You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 227. Welcome to our first episode of 2024. In celebration of new beginnings, we're kicking off the year with a curation of the best launch tips from our past guests. In this RoundUp episode, you'll hear eight underrated and unique gems to help you launch smarter and create your most successful launch yet. I'll introduce each soundbite with the name of the guest and the original episode number and title it was pulled from in case you want to go back and listen to the full conversation. All referenced episodes will also be conveniently linked for you below in the show notes.
Welcome to cubicle to CEO, the podcast where we ask successful founders and CEOs the business questions you can't google. I'm your host, Ellen Yin. Every Monday go behind the business in a case study style interview with the leading entrepreneur who shares one specific growth strategy they've tested in their own business, exactly how they implemented it, and what the results and revenue were. You'll also hear financially transparent insights from my own journey bootstrapping our media company from a $300 freelance project into millions in revenue.
Tip number one is from Amy Porterfield episode 182. Exclusive tell all: Amy Porterfield analyzes her $7.5 million dollar launch and shares detailed pre launch strategy.
This was not the first time I pre launched, I've been pre launching for many, many years, I think it literally is the one necessity of every digital course launch, or launch of anything. I call it priming the pump, getting people ready, getting them more engaged, getting them alert. A pre launch is, hey, something amazing is coming. And I'm going to get you ready for it. And the value of a pre launch is to walk people across an invisible bridge. So what I mean by that is if you start marketing, and my pre launch was six weeks, six weeks before I ever sold my course, I'm walking people over an invisible bridge, and the invisible bridge is essentially this. What do they need to know be aware of understand before they're ever ready to buy from me. So like if you're going to create a digital course you need to have a good digital course idea before you're ever ready to spend money with me because you're not going to buy my program if you don't have a good idea first. So there's things I need to help them understand or believe or start to ideate before they're ever ready to buy. That's the power of a pre launch. And I think it could help anybody launching anything online.
Tip number two is from Holly Haynes episode 216. Create your own holiday to boost sales, this anti-Black Friday campaign made $70,000 Without social media.
Which brings us right into the case study which I am just so intrigued by this concept of anti-Black Friday. So we're gonna kind of start big picture Holly and then we're gonna, you know, get into the nitty gritty but big picture. Where was this idea for anti-Black Friday sparked? Meaning, if you're looking at holiday sales as a whole? Had you previously participated in Black Friday or Cyber Monday sales before? And was your idea to start your own holiday so to speak, the outcome of not seeing the results you wanted from participating in a previous Black Friday sales? Or was it the opposite where Black Friday sales were incredible for your business? And therefore you thought, Okay, let me take it a step further and actually create my own holiday around it.
So for me personally, I mean, if you think about the story that I just told, having time with my family and creating free time was really like the basis of my business. Like I didn't want to be tied to someone else's schedule. And so early on in my business, I did dabble in Black Friday sales, because I just thought, well, that's what everyone's doing. Right? Like everyone, I mean, you get a million emails in one day, like buy this, do this, do that. And I did it. And I just remember it was like Thanksgiving, Eve or whatever. And I was so freakin stressed out. I was like, oh my god, who's going to read this? Are they going to purchase this, like what's going to happen? And I just that feeling that I had was like, This is not how I want to run my business. I want to come up with a way where I can do it on my own terms. Maybe it is Black Friday, but it's definitely not me sitting in front of my computer like I would so much rather be eating leftovers and watching football.
So for me, I think you know, sometimes you have to go through it to realize that it's not for you. But I also think kind of what we talked about the beginning is you don't have to do it the way that everyone else does. And one of the examples that I always give is Amazon Prime Day, which is in July. I think they have another one coming in October now and basically Amazon creates their own Holiday because it's a downtime in their sales cycle. And so I was like, Well, why can't I do that? Yes, it's a great time. November typically is a great time for sales. But it doesn't have to be that Friday. And then I started to dig into the statistics a little bit more. And I was like, why am I competing with all of these big brands? Like, I'm not a big brand? I'm not, you know, I don't have millions of followers. So why am I trying to compete with all those other people, if I could just do it the week before, or the week after it works for my schedule, and I think it actually works for my clients schedule as well.
Tip number three is from Jaclyn Johnson, Episode 161. Jaclyn Johnson sold out a 1500 person Create and Cultivate event that made seven figures with zero ads.
