, you had clearly done a hell of a lot of processing already, because that was an extremely articulate, very left wing email, I'd say. If we're going to use these kind of bait, you know, these, I hate the phrases left wing and right wing, so I just use them for convenience. They're terrible. Nobody has a good definition of what they mean and it's really better if we use other terms, but we're kind of stuck with these to some extent. I mean, it's shorthand, but that's the way words are basically, you know, to some extent, they're problematic things. But so then when you're in this movement, your parents, you've lost touch with both your parents at that point, and basically been alienated by family friends at this point. And then you were finding a new community?
Yeah. And that's a really good way to explain it. So I got involved in an organization called Youth for Western Civilization, which really was the the nucleus of what became known as the alt right. Pretty much all of the organizers that that were a part of it ended up you know, they're either currently working for V Dare, they're American Renaissance, or spread out. The Wolves of Vinland is a pagan, white nationalist, cult, like religious group that has a compound or several compounds around the United States. So from Youth for Western Civilization, it was, you know, that's kind of where I really got my first introduction into ideological fascism. And I was being educated. But of course, on the surface, we were to be conservatives. We were to be edgy conservatives, but still conservatives. Where, you know, the first time I threw up a Roman salute, and said, Sieg Heil was at a Youth for Western Civilization event. In private, of course, and I was being you know, I want to say indoctrinated, because at that time, I'm 17, 18 years old. But I'm being exposed to these ideas, and I have a community and when I got involved in YWC, there was a huge pushback from local Anti Fascist and student organizers against our chapter. Actually, my vice president of YWC at Towson University had a mental breakdown and left school because of the harassment, and you know, yeah, you either break or you double down. And..
And Towson, just for context here- I know, some folks from Towson, and Towson is, at least in the 90s, I would say it was one of the centers of anarchism among at least as far as suburban towns go now, if not, of course, nothing compared to, you know, Washington DC, or New York or, or San Francisco. But in terms of suburban towns, there was, at least in the 90s, a vibrant anarchist youth scene. And that was the case when you were there. But yeah,
There's a strong, strong activist community there. And they started pushing back against us even harder, which, I mean, to be honest, not to blame them, but I think like, if we evaluate my life going forward, you know, one of the things is when people are telling me like, yeah, we've got to fight back against all of these people, and they're scum, they're fucking scum. We've got to deal with them, because they're gonna kill us. And then like, you know, we have like an affirmative action bake sale, which obviously wouldn't do now. But anyway, where, you know, white students pay $2 for Cookie, Black students had to pay for it, 75 cents, and to try and bring up attention about affirmative action. And like, some of the student activists came in, like flipped our table over. And that was the first time I ever had someone spit on me. And I'm gonna say that, like, if there had been some sort of intervention with student activists at the time, that was like, "Hey, I understand you've got a lot of grievances, maybe we can talk." I think that would have been a lot more successful, instead of spitting on me. Because that kind of reinforced the narrative I was getting, from the far right, about like, yeah, these people aren't just your fellow students, they are the enemy. So we lost our student affiliation, because our advisor, God was subject of harassment for Youth for Western Civilization. So I came back to school as a senior and the newspaper the Tower Light, our student newspaper, had referred to YWC as the unofficial white student union of Towson. And I was sitting around with our members and I was like, fuck it, let's just be the white student union. So we created a white student union, and we filled out all the paperwork, and the university rejected us. And that's the first time VICE News parachuted into my life, into my crappy, you know, apartment. And it instantly like I went from I was just like an activist to like, CNN shows up and I'm speaking to millions of people through the media, about these ideas. And, you know, I basically had a choice then, my family told me like, you're going to do this or you're going to apologize. And I doubled down. Because I mean, at the time, I thought I was right. And yeah, so at that point, my family cut off all ties. Basically, all my friends outside of the movement, cut off ties and the movement was my life for the next almost 10 years of my life.
Right. That's, I mean, I think that's such a fascinating set of little anecdotes that, you know, how this kind of thing goes forward. I mean, it all, you know, it all from a certain perspective, from your perspective at that time, you can see how the whole thing works and how that you can move in that direction as a highly intelligent, very well read teenage guy. And that's, you know, which is, I think especially fascinating because the far right or whatever white nationalism, white nationalist, white supremacist, whatever we're, however we're characterizing the whole mellieu people get generally characterized as stupid. And you know, an excellent- What was your experience like generally in that community in terms of how well read people were? Or how, what was the variety of backgrounds and who were your compatriots in the movement, generally, broadly?
Well, so yeah, there's definitely different layers in the movement. And I think that's important for people to understand. Kind of my generation is the first real internet generation. I mean, I'm 29 and we all started, you know, having access, you know, I got DSL, when I think I was in high school, arguing on forums and exchanging ideas and stuff like that. So like, when people think of the far right, they think of like, Selma, right, in the 60s and whatnot, or, you know, folks from the backwoods, holding on to stereotypes and whatnot. And like, that does exist, but in my experience in the alt right, which I think, you know, we can kind of differentiate as its own subculture. Everyone was incredibly well read. For the most part, I mean, talking about reading Rene Guenon reading all the works of Julius Evola, you know, if you were saying that, you know, talking and debating, I mean, I know on the left, the difference between a Trot and a Stalinist and Maoist and you know all the different things on the alt right. There was the the straw service faction, which I really identified with because it was the the working class socialists who got purged by Hitler. But the socialism is what attracted me. And then you had the esoteric Hitlerists that believed in Hinduism and read, you know, people like Savitri Devi to talk about like studying 1000s of years of history about the Aryan peoples and philosophy. So that was that section. Now I will say, one of the the funniest and scariest moments of my life was, I've had guns pulled on me by Klansmen, two different times. Which I had a nickel for every time that happened, that wouldn't be a lot of nickels. But it's weird that that's happened twice.
While you were in this white identity movement.
Yeah.
You were, they pointed guns at you.
Yeah, well, and like a Norwegian journalist, Vegas Tenold spent about five years embedded with the movement. In his book, Everything You Love Will Burn, I'm, I guess one of the main characters, I hate to say that, and even he admits I was never a white supremacist. So he's a Norwegian socialist journalist who now works in the Anti Defamation League. And he was like that Heimbach is not was never white supremacist, but it wasn't these circles, and white supremacist definitely do exist. But yeah, like there was one time we went to a funeral in the backwoods. And drunken Klansmen didn't know us and Vegas didn't know the handshake that you were supposed to know. And he pulled a fully loaded gun at us and put it to our faces one of these times and, you know, if you die, you die, what do you do at that point? So that was kind of scary. And another similar situation actually happened. Because even when I was in the movement, I thought that you know, as a Christian, that Black folks can go to heaven, which people took umbrage with, who, you know, we're in the Christian Identity community, that believe that anyone who isn't 100% white is a quote unquote, beast of the field, and therefore has no soul and can't go to heaven. And they were like, do you think Black people can go to heaven? I said, Yes. And I said, "Do you think if you have a mixed race relationship, does that mean that you can go to heaven?" I said, Yes. And I ended up having a gun pulled on me.
Quite an argument, quite a way to make the point.
It is, I mean, and you hear all sorts of like bizarre things like the first time I'd ever heard of Christian Identity. I mean, I grew up Catholic. And I was at a League of a South rally in Alabama. In 2013, I was still in college and was really new to this and I was being told that the Jews are the spawn of Eve and the snake. So they're their demons of sorts. And I was like, well, that's not in the Bible. And they're like, yes, it is. So they pointed to verses and I was like, but that's not what that means. Like, there's 2000 years of Christian tradition that explains why that's really stupid. And then they wanted to fight over it, but like I was introduced to some very crazy ideas. But yeah, there's I think there's an oversimplification Long story short, where everyone thinks the far right is dumb, and there's incredibly intelligent people. I mean, I don't want to pat myself on the back, but I think I was the most well traveled white nationalist in American history. I was in the Greek parliament with Golden Dawn and, you know, marched them in the streets multiple times, I spoke at the conference of the National Democratic Party of Germany and Weinheim, I met with members of Noua Dreaptă in Romania, and, you know, traveled to like half a dozen other European countries to forge these connections. And there's incredibly intelligent people with very strong philosophy and very strong beliefs. There's a lot of folks that just, you know, don't have a whole lot of strong beliefs and maybe just fall into kind of reactionary race, hatred, stuff like that. I don't want to dismiss that that exists. But my experience in the movement other than a couple of very odd times, like at that funeral where I had the gun pointed at me. I gave a presentation about why the Affordable Care Act was good to a group of robed Klansmen at the time. They were eating barbecue, because I was an insurance salesman at the time, doing health insurance, and they were complaining about Obama and saying some not so nice things. And they were like, my insurance has gone up. And I was like, "Look, Jim, I know your insurance has not gone up. If you filled out the application forms properly. Did you click the box on the government website that said, I would like to see if I can am eligible for assistance in paying my premiums?" And he said, "Well, I don't know." I said, Alright, go back. And I ended up walking some Klansmen through the Affordable Care Act process, which is very strange. So like, there's a lot of bizarre moments in the movement. And there's some very smart people, some very dumb people, some of the like, sweet folks that are just like good family men and family women that are kind and be kind, not just white folks, but everyone, and there's some some hateful bigots. It's there's definitely a spectrum.
And what did you, speaking of Europe, is also a place where I've spent about half of my adult life. And what did you find was the similarities or differences in the European far right movements? And how much were those movements largely reacting to the open borders of the European Union and immigration?
Well, I think
Are the disruption to society caused by immigration, or at least in their viewpoint, which I imagine, that's what I mean.
Right? Well, like so for me, like Europe inspired me. I don't think we really inspired Europe, because when you think of American white nationalism, it's just like, it's reactionary by nature, like opposing integration, opposing busing, opposing, you know, different policies and whatnot, affirmative action or whatever. But, you know, when I went to Europe for the first time, right after I got out of college, that's what we modeled the Traditionalist Worker Party after, not trying to do something that Americans were doing, but organizing it as a European style party. And definitely...
Was Golden Dawn a particular inspiration, or was there a particular party in Europe that you were inspired by? Or just the general level of organization they had? Overall?
Yeah, well, definitely the NPD in Germany, and then Golden Dawn, you know, all the guys that the first time I went, actually, to Greece, or even the second time, all the leadership was in prison, because they'd arrested them and held them for 18 months, while the five year mega trial was going on. And I got to meet a lot of the organizers and stuff. And I was taking back leaflets, and magazines and stuff like that, to then have a buddy that spoke Greek translate them for me in the United States and looking at the propaganda styles and everything. Because it was something new, like when I started, the white student union wanted to look at propaganda, I had to take an old National Alliance leaflet from the 90s and change the words on it, because there was no innovation in style and graphics. The only music was like really bad skinhead music, you know, oi, oi, oi, you know, putting on the boots stuff. There was no cultural innovation of the last 30 years. So to go to Europe, I mean, I guess I'm kind of guilty of it. I think I, along with others, really imported those those styles into what we see in the modern far right in America, which is a total break from the historical movement.
And I always have been struck by the level of organization among the European far right, it really, I mean, you know, there was Charlottesville, and of course, there was last Wednesday, and of course, now we have a president who is a far right organizer, essentially. But before Charlottesville, I mean, there have been so few in recent history, so few large gatherings of the right and 1000s of right wingers gathering in Berlin or in Athens or in any number of other places, of course, all over Eastern Europe, that kind of thing is very normal, and engaging in real serious acts of violence, including against police. It's really, but were you aware when you went to Greece and Germany that the NDP and Golden Dawn had been involved with a killing and beating refugees on the streets and that sort of thing? But that was, were you aware of that? And what did you think of that? How did you process that while you were? Because I don't know if that was something that you- Did you support that kind of activity?
Well,
Ideologically?
Well, I like for instance, the first time I went to the Golden Dawn office, and in Athens, which had a really thick metal door with bolts on it, and then you get to the second door, they had, you know, half dozen security guys there with cameras and stuff. And then eventually, you get patted down and get to go up to the office where the adorable, like 35 year old female secretary is typing out things for the parliamentarians and whatnot. But they had a huge wall, where they painted the pictures of the the two Golden Dawn comrades who had been assassinated by a Marxist organization, I think, like 2011, or 2012. And other pictures of Greek patriots that were on the wall, who had been killed during the Civil War and things like that. And I mean, I guess for me, like, I was aware that the Golden Dawn, they got into a lot of street fights, especially with Antifa. But also, you know, with folks and immigrant workers and stuff like that. But I guess for me, how I understood it is, just politics in Europe is dirty, like, yeah, on one side, people could be saying, like, the Anti Fascist rapper, who was stabbed by a Golden Dawn member, that happens, but also I'm looking at, you know, 15 pictures of people here that were shot or stabbed or stuff like that. So I guess I just kind of accepted it, is that's how, how real politic works. Both sides engaging in violence and intimidation. You know, Golden Dawn offices were firebombed and stormed by anarchists with brams to get through the doors, and you know, trashing it and stuff like that. So I guess I just kind of assumed, like, if one side does it, and the other side does it, then it just kind of is, you know?
Yeah,that makes a lot of sense, because I mean, I know a lot of anarchists and socialists in North America and in Europe, who very much adhere to the what Trotsky said that the only good fascist, that any, you know, that is what is it is the duty of every communist to acquaint a fascist head with the sidewalk.
Yeah.
And, that's a perspective that a lot of people take very seriously. And as far as they're concerned, they're fighting evil. And but it seems like when you got, if the evil people keep on multiplying, and there's 40,000 of them coming to the White House last Wednesday, maybe different tactics other than just, you know, sort of total confrontation and non communication. It could be better than, than this.
In terms of that, David, like, for me, what changed my position? On for instance, like the the JQ- the Jewish question.
You call that the JQ? Is that what they call it?
Movement shorthand, you know, how are you woke on the JQ? And if people don't know what you're talking about, then? You know, they're not
Then you, yeah, move on to the next person? Yeah.
But, you know, towards the end of my time in the movement, an Anti Fascist organizer, who I'd actually faced off against, at multiple protests, was talking to me and was like, well, what about members of the Jewish working class like that work in a factory or work on a farm or run a small shop? Like, are they determining the policy of the Federal Reserve? Are they advocating for Israeli apartheid? Like, do you hate those people? And I was like, well, well, no. Right? And then I start to think of like, so the problem isn't Jews then. Right? Like, because I've been told in the movement, read the books and stuff like that, like, it's the Jews, it's the Jews, it's the Jews. But if there's a whole huge section, I mean, I know for yourself like, it was also like, a very weird moment. For me being like, I loved your music the entire time I was in the movement, and I was like, what do I do with it? So a lot of conflicting things. My problem isn't with Jews, my problem is with imperialism and capitalism. And I honestly, like it sounds stupid. Like at some point, I should have thought about this. I think I'm a relatively intelligent person, but it took an Anti Fascist having a conversation with me, and sitting down, and we had coffee, and I was like, I don't know, like I you know, at the time, like I have like a my my pistol and I thought he was carrying too. Like, is this a setup? Like, am I gonna show up and get hit in the head with a brick? We just had a great conversation and it made me think to myself and reflect and honestly what got me out of being a fascist, was not being attacked. Like I've been maced, I've been pepper sprayed in Charlottesville, I was hit in the head with a bat, which luckily I was wearing a helmet or my brains would have been on the streets of Charlottesville. Yeah. And all sorts of stuff, like all that did was embolden me into- I am right, because you were trying to beat me off the street because you're afraid of my ideas. But one conversation over coffee, along with some other interactions, changed my life trajectory and changed and pulled me back enough to be able to start an analysis of my beliefs and kind of take stock of it and and shift them so like I understand were like,that was the first...
Was that the first time an Anti Fascist actually made an effort to have a conversation with you instead of swinging a bat at your head?
Yeah, so the first time I met antifa, we were protesting, rather than like the scuffles I had in college. We were protesting Tim Wise in, in in Indiana, actually. And a couple guys came up and they asked my buddy Thomas, well, not my buddy anymore, but the guy I was with Thomas, for a light and he goes in his pocket to get a light and they swing him in the head and they hit him with a lock in a sock. And Thomas goes down, and then they start pepper spraying. And I'm in the first street fight of my life. Like, I've always been like a fat nerd. Okay, like, growing up, I wasn't a brawler wasn't a bully have always been a fat nerd who loves sci fi, likes to read books, and lives a relatively quiet life. And here I am in front of a university in Indiana, engaged in a street brawl with guys who have weapons, fighting, and one of them ended up getting arrested because we ended up dogpiling on him and the cops came. The other ones got away, but they were from Chicago, Chicago ARA. And that was my first introduction to antifa. And basically every interaction then for the next seven years, was exclusively violent. Exclusively violent, with us being attacked. And yeah, that didn't really help me have any reflection. But when different and several Anti Fascist organizers, who were familiar with the gentleman in question, reached out to me too, including one for my local area, and we just opened a dialogue. That had a bigger impact on me then anytime I got maced or hit or got bleach thrown on me and stuff like that, because that's not in my opinion, like it scares off a certain number of people in the far right. But the rest of us then say to each other, like if you're going to go out to a protest, you need to be willing to die. Like, you know, and the escalation that happened over the past couple years, like we didn't used to bring guns to protests.
Right, now everybody's bringing guns to protest on both sides.
Yeah, by the time like, right, we're like in Pikeville, Kentucky when we had a rally, we're actually outnumbered by Antifa, we knew Redneck Revolt was coming. You know, the militia members of the John Brown Gun Club. So, you know, we're all looking around like, we have to bring body armor and AR fifteens. In between the two sides, we could have stormed a small Latin American country.
It becomes a point, at what point is it not protest. I mean, I, you know, when I'm going to these so called protests over the past few years when they happen, and so many people are carrying guns, especially in the past seven, eight, nine months. It's not really I mean, it now I'm skipping way ahead here. And I told you, I wasn't gonna do that. But they're not, they're not really protests. I mean, that's not really a protest. It's something else. I'm not sure what to call it. But this is when everybody's armed. I mean, the idea of a protest is, it's this- it's a symbolic action, where you might do something mildly illegal, like block a road, or try to blockade a building, the entrance to a building or something is basically symbolic. It might have economic impact, it might have, you know, go out of media, it might be theatrical, it might be good for communication, other things might get you attacked by the police. But it's not really anything that any reasonable person would call violence. I mean, marching in the street or blockading the entrance to a building is really not, it's not that not, you know, that's not really violent. You know, if somebody has to, you know, get stuck in a building for a few hours, you know, there's worse things that can happen in your life. But, you know, this is what, what is it? I mean, people talk about civil war. I don't exactly know what that could possibly look like, but it's starting to become something that you can almost imagine what it might look like. You know, it's like we're talking much more Northern Ireland than Lebanon. I mean, when we're talking about, but I don't want to skip ahead, though. I want to..
Sorry, I let you on the rabbit trail.
It's okay. But what so did you? So it wasn't that- it was really around the Jewish question that got you thinking, it wasn't so much that you met people from Antifa or from the any group that we might identify as left or anarchist, who actually were expressing sympathy for the white working class and the problem, the plight of the white working class, it was much more around, like, what you didn't believe than what you did you know what I mean?
Yeah, well,I mean, like, for me, for instance, like living in Appalachia, you know, even when I lived in Indiana, the joke from where I was living in southern Indiana and the Kentucky border, is Southern Indiana is the south's middle finger to the north. It's very strongly like an Appalachian region culturally. And, you know, living in Tennessee for a very long time now, seeing things like the opioid epidemic, which I've been to a lot of funerals, for folks I know who have lost family members, and even a comrade who lost his fight with opioids. And when you see the Sackler family, who is Jewish, who runs Purdue Pharma, and where no one goes to jail, no one goes to prison and stuff like that, or knowing friends, my own wife is a veteran who served. And a lot of guys that have come back dealing with post traumatic stress and war injuries, and guys that didn't come home for the imperialist wars in the Middle East. And seeing the influence that Israel and Israeli imperialism has, it was easy, in a lot of ways to say like it's the Jews, instead of, upon reflection, it's the capitalists, some of which are Jewish, some of which are Gentiles, some of which are tall and short, and some are men and women and whatnot.