Let's talk about the launch timeline. Because I know for myself, like as someone who's newer to producing live events, even for a 50 person event, there's so much planning that goes into, you know, the before. So for your February 2020 event, how far out did you guys start promoting this conference?
Yeah, so we would book the venue's out a year in advance, like typically a year in advance, mostly because venues of that size are very, like hard to find. And then oftentimes, they're booked up, whether it's weddings, or concerts, or whatever it might be. So we got into the pattern of doing it a year in advance, we would start marketing the event six months in advance. So so long lead time leading into an event. But the way I sort of think about it is it really has to be this repetitious thing that you're getting out in the world. One thing that we were really good about doing was we would launch an event right after an event.
So basically, our launch strategy was always tied to the end of one event. So the reason for that was, you will never had the most amount of eyeballs on your site than during an event day. Because we were notorious for kind of going viral on an Instagram, all the images, who was there all your favorite creators, whatever. And if you weren't familiar with the company, you're like, what is that, so you'd go on the tag thing, you'd click on the link. And then immediately there was something to sell you on an event because you clearly had missed the other event, right? So it's like you are having FOMO about the existing event. And then we're launching this future event. So that's kind of how we did our launch strategy was always this like six months here. And sometimes we'd have multiple event launches going at once. But that was typically the timeline we would use.
That's so smart. So you're riding the wave of momentum from the in person event to kind of push that trajectory out to that, you know, upcoming event.
Tip number four is from Dana Snyder, Episode 153. Copy the $800 podcast launch plan that debuted her show at number 29 on the marketing charts.
Walk us through if you as as much as you can remember, what is the week by week or day by day play of exactly what you rolled out to to make this debut possible?
Yeah, I would say so I wanted to do the theme of the birthday party. So that was the first thing. And I put together a couple unique facets. So I wanted to ask my email, and also my email list at the time, I think was around 5000. Now I'm at 7000. Just over. So again, this was in March. So I asked my email list to give me their addresses through Postable. Totally free tool. And I wanted to do a snail mail, direct mail piece, which was so not me for for digital marketing. So it was a bit of that surprise and delight factor to get something in the mail from me. And so I pitched this tool that I had heard of called handwritten. And if anybody wants to know this is not I did not get any kickback from this. But if you use code 'dana' D A N A, it'll give you two free credits for card. So just a freebie. So they're amazing, because basically handwritten is you can design the front and the back of this card that goes out. But it looks like it's written with an actual pen on a machine and you can pick the handwriting you want.
So on the front, I designed this invite, essentially. So alongside with the launch, I did a zoom event. And I had a QR code on the front of the card that people could register for the Zoom birthday party. And what I said was during the virtual birthday party, I would do like a live q&a. Handwritten got to come on board. They gave me a bunch of free credits to send out all of these cards to people. And I was going to do prizes. So for anyone who left a review on the 16th specifically If I would give five winners different prizes, essentially, I called them birthday presents. So like I was giving to them on my birthday, and it was five of my favorite things. So it was very like, useful. I know I did a planner. I think I did a candle. I think I did like bath bombs. I think I did a book and something else. So it was really fun items.
And, so the handwritten I had a website designer craft a new website page, for me, that became the home base. And I think that's really important that you make it very simple for people to be able to find exactly what they're looking for when it comes to your show, and have it look appealing. And that was a next big portion. I think everybody's seen, I think you made me commented on it in our boxer my suit that I wore. So my brand colors are like a rusty like yellowy orange, blue. And like, rusty red, I don't know how to describe it, orange. And so I found this balm suit for 40 bucks.
By the way, I mean, if you haven't seen the pictures, just go to her Instagram, it'll go people look around, I loved that photo shoot, it was so you, you could you could just feel your energy radiates off the screen,
I had two outfit changes. We had, I think we had two hours, it was so fast. And we were just trying to get a bunch of different shots. And what we did was because the time was so limited, we created a shot list ahead of time, we looked at my website of how it was going to be designed and knew okay, we needed certain vertical images, certain horizontal images, I would need some for Instagram, some for emails, just thinking some for literally the card that I was sending out. Right, that's now mailpiece. So we really thought about, okay, what am I doing in this shot? What props might I need in this shot? And so it's just I was thinking about all the ways that would really personalize it. And I think that content, oh my god, Ellen has gone so far. So far, I use it for so many pieces of content.