A disproportionate number of the capitalists are Jewish, I just want to say that, to be very clear and open about this. And this is just a fact. And this, if you also, you could break things down according to religion, and race and all kinds of stuff. And of course, you'll find a disproportionate number of capitalists are also white. But there's a there is all kinds of little grains of truth in these. And of course, that goes way back, right. I mean, Jews have been used as a scapegoat in Europe for many, many hundreds of years, in order to be scapegoated. But in order to be scapegoated, there were there had to be reasons to scapegoat, right. So of course, you give them the job of money lending, don't let them own property, but let them run businesses. And then you know, you end up with a sort of certain form of ghettoization, which is, it's a very interesting, bizarre form of marginalization. Sort of this marginalized slash privileged position in many societies going way back. Of course, that's depending on which country we're talking about. I don't get too much into the whole thing. But it's, that was this. Did you grapple with that whole question of like, you know, I mean, Israel is an apartheid state. Israel is an, and it is an a... What is it? I think 40% of American Jews do identify with Israel, including much of my family from whom I am alienated. Because I do not support Israel, because it is a fascist state.
Yeah. Which it truly is.
Yeah, it truly is a fascist state. It by any possible reasonable definition of fascism, Israel is a fascist state. And, I'm talking right now with a former White Nationalist who agrees with me that Israel is a fascist state. And that's
As a guy who knows his fascism. Let me tell you. [laughing]
[Laughing] Okay, yeah. So that, so this makes you,r I mean, this is just I know, I'm skipping around randomly and nowhere on any kind of chronology here. But this basically, the fact that you actually recognize Israel as a fascist state makes your rehabilitation as a former White Nationalist, basically impossible. Right, in a sense,
Yes, well, and that's actually a lot of the pushback I've gotten. Because, you know, going back and reading Marx, when Marx wrote about the Jews, he was talking about capitalist Jews, having, you know, having a disproportionate impact and stuff like that. And Marx himself being Jewish, right, saying, like, Hey, guys, like, let's not be involved in capitalism. And you know, a lot of Jewish working class people were part of early socialist anarchists and Marxists movements. So like, I don't think it's antisemitic to be anti Zionist. I don't think it's antisemitic to call out folks if they are Jewish, in positions of capitalist power that are doing things like I mean, here in Appalachia in the Midwest, like 200 people die a day of opioid overdoses like it is bad. I mean, we're losing a Vietnam War worth of deaths every single year primarily in the white working class due to Purdue Pharma, and all their cronies, and the FDA, and whatnot that covered for them. But yeah, so it's a really big problem that I've experienced talking with former anti fascists, where they say like, will you know, what are your thoughts on Jews? And I was like, well, if they're working class and they're there with me, then I will march with them arm in arm, like I will unionize with my Jewish coworkers like let's do this, but I'm not going to carry water for the capitalists, and the imperialists, and the Israeli fascists that are diametrically opposed to not just the survival of like myself and my kids, but the entire world. Like putting us on the brink of possibly like a third world war due to their imperialism. And they're like, Ah, well, that's closet antisemitism and that's closet fascism. I know you yourself have been accused of antisemitism and whatnot for your positions on Israel. And as an Orthodox Christian as well, I converted when I was in college. Like the issue of Israel, for me, the first church I went to was an entirely Arab church with a lot of Palestinian Christians, and to hear them talk about their experiences, and their land being stolen, and what's done to their family, and family members that were tortured and things like that. I can't carry water for the Zionists. Like I have to be diametrically opposed to them because it's immoral. And you know, dealing with American Christians is very difficult. You know, the Orthodox Church signed the document, Kairos Palestine, but the other Palestinian Arab churches, the Orthodox church, the Catholic Church, the Lutherans and whatnot, condemning Israeli apartheid. But then I live here in the buckle of the Bible Belt and Christian Zionism is very powerful here.(laughs) So I, you know, everyone who doesn't like Zionism must be a Nazi. So that's difficult, in terms of, I hate to say like rehabilitation, but in terms of my perspective, I've changed from being what I would call like, a gutter antisemite, for lack of a better term, to having a nuanced position on capitalism. But if anything, is anti Zionist, and you are labeled an antisemite, and you're still a fascist and words are words, you know,
Because this idea of rehabilitation, is like, is very, to me very alarming, because, because what they're really talking about when we talk about rehabilitating white nationalists, when they talk about it regularly on NPR and BBC and have all these shows. Sometimes which are interesting, often aren't, making me want to barf, but they are always talking about, you basically have to adopt normative, basically neoliberal, perhaps even neo conservative viewpoints in order to you know, you have to basically if you're not an Israel supporter, and you're not, you know, you don't you know, basically go along with the mainstream political line, or at least some version of the mainstream political line, somewhere between the sort of liberal Democrat and conservative Republican. If you're outside of that spectrum, then you're never really able to be rehabilitated because they call the left you know, people who are anti Zionist on the left are also called antisemites and racists and whatever else No, it's a...
It's because it's an incredible powerful lobby, and I think a lot of Americans are just so politically inept. And it's on purpose, like the media and it's all the news puts out, essentially the same garbage with a tiny, tiny little spin on it, but it supports the status quo. And I've had, you know, kind of experience to like, you know, in terms of leaving the movement, Anti Fascists contacted me and saying, unless you doxx every single one of your former comrades, we will continue harassing and chasing you till the end of your days because you're not out of the movement. And for me, I can just speak in the past year, a tremendous number of the people that I bled next to, and fought next to and organized with, and slept on countless, too many horrible, horrible, horrible motel floors, when we were traveling to events and stuff like that, and bonded with. I've gotten out of white nationalism, and looking in the same perspective as Marxist Leninism primarily, by talking to them. Doxxing people just ruins their lives. But it, you know, I think just emboldened some and others, you don't change their minds, you're not persuading them. You're just bludgeoning them. And I think it's far more effective. Maybe it's just the Christian in me that believes in proselytizing, but preaching the good word, whether it's politics or religion, is far more effective than just forcing someone to submit for one reason or another. And like, No, I'm not going to doxx, my former comrades, like, as I said...
And also that the communication actually works.
Yes. Yes.
You have actually found this on multiple occasions- communicating with your former comrades, that they have actually come around to your new internationalist, anti-racist orientation.
Yes, yeah. Dialogue like it worked with me, having that first dialogue. Dialogue works. Like you cannot attack people anymore and physically bludgeon them and mace them, get them fired from jobs and stuff like that, to make them change their minds. But conversations and fraternity because I think for a decent number of people to like, I know for me, it was really scary to leave. Because that was that was my family. That was my life. It's not just ideas, it goes into like, you know, people who like I was in people's weddings, I went to funerals with their families. Like we used to have, ironically enough, because we, most people that I knew didn't have family that supported them if their views were known. So we would get together for Riechs-Giving to have our own Thanksgiving together and have Christmases together. And like, you form your entire community around a shared set of ideals and identity, and to leave and basically say you must burn all of those people one, and two, we're never actually going to trust you. Because the thing about traitors, no one actually likes a traitor, right? Like you can use a traitor, you can abuse a traitor, but there's a reason Benedict Arnold died in poverty. When he got back to England, right, no one, actually likes a traitor. So I think the current outlook of Anti-Fascists in America is- if someone leaves the movement, they will use that person, but they have no interest in ideologically indoctrinating them, bringing them into a community to fill that void of family and helping them. It's just about the next battle against the fascists and I think that's incredibly counterproductive. A lot of guys that I've known don't want to leave, just because like they will have nothing at that point, friends, you know, anything. So I think a new model needs to be implemented that's understanding, compassionate, and based on love not to sound too tacky, but like, the current way, obviously isn't working
No, really, I mean, if there were actually a social movement that could actually have that kind of inclusive, forward thinking, perspective, that is like, we need to, bring people into this fold and build this movement, because we need to accomplish something not because we're morally correct. And we need to react against those bad people, right, which seems to be much more I mean, you know, it's a reactive, this whole phenomenon, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, as much as I'm part of it and saying about it, and encouraging it, and a cheerleader of it. The whole phenomenon of the movements that we've been having in 2020 is, as with so many other movements, very reactive, rather than proactive, and I would say that the, you know, if there's other movements in history that we could point to that have more proactive aspects to them. And really, I think you kind of have to, to find a big one, you kind of have to go back to the first half of the century of the 20th century to find a lot of those more proactive, visionary movements that thought they were going to hopefully accomplish something and to some extent, did accomplish things. I mean, you know, to the extent that we have some labor protections today, a lot of that is due to some forward thinking movements back in the day. But these as a history as a history buff. I mean, how much of these historical parallels have you been running across where you had to, where you looked at it one way before, and then looked at it a different way. Now, for example, like, I know the, the 1930s Communist Party in the US in the 1930s, or the rise of the IWW in the 19 teens, the Palmer Raids, but maybe particularly Bacon's Rebellion, which you which you mentioned before, and I don't know if you had a different take on Bacon's Rebellion, before you left the movement, than after or did you come across Bacon's Rebellion more recently?
Well, I would suggest anyone who hasn't read it, Nancy Eisenberg's book, White Trash.
Oh my god, it's one of the best books I've ever read.