So yeah, I was planning the photoshoot, getting out the snail mail piece, I also created and with that photoshoot content, I created Instagram story graphics for friends of mine in the industry to send out on my behalf. And I also did IG posts and a LinkedIn graphic, all of them with coffee, copy and links. And I sent that to them too. Like would you share this with your audience. So did a little bit of that. I changed all of my headers on Facebook and LinkedIn. Those are my two main places. I'm not really on Twitter very much. So I changed all of my headers to showcase that the podcast was launching, I had a header on my website that my practice is launching. And I did tease my trailer, I believe it was a week in advance. So just to let people know, hey, this is what the show is going to be about. This is when it's coming out. Go ahead and subscribe now. So I did tease that in advance. And then I had three episodes drop the day of on the 16th
It's such a comprehensive strategy, I think that you really employ here because you use word of mouth traffic right from from existing relationships from friends and peers who wanted to support your launch. You also did the pattern interrupt like you mentioned your digital marketer, but you sent snail mail. And what a lovely surprise it is to receive anything tangible in the mail from someone who you may only have an online relationship with is always such a delight and very unexpected and very rare. And so I love those
people are taking photos of that and sharing it on their accounts to be like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool.
Tip number five is from Kyrsten Rodan Episode 217, the line by line email that made $24,000 from a list of 500 subscribers.
You are a huge believer in emailing your list more than once a day. And so during this Open Cart window, I have to assume that you were emailing people multiple times a day. Is that true? And if so, what was the frequency and cadence of your volumes of send out during that seven day window?
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I was emailing today. Yes, I definitely believe in that. And you know, during the pre launch, it was like three to five emails a day. And then toward the end of the launch. I upped the cadence to six to 10 Just depends on running locally. Yeah, six to 10 emails a day. Yes, yes. And it Is every time it works every time it just gets the conversions get higher and higher. So I just the cadence gets higher and higher email cell, right. And so for me, that's been the highest amount. Now I will say, I'm an email girl, right? Like, of course, but I have clients that don't necessarily match that frequency that make just as much as well. And so you also don't have to send 10 emails a day if you don't want to, but I like to.
Okay, I'm just again, I'm just so impressed with like your conviction in this particular arena. Because I know for most people hearing this three to five is probably like, more than they've ever even imagined sending to someone in a single day. And you're like, oh, no, that's my starting point. And so I want to dig into the minimum. I want to dig into the psychology a little bit, because I just I know our audience, and I know that the fear of being annoying, right? I know, that's like the number one thing that holds people back from upping their own frequency to their list. So how do you combat that, like during this launch, when you started at minimum, three to five emails a day and then ramped up to six to 10? How were you mentally talking yourself through? Okay, I got to show up confidently. I'm not being annoying. And then did you notice on the data side, a large number of unsubscribes? Did it hold pretty steady? Like, just curious what your experience around this was?
Such good questions. So yeah, the first thing I say to myself and to others, when they're worried about being annoying, is well just write better emails then, right? Like, if you're being you're annoying your audience, you're just not writing great emails, right? Because your audience isn't annoyed when you're writing really high quality emails, right? Even when you're selling every email, if they are high quality, and I define high quality as specific to the person reading them, right? Like the person man says, Oh, my goodness, this person gets it. They know what I'm dealing with. And they can help me that's quality. And so that's the first thing is whenever I'm worried about being annoying, usually I go to do I like my emails that I'm writing, because if I liked my emails, I wouldn't be worried about that.
So starting there, and in terms of, you know, coaching myself through it, from a mindset standpoint, I absolutely have gotten the emails of you send too many emails, you look desperate, you look crazy. You look all these different things. And what's helped me to get through that is Tell my bank account, like, tell my bank, I'm such a math person. I'm like the math, I don't know what else to say. Like the evidence is in the bank account, right? And so, for me, what helps my mindset is reminding myself that people are buying from it. And so clearly, it's working. So why am I questioning myself right? Now, when it comes to unsubscribes, because I focus on quality emails, I have actually an extremely low unsubscribe rate. And I cannot tell you how many people unsubscribe from my list but still join my program. I can't tell you how many because most people are worried about losing leads, like that's the concern. But so many people that have unsubscribed, were just like, honestly, I just don't want all the emails I'm just gonna join. Right? But also, there's so many people that have unsubscribed because they're like, it's just not relevant for me right now. But then they come back, I can't tell you how many people have come back.
And so I don't, I don't like have this tight grip on my subscribers. And because of that, I think that honestly helps me to keep writing better emails, which reduces the unsubscribes naturally, but also my list always evens itself out with that I have sent as many as 10 emails a day, and I've only gotten like 10 on subscribes and an entire launch that's very low for sending emails a day. Right? Sure. Yeah. And even when I've lost more, you know, in the let's say, 20s or 30s. Still, every time it's not impacted my income. And so for me, it's not something that I try to avoid. It's not something that I like, gotta make sure I avoid unsubscribes if anything, trying to avoid it keeps me from hitting my goal because then I send less emails, then I convert less. So that's like my mindset.
Tip number six is from Dielle Charon, Episode 220. The sales call structure that converts at 100%. Listen for the play by play.
How it works is they fill out an application, it auto like corrects or auto decides if they qualify based off of their just income requirements. We have a $50,000 income requirement. So if they hit that then they say okay, great. You've been approved. Do you need a link to just sign up or would you like a sales call? All. And so the eight that chose that they didn't need it. They didn't need it at all. And so we also are real time looking at all the applications and some applications, we've stopped to be like, Oh, okay, they meet the income requirement, but something's a little off here. And we'll tell them, hey Dielle really wants to speak with you. So my team and I are watching the applications in real time just to catch any red flags. But other than that, it's an automatic process. And they can decide,
okay, that's really helpful. And then the income qualifier is that the only I guess, qualifier before they reach the option of being able to book a sales call, or is the sales call link, the booking link, something that you kind of have even more I guess, control or intentionality over who gets to book a sales call,
I'm open to do sales calls with anyone. If people are like, Hey, we have a $50,000 income requirement. Hey, I'm not 42. And I'll call this me right, like, let's talk let's book a sales call. So in those instances, it's helpful. But no, I don't have any other qualifiers on the sales call for him to kick people out. No.
Okay, great. Thank you for clarifying. I want you to actually walk us through the magic of your sales call. So like, imagine that you're taking me and our listeners with you like where that person sitting opposite you on a zoom screen. Walk us through the full call from like, how you started to what questions you asked to how you might address certain common challenges or questions that come up. I'd love to hear your take on the sales call.
Let's do it. Let's do it. So first thing I do is open up the Zoom Room with a smile. I can't tell you how many sales calls I've been on where the person is like, be grudgingly there are like mad that they're there or like annoyed, right? They're kind of like, Hey, how are you? Alright, let's dive in versus greet the client with a smile. And just you want to give some pleasantries back and forth, you want to do a little bit of connection, I typically ask, Where are you from? How'd you find me. And they're typically so excited to talk to me like, Oh, my God, Dielle. I'm so excited. I love your content. I love your podcast. And we do a little bit of back and forth there. From there. And I think this is really important, I set the tone of the call. So a lot of things when it comes to sales call is just energy and leadership, right? Not control leadership.
So I say awesome. So glad that you're here. Let me run down everything we're going to do today. So I'm going to ask you a ton of questions about your business, I want to get a good picture. And then I'm going to put together a specific plan on how I think I can help you. And then I'll tell you more about the offer. And we'll talk about the price. And if it's a good fit. What are your thoughts. So up front within the first two minutes, they know that this is not a free call, they know that this is a call where we're going to talk about the program and I'm not offering free coaching. And that we're going to see and do a diagnostic on if we can help you and we're going to talk about money and talk about the offer. So when you give all of that upfront, you minimize their anxiety, you let them know exactly what's going to happen step by step. And you can do each phases of what I just shared freely because the client knows about it. I think transparency, this conversation of transparency is so important. And we can get better conversions if we just tell people what to expect, right? And we can just walk people through that. And so that's how I start my calls. And then they say Great, that sounds amazing. I say awesome.