It's phenomenal. Even just to get the the citations in the notes to be able to go back and look at how the white proletariat has been treated this entire time and how race and class intersect in America. You know, I think the history of America is one of class. It's not a race. And it's very convenient to say it's one of race, because then we can just change the color of the foot in the boot. We don't have to remove the boot. Right? I you know, so for me, like looking back in history. I mean, I don't want to say I was, I had a schizophrenic sort of perspective, but I know like all the IWW songs [laughts] like I did in the movement, like for my days when I was a leftist when I was a teenager. And I mean, I guess to a certain extent, like you just you get so caught up in things. I mean, the problem is if a movement existed as the one that you suggested that wanted to unite the working class, then COINTELPRO would be utilized. Like the original Rainbow Coalition, where you had white folks in the Patriot party and the Black Panther Party, in different ethnic communities working together for socialism and justice, the FBI will frame you, or murder you in your bed and kick your doors in. So like for me it I guess, it was always odd, like on one hand, like I went, like Charlottesville, as an example, was a rally to protect Confederate statues and like my ancestors did fight in the Confederate army. But I also always hated the plantation owner like you think you're better than me just because you have monied people. So it was kind of a like a schizophrenic sort of perspective of like, I hate these people, but they're white and what they're really about boils down to, for me looking at history at the time, is its bourgeois nationalism, like that's been utilized for hundreds of years. Like, as you mentioned, I've used this line, I should attribute it more. But one of your videos, where you saying, The internationale, where you noted that French and Prussian aristocrats suddenly realized they had more in common than they previously thought, and marched on the Paris Commune, which had risen up and taken the city for the people. And, you know, it's a hard perspective where like, where you're told, like, you know, white solidarity, white folks need to stick together. And then now I kind of look back and go, like, you people never had our backs. But it's always convenient, like you were willing to send my ancestors to get shot and maimed so you could own human beings for your own economic bottom line. And that's the same in World War One. It's the same, you know, currently in the war on terror, like it's being done for Halliburton, and, you know, giant arms manufacturers. So, I mean, I always look back positively towards the historical, like, class based movements. The problem was, I just didn't see it in any of the modern left. And I've heard that refrain a lot from a lot of people when I was in the movement of like, well, that's how the left used to be. But they're not like that anymore. Now, they're just anti white. And that really kind of pushes you, not to take my own agency away. But like, that pushes you into like, "Well, I gotta stick with all the white people." But you know, for me, there was a moment right to go down an anecdotal rabbit hole.
This is good. Keep it up.
But everyone knows Richard Spencer, I'm sure. Yeah, see is watching. Richard Spencer is a dick. Just on a personal level, if you know anything about politics, he's it, anyway. So in 2017, 2018, early 2018, we were asked to provide security for his event in East Lansing. And the cops stood back and Antifa taken our parking area that were supposed to be designated for us. And the cop said, if you want to get in, you got to go through them. I was like, okay, and a fight broke out. And a lot of our guys, because Traditionalist Worker Party, was overwhelmingly working class, through and through, we were, you know, we didn't have all the sorts of fancy money like the folks from VDARE like Peter Brimelow, he just bought a $2 million castle with all of his donations. And when I was the leader of our party, I never took a salary. All of our money went into activism, and we were working class people. And a lot of our guys got really hurt. One of them got a fractured eardrum, guys got broken bones, it was a bad time. And I called Richard as the police then declared that this is going to be declared a riot. And they're going to run us all in if we kept trying to get through. So we had to leave. And I called Richard and said, most of my guys who are severely injured at this point, and are bleeding all over the place, you know, in our cars, we're going back to our meeting spot. They don't have health insurance. And like, I know you've got money. So we bled at your request to come to this event. And my guys need help. Like we need to take them to urgent care. Like right now. Will you help pay for the bills? And he hung up on me.
Wow.
Yeah. So, I called a guy I knew who was a med student. And he traveled two hours to come put staples and splints into you know, our guys, like one of our guys got split up and down the head. As they were all sitting there eating pizza, and he's [thumping sound effect] putting surgical staples in the guys head to close it because we couldn't afford to take them to the hospital. And that, for me was like a really big moment where I realized like Richard, and not just Richard as a person, but the entire class of White Nationalists. Like when you think of the suits of the movement, there's the boots and the suits. They will use us, they will sacrifice us and if one of us had died or been crippled, that would have been unfortunate. And it's just like how Donald Trump is alleged after this protest to have said he was disappointed you know, an aide said this to the media because it looked very low class.
Did he say that?
Yeah, yeah, I saw on Twitter and I found out from a journalist that had been covering the event. After the fact that Richard he appointed us, we, our uniform. If it wasn't a t-shirt, was a Dickies work shirt, which I wear to work every day and Dickies work pants and work boots, because we were a Workers Party, right? And that's what most guys had, like, we thought like, well, can we get a uniform that you can buy at Walmart for 40 bucks, which is what we can afford, we can't afford a $500 suit. And apparently, Richard had told this reporter- I wish you could meet a higher class of people than this, as we like, we're there at his, you know, at his behest to protect him, because everyone's seen the video of him getting punched in the face. He can't protect himself, right. But that for me was also like a life changing moment. Where like the people I care about and who I said okay, we were going to do this for the sake of white solidarity and are bleeding all over the place. Like, can't go to work or their blue collar jobs with, you know, their hand broken. He didn't care. And none of those people care. And it's not just the white nationalist movement that's dealing with, like in these, you know, in the West and things like that, that's all of our elites, they will use us when it's convenient to charge into the Somme or charging into Verdun or go to fight the Prussians, you know, we have to go baying at the Huns, in the Argonne. And that's convenient, and they'll use national appeals. That oh, we're, we're kinsmen is the Fatherland or the mother or whatever. They don't care if we live or die. And that, for me was really my breaking point where I said, like, pardon my language, but fuck these people.
And then you also you had that breaking point in terms of personal anecdotal type of, you know, personal experience, but also you had already? Or did you soon develop this sort of anti-nationalist sort of analysis that says that nationalism is one of the key ways that the ruling class along with race, that the ruling class is able to use the working class for their benefit? I think it was JP Morgan, who said, Why should I care about the union movement, I can employ half the working class to kill the other half?
Yeah, well, and, and that got me to realize, because I thought for a long time, if I was going to have pride in my culture, and my identity and stuff like that, then I had to be a nationalist. And that means, you know, all white folks, is we're all in this together and all that stuff. But that's when I really started reading materials, like coming out of the Rainbow Coalition, going in trying to find old mimeograph like copies of their newspaper and stuff, but understand the difference of patriotic socialism versus nationalism, which is totally separate. But that I think, what's a natural, healthy human instinct to have ties of kinship, like that's, that's normal, natural and healthy. And I read James Connolly, James Connolly was like truly the, let's put the final stone in. Because, you know, I think James Connelly really explained, as an Irish republican, and as a Marxist, how you can one, fight for the oppressed, not only in your own country, but around the world, but also how you can have a positive affirmative self identity and community identity. But that doesn't mean to the exclusion of others to the detriment of others, and how internationalism really works. So like, I at that point, kind of started diving back into Marxism, I read Connolly for the first time, and I was like, Ah, this is what I've been the whole time. Like, I never really, I mean, I guess I was a leader so I guess I fit into a certain extent but like I was being called a communist for my pro worker positions and a worker name and stuff like that and white nationalism for years. And you know, eventually like if the Red Star fits, you might as well own it. So that kind of, that's how I get here you know.
And Matthew, while you're in this, while you're leading the Traditionalist Workers Party getting all this attention of I don't know how often but certainly now and then from from major networks and then it's their, it's key events that happened during this time. And I wonder what went through your head? How did you process things like ooh, Utoya?
Utoya? pardon me
Anders Breivik.
Oh, yeah. Well, that and the attacks that have happened like it here in the United States of the shooting in Pittsburgh. I mean, for me,
Like this, that was, you were still in the movement, and El Paso as well. Um, I, the Walmart massacre.
I was close to being out of my timeline fits. Well, and there was always this argument between what I would call the the politicals and the accelerationist. And this, I think, is an important distinction for folks. Like we had an, it was an FEC registered political party, like our belief was- we were going to use elections to gain political power to advocate for our positions. But there was this entire group, organizations like Attomwaffen Division, the Base and others, and then just the individuals who believe in this concept of accelerationism, that they're not going to listen to you. They're not going to let you participate in the process. And we must use, especially James Mason's book Siege as a model, and Charles Manson, obviously. When I got in the movement, I never thought I'd have to be arguing against Manson-ite politics. But you know, you make strange bedfellows along the way I suppose. So these two factions between wanting to engage the political system and hold rallies and stuff like that. And these people have just wanted to do terror because the way you bring down the system is you crash it. You force the system to overreact. You bring out civil strife, and then we're just gonna slog it out, right, and whites are gonna come out on top. And I argued against those people for a very long time, saying that it was immoral. Like as a Christian, I can't support killing civilians like and I was always opposed to those positions. But I have to say, after Charlottesville, when the deplatforming happened, where everyone lost their websites, their credit card processing and stuff like that. And I mean, I'm, I was there, obviously, and still being sued over it four years later, which is fine. I don't have any money anyway. I think I'm innocent. But that's neither here nor there. The accelerationist just won the argument, fundamentally, because if you can't hold a permitted protest, without the, you know, having the cop stand down, I mean, pigs are pigs. But you can't get to the political system, you can't have a Twitter, you can't get your message out there. The only option left is violence. And Anders Breivik kind of started that. And it's only accelerated since then. Because, and I'm not saying that all these social media companies should allow every Tom, Dick, and Harry within organization to be platformed. But I mean, the problem is, for those of us who are in the movement, saying, like, no, we're going to engage the system, we're gonna do this legally, we're gonna do this peacefully, like, we're gonna run someone for city council, like, that's what we're gonna do. And other people being like, well, they're not gonna let you do that, they didn't let you do that. Now you're banned off the entire, you know, above web, you're on the dark web using the Tor browser just to read a blog post. We have to do some terrorism. And they've fundamentally won the argument in a lot of ways where like deplatforming I think, has led to an increase in these lone wolf attacks. Where again, like, this goes back, I think, to the 1970sin Britain with the deplatforming movement, and the no platform where we're not going to talk to fascists, we're not going to argue against fascists, were going to crush fascists, and you know, 95% of people, or 99% of people aren't going to do anything. But if you can't have your voice be heard. And we see this, I think, in the Islamic community in Europe, you know, when mosques are shut down, and there's harassment of Muslims, and things like that, that's a breeding ground for the most radical position to say, look, you can't run a political candidate, like they're coming after you. You have to fight, you have to kill, you have to win the struggle, and it leads to radicalization. So I think it's kind of off topic from how this started, but I was always against that.
Very on topic.
I was always against violence. But we've reached this position where I think that the most radical of the radical, that aren't even white nationalist, because the idea of when we were white nationalist was we want to build a white nation, we want to have a country, we want to be at the United Nations, we want to like figure out trade policy and stuff, versus people that want to actually just do terror. Like the purpose is terror, the purpose isn't to build, the purpose is to destroy, because they have like a Mad Max, Charles Manson fantasy, and it's dangerous. And now it's, you know, there were plenty of times when I was a movement organizer, where people would say, we have to do something. And it's like, well, handing out leaflets and organizing, recruiting is doing something. And that was enough. And like, I think back to Dylann Roof, actually, after Dylann Roof did his shooting, I was the only white nationalist who went down to South Carolina to participate in the peace vigils. And lay flowers at the church and condemn the actions in person, which I, that was a very tough situation. And there were a lot of people who recognized me or were not very happy [laughs] with me, but I thought it had to be known that we didn't stand behind these actions didn't speak for us. But when I read Dylann roofs manifesto, where he says in it, that no one's doing anything they use, like the KKK is here, but they're irrelevant. I feel like I need to do something. And what really bothered me at the time, and it still bothers me that like if I'd been able to meet him, and get him engaged in a way that made him feel that he was getting his voice out there by his own words, he wouldn't have done the horrific act that he did. People need to feel engaged, they need to feel listened to and find a way to solve problems together. Win or lose. But this alienation, isolation, I mean, whether we're talking about SSRI drugs that are prescribed that lead to all sorts of stuff, that's a whole other issue. But like, there's a lot of isolated alienated individuals now.
What's SSRI?
Oh, the psychiatric drugs, and you know, you take them for depression, and they, you know, side effects is increased suicidal ideations, like that's not ideal. Big Pharma, not friends of ours, but..
A friend of mine jumped off a bridge just after getting on those drugs.
That's, there's a lot like, but yeah, so like, kind of, to answer your question like, I was against it. And like, I think we've got a serious problem in American society right now. And the neoliberal, neoconservative solution of, just silence these people and push them off the public sphere is leading directly to a tiny subset of the people that might have like pearl white views into the most extreme ideology that's in an echo chamber. You've got guys like the organizer of the Base that didn't even live in the United States. That was telling young men to go throw their lives away and to hurt and kill other people, as a Chickenhawk organizer, like and that's
From Russia
Yeah, from Russia, to just serve your people. This is what you have to do, not taking his own risks. And I think the problem is only going to get worse. And the answer, I think, again, not to sound tacky, but it's more dialogue, compassion, understanding and bringing people out of the darkness to like, humanize them. Because a lot of people don't feel like, they feel like the entire system hates them. And it does. But it's because they're working class. It alienates them, because they're working class. But if they're only being fed one mantra, and they're in echo chambers, bad stuff happens. And like I think the current way to crack down on domestic terrorism is being done entirely wrong. And I think it's either gross incompetence or on purpose. Looking at how Muslim Americans have been treated over the past 20 years, the war on terror, the system loves to create fake charges, to get impressionable young people to say, Yeah, I want to blow something up. And then they get to justify their budgets for another year for the surveillance state. And they throw a young Muslim man away in prison for the rest of his life. And they're, I think they're just moving to a different target.
At this, they do the same to, for white nationalist groups. And actually, that they do it with Muslim groups. I mean, they do that with anyone. That's their setup. I mean, that's their, their MO is setting people up like that. This, which is actually not questionable in terms of how legal it is for them to be doing their things like you're, you know, about that group of guys from Newburgh, New York, who was supposedly going to blow up the Sears Tower, but they couldn't even find Chicago on a map, and none of them had a driver's license.
Yeah, well, and they've done the same to, you know, to anarchists, and stuff like that. I mean, this has COINTELPRO in the 21st century with an advanced surveillance state, because they, there has to be terror, there has to be violence. And I don't think the ruling class cares if you know, a bunch of Mexican Americans and immigrants lose their life in a Walmart or a bunch of elderly people are killed in a synagogue. Or if a bunch of you know, white Americans in Kansas are killed by it by a jihadist, because that doesn't affect them. But it does justify the systems of oppression that the state is utilizing. That Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden have revealed that they're using on all of us. So I think the violence is not so much planned, but they create the situation with fake arrests, to justify their budgets, but the violence is actually beneficial to the ruling class, to justify their current state of running things.
And talk for a moment about the deep platforming on this social media and all that taken away, your ability to process payments and all that kind of thing. This like, this is obviously massive national, global conversation right now after Wednesday. And the in this, the whatever passes as the left is very divided on the whole question of censorship, either either pro censorship or anti censorship, or they have some kind of more nuanced perspective. But it seems to me that the whole conversation is kind of off to the side somewhere, because nobody's really talking about algorithms. And I'm not sure how well people even understand how the algorithms on that, you know, YouTube and Facebook in particular, but also, I guess, Twitter, to some extent, but I think that, you know, it's a little more nuanced with Twitter. But I mean, in terms of Facebook and YouTube, their algorithms are driving people to find more and more extreme thoughts and whatever ideas in whatever realm they're already interested in, just to keep them glued to the screen. And it, just, no matter how much deplatforming goes on, as long as those algorithms continue, then they're just gonna drive people into those rabbit holes more and more. And it's the algorithm that has to be changed, at least, I'd say far more importantly, than any kind of like deplatforming. And in fact, I'm not sure how much deplatforming would even be necessary if they didn't have these algorithms, because they prevent people from really communicating with each other in the first place. What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, no, I mean, this is an example of capitalism where ad revenue rules all right. So I mean, in terms of like, the fact that one of my co workers who I've had many conversations with, he's a flat earther. He's a gentleman of color, like he's not affiliated with any sort of far right groups, but he is absolutely a Q-Anon supporter, even though he's not a Trump supporter, and he's a flat earther and where literally..
Literally? He believes the earth is flat?
Literally, he believes that the earth is flat. And you know, where do you find the need to watch these videos on YouTube and stuff like that? And yeah, because it is absolutely in the interest of big tech, to their existence, because they're not charging subscription fees, that- to be able to pay off their stockholders and whatnot and give themselves a nice new yacht every single year, they need that ad revenue. So they don't, for all that they care in their platitudes about diversity or about helping marginalized communities and all that stuff like that. At the end of the day, there are capitalist corporations that exist to make profit for their stockholders, and they will allow any sort of content that exists that is still profitable to them, no matter how destructive it is to society at large. So I think that's, I think you're right, that one of the biggest problems like Q-Anon okay. Like, obviously, in my opinion, our elites are a bunch of sketchy people that do morally reprehensible things. I think things like the Iraq War, using depleted uranium on civilian populations, or Agent Orange or stuff is horrible. I don't think there's satanic sacrifices underneath pizza restaurants, right. But you've got like, I think the rally in DC, a lot of those people are just normal conservatives for all the, like the far right groups that were there. Most of those people are like normie, normie conservatives, and they have been fed a steady diet of fake news since before the election, that the election was stolen, that the American system is illegitimate. Like I live here in Tennessee, and I was listening to Kelly Loeffler's ads on the radio, over and over and over again. That we needed to stop socialism, we needed to save America, we needed to fight so our children have a future. And it gets people you know, they're hearing this message over and over and over again. And these algorithms exist to keep people plugged in. So they're watching the next video, and they're reading the next article and dudududa. And you wonder why people stormed the Capitol. Like, I'm not trying to take agency away from those folks. But like, when they're fed a steady diet from the President of the United States, who we're supposed to, like, respect at least the office even if you don't like them, right?
This is the highest office in the land. Yes, he was elected.
Yeah, to senators and representatives, media pundits, to like the random guy in Serbia that's running a meme page and putting out fake information so he can get ad revenue, right? All the way down. Like, words do have consequences at a certain point. And at the tech companies, I think, one for that for the rally on Wednesday. I don't want to jump too far ahead. But I think the blood is on Donald Trump's hands and the Republican Party, but it's also a big tech hands
very much.
And that's until we address these problems. Like, you know, it's just like Jeff Bezos saying like, well, I'm going to invest $5 million in marginalized communities. And it's like, you made that in 25 minutes.
But like, it's by exploiting marginalized people,
right? I've worked in an Amazon warehouse, like my wife has worked in an Amazon warehouse, it sucks.
Horrible.
It's, not good. But like these big tech people are responsible, for because misinformation is profitable. And division is profitable. Because if people are in flame wars with each other, or in their own echo chamber, they're staying on the platforms, and they're making the people in charge money. And so I think our entire system is broken in that way. And I don't think big tech can be fixed. I think, like these big platforms should be nationalized, to a certain degree, to become part of the public square for discussion and debate of ideas. So long as they exist for profit, they're gonna keep being a destructive influence on our democracy.
Yeah, on our democracy, do we have a democracy?
No, we have an oligarchy. But it's got a really high production budget that makes it seem like it's a democracy.
That's a perfect way to put it. An oligarchy with a high production budget, I have to remember that, that is fantastic.
[laughs] Well, you know, the entire American system is just a couple companies and banks wearing in a trench coat, trying to buy an R rated movie ticket and saying that they're a country, like it's a capitalist system. It's always been a capitalist system, like going back to when we were colonies. They came here and they took my ancestors and yours, lots of other folks like, and they called us fertilizer, right? They said that our labor and our deaths and our sacrifices were fertilizer for them, for this new land, so that they could make money. Most of the people that made huge amounts of profits off of colonies never stepped foot here. And that dynamic has never changed.
And they expected the colonizers to die and they died. I mean they, people were, didn't live oftentimes more than a few years once they got to these terribly harsh conditions of like, of course, the most famous example being Jamestown, a terrible disaster.
And it just gets into like, something I didn't know until I read White Trash, but then I did more research is about like, the white working class, how we would be, well not we like I was there, but like, the people would be pushed after an area had been properly civilized. And oh, it's a town now and we're making a bunch of money and everything's great and they would push the people into the frontier. So they would get in contact and then get in conflict with indigenous person, kill them and if a bunch of white working class people died, well, who cares. And eventually that area, they would start building little communities and stuff like that. And, oh, it's time to bring civilization another 50 miles, you know, into America. And the same process would happen, they kept pushing them farther and farther west through economic exploitation and control of the political power. And like, to look back at the history of America, like, America was never great, in my personal opinion. And that's someone who like, half my family has been here since dirt. And like, I'd like to think I'm patriotic to some degree, but not for the United States [laughs]. Sorry, that's a history rant.