So I do something I call triage. And so triaging is just like how you go to urgent care or the doctor. So you necessarily don't want to think about it like the doctor, you want to think about it like the nurse who takes your vitals before you go see the doctor. So they're like, Okay, what are your symptoms? What's going on? Do you have this problem? Do you have that problem, and you want to triage the client, that's what I call it, you want to get very, very specific on what their problems is. So one of my philosophies, too, is no scripts. Scripts are one of the main things that will ruin your sales calls. Because you're so worried about checking off the boxes, so you lose the client. So I'll give an example. Say I'm on a sales call for six figure liberation, and we're talking about somebody's launch, right? They're like, Oh, my God, oh, I got two people on my launch. I wanted 10. I'm not then going to jump to Okay, well, then how's your social media doing? I'm going to say, Okay, why do you think you only got two people? What was your webinar title? What actually happened in the launch? Did you do sales calls? Oh, you hate sales calls? Tell me why. Right. I'm going to triage and I call it stay with the client. Follow my step by step script. I'm going to get very specific and granular with what the client is experiencing.
Once I have those problems of also going to ask what is their dream situation? And I want to get very detailed too. So they're like I want to make $100,000 I'll ask them why Do you want to make $100,000? And what way? Do you want to make that money? How much do you want to work? Right? Why is this important to you? I'm gonna get very specific and granular with what their dreams are. And so I'll keep emphasizing this no scripts for the love of God, no scripts, you want to stay as custom. And as tailored to the client as possible during the triage stage. Another way that I teach it is think about like the robo calls that we get, or if we're at the bank teller, and we're like, speak with a representative speak with a representative
Literally me screaming into the phone. Yeah
Literally, right? They have a script, do they have those contrived things where you're like, none of those options are me. That's what happens when we use sales scripts, we're just like the bank teller. And we're just like the robo calls. And so it's so important to like, throw everything out of the window and stay specifically with the client. So that's step one is triage.
Then we go to treatment plan. So the treatment plan, we're thinking about Doctor helping profession, words, social work words, the treatment plan is just three things you're going to help the client with, inserting the treatment plan will be so helpful, what I see a lot of people do with their sales calls, is they will literally just say, Okay, well, I think I can help you. Here's my program. Versus if you put a treatment plan in, it's like, oh, we're going to get specific with this, we're going to help you with this, we're going to help you with that. And we're going to help you with this. One, two, and three, and getting very, very specific and granular was what those things are, we're going to help you make $100,000, while also taking care of your baby. And also while your husband's in medical school by putting you on a 10 hour work week schedule, where you will also be able to include your self care days. Right? Does everyone see like how specific that is? Right?
And then people ask me, Well, how do I get that specific? It depends on your triage. Right? How specific you get on your triage is how specific you'll get in your treatment plan. And then once the client loves a treatment plan, you will then get into the nitty gritty details of the offer. But by then they're sold, They're busting out of the seams ready to work with you. You like solve their problem, you understood them deeply, you really like showed that you cared about them. And also you didn't talk about you. You didn't talk about your framework, you didn't talk about how fancy you are and how many things you've been able to do. And you didn't talk about anything else other than them. They already know you. They already have seen what you have done. They've already have seen your story they already know you. And if they have questions, so ask, but you want to make that sales call about them. Everything about them. I don't tell them my fancy Disney World launch process. I don't tell them, you know, I have this special podcast formula for them. I don't say anything that they haven't said. So, to recap, triage treatment plan, tell the offer.
Tip number seven is from Anita Siek episode 202. Save a launch that's flopping in the final 48 hours.
Another one that we really spoke to were the bonuses. So there was a last minute bonus that I added in the last 20 I think last 24 hours. And I think so often we choose bonuses based on Oh, I'm gonna add some value. And this looks nice. I'm gonna I've already got a PDF. So I'm gonna share this. But I think again, if you can choose a bonus strategically, that will help you combat the objection as well, you should always choose a bonus to combat an objection. So someone is like, how am I going to make money by doing this, if they're driven by that, if you can create something that is related to I don't know, sales scripts to help you make ABC or these are the templates that we had. So we ended up going with templates, our audience love templates. And if you can choose a bonus to combat an objection, oh, Chef's kiss. So yeah, that was another email that we did, which was a new bonus that we added in.
You shared one of my favorite tips. Anita, by the way, which I'm so glad you brought this up because I think a lot of people don't understand that about objection or not objections about bonuses. Yeah, exactly. And I'm so so happy that you laid it out like that for our listeners. Because to your point, a lot of people especially maybe people who haven't been in the course world for a long time, they assume that bonuses are really just you know, amplifying the volume or
value stacking, like, exactly is a cheat sheet. Here's a PDF. Yeah, exactly.