Like, that's, that's a good history rant, a very good history rant. So you and I've been in touch regularly on and off for the past year, I guess it was, and then I was, I had wrote this open letter to the Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys and I, and which I feel like I understand how to try to communicate with people because I am a member of, I'm, because I'm white, and I'm a member of the working class. And I think I also just, I grew up in this country, and I think I understand that indoctrination on multiple sides, because I'm an intelligent person. So you know, I wrote this thing. And it's just one of many things that I've written where I'm actually, without being necessarily, except in this case, explicit about it. That's who I'm trying to reach. Despite the fact that it looks like I might be preaching to the choir, that's just because the choir is the ones who listen, you know, it's not because that's what I'm necessarily only trying to reach. But yeah, a lot of people said it, that my piece made a lot of sense. And a lot of people said, it's the left that need to read this at least as much as anybody else, which I totally agree with, even though I called it a open letter to the far-right? It's really not necessarily only to them, it's about communication, really, but talk about your impressions of that, and any other, I don't know, you thought it made sense. And this is and you think that it's possible to communicate on the basis of the many things that we have in common with each other around marginalization by being members of the working class and to explain how we've been divided and ruled by these mechanisms of nationalism and racism.
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the biggest thing is, you know, of course, like the 2016 election was a moment where a lot of people started clutching at pearls as an example to explain the Trump movement like, ah, the deep resurgence of white supremacy in America. And like, I mean, all the different things like we listen to NPR, every time I go to work, and I come home
I listen to it way too much. I just wrote an essay actually called how NPR divides and rules. But anyway, go on.
NPR, an organization that referred to me as an insurrectionist. On an article that they published yesterday, which was great considering I wasn't in Washington, DC. But anyway,
You know, Fox, they were going on Fox, because Fox, I mean, just for the record, Fox just ran an article two days ago saying that you were in DC because somebody supposedly saw you there and you weren't and and they retracted the article, but then it's too late for NPR to not catch on to that and also make the assumption that Fox was correct. And that you were there.
Yes. All because Lin Wood who of course, thinks that Supreme Court justices are like killing and raping children on camera for blackmail. Which, not a balanced individual. I'll just say that because he put out a tweet and it you know, goes you play a game of telephone, but you've got taxpayer subsidized media outlets, saying that I, Matthew Heimbach was trying to overthrow the US government on Wednesday. Which I didn't so [laughs]
It's a minor point. It's not like they're accusing you of much. No,
I don't think the mainstream news has ever let facts get in the way of a good story. So that's that, but anyway. So like, we've all listened over the years to trying to explain the Trump movement and explain MAGA and stuff like that. And like, I'll tell you this as an organizer in white nationalism. One of the times we had a rally in Kentucky, small town called Pikeville. Pikeville used to have industry used to have mines and stuff like that. There's nothing left. There's like a hospital and a college there now, and that's keeping the town, the county afloat. Opioid epidemic is huge, lack of health care, lack of education, lack of jobs, just it's a beautiful place. The people are beautiful, but it's not doing great. And that was solid Trump country. And for me, part of the thing is when we hold our rally there is you had to bring household supplies, diapers, food, something that can be utilized to give to a family and we put it up, if you're in need of help, we will allocate supplies to local families that need it. And I went with two of my comrades with a couple bags of groceries, non perishables and diapers and stuff like that, to a family that was in a trailer in one of the hollers. And, you know, it's never a comfortable situation to see a grown man cry. But the father teared up a little bit and thanked us and really appreciated it. And he told me that no one from any political party had ever knocked on his door. And had never asked him what he and his family needed. But the Nazis were here, right, like, yeah. And he had no problem with us being in his house and sitting with his family and playing with his kids. And like, it was a moment that impacted me a lot. And to think that there's truly millions of people. I mean, the war on poverty was launched in Appalachia and I talked about Appalachia a lot, that's where I am. And I did most of our organizing almost all of our party chapters were in Appalachia or the Rust Belt. There's millions upon millions of people that are being ground down by capitalism. And it's not a new phenomenon, like they were paying people in companies scrip up until the 1970s in some of these places like they've been abandoned and ignored and spit on for a long, long time sacrificing their men and their boys into the maw of industry and mines to be crushed and crippled and get black lung and then thrown away.
And wanting to go to war to that's also significant, isn't it? I mean, how many come? Because one thing I read recently, I don't know it, because I mean, it all corresponds also so much to where there's poverty, and you know, where the Rust Belt is, and where there's unemployment, etc. But the fact is, some of Trumps biggest support comes from the counties that have the highest number of combat veterans.
Yeah, I mean, Tennessee is known as the Volunteer State. And I forget, I think it was one of the Black Panthers who said that they'll never have to reinstitute the draft, so long as poverty exists. And it's true, like folks don't want to go, like my wife when she volunteered to join the United States military it was she could go to college, and she could have health care and a steady job, because like, East Tennessee has not nor ever has been an incredibly vibrant economy. And, you know, the thing is, with folks, to understand them, they weren't voting for Trump, because in my opinion, well, some of them were but the overwhelming majority, were not voting for Trump because they didn't like Muslims or they have a problem with Latinos, whether they are legal citizens or whether they're undocumented, they just want something different from the grinding poverty and exploitation and the misery that is their everyday life. And no one has even pretended to pay lip service to them. Since like, Huey Long was killed in Louisiana. There hasn't been a single political movement that's really spoken for people that are left behind and like so it's very easy for them to get brought in by Donald Trump or even most of them know that like he, he's a grifter. He's a dishonest non-Christian like grifter. But at least he was even trying to pretend to give a shit. And I think that's a big drive amongst like a lot of Patriot organizations on the far right to get back to the article and then try to get there. Sorry, he did great. But like, the big thing is, if you start out from a premise that these are bad people, that these are morally deficient people that are members of these far right organizations or who support Trump or things like that.
Deplorables
Yeah, deplorables. You lose the argument instantly, and all you do is reinforce that no one on the left gives a shit about us. They think that we are backwoods, gun toting hillbillies that they say they hate and we're the problem in this country. And, you know, forget it. We'll go over here then, like, you know, I did not get when, when I was doing my organizing, did not get a lot of space when it came to working in college towns. But I tell you what, in small impoverished communities when we were doing, right outside of Louisville, Kentucky, we were having one of our first party meetings, and there was maybe a dozen people and I was handing out our newslette,r action and stuff like that, and giving a small little presentation, this pizza shop, and a guy stood up who had been sitting in listening to us but wasn't with us. And he came up and he said, Give me a membership application form because I've never heard someone talk like that. And it's not that I'm that great of a public speaker. It's just that people just want someone to fight for them. And I think your article was amazing. Not to blow too much smoke but like it, the fact- it humanized people and treated them like they actually mattered, like is the the true heart of how we can start a dialogue in this country because I don't think most Proud Boys hate people who are different than them or even people who disagree from them. But they've just, the establishment has ignored them for so long. Like, you know, hurt people hurt people. Right. And I think when it comes politically, we're seeing that, that folks are hurt, like just because they've been suffering in silence. And I think, looking at BLM as an example, like marginalized, harassed, exploited, communities have started to fight back and push back in this country, because no one has listened to them for a very long time. And they have so many legitimate grievances that need to be addressed at a societal level. But there's just kind of this mindset in America that if you're, like, a white, socially conservative person, and I'll get flack for this probably from some people in the comments, but like, there's, you're used by the Republicans to turn out to vote, but like no one actually seems to care. So the first way to short circuit them being pushed into the far right, or still carrying water for this system, is just showing them a little bit of compassion and respect. Like no one. We tried everything. We tried to throw bricks at them, try to get him fired from their jobs, tried to call them names, and that hasn't worked. Like, let's talk to him and your article, like, I'm sure you've gotten a lot of flack for being willing to just even have a conversation with folks.
I actually haven't. And actually, all the, which has been very heartwarming to see. And I, there's a lot of the articles I've been writing in the past couple of months, especially where I keep on expecting to be hated upon by uh, doctrinaire left wingers or, you know, certain members of the left that, you know, that I've written songs about that are very narrow minded. But I've been surprised that it's been entirely positive feedback, although sometimes the lack of positive feedback from certain quarters makes me wonder if there's some people not feeling so positive about it, but nothing negative anyway.
Well that's good. But maybe we're reaching a point in this country where like, dialogue can happen. I mean, you know, as you mentioned before, like with the, about the arms and stuff, and how like, between the far right, and the far left, I again, I hate to use those terms, too. It's been like an arms race, in a certain way for public demonstrations. Now everyone's going in like tac gear and body armor and AR fifteens. Yeah. Which is not helpful. But so long as subcultures exist that feed off of one another, and the conflict is what draws in supporters. And that's the draw is not wider societal change. It's about- you're here to fight like, anti-antifa. And then antifa being like, we have to fight the fascists, and which, like anti-antifi always hated, because like, it's just -fa, right. Like, if you're anti-antifa, like, you're just you're just -fa, like, you're just a fascist, just own it. But anyway, yeah. Like, anytime, like I think that's what we need is a lot more openness, and dialogue. Because at the end of the day, like, if you're a proud boy, and you're mad, that your job is gone, that your factory town is drowning in opioids, that you don't have a future and you're pissed off, like you should be pissed off, like you wrote about in the article, like you should be mad. But you're not necessarily being mad at the right person. Because the, you know, the undocumented immigrant, or the Black single mother, or the, you know, Hispanic father of three, that lives two towns over, or right down your street is facing the same fundamental problems. And if we all got mad together, there's not very many of those people [laughs].
Yeah, although even if we all get mad together, we all still know that we don't make government policies and the government can just keep on trying to divide us by doing things like say, inviting in lots more immigration, which is like not in, not to be saying anything negative about immigration at all, you know, lest anybody misunderstand. But this is, this can be used as a divisive tactic. And it has been throughout the history of this country. And if you look at the labor movement in the early 20th century, like how the Industrial Workers of the World had to have 26 different languages represented in the Lowell strike, they had to have 52 representatives, each of whom were the two for each of the 26 languages spoken on the floor of the mill, in order to try to communicate with each other in order to try to organize ultimately a very successful strike. But the company did not actually need to hire from 26 different immigrant groups. They did that very intentionally. Not that there's anything wrong with that, with hiring 26 different immigrant groups. Let me just clarify, but they did that in order to divide people
Well, yeah. And Jeff Bezos is doing it now. The leaked document that came out last year, that Whole Foods specifically wants to have diverse workforces for the purpose of anti-unionization efforts like they utilize diversity not because they think it's a strength or not because they want to employ people of different backgrounds. But to try and make sure that no one unionizes their stores and like Henry Ford the fascist that's willing to go and get medals from the Third Reich. When union organization was taking off in Detroit, he's the one who pushed to ship up out of work, Black workers to create racial strife on the factory floor to attempt to stop labor organizing like that. That's the sort of thing that we need to understand. And I think there's a problem on the left in my personal opinion, where like the issue of immigration, like, yeah, we shouldn't be mad at immigrants, because how would I feel if the United States came in, overthrew my democratically elected government, had corporations ruling and exploiting me and like Coca Cola was hiring death squads to like, murder, my local union organizer, and gangs that are running drugs, like for the CIA, are running amok? Like, yeah, I'd want to take care of my family, I'd want to go somewhere safer, I want to make a better life, like, we should have compassion. But I think the push, you know, Chomsky, I have a lot of critiques of Chomsky. But you know, he said that capitalism begins as racist, because that's a way to exploit people and their resources, but inevitably becomes anti-racist. Because things like racial identity, religion, culture, language, things like that get in the way of human beings being just interchangeable cogs and producers and consumers. Like they want to sell Budweiser in Saudi Arabia, like, you know, they, but religion gets in the way. So like, there's this problem of where if you say, like, maybe immigration is having an impact on local wages, and things like that, and we should have a conversation, doesn't mean you're anti-immigrant. But capitalists are using this weapon in this tool of using working people from different backgrounds against one another, like literally destabilizing countries to push people into other countries for their benefit.
And if you look at what happened in Europe, I think it's another one of those perfect examples of how, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the expansion of the European Union, and then you have this, okay, we're one big European Union now. And then, if once you've bought up all the state resources of the former Eastern European countries, and basically destroyed all their economies systematically through buying up and supporting all the oligarchs, and then you have massive waves of emigration from Eastern Europe, to Western Europe, and then you have Brexit and all this other stuff, and it's like, you know, this is all like a big game. But how many people are seeing that as a big game? And how many people are being accused of being against immigration if they even talk about it?
Well, yeah, I mean, for instance, like if you're in London, and you know, they talk about like, the Polish plumber, like, I'm pretty sure your average Polish immigrant, probably wants to be at home in Poland, like with his community and his family, but he needs to create a living for himself. And, of course, the United States, God bless em. You know, we love democracy, unless the Russian Parliament isn't doing what we want after the fall of the Soviet Union. So we help Yeltsin bomb democratically elected individuals, to turn over Russia, to the oligarchs, and things like that
Literally. And if people don't know that history, they really should. I mean, if you don't know your history, you're suffering from amnesia, and you're just going to repeat all of the mistakes that have been made before. But people just have to know that history, what you're talking about. They bombed the Russian parliament, and Yeltsin declared power and just pulled the rug out of this, the whole existence of the Soviet Union by declaring Russia an independent country, and of course, Russia was the biggest of the 15 Soviet states. So it, the Soviet Union wasn't viable as a entity after that, but that's how he took power from Gorbachev.
Yeah, it was a capitalist coup. And it's something that's been repeated around the world and like, well, to go back just speaking of like, destabilization all people need to know their history. Your song Korea is phenomenal, by the way, but I think it's like the second or third verse where you ask, you know, why our leaders, you know, like, talk the way they do. And, you know, we spent, we dropped more munitions on North Korea, than we dropped pound for pound of TNT on all of Japan during the entirety and their territories during the entirety of World War Two in a tiny country. And like, you know, Americans are told like the North Koreans, like I guess, like went to invade us in like the Red Dawn remake or something like that. And it's like, why would they want nuclear weapons like, because we've been menacing them for 60 years, and we bombed them back to the Stone Age essentially. But if you don't understand the history, the propaganda machine is able to say you need to hate North Korea and North Korea they're crazy. They're nuts. They want a nuclear weapon because they're crazy and want to bomb Kansas. Like, no, they want to protect themselves from us. Like to understand Putin, like, why are the Russians, you know, Russian elections are not perhaps the most open? I'll just say that. But like, why does a huge percentage of Russians want Vladimir Putin as a strong man, as their president,. Because they lived through the 90s, where like, women with master's degrees were prostituting themselves so they could feed their children bread, because like, we pushed the destruction of their country, and we made the Soviet Union a promise, we wouldn't extend NATO. And then we're putting missile bases in Romania and Poland, like, if you don't understand history, and geopolitics, the world can seem like a very scary place, that just people hate you for no reason. Like, oh, they hate us for our freedom, like, no, they don't. No, we don't have any freedom, first of all, but second of all, they don't hate us for our freedom. They hate the oligarchs that push geopolitics. And we're a bunch of dupes, because, you know, the informations out there. But people aren't informed, and corporate news tells them one thing. And so that's how I think they get us, they trick us into supporting these neoliberal policies and people die. And it's, people need to be educated. And if they're not, the system is just gonna be allowed to continue. Education is the most important thing we can do.
Yeah,here here.
Sorry, sorry.
No, I love that education, you know, because like you were saying about people saying, I want to do something and you're saying, well, education and campaigning and building the party and that sort of thing, that is doing something. And that is absolutely the case, I don't think we have any possibility of moving anywhere forward until we understand where we are, you have to be able to see around you. And in order to see around you. The world is a, more than a three dimensional phenomenon. It exists in the fourth dimension as well, you have to understand the past.
Yeah, I agree.
What, what do you think is going to happen? Oh, in the next week in this country?
I mean, I think the Democrats might push for article 25. This week. And honestly, I wouldn't be opposed. Because I would not be surprised if Donald Trump launched an illegal war on Iran as a final, you know, middle finger to the system, or something like that. I don't think he's in a good place. I don't think he's ever been really in a good place. But I think he's in a very dangerous situation. Not just for our country, but for all the peoples of the world. So I really hope the Democrats are able to do that. But American government only moves quickly, when we're authorizing an $800 billion military budget, or doing illegal wars. So I don't know how fast parliamentary procedures will will move. Fingers crossed.
What do you think? I mean, that's interesting that you say fingers crossed, because I always I always refer to the Democrats as the delivery mechanism for fascism [Heimbach laughs]. Because they are, but I mean, it but yeah, maybe better than world war three, if that's the, you know, those are the options, Biden reminds me of like a high school vice principal trying to like take care of like a riot in New York City [both laugh] completely over his head.
It's dangerous, like the Democrats, the fact we can't even get a vote for Medicare for all. And now Minuchin in West Virginia, saying he's going to stand in the way like everyone was promised, if the Dems get the Senate, we're going to get the $2,000 Relief checks. It's gonna be the first thing on the agenda. And now they've got you know, the heel, you know, it's just like in professional wrestling, you know, the one guy is gonna be the heel. And Mitch McConnell will get his way even though the Democrats have the majority in the Senate, because they don't want to help working people, like our slavery is good for them. It's good for business that local businesses are closing, it's good that people are desperate, because desperate workers don't organize. Desperate workers are thankful they still have a job, no matter how bad it is, and how low they're paid. And like this is beneficial for them. So like, yeah, the Democrats aren't good people. The Republicans are corporate whores. But, you know, so are the Democrats.
Yeah, in fact, the average, at least this is a couple years old, so I'm not sure if it's current, but the average Democrat in the Congress, overall wealth is $4,000 greater than the average Republican.
That doesn't surprise me. Yeah.
Matthew, what do you think the white nationalist movement might do in the next week?
Pretty much nothing. And that's actually an interesting thing. For all the people that were at the Capitol. There was only Well, Nick Fuentes, who runs America First. He's Hispanic. His whole thing is, I mean, he dog whistles, a lot of white nationalism. But his whole thing is America First, like a very bizarre sort of hybrid creature, like Frankenstein monster.
Also, the head of the proud boys is Canadian, Latino. [both laugh]
Yeah. So like there's this interesting thing, because white nationalism in general, I mean, I stay up with things, really like I publicly turned my back on Trump in 2017 after his strike on Syria, because at that point, I knew he wasn't a non-interventionist. And if all of his if.
Like he claimed to be
Yeah, so if he's gonna lie about that he's gonna lie about anything. So a lot of white nationalists like I mean, Joe, Richard Spencer voted for Joe Biden, like not, unironically, there's a consensus, at least amongst the former alt right, from what I've seen, that the Democrats, you know, pushing for non racial issues such as universal basic income, universal health care, is the best way to help white people, because white people will also get those things, versus we get absolutely nothing with the Republicans. That's not to say that that's what the accelerationists are doing. And then you've got this, what we call the American nationalist, or the Civic nationalists, that are like the MAGA types. They could be dangerous. Like I think we have a whole lot more to worry about in this country. From like one of the local Georgia 3% militias is multiracial. They run like a Vice documentary, and like their leader is relatively unhinged from every public thing I've seen. I don't think we have really to worry about like the white nationalist movement in general, I think the patriot movement is far more dangerous. And like, you look at Timothy McVeigh with Oklahoma City, like he flirted with white nationalism. But he was deep into the militia subculture. I think the militias because the thing about a lot of white nationalists is, they acknowledge that America is a non viable entity, that this is an empire that's going to collapse in some way, shape or form. And, you know, an ethnostate or a homeland could be created out of that. The whole like, we're going to fist fight the federal government ended up with everyone being arrested in the 80s and 90s. And the skinhead subculture doesn't exist anymore, for the most part. So most people are a little brainier, and are kind of just waiting for the collapse, in a lot of ways. But the Patriots, like listening to Kelly Loeffler's ads and stuff, were like "We must stop socialism or the Republic is going to die."
Right?
They believe that the election was stolen, the Biden administration is totally illegitimate, their voices aren't being heard, because the votes aren't being counted. And like, communism, but not real communism, like Ronald Reagan, 1980s, hide under your desk, the spooky communism that America teaches us about, like having to eat your dog because there's no food or something is coming. So honestly, I think in terms of looking forward, for the foreseeable future, the biggest danger is is the patriot movement. And conservatives, honestly.