Which, of course it can accomplish that goal too. But I think, you know, to your point what makes a bonus truly effective in getting people to make that decision is Yeah, removing all of the obstacles in their way right saying, Oh, I have this obstacle but Anita made it so convenient for me to essentially make that obstacle no longer relevant that there's now nothing standing On my way of saying yes and jumping in.
And finally, Tip number eight is from Gloria Chou, Episode 185. Bye bro marketing, she made $122,000 In her last launch by rejecting these popular tactics.
I think one thing that we're afraid to do as entrepreneurs is to admit that we have something else that could be lacking and to be to work on. And so it took me forever Ellen to have like a feedback loop where if people didn't buy, it was like, why didn't you buy? Right? And like, actually tell me and, and that was just me closing myself off to growth, right? Because that was my ego. So after this, this launch that went really well, I actually got on the calls with a couple of people just sit through kind of like, you know, where are the gaps in the messaging? Or what what is going on, and these people, you know, they were not going to buy. And it was okay, because that was so much information that allowed me to understand my audience more, because remember, the whole point is not to convert everyone, its how can I get my messaging even more dialed in? So the hell no people can take way like 10 steps back and really get the hell yes people in there. So in opening myself up to feedback, both in calls, emails, surveys, you know, after that, you just, it's a goldmine of information. So I encourage everyone out there to put a feedback survey everywhere you can, in your program, in your emails, even do a contest, just the more information you can get, the better.
That's so smart. So you had these calls with people who didn't buy to tell you why they didn't buy. And then you're also implementing, like you said, these forms and surveys to your actual students who did buy on their experience as they're going through? What are some just kind of as like a bonus question here? What are some powerful questions that you're asking on the surveys or forums that you are seeing really insightful responses from?
Well, one of the things I think is really hard for people as entrepreneurs is when people ask for refunds, right? It's like, ouch. So it hurts, doesn't feel great, but that's actually probably the best feedback you're ever gonna get. Because it's like, what is it about this program that you want to get a refund, right, we don't ever want to admit that we have refunds, but everyone gets refunds, right? In order for me to understand where the gaps were, I really, really wanted to just basically go and call people who asked for a refund, some of them didn't want to get on the phone, you know, they're just like this, not for me.
But I got so much information that allowed me to have way better process for onboarding because one of the things about this Ellen is like, we're not expert course creators. You know, I'm not like a course creator magician with like, all the nice templates, I just created this based off of what I knew. So from a UX point of view, from like, a customer process point of view, I knew I was lacking, right? Like, where does a journey start? So by having them telling me like, you know, this wasn't as clear or, you know, like, I would have preferred onboarding this way. We're like redoing the entire onboarding process, where we tell them, it's kind of a pick your adventure, where like, they get in, and they pick what industry they're in, and their goals. And then we direct him to the modules because there's so much in there, right? I mean, there's gifts, guys, there's podcasts, there's product, guys, there's entrepreneur feature. So I think having that feedback is what allowed me to completely revamp my onboarding.
That's so valuable. I totally agree with you that, you know, in the same way that a lot of business owners may not be great salespeople may not be great marketers to begin with, right? Because their interest or their area of expertise is in something entirely different. Same thing. I like that you pointed out that just because you're a subject matter expert. So like for you, you are obviously brilliant with public relations, that doesn't necessarily make you brilliant at user experience in courses. And so that's a really great delineation, I'm glad you pulled that piece out, and how you're actively working to improve that.
And I do want to shout out by the way, for all those listening Gloria's refund rate, she was so vulnerable and generous in sharing this information. But in the February launch, it was 10%. And in October, it dropped by nearly half because of some of those, you know, changes that you implemented. So I just want to congratulate you for and like the fact that you listen to that feedback, took it with grace and actually implemented in our seeing real data driven points showing that you're having success with that. That's huge. That's a lesson I think we could all take a page out of your book for
Thank you sometimes, you know, you talk about like the wound, right. And you want to just keep putting a bandaid on there. And we don't want to talk to people who got refunds because it's not like a happy thing. It's like yeah, you got a refund. So a lot of times we just completely ignore that audience. We don't take them off from you know, we put them in the closet, but by literally opening up that wound and putting disinfectant on it and like asking them some things didn't feel great, right? Because it's like this, my course is perfect. What do you mean right now? So by doing that and subjecting myself to criticism has really really helped me along.
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