Yeah. And Kelly Loeffler. And her, the other wing nut in Georgia there they spent half a billion dollars on their, I think it was on their campaigning. And that's uh, I can only imagine how much TV advertising that bought for folks to be listened to. The last question, Matthew, as you just got exposed for having been in DC when you weren't in DC on a bunch of very major national networks in the past couple days. And you're expecting possibly that if you're recognized at work, you may get fired tomorrow. What would you say to your boss, if your boss actually was interested in communication?
Well, I mean, what I'd say to my boss is, you know, am I a good worker? You know, are the things I've been accused of? Did I do them? No, of course, the history aspect comes up. And I'd say, well, are my beliefs different now? And the answer is, yes. Unfortunately, I live in a right to work state, where like when our local. uh Volkswagen tried to unionize for the second time, last year, a year before that, or something like that. And the governor came to denounce it. And the company flew all these people in from Germany and stuff like that, which is ironic, of course, that Volkswagen prides itself as having good union jobs for everyone around the world, especially in Germany. But they set up a plant here in Tennessee. So they could use you know, poor, desperate labor and pay far smaller wages than they do anywhere else in the world. That's neither here nor there. Our governor, of course, hates the idea of unions. You know, there are billboards everywhere radio ads, and all sorts of stuff. And we don't have any worker protections, in effect, in this state. So what I'd like to say is, please don't fire me because I have kids and a wife and bills to pay. But what I'll probably say is, you know, here's my key card, because there's no recourse and that's the gutting of the labor laws, like in a lot of ways. Appalachia has become a place for companies, have started build plants and they have a car plant in South Carolina. They built kind of recently, one in Alabama and other manufacturing around, because we have piss poor labor laws, we have no unions. Actually a funny story. So two years ago, I wanted to see what a local Democratic Party's organization was, I was living in a rural county, near Cleveland, Tennessee. And they don't even have enough people to man all of the officer positions for that, they were mandated by their bylaws. Like there was no Democratic Party, it doesn't exist. And if there's a Democratic Party, there sure isn't going to be like, far left organization. So like, I mean, basically, we have no recourse of any kind. So you know, it's if I lose my job tomorrow off something I didn't do, because I hit the media. It wouldn't be the first time. But it is a little tiresome is like, as I'm out of the movement, and I'm trying to do something different. And I'm trying to build connections and bridges with with members of my community outside of what I've done for the last 10 years. It's hard to do.
By your community, you mean your community geographically in the area, where you live?
Yeah.
And just for the record, you would describe yourself explicitly as anti-racist.
Yeah, yeah. Because racism, when you understand it, is the dislike or hatred of other people for how they were born and things like that. Like, I feel like I can have an affinity for my culture, my heritage and stuff like that. But in terms of disliking or mistreating or having a lack of solidarity with people of other races or religions. Yeah, I by that definition, yeah, I'm anti-racist.
Just, I mean, I know I described you as that before [both laughing], I just wanted to get it out of the horse's mouth. Matthew, thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I'd really like to talk another two hours, but I think nobody's gonna want to listen to more than two hours
But I appreciate it, David, and thank you, just for the impact you've had on me like for my entire not even adult life but longer than that. The work that your music does, trust me, there were a lot of fascists who traveled in my car that listened to your music for hours upon hours, going from rally to rally and they were forced to because it was my car. Damn it.
What did they think of it, though. I mean, what did they think of it? They're these songs that they might have imagined a lot of songs that they wouldn't be offended by. I might learn things about history and whatever else, but then, wouldn't there be other songs that they'd find terribly offensive?
Yeah but it was my car and I was the boss, so they had to listen to it.
Do you remember? Do you remember any particular songs they liked and didn't like in particular, on the extreme ends of like or dislike?
Sure. Well, I can think of one that had a strong emotional impact on guys who were, because we used to drive I had a Toyota Corolla. That
me too.
Yeah. It hit 300,000 miles and the odometer broke.
It's been you know, it's ready to go another 100,000
It kept rolling. I drove that thing from coast to coast, north or south too because I could never afford to fly. It was just driving to rallies and sleeping in our car. It was horrible. But in terms of one that I can really think of, that had like an emotional positive impact was Jenin. Because like that song is haunting. And another one that could have had a positive impact was Falluja because, from especially from a patriotic perspective, like if you're a nationalist, the idea of Iraqis shooting at Blackhawks and to defend their land, right, like the song. Like, when you put it in that perspective, like, yeah, I would do the same thing. And then like, oh, man, the war in Iraq is bullshit [laughs]. The one I could think that they would hate the most is Henry Ford is a Fascist, but that's just such a such a fun peppy song. You know, you can't cut it out [laughs] classic, you know, and like, and that was the thing and most of those guys like I can think of are out of the movement in one way or another. And there's a lot of folks. I guess it's like a final message. Like, there's a lot of folks that have a lot of political experience, like people who are watching, like, maybe you threw things at us, like maybe we said not nice things to you or whatever, over the years. But there's a lot of people that have come to the same realization that like, we're in this together. And we're waiting to be allowed to be a part of something. Like I don't, expect any one of your viewers to trust me, or to like me, but I want the opportunity to do good work, because anyone can say anything. But actions speak far louder than words. Like I can say all day, I believe this or I want to do this. But like for me, I've spent the last year not having the opportunity really, to get involved in some capacity. To prove that this is where I stand, and this is what I believe in, and this is the future, I want to build for my two children. And there's a lot of people like me that were involved in some capacity in the far right, like the turnover rate, my experience is 18 months, that if true believers stay longer, but the average person comes in with a year and a half will find their way out for one reason or another. There's a lot of us out there,
Which doesn't mean that they want to necessarily go join Antifa and start attacking anybody they see who looks like a member of the far-right. And not wanting to join Antifa is not, doesn't mean you're a fascist, right? [both laugh]
I mean, just, it's not one or the other. So
But it's hard to kind of, so then how is it that you can actually have some level of acceptance as somebody who leaves a movement? I mean, we hear about people who have fascist tattoos that they want to get removed. And that's like, I mean, but like, what, which is okay, that's a physical manifestation of, okay, I understand this. This is a nice story. And it's always nice to interview and good tattoo artists they're often colorful people. But this is not. I mean, are there other? What, there's no process here? Right. I mean, and then when you express remorse for having had some regrettable views, or for having done regrettable things, at what point is it? Do people take you seriously and then of course, once you are leaving the movement and trying to do something productive and realizing it very clearly, articulately, you know, you understand what you're doing. This is not just random, you're not like Mr. Magoo wandering around [both laugh]. Like, Oh, here's another. Let's see, let's join the Marxist Leninist, you know, there's one. Oh, yeah, he looks nice. You know, I mean, this is a well thought out process. But like, yeah, at what point does it become something that people can, I don't know. Other than,
Well, I'll say this. I have, the only thing I have been able to do successfully since leaving the movement is double the amount of death threats I've gotten. So that's been.
Oh, so now you get death threats from the right and the left right. Oh, excellent.
Because leftists say you're still a cryptofascist, and being a Marxist Leninist, you're a tankie. You're a Stalinist.
Oh yeah, yeah. Right.
So you need to crush those people. So they're still mad. But on the other side, I'm a race traitor that needs to be hung on the day of the rope, for my betrayal of Aryan virtue and whatnot, and so forth. So I have successfully doubled the amount of hate mail.
Excellent, well done
Which is great. But I do hope, for anyone watching and things like that. And, you know, I want us to stay in touch. I'd like to find and folks that I've, I've helped and through their own process have gotten out, I want to find a way to be able to engage in a working class movement to advance the betterment of all of us. So if anyone wants, they can drop me a line, you know, my phone numbers and email have been doxxed for like 10 years, so I refuse to change them [laughs].
Easy to find
Easy to find.
I have gotten so many well, death threats online. But then in terms of the harassing phone calls, there's this one lunatic who calls me and yells at me about not believing that 911 was an inside job and or at least not believing that Cheney lined the buildings with explosives. And I certainly believe that the US helped form and fund Al-Qaeda that's another question [both laugh] but this guy only calls up to yell at me during business hours.
Classic
You of course, you can turn your phone off but I never even have to. I mean, I hope this isn't gonna encourage too many people to call me in the middle of the night. [laughs] When people call you up do they do it during business hours or at all random hours or does that not happen too much?
All random hours. I will say my favorite calls are, I've had this like two or three times where anti-fascists like after a rally are together and celebrating and inebrieated call me up and leave me a nice voicemail. Those are always the fun ones. The people that are like, I'm gonna murder your family. You fascist blankety blankety blank not so nice. Or the other one now. I'm going to kill your family you Anti-Fascist blankety blank [laughs] but it's it's fine like I don't knock on wood but no one's killed me yet
Or your family but they actually do talk about that.
Yeah
Not just killing you but your family because what they're being raised by somebody bad so they must be turning out to be bad so let's see if we can kill them first now.
Little fascist grew up to be big fascist. I actually had for Valentine's Day a canned cut out card now I'll be quiet after a sec of skull and crossbones with glitter. That was a definite threat, which I appreciate the artistic ingenuity for it, but it was mailed to my front door. And like I put it on my table and my son, who was like three at the time, picked it up. He was like, "Dad, someone sent us something". And it's like, yeah, and I went to the local cops. And they were like, well, I think it's the mail, that's a federal issue. And I was like, Okay, well, it's not gonna go anywhere. You know, after you report the first couple death threats and nothing happens. You just kind of, it goes with the territory. But you know, it's hard. It's exhausting. Like, I became an alcoholic, because of it, but luckily, I got into AA two and a half years ago, and it saved my life. But it's hard. But anyway, hopefully, we can all make friends and carry on together, because we're all locked in this sinking ship. And all of us have to get off or none of us get off like, sorry.
That's how it is. We actually are all in the same planet together, whether or not we're in any other thing together. Yeah.
Yes, sir.
It's been a great pleasure talking to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Solidarity.
Solidarity.[both laugh] I'll do a little outro, I'll be back in a minute.
And thanks for tuning into this conversation with Matthew Heimbach, founder of the Traditionalist Workers Party and ex white nationalist and we will see you again soon. Remember, mutual aid will get us through, don't pay the rent, trust your neighbors. Bye for now.